BS: The America that will vote for Bush

Subject: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM

Here is an interesting perspective on American right wing populism, from LeMonde Diplomatique:

"The America that will vote for Bush"

Of course, right wing populism is also what put Clinton in office for two terms, when a lot of working class Reagan Democrats went back to the party fold, and joined with the African American working class voter to keep the Bill and Hill show rolling.

Of course, I can get away with saying this in my radical leftist circles, because I don't drink lattes, drive a Volvo, or vacation in Europe. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 11:40 AM

I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but it is a very interesting piece.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

Good article. Seems very much on the ball to me, though of course my experience of America is mediated through the press, TV, and the net, especially the Mudcat.

A lot of what he writes ties in with things you find over here, especially in some of the tabloid press. Including the way the phrase "chattering classes", is used, with its implication that real people know their places, and keep their mouths shut. when it comes to politics. "He thinks too much - such men are dangerous."

But I'd be interested to hear where it is kat thinks he's got it wrong, so far as the USA is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:15 PM

I think people got issues when they USE the word 'latte'.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM

I can't speak to how true large parts of this are, but it is a delicious argument. I'm sure it's both too glib to be true in detail but perfectly true in the main.

BTW, this quote:

"The aversion to Bush, at home and abroad, makes us forget how many people support this spokesman for another America sure of its superiority and its values."

Do I accurately recall the Clinton Administration lecturing the rest of the world on civil rights and other issues when they came to office, much to the deep resentment of "old" Europe if I get the details correctly? I'm not saying bad things about Clinton, only pointing out that the confidence in our "superiority and its values" is a common thread in all American politicians regardless of creed.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 02:28 PM

As a radical leftist, I'm happy to say bad things about the Clinton administration.

And just so you know, I don't drink latte or speak of it much. But then, I don't hang out at Borders either.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

I rather thought, Strick, that that was the point he was making. Looking at Bush and America from outside we can fail to recognise that a lot of what we find strange and alien isn't just Bush and teh Reoublicans, it's generic American.

And the point the writer is making, surely, is that domestic opponents of Bush need to recognise the truth of that. If you want to destroy the corruption of what America could be which is represented by Bush and Co, you have to do it in an American way. Mark Twain - Woodie Guthrie - Pete Seeger - Garrison Keiller - Michael Moore. And there's more where that came from in all colours, female as well as male, and all colours.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

I rather thought, Strick, that that was the point he was making. Looking at Bush and America from outside we can fail to recognise that a lot of what we find strange and alien isn't just Bush and the Republicans, it's generic American.

And the point the writer is making, surely, is that domestic opponents of Bush need to recognise the truth of that. If you want to destroy the corruption of what America could be which is represented by Bush and Co, you have to do it in an American way. Mark Twain - Woody Guthrie - Pete Seeger - Garrison Keillor - Michael Moore. And there's more where that came from, in all colours, female as well as male.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:22 PM

I see absolutely wrong with a leftist vacationing in Europe, drinking lattes, or partaking in any of the other pleasures in life many "lefties" feel are reserved for "righties."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:37 PM

Is there a problem of Americans who vacation in Europe? Does this stereotype extend to all the Europeans especially English who holiday here in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:41 AM

"And the point the writer is making, surely, is that domestic opponents of Bush need to recognise the truth of that. If you want to destroy the corruption of what America could be which is represented by Bush and Co, you have to do it in an American way."

On the contrary, I see the author showing that this portion of the left is blind to it's own corruption (each side carries the seeds of different evils of extreme). They also see the right as a caricature that is, ironically, not that different in style from the caricature the author paints of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:50 AM

The article appears to be a complete rehash...as though the author had pulled a paragraph or two out of any of hundreds of articles that have been written over the past twenty years or so. The definition of what (or perhaps that should be where) is 'right' depends entirely on how far 'left' the author sees himself. In reality, most Americans are quite firmly in the center, and don't see themselves as belonging to any extreme. The same person can believe strongly in both the right to gay marriage and the need for gun control, and not consider that odd in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:52 AM

Sorry..the last sentence should have said "both the right to own guns and the need for gun control."

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:00 AM

I have been art of an America convinced of its superoirority and that of its values for mny years, when younger. The reason, at bottom, was that I really believed our Grand Experiment was still a breakthrough, and the COnsittution still a leading-edge document. I believed it miught be possible to have a democracy, or at least democratic practices.

And Ibelieve the Bush machine is quite the opposite. One single point of rep[resentative proof is his willignness to adulterate the enlightenment that produced the Consittution and use it to enforce a divisive moralistic opinion which has no business in law -- a willignness which puts the whole thrust and purpose of the Consittution on the block , for the sake of petty gains.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:23 AM

Oh, Amos, no offense, but what tripe.

artbrooks, rehashes? As if all the right bashing articles that get posted here aren't? :D

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM

"In reality, most Americans are quite firmly in the center, and don't see themselves as belonging to any extreme."

I suppose it's all relative - but from a European perspective, your centre is way way to the right of what most people here would see as centre politics.

What comes across is that most of the divisions that are presented as left-right issues are about issues that don't really fit on a left-right spectrum at all. Things like gun control and gay marriage, for example.

