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BS: Spain elects new Premier

GUEST,Peace to all people 15 Mar 04 - 05:35 AM
Ellenpoly 15 Mar 04 - 06:51 AM
freda underhill 15 Mar 04 - 06:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 04 - 06:58 AM
greg stephens 15 Mar 04 - 07:42 AM
Teribus 15 Mar 04 - 08:03 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 04 - 10:43 AM
Barry Finn 15 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM
ard mhacha 15 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 04 - 03:11 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM
Jim McCallan 15 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM
Bobert 15 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Jim McCallan 15 Mar 04 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM
freda underhill 15 Mar 04 - 08:36 PM
Shanghaiceltic 15 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM
freda underhill 15 Mar 04 - 08:50 PM
freda underhill 15 Mar 04 - 09:30 PM
Bobert 15 Mar 04 - 09:40 PM
Jim McCallan 15 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 15 Mar 04 - 10:16 PM
Deckman 15 Mar 04 - 10:39 PM
freda underhill 15 Mar 04 - 11:22 PM
Jim McCallan 16 Mar 04 - 01:44 AM
GUEST,kiwi guest 16 Mar 04 - 03:13 AM
Shanghaiceltic 16 Mar 04 - 03:38 AM
Teribus 16 Mar 04 - 04:18 AM
GUEST 16 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 04 - 11:06 AM
GUEST 16 Mar 04 - 12:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM
GUEST 16 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM
Alex.S 16 Mar 04 - 10:48 PM
GUEST,Boab 17 Mar 04 - 04:34 AM
Ellenpoly 17 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 04 - 06:06 AM
Wolfgang 17 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM
DougR 17 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Larry K 17 Mar 04 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 17 Mar 04 - 03:53 PM
Strick 17 Mar 04 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 04 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,guest from NW 17 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Mar 04 - 08:30 PM
Alex.S 17 Mar 04 - 08:32 PM
ard mhacha 18 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 04 - 06:35 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 04 - 07:46 AM

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Subject: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,Peace to all people
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:35 AM

The Spanish people have shown by this election result that they will not be taken in by lying politicians.
That is the first brick out of the wall, look out Bush and Blair you are next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:51 AM

That the election results may have been directly related to the Madrid bombings is something to be pondered. A lot of people were and are angry with their governments for lying to them. Will this translate to other countries come their elections, and does it take killing even more people to open our eyes and get us out to vote? How horrific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:53 AM

and the new head of state elect has promised to withdraw the troops from Iraq


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:58 AM

Pedantic point - there isn't a new "head of state", Spain is a monarchy. "Head of government".


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:42 AM

So, the left want it to be Al Quaida so they assume it was. The right want it to be ETA so they assume it was. A handful of people in the middle are trying to find out who it actuallyy was, must be a lonely and thankless task.
   If this elction proves what the Guardian/BBC/psoeters to this thread assume, what did Winston Churchill losing the 1945 war elction prove? That the electorate felt it was wrong for the British fight Hitler? Pull, as they say, the other one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:03 AM

Right now freda underhill - Tell us under what conditions that Spain's new Prime Minister has "promised to withdraw the troops from Iraq".


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:43 AM

What seems to have been the crucial thing, if you believe what the pundits say - but how do they know these things anyway? - is that a lot of people, particularly first time voters, saw the government as trying to use the atrocity as a way of stampeding voters in their direction, by jumping to a conclusion that suited them, in advance of the facts. And that looked a pretty disgusting thing to do, in the circumstances.

I'd have thought that it would have been a much better thing to do to delay the elections for a week or so, to allow a period of mourning, and to make it possible for more of the facts to be sorted out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

The new Prime Minister promised to withdraw their troops from Iraq
as a campain promise he had made, weither it happens or not remains to be seen. 90% of Spain's citizens were against entering the war, the youth of that country were lied to & betrayed & took it to heart. I would imagine that future Spainish governments will remember to be very mindfull of the will of the people. I don't know if the same will happen here in the US, I tend to believe that part of our traditional dress includes blinders so we can be lead down a red rosey garden path & that's all we get to see or know so our experiences are all pleasant & everything is as it should be.

It seems to me that the British are more in tune with their surroundings than we are & like Spain, Blair will be gone. Here Bush may end up hanging out for another 4 yrs because a lot of the American public refuse to recognize when they've been broadsided & truth be told will rationalize what ever lies are the spin of the day. With such a short attention span, combined with a lack of long term memory we've allowed Viet Nam to happen all over again & will even consider the re-election of an administration that placed us in the middle of a world of shit.

