BS: Man went to the moon, but why???

Subject: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:34 AM

Hi folks. Something has been bothering me about the 1960's moon landing...A lot of money was spent getting there..Man walked on the moon...a triumph by the standards as they were in those days...A miracle of modern science(as it was then).....BUT what the heck did they go there for and what good has it done anyone?????. Or perhapos it was all a hoax like the James Brolin film Capricorn One...Any ideas??

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:27 AM

The original impetus for the moon program was political - the government needed to show that we were as good as the Russians. As for 'what good has it done any one?', NASA is not allowed to patent discoveries made by contractors so it's hard to see, but there have been hundreds of new products and materials that came from NASA programs, from teflon to tang. The real reason, however, the one that matters, is the survival of our species and our planet. There are too many of us. We are destroying our home. Space is the only truly safe place for many industrial processes. It's a source of new building material. Ultimately, we will perish like brewer's yeast, poisoned by our own waste products if we can't go someplace where they can be contained.

If the moon landing had been a hoax, the temptation to tell would have been too much for any normal person to resist, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:35 AM

I believe that temptation to tell can be bought if the price is right. Many have bought off silence from others in the past. Thanks for your views on Political and objective aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:56 AM

I've never understood the practical value in space travel. If somebody could please explain the "benefits to mankind" of the billions of money spent then I'm willing to listen.
That is, explain without shouting !.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:58 AM

Space travel is exciting and exotic and educational and gives us something to conquer.

Nonetheless, all that money would do more good if science and governments spent it developing ways of providing health, education, and environment needs. I'm not so naive to think that the money WOULD go to those needs, or for that matter that war expenses would either, but as a species, we sure have our piorities fucked up. Our world is polluted, chemical and oil dependent, diseased, paved over, crime ridden, warring, and gasping for life.

The hope we get from space travel seems like empty promises to me.

NOW I'm depressed.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: MMario
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM

all that money would do more good if science and governments spent it developing ways of providing health, education, and environment needs

actually - the money spent for space travel HAS gone a long way towards providing research into health, education, environmental concersn, manufacturing, and many many many new products. There are literally thousands of products that would probably NOT have been developed if not for the space program - and many thousands more that have been developed from THOSE products and processes. Plus the income and revenue from the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM

I truly believe that the necessary advances in the fields I mentioned would be possible without the expense and distraction of space travel, but that they don't happen because there isn't the will without the glory of space travel. Sure there have been benefits, but do they outweigh the liabilities, could there be better return on the dollar? The income and revenue argument could apply if we were as anxious to solve our problems as we are to get off the planet.

Much the same arguments are put forth in support of the war machine and sports car racing. I still don't buy into it.

In short, we don't NEED the space programs to help us solve our earthbound problems. Some of us WANT space to cure our ills, others realize that Earth will benefit from the spin-offs as a secondary concern not the paramount goal. We don't yet feel the urgency of our situation enough to make the research and development happen sans the glory of space travel.

Btw...How many of those products of space programs are actually good for the planet and its people? How many are toxic, nonbiodegradable, unstorable? How much of the good stuff isn't being put to peaceful and healthy uses, shared with the rest of mankind.

"Giant leap for mankind"? Okay, but how have we reversed the degradation of Earth, specifically? Is there less poaching, fewer landmines, less pollution, less oil dependency, higher education standards in impoverished (and other) countries, better health where it's most needed, fewer toxins which can't be safely moved (think train and ship accidents), disease control? Would it be worse with no space programs...only if none of its resouces were diverted and no other measure were taken to help ourselves. How does it promote tolerance, understanding, peace (think Reagan's starwars programs)?

I don't think the world is a better place to live now than it could be if we realized we don't need the space programs to make it better.

My 2 cents, Canadian funds, not adjusted for space-race inflation.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

No it was not a hoax. We chose to go the moon as a measure of human accomplishment, and we did. I recommend you fond and listen to the oft-repeated speech by John Kennedy, who explained it perfectly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:56 AM

I was more than that. If humans give up on the idea of reaching the stars, of exploring space, of 'finding' new worlds (sounds like an episode of Star Trek with THE William Shatner), then we throw away the dreams of the future. My daughter really wants to go to Mars. It is a dream she has had since she was three or four and first found out it was there. She works hard at her maths and sciences, studies the sky, reads about everything to do with astronomy, takes a martial art to keep in shape, and has as her heroes those people who have risked their lives to venture beyond the bonds of Earth. As adults, we know the odds of that dream becoming a reality, but she is almost an adult, and she won't give up the dream. Do I continue to encourage her? Damn right. To quote Blish, "They Shall Have Stars."