Maybe, paradoxically that's another way of saying what artbrooks is saying. Except I'd call it a division among people who are evidently right of centre.

That doesn't mean that the differences doen't matter, because it does. As Noam Chomsky is reported as saying this week (in an interview in which he described the Democrats and Republicans as "two factions of the business party") : "But despite the limited differences both domestically and internationally, there are differences. In a system of immense power, small differences can translate into large outcomes."

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:16 AM

No offense, but what tripe

Well, no offense, but I find your remark as offensive as any; I was saying something that meant something to me, even if it bounced off your insensitive minicephalic superstructure, Strick. I fail to see any merit or purpose in your condescension.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:28 AM

I think he nailed it.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

Sorry, Amos, I should have replied more fully but I could barely read the post and I have other things to do.

The Constitution is not sacred. We've never treated it that way. It's more like the foundation of an old building no one pays any attention to unless it cracks or they want to do something it doesn't support and they try to figure out how to use or abuse it to get their way.

I've read enough of how Presidents, Congress, the Supreme Court and laymen with an ax to grind have bent it to their political whims over the last 215 years that I don't find supporting an amendment that will never see the light of day is that cosmic an event.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:19 AM

I don't find supporting an amendment that will never see the light of day is that cosmic an event.

NEither do I; it simply represents to me his (W's) lack of qualification to hold his position. He not only doesn't deserver to be elected or re=appointed; he doesn't qualify. You can take na oath to defend the Constituion or you can swear to uphold some narrow set of religous or moral values whioch one minority prefers. But you can't have iot both ways without being open to charges of blatant hypocrisy. I don't care where George gets his beliefs from, but I get really pissed when he starts trying to dictate mine to me.

No cosmic event involved, agreed; neither was the original framing a cosmic event. But in human terms, as to the fate of men and women on planet Earth, it was an event with a LOT of consequence, which W is now trivializing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:53 AM

Amos, the strangest thing has happened. While everyone was anguishing over the improbability of a Constitutional amendment, public opinion has switched from 60% against civil unions to 60% for them. Amazing. Not only does Bush get to solidify his base with a throughly useless gesture, the amendment will never pass a vote even in the Republican controlled House, he's been able to endorse civil unions without any stigma or political cost. Just two months ago if he had come out for civil unions, his own party would have crucifed him. Coming out for this amendment in the headlines of the news enabled him to hide his support for civil unions in the fine print. Isn't it obvious he had to come out for civil unions just like Kerry (and Edwards, who is now long forgotten)? Who could argue? Even his most conservative supporters have to accept it; to do anything else would disaffect the center and cost them the election.

An amazing slight of hand, really. We'll see civil unions allowed in nearly every state with little or no opposition as the next two to four years unfold. Face it, Amos, you've been had.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:05 PM

IF so, it isn't I that has been had but his fundamentalist right supporters, to whom any tolerance of same-sex relations is anathema. But that is their problem.

But I suspect you may be giving him too much credit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

Whether he deserves it or not, it's a fait accompli. That's the beauty of it. It's done and he can't possibly be blamed. Innocent of all charges while true to the wishes of the disorganized religious center.

I don't mean to belittle your anquish, Amos, I just don't see the point in sharing it under the circumstances. Quite fighting the dead-on-arrival amendment and start helping get civil unions on the agenda in your state.

If the amendment ever makes it out of the House, we can work on our letters to our respective Senators together. Not that it would matter. The amendment doesn't stand a snowball's chance in New Oleans of getting approved by the sharely divided Senate no matter what we did.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM

Did Amos or anyone else say they thought this bizarre marriage amendment of Bush was intended as a serious proposal, rather than a bit of cynical electioneering flummery?

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 03:23 PM

"Did Amos or anyone else say they thought this bizarre marriage amendment of Bush was intended as a serious proposal, rather than a bit of cynical electioneering flummery?"

Assuming that question was directed to me, some have but not many. Amos and others sure act like it's real and going to happen tomorrow. It seems like something some people want to wallow in the misery of. Why not move past the "Oh, woe is me" phase and use the opening it provides to do something most of the country agrees on rather fight for something that will only further the bitterness?

This was one of the things I was thinking about, McGrath when you asked your question in the slavery thread. In the end, one side or the other will "win" however much blood is shed and however long the repercussions last. Wouldn't it be easier to reach a compromise we all feel good about and get the damn thing over with?

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM

I'm not at all clear what the fight in this thread is about, Strick, and who should be compromising with whom.

This is all about electioneering. Presumably it would be better if everyone agreed to stop telling lies and being manipulative and so forth, Hkwever when many of the leading characters and their minders are people who couldn't recognise the truth if it stood up and bit them, that's hardly likely to happen in a hurry. Maybe some day the voters will decide they don't like this kind of game, and it'll stop, because it won't work any more. But not this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:25 PM

Oh, you don't expect us to resolve all the politicking do you? I was just looking for a way to bring comfort to gay couples who do seem suffer unnecessarily from time to time.