Good on you Spain I hope you have set an example for other nations to follow. If you lie the people & refuse to follow their will, you will be gone.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

Good point McGrath, waiting until things settled down would have been better.
It is still an amazing turnaround by the Spanish electorate, if what we read is true, the economy was supposedly ok, employment figures were steady, and the result seemed a foregone conclusion for Anzar`s Party, but the immediate reaction of the ruling Party to point the finger at ETA, [or as Bush called them,E-T-A.] proved to be their downfall.
As the man says, the result of the Spanish election will give Blair and Bush some sleepless nights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM

Churchill lost the 1945 election because the war was won, and people knew they didn't need the bellicose old blighter any longer. They were tired of war, rationing, and the whole thing, and in the mood for a change. They were certainly NOT sending the message that it was wrong for the British to fight Hitler, and to suggest that they were is a completely specious argument concocted to defend an already weak position (in regards to the war in Iraq...a very different kind of war in just about every respect one could imagine).

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM

"Right now freda underhill - Tell us under what conditions that Spain's new Prime Minister has "promised to withdraw the troops from Iraq".

Teribus, the headline in today's New York Times is:

"Blow to Bush: An Ally in Spain Is Rejected by Antiwar Voters"

Some excerpts from the article:

"The Bush administration must now fight the perception, accurate or not, that acts of terror against America's allies can sway nations into rethinking the wisdom of standing too closely with Mr. Bush...

Only last week several senior members of the administration said they fully expected that his (Anzar) conservatives would emerge victorious. In fact, months ago a senior adviser to Mr. Bush predicted that should a terrorist attack occur in Europe, it would probably drive the Europeans closer to the United States and its approach to the campaign against terror, not away from it...

But it was lost on no one in Mr. Bush's inner circle that Mr. Zapatero rode to victory by denouncing Mr. Bush's approach to the world, and that he pledged to bring home Spain's 1,300 troops in Iraq in July...

Senior American diplomats were quick to note that even the Socialists had pledged to take part in peacekeeping in Iraq if the United Nations passed a resolution embracing the Iraqi transitional government, which is scheduled to take over from the Coalition Provisional Authority on June 30. Such a resolution seems highly likely."

At this point (in the wake of the terrorist attacks), even with a UN resolution, Mr. Zapatero may not be willing to keep Spanish troops on the ground in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:11 PM

The ex prime minister's name was AZNAR not ANZAR. Just because Bush mispronounced his name, doesn't mean was all have to copy him. Or are we all going to talk about the "nucular" threat from "the general" in Pakistan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM

Right. Aznar, Aznar, Aznar. Hamster. Parallelogram. Nuclear. February. Library. Statistics. Valeri Kharlamov.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

Colin Powell, on morning TV (USA) a few days ago, when asked about his views on what effect the bombings would have on the future of Spain's involvement, said that he would hope that Spain would continue their involvement in Iraq. The '... as part of a UN mandated force' at the end was stated so matter of factly, that one would have assumed this to have been the case all along.

It seems that the Bush administration saw the writing on the wall before the polls even opened in Spain.

I think the hasty jump to the ETA conclusion, showed the Spanish people that Aznar was willing to blame those which would have been more politically expedient to have been declared guilty; even to go so far as to suggest that Al Queada and ETA were somehow in cahoots, as the new evidence started turning up.

I made the observation in another thread that it seemed like a golden opportunity to slam ETA on the eve of the vote, and that if such were the case, then, one could have quite rightly accused the Spanish Government of blatant opportunism.

Good on them, I say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM

Another crack in the wall... I don't think the criminal act in Spain had much to do with the results of the election since, according even to the conservative US press, 90% of Spainards were against attacking Iraq.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:52 PM

Although opinion polls up to a week ago had forecast a Popular Party victory with Aznar claiming credit for a solid economy and greater clout for a country restored to the international mainstream.

I think it focused the vote, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM

And the bombs pushed up the vote, especially among the young - people voting as a kind of social solidarity. And voting in that spirit meant voting Socialist more often than not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:36 PM

phrased more politely, i would have answered that question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM

Scary thing this. Time a massive bombing in a country just about to go to the polls and you can influence the result.

That is how it will be seen by many terrorist organisations from now on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:50 PM

Spain to withdraw Iraq troops
From correspondents in Madrid
March 16, 2004
SPAIN'S prime minister-elect, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, vowed today to withdraw troops from Iraq and criticised US President George W Bush after Spanish voters ousted the government that dragged their country into the controversial war.

"The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster," Zapatero, 43, told Cadena Ser radio.

His Socialist Party dealt the conservative Popular Party (PP) of outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar a surprise defeat yesterday in general elections coloured by Thursday's bombings of crowded Madrid commuter trains that killed 200 people and wounded 1500.

