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BS: Any dog trainers out there?
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BS: Any dog trainers out there? |
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Subject: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:14 PM Sigh...........hate to clutter the board up, but am asking advice from everyone out there. My problem is: unleashed, aggressive, pit type dogs. In this case, specifically: staffordshire terriers. We were walking our little LEASHED dogs on the beach, when we saw 3 unleashed staffies accost a lab type. Pretty major scuffle, so we picked up our little dogs. Then, they swarmed around us. I repeatly requested that the owners control their dogs, to which they laughed and made jokes about puppy chow. One staffie held my gaze, was in a clearly aggressive posture, so i wound up using pepper. This was not my choice, i felt that i was in danger. The dog is simply stronger, and has far better reflexes than i do. Sure was..........the dog left, then we had the owner to deal with. So, there is the scenario..........how to better handle that kind of situation in the future? How to defuse? Have advice from some dog trainers but am pretty shook. Any help would be greatly appreciated. (apologies in advance to my "pit type" phrase. Was the only descriptive thing i could think of for that class of dog. corrections appreciated) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:44 PM I'm not going to get into the "pit bulls are/aren't inherently dangerous" argument. Maybe the breed just appeals to really screwed-up asshole people like the one who owns the dogs in this story. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:11 AM Sorry Bee Dubb - yAll,
Could not connect to YOUR posted links. As the proud-parent of a PIT....they are commendable in their behavior....and much less aggressive than Dalmations....particularly, after the PIT's nuts have been clipped...and fed back to them in doggy chowder over a six month period.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:49 AM Well hell, try this one. Same story, different newspaper. But what it doesn't tell you (that the story with the bad link did) is that the guy is also being brought up on federal charges for threatening a postal worker. He threatened to kill the postman who was trying to get the dogs to release his kid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: jacqui.c Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:01 AM Kendall here, I have had many dogs over the years, and, although I have never owned a pit bull or a Rotweiller, I have been around these breeds. My brother had a pit bull, and she was as friendly and gentle as any Golden retriever I ever met. I believe it is not the breed, but rather the owner who is to blame. I don't know where Gypsy lives, but in my part of the country, that idiot dog owner would be short one dog in a case like you just mentioned. One of my other brothers used to walk every day, and he always carried a golf club. A woman asked, "what is the club for," and he said "dogs". She said "That's cruel" he said, "not if they stay on the f*****g porch" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Georgiansilver Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:13 AM Get yourself a long nosed, long tailed terrier and fight back I say. It is bigger and stronger than pit bulls, German Shepherds, Rottweilers etc. All other dogs are scared of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:54 AM If in UK report to police who have considerable powers under several Acts. Check the site (I hope I remember this) www.doglaw.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM You could try "shaping" the dogs' behaviour. For this, you need to bring with you a packet of hot dogs cut up small. When the dogs swarm around you, ignore them until one of the dogs stops hassling you for a moment. Throw it a bit of hot dog. When it stops again, throw it another bit. When any of the others stops, throw it a bit of hot dog. This way you're reinforcing silence and good behavior. Karen Pryor (read her book Don't Shoot the Dog, about behavioural science and animal (and human) training) can go into a dog shelter full of barking dogs and have the whole place silent in 15 minutes using this method. As for the owners, you can do the same: ignore them until they show any sign of politeness, then give a big smile, and so on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: jacqui.c Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM Pit Bulls are not afraid of anything' and they are almost impervious to pain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:37 PM "If a dog threatens you, call him to you. He has no reason to obey you." (Henry Thoreau) I have used that method successfully many times. As for what Gypsy went through, I'm not sure what I'd do. Maybe handing both little dogs to my companion would free me to take action against the marauding dogs. The dog owners were reprehensible but arguing with them could be dangerous, if only because their dogs could pick up on my anger against them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: GUEST,Melani Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM Gypsy, be very careful in a situation like that. A small animal can be seen as prey in a lot of cases, and I think what you did was right. I probably would have called the police afterwards, as well, given the owner's attitude. When we brought our newborn daughter home, my otherwise friendly and well-socialized terrier made it clear he thought she was for him. We had a few little talks, one of which involved throwing him about ten feet across the room when he made a threatening move toward her (actually, he behaved as he would have if I had come too near his food, which rather unnerved me). He was the best dog I ever had and I loved him, but I never left him alone with my kid until she was bigger than he was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: ranger1 Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM Gypsy, my grandmother has a solution for problem dogs. It happens to be an iron-shod walking stick. Many dogs are afraid of sticks and will go away on their own, and the ones who don't, Grammie smacks on the snout. As a former owner of a pit mix, I find them to be loyal and loving, WITH PROPER SOCIALIZATION! Sorry about shouting, but it gets to me. I know more people who have been severely bitten by labs and lab mixes than any other breed. I think it is more that when people and other animals are attacked by pits and rotties, the damage is more severe and tends to be more publicized. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM GREAT responce JTT I agree - pits feel no pain - and they can be one of the strongest willed creatures on the earth - mine has ripped apart two different gates - trying to get back INTO the yard - after he had bullnosed - cut - scrapped himself getting out. To place Georgian Silver's comment into context you need this:
