BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:01 AM

Chekhov thought that if he showed people how depressing their lives were, they would change them. That is funny, in itself. I think that a lot of the humor may have been lost in translation--

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

The clerks generally file them in tragi-comedy. The acute observation is kind of funny in itself, the way a dead-on impersonation is, even if what's observed is awful and sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:41 PM

How do you feel about his plays? I'm voting with Stanislavski on this one - more tragic than funny. Chekhov may have written them but he didn't know what he'd written if he thought they were hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:12 PM

Chekhov was dying of tuberculosis for most of the time that his works were being performed by the Moscow Art Theater--not withstanding the scenery, his biggest complaint was that Stanislavski focused on the tragic elements in his plays, and he thought of them as comic satires!

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

From what I read, Ted, Stanislavski waited impatiently in Moscow, pressuring Chekhov to finish his plays, even when Chekov was ill and dying. If I remember correctly, Chekov's complaints seemed to be more about Stanislavski's sets than his methods.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM

You're right, Peter. I typed it wrong, then copied it in the same message and then into a second trying to save keystrokes. Please forgive me.

Bizarre effusions sounds lovely. Thanks. Reminds me of the opening to a book on Lord Northcliff(sp?) where he called up one of his newspapers and said, "I hear that they say I'm crazy. Send down your best reporter to get the story."

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

For some reason, I feel compelled to point out that as director of the Moscow Art Theatre, Stanislavski pretty much was the primary interpreter of Chekhov, and that, arguably, "The Method" was essential to the performance of Chekhov--and likely, as director and playwright, they had a good many disagreements--The playwright's nephew, Michael Chekhov, was a great teacher and proponent of the Method--

By some accounts, Stanislavski said that Lee Strasberg misunderstood the method, and was teaching it wrong--Sanford Meisner broke away from Strasberg because he thought the Strasberg Method was too artificial a too complicated--one point that sticks with me is that, while Strasberg emphasized the use of sense memory allowing the actor to create the character's emotions from his own while on stage, Meisner wanted the actor to feel things on stage as the character would--from my understanding, this is more what Stanislavski wanted--

If this seems a bit off topic, keep in mind that more than a few of the fifties and sixties folksingers that we know and love were also actors--

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 01:07 PM

But in my experience never Sanislavski, McGrath - until I saw flattop's bizarre effusions above.

If this is a true story, then it's strength lies in that. Blood and guts are not absolute prerequisites for tension and drama. Just imagination. I hope this film makes it. If there's one thing worse than censorship, it's self-censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

Sorry, L.H., but what you see ain't no fake. Iz real danged lexdexic. Ahhhh, BTW, when ya comin'? I'll have the the cobwebs outta the double decker bus/cottage and the sheets changed fir ya'...

Okay..... Christian, Christain, Christane, fir danged sakes....

Now ya happy?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:05 PM

Bobert, ol' buddy, if'n yew don't spell "Christian" right jest ONCE on this here forum, Ah am gonna personally come down ta Wes Ginny and write it acrost yer forehaid with a black felt pen! :-)

Enuff is enuff! It ain't Christain, it's Christian!!!!! And yew is one, fer chrissakes, so git it right!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:44 PM

Well, a movie based on this premise has been made. It was a 1 minute animated clip that we saw above and it was, mildly entertaining, but purdy danged Simpson-ish.

I believe a thoughtful movie on the highjacking of America by the Christain Right is way past due because the Christain Right is killing Christianity. They stole most of the churches in the early 70's, drove out the folks who believe the stories found in Matthew, Mark and Luke over of the Old Testament and "Rule Boy" Paul who only wants us to obey the system...

Yeah, it would be nice for the Chrisain Right folks to be taken on so that the true Christains can come out from hiding...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM

Movies tend to be fiction. What'a the big difference between a hoax and a fiction? Don't we want to be fooled?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Bif
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:13 PM

Sometimes I'm stupid. I gave the wrong link. Here is the info from Salon:
A tangled Web for virgins site
NEW DETAILS CAST DOUBT ON THE "OUR FIRST TIME" STORY.
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/07/17feature.html

Really shutting up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Bif
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:00 PM

You all seem like very nice people, and I don't want to belabor this point. It's just that I spent over an hour trying to find any other record of this true story at all. I did find a story saying the whole thing was a hoax:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0EIN/1998_Sept_18/53016372/p1/article.jhtml
Law Suits Fly in Internet "Virgins" Saga and the Case Lands in Federal Court at the Request of Internet Entertainment Group.
Business Wire, Sept 18, 1998.