An ongoing investigation into the attacks has found growing evidence they were carried out by Islamic extremists linked to al-Qaeda as punishment for Spain's help in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.



freda


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:30 PM

above post from the Australian, 8 hours ago, google australian news


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:40 PM

I disagree, Shanghaiceltic. What you seem to be responding to is what you are being served by your media and that is exactly what you are to parrot...

Facts and media don't usually get along too well...

Fact is that folks in Spain were more than just a little pissed off about their counrty supporting Bush. Like they were very pissed off. Now I hate polls but when you have like 90% pissed off people the incumbant is in deep trouble....

Yeah, the bombing had some effect but Aznar was on his way out the door either way......

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

Madrid bombing changed the election result
Up until last Thursday's devastating bombings in Madrid, which killed 200 and injured more than 1,500 people, opinion polls had clearly shown that the conservative Popular Party would win the election by a comfortable margin. However, the widespread belief that an al-Qaeda-linked terror group was behind the mass murder completely changed the closing dynamics of the election.
From this, and many other accounts.

I'm afraid Aznar's party was expected to win this election, Bobert, as the Spanish public was not generally expected to vote along Foreign Policy lines


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:16 PM

Shanghaiceltic has a very hot point no matter how it is analysed. How can terrorists NOT take note of the effect of this bombing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:39 PM

I expect that these kinds of events are going to increase worldwide. The message they want to be delivered is this: It is DANGEROUS to be a friend of President bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:22 PM

i think frank's right, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:44 AM

It will be interesting to see what effects the ripples of this has, in a European Union context.
Alliances are bound to change somewhat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,kiwi guest
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:13 AM

I wondered about the bombing as soon as I became aware that the election was so close. Did the incumbent political party predict the eventual outcome and stage the bombing themselves? It would be crazy for oposing organizations to stage such an event just before the election when the incumbent party was supporting the so called war on terror. you have to ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:38 AM

Hi Bobert,

I am not a pretty boy, neither am I a parrot.

I am expressing my own opinion. Here in China I am not deluged by TV or radio. I have time to read widely and make my own mind up.

Terrorist groups will use this for their own propaganda, because that is the nature of a terrorist organisation. Their simple violent acts are designed to grab headlines and they do not care when, who or how they kill or the after effects, just so long as it meets with their own ideals.

What better result than to additionly claim a 'first' in influencing a democratic election. That is something the IRA could never have claimed in all their bombing campaigns.

I too have deep reservations about governments using a war for their own ends, having had three close friends killed in action during the Falklands war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:18 AM

Thank you for answering my question to freda, Guest.

So the long and short of it is:

1. The Spanish Army contingent currently operating in Iraq will remain until the hand over to the Interim Government - i.e. they will remain "in country" for as long as they were originally intended to be there.

2. Spain and it's Government still remain firmly committed to countering terrorism both domestic and international, and terrorist organisations both domestic and international.

What was that French saying again - "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose." ("The more things change, the more they remain the same.")

Shanghaiceltic - I agree on your take of things and that some among the various international terrorist groups will now believe that they can influence the politics of democratic governments and elections.

Bobert - What Jim McCallan said in his post above is correct, Aznar's Party was fully expected to win that election by all the political commentators, analysts and pundits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

Teribus, I also said that in the wake of the bombings, Zapatero might decide to pull out Spanish troops with or without the UN resolution. According to the Australian reports freda is talking about, which are from today (mine is from yesterday), it is quite possible that Zapatero will make the (probably correct from a political standpoint) decision to pull the troops out fast, while the momentum from the election & the attacks is with him.

There are reports in today's Washington Post, of Zapatero's intentions to distance himself from Washington, and work on aligning Spain with the more progressive European governments, most notably France and Germany.

Which I believe is the right thing to do for Spain. This terrorist bombing wasn't just a message to Spain. This terrorist bombing was a message from terrorists to Europe. This is something that Europe needs to deal with at the EU level. I think this will mark the beginning of Britain being pushed to the margins in terms of European security. No one in Europe trusts the Blair government on security and terrorism issues right now.

While I think the argument can be made that terrorists will see this sort of attack prior to elections as a success for them, I really don't think so. Politics of security are much more complicated than that. I think the Spanish vote was really about the way the Aznar government tried to exploit the attack to their political advantage in the run up to the election, not about the Spanish people cowering in the face of terrorists, and being bombed into doing the will of Al Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:06 AM

Neil Kinnock was generally expected to win the British General Election back in 1992, but he didn't.

