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Origins: Wildwood Flower

DigiTrad:
I'LL TWINE 'MID THE RINGLETS
THE MAN WHO PICKED THE WILDWOOD FLOWER
WILDWOOD FLOWER


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DADGBE 30 Mar 04 - 12:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 30 Mar 04 - 02:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 04 - 03:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Apr 04 - 02:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM
Kaleea 06 Apr 04 - 03:19 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 04 - 05:38 PM
Joybell 06 Apr 04 - 07:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Apr 04 - 09:14 PM
GUEST,Craig Dupler 14 Apr 04 - 09:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM
Joybell 15 Apr 04 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Eric Bram (Bramicus) 23 Feb 06 - 06:19 AM
kendall 23 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,cdo 01 Apr 06 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,pjp 09 Jun 07 - 09:55 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM
Taconicus 09 Jun 07 - 07:25 PM
Taconicus 09 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Jun 07 - 07:29 PM
Taconicus 09 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM
Peace 10 Jun 07 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Dick Van Hooser 11 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM
The Sandman 11 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM
The Sandman 11 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Nov 08 - 06:08 PM
Bill D 11 Nov 08 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Nov 08 - 10:03 PM
Joybell 12 Nov 08 - 01:17 AM
Taconicus 19 Sep 13 - 09:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM
Taconicus 20 Sep 13 - 01:48 PM
Taconicus 05 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM
Taconicus 05 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM
Taconicus 07 Jun 15 - 01:35 AM
Lighter 07 Jun 15 - 09:09 PM
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Subject: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: DADGBE
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:31 PM

The Mudcdat data base has the Maud Irving and J. P. Webster version of Wildwood Flower called, "I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets" listed as from 1860. While I've seen the 1888 version, I have never seen the hard evidence for the 1860 claim. Do any 'Catters have sheet music with that early publication date?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM

The date comes from pdmusic.org (as noted by Genie, thread 4074, 23 Aug 01.
In PDmusic, the reference given is M1621.W.
"I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets" is followed by [No. 57] [1860, 1888].

Perhaps these references will help you.
My other suggestion is to send an Email to the site (they have answered questions and corrections I posed to them promptly and courteously). Just click on the Link Benjamin Robert Tubb at the foot of pages.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:49 PM

Here are two threads:

Origins: Wildwood Flower - 1860
Origins: Wildwood Flower - 1888


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 03:15 PM

I have emailed B. R. Tubb. Previous threads don't answer the question posed by DADGBE.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:03 PM

The Library of Congress has sheet music, M1621,W, issued in 1860, of "I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets."
Photoduplication Services Division, Library of Congress, can supply photocopies. Benjamin Tubb, pdmusic.org, has a photocopy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

I should have a copy in a few days. I will post it here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:19 AM

I'm curious as to the exact name of the flower in the original published lyric. I once spoke (years ago) to a botanist who said the 1st song she ever learned on guitar was "Wildwood Flower," but she had not heard that part of the song till I sang it. She said the flower in the lyric--"aronatus"---was incorrect, & sent me a picture (long since lost) of what she belived was the flower they were trying to refer to in the song. It really did look like a "frail wild(wood) flower."
   So--I am wondering if the lyric I have is actually what was originally published.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:38 PM

The word in the original song is 'aronatus,' which cannot be found or identified from any of the floras of the region, nor from lists of any cultivated flowers. Was it mis-heard 'aromaticus,' Arenaria (related to Dianthus, or pinks),' 'armatus'?
We will never know unless Maud Irving can be resurrected from the dead.
The song says that the flower is pale with eyes of bright blue. This is the only clue.

In the original song, the "frail wildwood flower" is the singer herself, not a flower in the botanical sense.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:42 PM

Here in Australia the flower line has been collected as:
"... pale Amanita with Eyeslip so blue...."

Funny idea putting mushrooms in your hair, I've always thought. And Eyeslip is not a flower I've ever been able to find.

Another interesting note - The Carter Family sing, "I will twine with my mingles of RAVING black hair" I've always liked that.
       Joy whose hair isn't raven any more but could be described as raving.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM

The Amanita also has poisoned some versions of "Wildwood Flower" in the USA as well.
All of this has been gone over in previous threads. Song writers are seldom botanists or even gardeners and it doesn't pay to examine their 'bouquets' too closely.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:14 PM

The original 1860 sheet music, J. P. Webster and Maud Irving, is copyright 1860 by H. M. Higgins. The newer copyright 24952 by Mrs. J. P. Webster, Sept. 1, 1888, used the original cover sheet of 1860 (which date still shows). The original plate number, 3288_3, shows on all pages (except cover, of course), so the 1988 edition is the same in all respects with no music changes.
This information provided by Benjamin Tubb of PD Music. He further notes that his midi file version transcribed the melodic variations also for each verse rather than "lazily transcribing only the first melody for each verse.
The midi may be found by searching pdmusic.org, J. P. Webster for 1860 and clicking on the title of the tune: J. P. Webster


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Craig Dupler
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:01 PM

JP died in 1875, so the 1880 date is somebody's typo that has been picked up and repeated.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Guest, read more carefuly. The re-issue with new copyright of 1888 was by his widow, Mrs. J. P. Webster, not by J. P. himself.