I don't think I'd want to write a theme song for a movie based on a hoax.

I will shut up now. I enjoy your site.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:07 PM

My gosh, flattop, thanks for the kind comments! If I were trying to launch a music career, I'd have to get you to do the press releases, I guess. :-)

I hope you do make it over to Orillia soon. John Ashe and I were talking the other day, and he said it's a pity you're not around here anymore. We would like to see you run for mayor again. :-) This town definitely needs more imaginative management.

Kat - Thanks too. I'll PM you the rest of the lyrics, maybe later today when I get some time to look 'em up on the computer.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Blackcatter
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

Alice - it doesn't help that the thread is under the BS bar. If you'd hoped on a realistic discussion of theme music for the movie you would have had a better chance above the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM

Or of course it can be Tcheckov or Tchekov or Chekov or even Tschekov. And Stanislavsky or Stanslavsky or Stanislawsky...

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 AM

True Guest, but one might still try a few variants since Russian has sometimes been transliterated a few ways, and some notable Russian literati had their own pet versions--like Nabokov's "Anna Karinin" sans the feminine -a, or Gogol's Inspector General which comes out a few ways I think.

I've heard the Mel Brook's quote, but had forgotten it, thanks.

I seem to be incapable of addressing the topic of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:44 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:41 PM

For the record and for those wishing to learn more, you will have better luck spelling the fellers as "Chekhov" and "Stanislavski".

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

Little Hawk wrote lots of great songs but he hides them. I think some of his songs are better than Dylan's. (I have never heard Little Hawk sing out of tune, either.)

I prefer his non-preaching songs like Summer's Gone and Little Crow Woman, although I liked Jesus was not a Christian. Little Hawk can do strange and impressive tricks, not just with his body! He once accepted a challenge to write a song on Bosnia in a week. He wrote a really good song, good lyrics, good tune.

Monty Python characters might call one of his gifts extraneous bombastic circumlocution but his lyrics can be lovely and his tunes sparkle.

I told my woman, Greta, all about Little Hawk. She's excited about going to Ontario to hear him in May. Not sure we can make the trip. It's only a 1500 miles but hearing him would be worth the wander.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: DougR
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

Sorry about that, Alice, I guess I paid more attention to the title of the thread than I did your actual message. Since I'm not a songwriter, I'm ...signing off! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:43 AM

LH, that's some of the best I've ever read. Brings to mind Kris Kristofferson's Jesus was a Capricorn; another one the fundies don't like. Would love to read your whole song, if yer willin' to share it...maybe in a LYR ADD?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:09 AM

"Jesus was not a Christian
He was human in full degree
To be human is to live in love
Not exclusivity
To be human is to walk in truth
Not hide behind a book
Do you call yourself a Christian?
Time to take another look"

Excerpt from a song I wrote some years ago called: "Jesus Was Not a Christian"

I'm not sure I would want to attach it to a movie and get the whole Religious Right after me, though. I don't generally go around provoking dragons. It ain't worth it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:42 AM

Perhaps it's only funny if we laugh, Fred. Mel Brooks' theory was something like, 'Tragedy is if I fall down and hurt my finger, comedy is if you fall down a manhole and break your neck.'

To me The Cherry Orchard was more sad than funny. I've only read it. Perhaps it can be lighter on stage. Chekov seems to have felt the decline in his society, he was sick himself. The idea of cutting down trees that ancesters planted a hundred years before while thinking about past family and fruits, longing for the past but no one knowing how to bring it back.