All polls are subject to things such as, what is the size of turn-out, and does this have a particular impact one way and another on the fortunes of particular parties. In this case the vote was a great deal higher than had been expected, as was inevitable on the morrow of the largest street rally in the history of the country.

Pretty obviously the bombings were a factor in deciding this election, but predicting which way it would have worked in advance would have been remarkably difficult. And one thing that needs to be taken into the calculation is the effect of the way the previous Spoansh Government responded, which was seen by many people as a dishonest and distasteful attempt to make use the bombing to get the result it wanted.

The other thing to have in mind is, "What is the impact that the bombers would hope to achieve in any particular election?" I would think that, in the case of the November Election in the USA, they would be hoping to have Bush elected, and I fear that a spectacular atrocity near polling day would be seen as a way to help that along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:30 PM

But a terrorist attack in the US near election day could also benefit the Dems. You just can't predict these things, especially from this far out from an election. Yesterday's NY Times ran an article on how the use of 9/11 for political purposes backfired on both the Rep and Dems in the governors race in NY last year.

NY Times & Washington Post today both are running articles on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

"But a terrorist attack in the US near election day could also benefit the Dems."

Could be - and if the terrorists think that's the case, I'd predict they might put things off until after the election to avoid that happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

I think the attacks in Spain likely were set up to coincide with elections. But we don't know why.

Terrorists can't predict what the result of an attack close to an election will have on the election, any better than we can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Alex.S
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:48 PM

I'm glad for Zapatero, more because he is a leftist than a peacenik. I would like to know, however, how much you want Blair out of office given that, unlike the U.S. and Spain, a government change in Britain would mean a swing to the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:34 AM

Aye, Alex---but not much further to the right!! Seriously, though, you have a point; we are becoming more like USA every year that passes. We'll soon have two choices--- the right and the out-of-sight right. The "left" nowadays in UK are labelled "liberals".


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:32 AM

Over here in the UK, the media is doing it's best to help fuel the flames from the gov't's attempts to use what happened in Madrid to become ever more "vigilant" on all public transport. That's only the beginning. For whatever reasons behind the bombing and the timing of the bombing in Madrid, it certainly had the effect of getting people more scared and paranoid than they were before. This is fertile ground for the governments both in the UK and the US to use towards their "war against terrorism". Bottom line is that the bombers are making an emotional impact, and that will lead towards people jumping on the bandwagon towards more divisive behavior against anyone they deem "suspect", rather than going back and focusing on the whys behind the terrorism...this is my concern.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:06 AM

The "left" nowadays in UK are labelled "liberals".

Traditionally, of course, the Liberal Party is to the right of the Labour Party - but these days on a lot of issues it's seen as to the left. (NB "to the left of New Labour" does not mean left-wing!)

The worry for Labour over this isn't going to be people switching to the Tories, it'll be people staying home, or maybe voting Liberal. Or Green. I think it's likely that in the June European Elections the Greens are going to do very well indeed, and the Labour vote will be very badly hit by abstentions. Since it's on a PR system that won't help the Tories much, unlike in a General Election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM

Aznar supporters call Spanish election a 'robbery'

At the protest, banners read "Zapatero: president ...of al-Qaida"

Well, lost elections are everywhere difficult to bear for the losers.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: DougR
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM

Most predictions over here, McGrath, are that if a terrorist attack happened just prior to the elections, it would help Bush, not Kerry.

I believe that to be true. Americans rally around their leader during a crisis, as they did on 9/11.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:32 PM

I disagree with most of you on this point.   The bombings in Spain have helped Bush and will continue to help Bush in the future.   The main issue that Bush has in his favor is the war on terroism.   The problem was that Bush did such a good job on it (according to Dick Morris) that people have forgotten about it and no longer consider it an important issue.   The bombings in Spain have caused Americans to remember that terrorism is still out there.   Definately a plus for Bush.

There is another huge difference people are not considering.   Spain gave in to terrorism.   Plain and simple.    Americans are just the opposite.   A terrorist attack in the USA will sign, seal, and deliver the election to Bush in a landslide.   Americans fight back.   Americans don't give up.    They would rally behind Bush as someone to fight back rather than Rally to Kerry who would wafle and leave it the UN

The more the Socialist government of Spain supports Kerry, the better it is for Bush.    Kerry is trying to position himself as a moderate.   The last thing he wants is the endorsement of the socialits. (most of them in the USA will vote for Nader anyway)   The only thing better for Bush would be for Jacque Chirac to support Kerry.    I guess we will have to settle for Howard Dean absurd comments.   (no wonder Kerry went on a vacation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:53 PM

"Spain gave in to terrorism.   Plain and simple."