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: LilyFestre Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:41 PM My first question to you is where do you live? The US or otherwise? I had a similar situation...kind of. I was out walking one of our labs (we raise labs, used to do some breeding) when we came upon a woman with 2 Rottweilers. Had I seen the dogs, I would have crossed the street or turned around...I'd just rather avoid them all together. One of the Rotties broke his leash and went after my lab. Homer was bit in the process and so was I. The lady had to jump on her dog for us to get away. Now, I live in the state of Pennsylvania. In this state, the owner MUST be in control of their dog AT ALL TIMES. This means in yard or on the street. If you felt threatened by this dog, you are well within your rights to do whatever you need to to protect yourself. In my situation, because the woman left and I had no information about the dogs, I had to sweat out having a rabies test done. I had gone to the hospital to have my bites tended to and by law, I had 10 days to find the owner and get vet records so as to avoid the rabies shot series. We called all over. Not many folks around here have TWO rotties. Eventually, we ended up placing an ad on the local cable channel for this woman to PLEASE call. She had her friends call and laugh at me but wouldn't give me any information. On the last day, this woman's sister called me and gave me the name and the number of the owner of the rotties. I promptly called dog control who jumped on the situation. The dog had not had it's shots but was taken and observed for 10 days only to be returned to its owner. Turns out the woman was afraid her dogs would be taken and destroyed. I think the dog that was unprovoked and attacked my dog and myself should have been...at the very least....taken away from this woman who obviously had NO control over her dog. I'm interested to hear how things turn out for you. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:42 PM Karen Pryor's book that JTT referenced should be a must read along with the Monk's book on training. Sadly we aren't always equipped to handle these things (I rarely have a large number of treats). It has become a bigger problem than ever before and I am of the opinion that dog ownership needs to be licensed, not the dog. If you cannot control the dog and it isn't socialized......or you're just one of those moronic assholes who prop up their self esteem with a dog breed.........you should not be allowed to own one. Too many problems to ever enforce this including what do you do with all the dogs.......... Hey Garg......Man, you're about to join the "Art and Spaw Club of Rehashed Bad Jokes." That one was being told when the wise men showe up in Bethlehem, except I think it was an Israelite Dog fight then.... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:42 PM Well, the current words of wisdom from a local trainer are: When in a situation like this, turn one quarter turn, breaking eye contact, and remain absolutely still until the dog leaves. Apparently, i was exhibiting aggressive behaviour by having locked eye contact. My feeling at the time, was if i backed down, i would really get creamed. Mind you, i have no prejudice against pit type dogs (i get so DRATTED tired of being pc!) For that matter, used to have a doberman, who also has a bad rep. BUT, this type of dog IS bred for fighting, DOES consider other animals prey, and top breeders will tell you to ALWAYS keep them leashed. Our final decision was to lay low for a few weeks, and not walk our pomeranians publicly. We will let the $%^*@#* kids cool off, and forget what we and our dogs look like. Would be just my luck, to make the normal 2 mile circuit during my lunch break, when they were driving by. Oh yeah, i live in CA, in a county with dog leash laws. Unfortunately for our county, (as we learned with dog molested livestock) this law is rarely enforced, because we are the second poorest county in the state. Not that this state has any money. So my recourse is self defense/diffusion, not the law. Personally? I hope that someone from the paranoid city encounters them.........who carries a gun, and ends the whole situation right there. This is not a dog who will be trained, socialized, or cared for. Not with that 100$ looking spiked collar, anyway. Yeah, i'm bitter. This shouldn't happen in my little town. Thanks for listening, for the support, and for the advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: JenEllen Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:59 PM Hi Gypsy, Considering they aren't your dogs, there really isn't any use in trying to train them. The owner should be your target. Animal control everywhere is feeling the pinch, financially, but if you keep calling, they'll have to do something. Until that time, walk your dogs somewhere else. The Guest post above about calling the dogs to you? I've found that works really well. I live in an area swarming with uncared for Pits and Mixes. And I totally agree with "There are no bad dogs only bad owners", however, dogs like that want an element of surprise, and the one thing you can do cut them off at the pass is to simply see them, make eye contact, TELL them you see them in a strong voice ("I see you...GO HOME") and then pick up a rock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM Good idea, JenEllen. Might try that one. Really, am not trying to train them, just want to find a good way to get out of the situation without 1. Having MY dog killed, 2. Having my husband get into a fight with the owner, if i have to spray his dog. Oh yeah, to the uninformed: You want pepper STREAM, not spray. Spray can backfire in any breeze, and nail YOU. Anyone have experience with the sonic gizmos? Might give our own dogs a headache, but again, better that than dead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: JenEllen Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:10 