Not long after Chekov wrote, in historical terms, Molotov had a cocktail in his hand. Chekov couldn't have known the details of the future but he felt cold winds blowing. Another Russian writer, I can't remember who, wrote about the good old days when his mother had enough authority to whack a servant in the head with a stick from behind the stove and kill him. Newer technologies in the hands of newer authorities brought horror to millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:11 AM

Thanks, Alice, for letting us know about this. I missed the songwriter's link somewhere. Do you have a direct addy for it?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:59 PM

Yes, and it's probably often preferable to make a poor decision than none at all. The "run like a business" subtext that I object to is simply the blanketing of any and all things together as hypothetical widgets. I worked for an art museum once where our director gave an inspirational speech about how he bought a pair of socks at Nordstrums. He wanted us to call patrons and vistors "customers".

I'm interested in your reading of The Cherry Orchard Flattop--don't you think it's deeply sad, but still very funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 12:08 AM

Saying, "It doesn't run like a business," has a lot of subtext. Presumably, that business is logical and follows some wisdom.

When Herbert Simon won the Nobel prize, he attributed it in part to his programs simulating business managers' decisions. He said that key to the simulation was recognizing that business decisions were emotional, not irrational. (I paraphrase from a bad memory, of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:52 PM

We'd rather gripe than lyricize. Please don't spoil our fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:49 PM

I don't see mounting horror in The Cherry Orchard, just a bunch of people talking about a Cherry Orchard that none of them are willing to do anything to save, because they are concerned with other things. It's significant in-action.
   
A thing that happens in drama is that we feel it is slow, but the solution is often to slow down even more, to find the significance of what's happening. Then it doesn't bore us, or seem slow.

I recently found a name for the problem of the tree. If it's too life-like it falls into the "uncanny valley". A japanese robot maker named the problem that when a robot looks too real you don't notice it's positive life-like qualities as much as the zombie-like missing part--things like the eyes not being able to fix on and follow an object.

Most of the acting we see in film is method-y or related to the so-called "system"--which isn't very systematic really. Sanford Meisner's book is a good up-close look at a version of teaching it.

I doubt Hollywood is afraid to make a movie like that story, but is just busy with others. Lots of stories get bought and shelved, and sometimes the writer would just as soon get paid and not endure the movie. Hollywood isn't very systematic either, not even to make money. G-rated movies make the most money, and have the biggest audience, but they make 3 R's for every G. And many PG's or PG13's could be released as G with just a snip--like they do for t.v. later. But that would compromise the artistic integrity of a lot of cheesy crap. It doesn't run like a business, but just the way the people run it, just like everything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Alice
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM

just kidding... again, THIS IS NOT MY FILM, I just posted the thread so you can submit original songs if you want to. Go to the link for more info.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Alice
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

... but are any of you guys going to write the theme song and submit it? That is why I started the thread. Show me some lyrics.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:26 PM

Bif, didn't the religious right cripple someone, Larry Flint?

Truth shouldn't interfere too much with a good story. Writers often combine roles, simplify, reduce situations to their essential emotional elements.

Sounds like a lot of people found redemption in this story - the religious right got their jollies crippling a business, the business people overcame obstacles in their fight for survival, the attorney found pleasure in the prostitute (althought in the movie version they might make him a pious peacher), lots of script angles to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Alice
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

hey, Doug and guys, I don't know where you got the idea that I'm making this film! I heard their ad on the radio and found the site on a search. It's clear from my post that I'm just giving you the link and info at the web site so you can submit songs for the theme music! Sheesh. Read the first message in the thread again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:14 PM

Hey, Little Hawk,

I first heard of Sanislavski from actors at a black theatre group in Toronto. I have a book on the Sanislavski System. Read about Chekov hating Sanislavski in the Orillia Library - don't remember what book. I was amused to find that Chekov had so much trouble with Sanislavski when Sanislavski had many followers and believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:05 PM

Chekov? Flattops? Are we back to Star Trek IV?

Chekov: Can you dwect me to da newcleare whesles?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

Prejudice is prejudice, regardless of which side of the line it stands on.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: GUEST,Bif
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 08:53 PM

This idea is precious: "make the religious right cripple someone, or create a sub-plot about paedophilia in the established church". If you can't beat Christians on the facts, just make up stuff.

Personally, I'm not buying the supposedly "based on a true" Rcoky VS Religon story.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:55 PM

i think it would be interesting to do....from several points of view...like the family who owns the chain...the hooker...and the attorney.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:29 PM

Where do you find all this stuff about Chekov and people like that, flattop? Quite intriguing.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: DougR
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM

Sorry, Alice, but I suspect Hollywood is not banking this movie because they fear there would not be enough boxoffice draw. They are in the business to make money, not support worthy causes, regardless of their percieved worth.