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:57 AM

Sorry, should be 'It was more than that.'

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM

Noah, Kennedy was wrong, as surely was Queen Isabella of Spain. Think of the money she could have saved and lavished on more balls, luscious dinners etc, providing more work for serfs. Or she could have spent it on much-needed defense projects, protecting the country against the Moors.

But no, she went and funded Columbus' crackpot idea of an expedition instead. And he was wrong, the Indies were not that way and he did not prove that the earth was not flat. Why, he risked losing all five ships over the world's rim.

And what did he achieve? Jack shit. Where is the benefit to mankind? Just potatoes, tobacco, curare and a few piddly medicines. The Spaniards never got the quantity of gold they expected, so it was all a failure. Who can say the world is a better place now for the discovery of America? Osama Bin Laden for one would disagree.

Or perhaps it was all a hoax, and America does not exist. After all, temptation to tell can be bought if the price is right. I bet you there's bugger all West of Ireland and Columbus just made the whole thing up.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Well said, Bruce.

Mankind is going to expand and grow to the limits of the Solar SYstem. Once there, he will figger a way to makew the leap to another system. It may take a century at the edge, but it will come assuming the species survives.

If the United States, for example, does not continue to make the leading developments occur in this area, they will be made by India, China, France, or god-knows-who. One way or another they will occur.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Noah should be "Nah"

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM

Which was my convoluted way of agreeing with brucie, of course.
The day I stop dreaming I deserve to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:05 PM

Evkarisato El Gerko!! LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

In looking at the federal budget, you are ALWAYS going to have the "What you're doing is waste; the money would be better spent on what I want done."

This is the nature of politics: The struggle of one or another person or group to control the power that resides in the association of a number of persons." And by "number of persons" I mean from two persons up to the entire population of Earth. That struggle, I repeat, is what politics is.

Jimmy Jones and Mary Doe want to go to a movie. He wants to see a shoot-em-up, and she wants to see a romantic movie. (Or maybe he really wants to stay home and spend the time in bed.) The push and pull by which they make a decision is politics! Each wants to control the power that resides in their association.

This is no different in nature from the national goals/budget discussion about scientific expenditure.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

El Greko: Columbus' 5 ships?

Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria and... ?



Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: freightdawg
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:06 PM

Not sure about the fifth, but the fourth was the Enterprise, with Capt. James T. Kirk at the helm, aided superbly by Mr. Spock and Dr. "Bones" McCoy.

Beam me up, Scotty.

"Aye, Cap'n, but I dinno' if she'll hold together much longer!"

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

The money spent on the space program is inconsequential next to the money we already spend on education, 'saving' the 'environment' (what a bunch of tree-hugger, bleeding-heart BS THAT is!) developing medicine, education means, manufacturing, etc...

And well, giving that our time on this little ball of rock is absolutely finite, getting off it HAS to be a priority....

Because nothing's gonna save us but us....

Read Marshal T Savages book,
"The Millennial Project : Colonizing the Galaxy in Eight Easy Steps", or visit the foundations web site @...


http://www.millennial.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

Wonderful story about Columbus, El Greko! LOL!

the negative view of why man went to the moon:

It was done for political prestige. Cold war politics. Had to show that the USA was superior to a bunch of godless Communists!!!

It was done in order to gain a potential military advantage in space. He who can base strategic weapons on the moon and in orbit has a theoretical advantage over he who cannot...or who is less good at it.

the positive view of why man went to the moon:

It is natural that we should wish to explore and understand the Universe around us. Going to the moon was one more great accomplishment in doing that. And there are further such accomplishments to come...not only in space, but in the depths of the ocean, the interior of the Earth, and the depths of the human soul and psyche.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: s6k
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:42 PM

could have been faked. there is actually some pretty good evidence to support it

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

No there isn't... the 'evidence' of the moon landing being faked is almost as big a pile of bull-flop as the idea that we can 'save' the 'environment'

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

Why could it not have been faked....did you see the film "Capricorn one"? where did the idea come from??