Spain exercised democracy. plain and simple. according to reports the Spanish people polled near 90 percent against becoming involved in Iraq last fall but their represenative government betrayed their wishes and went ahead anyway. So instead of buying the insane logic that since we've done something stupid (i.e. creating more terrorists by fighting a war that was unecessary while ignoring the actual enemies) we have to keep doing it because we did it and can't stop now, they decided to hold their government responsible and find a different way to deal with the problem of terrorism. the way they were dealing with it isn't working so they have the sense to try a different tack. let's hope we show some of that type of intelligence here in november.

oh, PS to you militarists out there, if the people don't exercise their democratic rights, their freedom and their obligation to hold their government responsible for lies, deception and needless killing, guess what?...the terrorists WIN! we don't want that!


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Strick
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:04 PM

I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that some Spanish believe that they were an al-Qaida target for cooperating with the US in Iraq. I have to agree with an editorial in Slate written by Christopher Hitchens. So Turkey was an al-Qaida target for not cooperating with the US in Iraq? And Saudia Arabia was attacked because the US withdrew its troops? And the attack on the synagogue in Morocco was, well the logic fails me.

I'm happy the Spanish people exercised their right to vote, but like some others, I'm concerned about the message sent to any future terrorists of any stripe whether their cause is just or not. Yielding to terrorist demands isn't nearly always the answer, particularly where your extermination seems to be their primary goal.


BTW, I wouldn't go to the Olympic Games in Greece for all the money in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:26 PM

"Most predictions over here, McGrath, are that if a terrorist attack happened just prior to the elections, it would help Bush, not Kerry."

And as I indicated, that's what I think such an attack is pretty likely to happen. I'm not joking when I say that I think Al Qaida would prefer Bush to be elected, because they'd see him as more likely one way and another to ensure that they get recruits and supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM

"So Turkey was an al-Qaida target for not cooperating with the US in Iraq? And Saudia Arabia was attacked because the US withdrew its troops? And the attack on the synagogue in Morocco was, well the logic fails me."

the attacks in turkey were on british banks and other targets associated with the brits. most commentators believe the message was not anti-turk but anti-brit. saudi arabia has long been an al-quida target because of the royal family government that consorts with westerners and does not maintain an islamic fundamentalist stance. i don't know about the synagogue attack you mention. is the logic clearer now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:30 PM

When your purpose is to stir up a war, it doesn't particularly matter whom you target. To make any kind of sense of this, you have to put yourself into a whole different way of thinking. It's not a matter of being illogical, but the premises underlying the activities are radically different from the ones that normally obtain.

Sometimes this kind of thing has been expressed in terms of two people who are trying to play a game, but one is playing chess and the other is playing poker. What kind of game is Al Qaida playing? I couldn't say, but it's very clearly one in which sacrificing pieces is part of the strategy. Sometimes very big pieces, whole countries even.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Alex.S
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:32 PM

I think a major terrorist attack would hurt Bush. The fact is, invading Iraq or Afghanistan has no impact on multinational terrorist syndicates, and every attack shows the American people that bush's silly war was pointless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM

US Republican Senator Dennis Hastert has accused the Spanish electorate of " appeaseing terrorists by voting out the Aznar government". what a pity the majority of the people of the US never realise their Puppet and his henchmen are the biggest liars on earth.
The Spanish people should be given credit for getting rid of Aznar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 06:35 AM

i don't know about the synagogue attack you mention (Guest from NW)

I can change that: For instance, Al Qaeda has claimed being responsible for the fire bombing of a synagogue in Djerba (I don't know the English transliteration; Jerba?) on April, 11, 2002, which killed 19 people, among them 14 German tourists.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Spain elects new Premier
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:46 AM

Does anyone have a link to the booklet Iraqi Jihad, hopes and risks: Analysis of the reality and visions for the future, and actual steps in the path of the blessed Jihad.? I have only found a version in what I guess is Arabic. In German or English I have only read summaries and I'd like to read it all.

There the Al Qaeda strategy is laid out quite clearly, why they start with Spain and that they actually had the change of government in Spain as a tactical aim. By the way, they do not expect Britain to give in after two or three attacks. They think that only public pressure will change British politics.

As for the USA. they say "We believe...Iraqi resistance will be able to increase the costs for the USA near to 400 Billion Dollars... the expected upper limit". Their thinking is very differentiated and they are out to use a different approach with each country. With the USA, as becomes clear in the quote, they see financial costs as the best means of pressure and not loss of American lives.

They do not say so explicitely, but 9/11 from their point of view was a success for the economical damage and not for the human damage. The concrete aim for Iraq is a strict islamistic state without any interference.

Wolfgang


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