The best shot would be an Independent film, which is what you are trying to do.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM

Sounds more like a Frontline episode to me. Have you bothered to pitch it to them?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:28 PM

I think if you can do the Hustler pic, you can probably do this, but you'll need to make the religious right cripple someone, or create a sub-plot about paedophilia in the established church, or a religious leader with a plan to breed with all his acolytes to conquer the world, or something. I've sent it to some people in case it interests them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:18 PM

Looking at other threads, perhaps Americans could send all their commedians to Iraq and the Whitehouse.

Grocho Marx would probably have been a famous comedian, if he'd been an only child or if the other brothers had died at birth. Who can top Grocho saying, "Oh, Susannah, if you only knew how much I need you. Not because you have millions - I don't need millions. I'll tell you how much I need you. Have you got a pencil? I left my typewriter in my other pants."

Heart of the Beholder does have Hollywood potential. How about the prostitute for a lead? She is serching. She has actions and growth. Or how about a self-righeous picketer who grows to appreciate one of god's ceatures, a prostitute?

Where are your storyboards? What do you want for a grand opening scene? What do the hero and the villain want? What obstacles does the hero face? Will the hero win or lose? What is the big climax? What do you want to shoot for the big screen? What dull scenes can you cut before they end up on the cutting room floor?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

In an ideal world, comedy would trump bigotry every time.

S.I.Hayakawa talked about police in uniforms increasing tensions at hostage takings in bank holdups. Either he suggested or he triggered in my imagination, clowns negotiating in fun and kindness.

I wonder what would have happened if comedians like Cape Breton's McLean and McLean had been around to make fun of Hitler when he was an upstart. Being lowbrows, they would probably have insinuated that he had a big arse and a small penis. Would people have laughed and saved millions of lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

You almost make me feel guilty for laying it on thick, Little Hawk.

Did you know that the great Moscow Theatre director, Konstantin Sanislavski, nearly drove Chekov nuts?

Sanislavski wrote An Actor Prepares and perhaps other books on acting around the turn of the century. He influenced the likes of Sir Johnny Gielgud, Marlon Hampstercheeks Brando, and everyone out of the Actors Studio. But he pissed Chekov off something fierce.

Chehov wanted his plays presented simply, to allow audiences to use their imaginations, to dream along like they were listening to an early Dylan song, not some overproduced bunch of gypsies that wouldn't let you hear that the man couldn't carry a tune...

Sanislavski tried to build 'realistic' sets. Chekov complained that, the more Sanislavski painted the tree to look like a real tree, the more they said to themselves, 'You can't fool me, I know that's not a tree.'

I think I may have digressed a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM

Strikes me it'd work best as comedy. The best way to deal with this kind of bigotry is to make people laugh at it.

It'd make a great Simpsons script.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

Your sophisiticated approach to things like this never fails to impress me, flattop, and your panoramic grasp of Woody Allen movies leaves me breathless. Please go on...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: flattop
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

Woody Allen made some great movies and some stinkers. I doubt he would call himself Hollywood. He'd probably rather be associated with Gogol, Pasternak and Dostoevsky.

His great movies have action and conflict. One of his best, Bullets Over Broadway, mixed musical theatre with mob murder. In the end, they shot the woman who couldn't act - and rightly so because she was destroying real art. Even in his mediocre movies, they killed the woman, like his movie where the girlfriend became terribly annoying - I can't remember the title.

Other movies, like Love and Death, he has all the tension of the Napoleonic Wars, but, not being Hollywood, Allen couldn't afford thousands of extras. So he slyly covered up with philosophical angst, almost like he was having mudcat moments.

Allen's conflict and tension wasn't often superfluous fury. It was more like the slow terror in Chekov's Cherry Orchard where the family falls into ruin as the sisters slowly grow facial hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Fund the Movie Hollywood Afraid to Make
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM

woody allen has made a lot of good movies without any significant action. all you need is a good writer.

good luck alice, its a great idea.