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:08 PM

Oh, it could have been all right, but it wasn't. Almost anything can be faked, given present media and technology.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:27 PM

To miss-quote Edmund Hilary " Because it was there".

One of the problems I encounter politically here in a little valley in old South Wales, is the "Not invented here" attitude. ie unless I can relate it to the local enviroment, its not worth doing.

No let us explore, I suspect the cost of NASA is far less than the money that Shrub and friends waste on thier big business paymasters.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:31 PM

And people will probably go to Mars one day for the same reason...because it's there. It's really quite irresistible, given the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

NASA has requested about 17 billion over the next five years. Sounds like lots until one compares it with the cost of warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

I will likely be dead by then, LH, but I truly hope my daughter is on that mission.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM

"Oh, it could have been all right, but it wasn't."

I didn't think that pedantic fact was worth mentioning...

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:41 PM

I hope that all my nieces and nephews are on the mission. I hope that my family's genetic materials ride out and onward yet.

If you doubt that spinoffs from the space program, you'd best log off Mudcat and turn off you computer, 'cause if it wasn't for the space program you'd be using Big Iron instead of PC and you'd likely not be posting -- IF the Internet existed at all.

I will make an offer to anyone who was alive between the time Sputnik I was orbited and July 20, 1969: I will refund to you, or donate to the cause of you choice, the amount the US space program cost the average citizen of the US during that time IF you will swear and sign a contract to the effect never to again use anything that is a spinoff of the Space Program.

Now, in order to be fair, here are some things you'll be giving up:

Personal Computers
Colorization of black and white movies
"Sound Guard" record cleaner
Solar powered calculators
Aluminized bags for snack food
Weather satellites
Halogen lights for cars
Sports domes
Microwave Ovens
Pocket calculators
Phone calls by satellite
"Mylar" balloons
"Blue Blocker" sunglasses               
Digital watches and thermometers
"DirecTV", "Dish Network", etc
"Kevlar" for bullet proof vests
"Mini Mag" flashlights                                                                  
Fiber optics for phone calls
"Vortec" engines in GM cars
"Ovation" guitars and helicopter blades
Pacemaker batteries that last 20 years and can be recharged through the skin.
Compact Disks
M R I medical scanners
Electronic ignition in automobiles
Laser scanners in stores
"Bulb Miser" devices for long life light bulbs
Weather Maps on television
Juice boxes for "Hawaiian Punch", etc
"The Patch" medical device
Breathing systems for Mt. Everest climbers, Scuba divers and firefighters
"Flexon" eyeglasses and dental braces
Cellular phones and beepers
Cable Television, H B O, Showtime, etc
Sunglasses that block 99% of U. V. light                        
Pens that write upside down and under water
Anti corrosive paint for bridges and boats                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
Scratch resistant coatings on glasses
Football helmets for the NFL
GPS Navigation Systems
Cordless vacuums, etc.
Aerodynamic bicycle wheels
Thermal gloves and boots
Joystick controllers
Computer controlled automobile engines
CDs
...and a whole bunch of medical stuff that's not mentioned, including the things used in laproscopic surgery and CAT scans.

Okay, who's ready to take me up on my offer?

Another hint: I already know what it will cost me....

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:05 PM

Clinton - Yeah...? Well, I don't think your response was either.


Rapaire - I'd give up all that stuff for a sumblime sense of belonging... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:07 PM

Damn! I meant "sublime".

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

sublime
sublemon
subtangerine
subgrapefruit

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:50 PM

LH, you're on Mudcat, where you belong -- thanks to spinoffs from the space program.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

Georgiansilver

I know, you're just trying to emulate the success of my 'UFO' thread... I'm still winning!

And as to the faked moon landings - I discussed in another thread the wonderful French TV documentary that Kubricks widow participated in - incidentally many of the current big names in politics - advisors, appointed ones - not elected ones - willingly appeared in it too! You see Kubric was able to borrow that very low light level lens from NASA to shoot a movie by candlelight becuase he had used the set of 2001 to fake the moon landings!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:29 PM

You see, Nigel? Columbus lost two ships over the edge of the world, that's why you never heard of them. It's a cover up.
Anyway, I don't believe in letting facts get in the way of a good story...