The problem with not like this kind of game is that there's no other game in town and won't be soon. Heck, if we elected Nadar, he'd turn within months once he learned to like power and rationalized his need to keep it "one more term for the good of the people". If I seem cynical about politicians (though no more than others here), I plead good company from across the sands of time.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:47 PM

I agree with Strick. I don't think the amendment has a prayer (bad word?) of passing.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

Bush will get a majority of the NASCAR votes. They don't think clearly after going round and round all these years. None of them are know for their towering intellect anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:13 PM

Where would Bush be if al the angry white guys didn't have all that money to dump in barrels into his campaign?

And, BTW, why are they angry? They got all the money?...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:32 PM

Ya know, I must be naive AND opinionated, both. When the President of the United States originates the idea of a consittutional amendment and says he will support such a porposition, I kinda take him seriously. I can't get used to the notion that every phrase out of his mouth is a self-serving alteration of fact; and certainly not that this is normal operation. But now I am being told that i shouldn't be surprised -- he probably never meant such a thing, he just said it as a manipulation of public opinion. In other words the man is lying again. OK.

Now that I am beginning to get used to -- the notion that he is a fatfaced chronic continuous liar. The kind of guy you would expect to be sellling used Mercuries.

But when he as POTUS says that the amendment he is willing to consider and supprot is one that inserts moral strictures into the US COsntitution, as far as I am concerned, he is demonstrating a woeful ignorance as to the duties ofhis own position and discrediting his own heritage and undermining the COTUS. And therefore deserves to be roundly criticized and even fired.

As one of his 300 million employers, my small part of his employment consciousness is past the point of patience and says, "You're fired".

Anyone wanna join me? More than welcome.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:41 PM

Lets see, Amos, I got a Zippo lighter if that will help ya' get Bush fired...

Where's Donuel when we need him? I'm sure he could put together some cool "Fire Bush" posters...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:42 PM

Compromise?

Legislate the rights of all Americans away to satisfy some knee jerk reaction by the righties and the so-called Christian coalition?

Call it civil unions and you deny these folks the same protections, benefits and rights due to all Americans. I'm not gay and at the moment I have no gay acquaintenances (apologies to anyone here who might be and consider me a friend).

A compromise to me would be the same as the seperate but equal crap that the country endured. We know that it's not right! Why should we settle for it?

And when we are done shooting this proposed amendment we'll rally around the polling station and put him in the trash with the rest of the garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:46 PM

"When the President of the United States originates the idea of a consittutional amendment and says he will support such a porposition, I kinda take him seriously."

Oh, if it comes before him, he'll sign it. Of course he didn't originate it, it was first proposed some time ago, a bit before Clinton signed DOMA, wasn't it? As we've discussed the proposed amendment merely puts in writing the definition of marriage that existed in every state since the beginning of history. If activist courts reinventing the "COsntitution" to suit their social agenda and contrary to the wishes of the majority of those 300 million employers of theirs, then a good portion of those employers, no one would have proposed it up, would they?

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:54 AM

Strick:

Sorry for the yptos.

As for the definition of marriage, the fact that some people agree on it doesn't make it less of an infringement to enforce it on all people. LEAST of all by Federal law. And to make it not only Federal law but to pervert the purpose of the Constitution to be a vehicle for it is poor, poor, piss-poor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:12 AM

Not everyone cares if our 'George' is a genius
Or if he is briefed by the knowing
But often it is that his biased b'tween us
Is the tip of an iceberg not showing

And many there are, in this country ashame'd
Of the distance between rich and poor
But 'George' is so confident, feeling all fame'd
A'leading us well, and he's sure...

So those who stand tall in his shadow are cheering
For 'he's saved us in difficult times'
A'listen in silence for words of revering
In a manifestation of mimes

A nuance unneeded is our personal thinking
For those next to 'George' do it for us
We've only to follow the the horse that is drinking
The trough has been put here before us

Yes, those will vote for him... the ones who've forgotten
That leaders must be caring... humanely
Except for the rotten, like that damn'd bin Laden
Who kill and by fear wax insanely

But let me just say, in a moment of peace
That 'George' may not do us an honor
For his likeness to war is not likely to cease
And we can't be much healed with a bomber

The only solution that in my mind speaks
Is a world well funded and clothed and fed
Compassion's foundation can calm the world's tweeks
There's much good to do, but 'George' says instead...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:15 PM

I clean for a wealthy Jewish doctor, who contributed to Bush's campaign. I'm sure he did it because Bush cut his taxes, and is promising to protect him from malpractice suits.
That Bush is in bed with people who want to make this country a Christian theocracy doesn't seem to bother the doc. It won't until his grandkids are pledging allegiance to the Christian flag.   
He's helping Bush take away our rights to save money! Is that horrible or is that horrible?

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:55 AM

I always wondered if there was a difference between:

"I'll give you twnety bucks to vote for me"

and

"Vote for me and I'll reduce your taxes"

Seems to me that both are buying a vote.
At least in the first you come out ahead.
The latter is purchasing your vote with your own money.

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:20 AM

Gee, LadyJean, why would you work for such a stupid employer? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The America that will vote for Bush
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:52 AM

I'd be inclined to ask Colin Powell the same question about his own employment, Dougie! :>)

A