PM Yeah, in that case, the best thing to do is get the owner. Do you live in an area where the animals have to be licensed? Call the cops on the license. If it makes the city some money in licensing fees, you can bet they'll listen to you! *g* Sonic gizmos won't work. When dogs get in that 'kill or be killed' mode, nothing short of a steamroller is going to stop them. Imgaine dogs fighting, and you pointing a garage door opener at them. Same scenario. If you have alerted the police, then you are well within your rights to protect yourself. Sometimes overkill works. I once had a neighbor with an angry Rottie who chased me every morning. She saw me several times chucking rocks at her dog. The day I started carrying a chunk of wood with nails sticking out of it is the exact day she chose to start fencing her dog. Problem solved. *bg* I do wish you luck with this. Every dog needs a good safe place to go for a walk (and good people to take them). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:15 PM You have a point. The two legged beasties were certainly surprised at a Pomeranian owner spraying their "viscious" dogs with pepper stream! If they don't retaliate, might have even taught them a lesson. Am going to the cop shop for a similar discussion, and state parks as well. Next step: plan on talking to our local publisher, and see if i can get an article published, without my name on it. Unfortunately, my fear in this day and age is retaliation. But i do need to get community involvement on this.........i live in too nice a place to have problems like this. Thanks for the good words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Mudlark Date: 21 Apr 04 - 12:35 AM Hi Gypsy... I truly sympathise. I've had the same problem, live in a rural CA area with lots of dogs, many of them unfenced. They don't bother me when I walk but I've had to stop walking my corgis. They are a little too big to pick up, even if I just walk one at a time, and trying to break up even a 2-dog fight is difficult. Back before the neighborhood filled up with uncontrolled dogs I used to walk all 3 of my dogs at once on a 3-way leash...it was great fun for us all. But after some very traumatic run-ins I never walk the dogs. Luckily, I've got 5 (very well fenced) acres for them to romp around on, and I spend 2 or 3 long ball throwing sessions with them every day to make sure they get lots of exercise. I agree with Jen-Ellen. The sonic things do work for getting my dogs to quit barking...but they are useless against a charging dog. At first I tried talking to the neighbors, was stonewalled, and finally when the dog right across the street starting attacking me as well as the dogs, called the county. And got embroiled in a neighbor war that ended very badly. It's been my experience that the county officials just don't have the manpower to deal with this sort of thing so basically just ignore it. The law says the dogs have to be restrained to their own property, but there is virtually no enforcement. I hope you can work something out. I know I really miss walking my dogs...and I know they miss it too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: ranger1 Date: 21 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM As a park ranger, I have an ongoing battle getting people to comply with our leash law. At one park I worked at, I broke up three dog fights in one day. All were started by off-leash dogs harassing leashed dogs. I get really frustrated with the whole situation. A leashed dog stands no chance when jumped by an unleashed animal. I was also bitten from behind by a black lab one day when I was cleaning out a drainage ditch. He was with a husky and neither were on leashes. The owners were a good five minutes down the trail and had taken the collars off so that we wouldn't hear the tags jingle and bust them for having loose dogs. The first thing that they said to me was "Oh, but he's never done that before!" and the second was "there was nobody here." Then they couldn't understand why I evicted them from the park. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 21 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM Mudlark, you must live in the same neck of the woods that i do! Right down to we have two corgis in our town. (Which is a high percentage in a town of 1000) We also have deer fenced acreage, but himself and i like to walk for our excercise too. Sigh. Will most likely avoid that beach for a while, and certainly never go there on sunny weekends again. Too many people. Ranger1, my sympathy is on your side. We live in a major state park area, and you guys work way too hard. And always seem to be on my side, and help me when i need it. Thanks for doing the work you do. Local dogtrainer (wonderful person!) brought me a bunch of xeroxes from a book from an author: Turid Rugaas, who writes very lucidly. Her books are textbooks for dogtrainers. So, off i go to Alibris to find a copy. Every one, thanks for letting me vent, giving support, and giving advice! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: ranger1 Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:56 PM Good news on my front, Gypsy. The manager of my park came back today from the monthly regional managers' meeting with the news that our Bureau of Park and Lands is starting a new educational campaign geared toward the leash law in Maine state parks. We will have LARGE educational posters, as well as a supply of business card sized cards to hand out to people who we come into contact with that have their dogs off leash. We are hoping that a friendly approach and the card as a reminder will help. I believe they are also thinking about PSA's on TV, as well. BTW, are your poms toys or full-size? My adopted grandma had toys all her life until the last dog, which was a full sized pom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Any dog trainers out there? From: Gypsy Date: 25 Apr 04 - 10:44 PM Now, if you could just have the literature from your coast on my coast! That is terrific news! But with our not so beloved gov, Arnie, i don't think that will happen any time soon. The girls are respectively: Satori, 4 1/2 pounds, and Tanjit (the old lady of 13) 8 pounds. Still laying low, might have a lead on the owner of the staffies. The prognosis is grim........apparently a real troublemaker, with nothing to lose. Sigh. So, i pray alot, and keep an eye on the court report in our local paper, to see when he goes back into jail. |