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:51 PM

Because we saw how pristine an environment there was on the moon and Clint's ancestors said why should the earth be the only f'd up thing in the solar system.

Clint, from a dedicated professional tree hugger (the gov't pays me for it anyway)it isn't about "saving the environment" but seeing to it that laws are followed to prevent further "Love Canals" etc. I know for a fact that without the laws and regulations concerning the pollution of the environment that the industrial processes necessary for our current life styles would generate far more pollution to the environment than is necessary. I know for a fact that without these laws and regulations that the industrial complex would willingly dump their "unprofitable" waste streams directly into the environment. I've seen it with my own eyes at facilities where they thought we weren't watching. And the environment that we are all wasting our time saving is the environment of clean air, clean water and clean land. Is your house a toxic waste dump? Should we allow others that are profiting from the sale of their items to destroy that which belongs to all? I know that they'll be the only ones that could afford air filters, water filtration and the best land left on which to live if we did.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 12:09 AM

Pristine an environment???

Give yer head a shake...

Dead is more like it...

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 02:40 AM

A complete hoax.

The film footage is remarkably similar to the set of the movie First Men On The Moon which came out a few years earlier.

Nixon, the president at the time was a proven liar' The flag flutters, although the moon is windless. Cold war was the motive. Hardly anyones been there since. You have motive from day one.
All this so called space travel is merely orbitting around the earths outer edge. We'd burn up if we went any further.

The biggest lies are always the most believable.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 02:52 AM

Isn't "First Men On The Moon" the one made by the famous Russian Director?

"We'd burn up if we went any further."
That's because we would get closer to the sun. Simple - go there at night!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: GUEST,harlowpoet
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:08 AM

As a kid, I was told the moon was made of cheese. I find that a far more believable hypothesis.

Even if we could go there, which we can'(, isn't polluting one planet enough already?

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:41 AM

Georgiansilver

I know, you're just trying to emulate the success of my 'UFO' thread... I'm still winning!


Foolestroupe..Sorry my friend but cannot allow to to elevate yourself to the dizzy heights of having given me the will to emulate your UFO thread....I started this as a way of searching for answers to something that has puzzled me for some time....nothing more.. However. If you wish to treat this as some sort of competition, I would be happy to start yet another thread which will give people a huge appetite for providing answers and make a challenge to your considered superiority. The challenge for this thread was to provide me with some answers, which, fortunately I seem to be getting.
Best wishes to you in your personal battle with me and I hope you keep winning...I am really not too bothered either way

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM

And the Man on the Moon is Elvis discuised as a Yetti.
Well, not so very much disguised, really...

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Sooz
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:01 AM

The American space programme spent an enormous amount of money developing a pen that could write upside down while the Russians used a pencil. More than one way to skin a cat?

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:11 AM

Yes, but think of the mess the wood shavings make when you have to sharpen the pencil, and the tress you have to cut, and the lead you have to mine....I am sure the Australians are grateful for the invention.

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Pied Piper
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:52 AM

The sad reality is that long before humans have explored the solar system and set up sizable colonies on Mars the present Ecological, Economic and Political crisis will (if we're not very careful, and we're not) have caused our extinction.
Of cause there's no way we could destroy all life, and it's just possible that anther species might reach our level of intelligence and again look with awe, out into the vastness of space, but I think the odds make it unlikely.
You would think that we would learn from the un-imaginably small amount of the Universe that is us, and how venerable we already are to processes absolutely beyond our own control that intelligent life is very unlikely and we should cherish it not trash it for the short-term gains of a small minority.

Viking proverb
"Pissing in your boots doesn't keep your feet warm for long"

Sad (some of the time), but still proud to be Human.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 06:12 AM

Sooz, you are repeating an urban legend: see this old thread.

Who really thinks the moon landing was faked can look at the arguments and links in the old thread Did We really land on the Moon?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 08:40 AM

Because it was there!
We need challenges - look around you for what happens when we don't have any...

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

Damn straight, Tracey!

Subject: RE: BS: Man went to the moon, but why???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:38 AM

No matter what the impetus - war, ecology, or simple curiosity, basic research always ends up making some kind of profit. It may take a while, but it happens.