(I made an error as well- 1988 instead of 1888. Ah, well- shall we each admit to one tiny nit-pickin' flaw?)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:14 PM

Of course she was raving, and not just her hair - just realized why!It was the Amanitas. They do that to you. Joy


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Eric Bram (Bramicus)
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:19 AM

My comments on "aronatus" can be found near the (current) bottom of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM

Joybell, I believe it is spelled "Islip" as in Islip New York.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,cdo
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:00 AM


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,pjp
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:55 AM

until now I thought it was 'amethyst' but I can see I was wrong .. it is a blue stone, and she was listing a number of flowers she would put in her hair.   Oh well... just like a woman. You never quite know what they are rambling on about. They just keep talking. [Cop stopped and Irishman and said "you must be drunk .. your wife fell out of the car a mile back and you never stopped.." and he said "Oh.. thanl God ... I thought I was going deaf!"]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:35 PM

Yes, their education should never have been permitted to go beyond flower arranging.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:25 PM

Here's another (very unlikely, I hope) possibility for what the "aranatus" was: a spider! I certainly hope the woman in the song isn't twining spiders into her hair!

But, for completeness…

In the "Transactions of the Kansas Academy of Science," Vol. XIX, 1905, in the "Biological Section" entitled "A Preliminary List of Kansas Spiders" on page 188, under "Family ARGIOPIDAE." we find the following entry:

Araneus aranatus Walck.
Epeira aranata Walck. Ins. Apt., II, 1837-'47, p. 133.
    Common in the woods about Manhattan [Kansas] in the midsummer months.

The Argiopidae are a family of orb-weaving spiders with eight eyes, and includes many well-known large or brightly colored garden spiders. (Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. 2002). Araneus (Aranea) is the genus. Aranatus must therefore be the species. "Walck" refers to some guy named C. A. Walckenaer who set up entire spider-naming systems in the 1840's.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM

"1800's" that was supposed to say.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:29 PM

Spider, and other variant meanings, have been mentioned in previous threads.

The truth is, no one has a clue as to what flower is meant.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM

That's been said in previous threads too.
;-)
Wildwood Flower


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:23 PM

An oral history here.

Scroll down to "Wildwood Flower" and click the link to the lower left of the short article. It uses RealPlayer.

The original link takes about ten seconds to load. (Done by the Carter Family.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Dick Van Hooser
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 03:10 PM

For Islip, I think it might be an erroneous version of Cowslip.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:43 PM

amaryllis.,is the flower.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 05:53 PM

pale and the leader is probably pale amaryllis according to the Carters song book.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 06:08 PM

Amaryllis is a southern African bulbous plant. Hippeastrum (the names commonly confused) is a tropical South and Central American bulbous plant.
Cowslip is a European primrose.

What the Carters were talking about, Lord only knows.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:00 PM

see the OTHER 8-10 discussions of this at the top.... experts on flowers, music and history have puzzled over it for years...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:03 PM

I think it was supposed to be 'annelida'. The annelida are the segmented worms, and in Tennessee-Kentucky they have a pale, segmented worm with blue eyes. You only see them after drinking moonshine.



I was just kidding. Actually, making verses which rhyme, scan, and make sense is very hard. I think JP or Maude, (whichever did the lyrics) simply gave up and invented a flower which suited the purpose. And who can blame them?

Somewhere I saw a video of some Carters singing this song, and they sang 'waving black hair.' Folk process, I guess.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Nov 08 - 01:17 AM

The older version is in 3/4 time, I seem to recall. Interesting that way but without the characteristic drive heard in Carter Family guitar style.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:07 PM

It looks like the true identity of "Maud Irving" may have been found: the poet, author, lecturer, and spiritualist ("trance speaker") J. William Van Namee.

See: The Mystery of Maud Irving


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM

Taconicus, thanks for your research into "Maud Irving." Much appreciated.
"I'm Waiting for Thee" has lines that certainly are suggestive of "I'll Twine....."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 01:48 PM

Thanks. Were you ever able to find the (1860 or 1888) published (not handwritten) sheet music for I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM

I've now updated my research entitled The Mystery of Maud Irving with part three, in which I lay out my doubts about whether J. William Van Namee actually wrote the lyrics to I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets.

See the other thread for more discussion.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

Oh no! Not another open pit like the ongoing John Henry speculations.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:14 PM

Hehe... that's Show Biz! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Taconicus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:35 AM

I've found another poem, The Consumptive's Request, published in 1861 by "Maud Irving" in one of the periodicals that Van Namee often published in. This one is different however, in that the words of this poem show marked similarity to some of the lyrics of I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets, speaking of pale lilies and fair roses. Furthermore, the metre and structure of this poem are almost identical to that of the song, so much so that the poem itself could be quite readily sung to the tune of the song. You can see the poem at this link.

This makes me feel more secure in the conclusion that I've found the correct Maud Irving.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 09:09 PM

> found the correct Maud Irving.

I think you have.

They don't write 'em like that any more.

Thank God.


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