BS: General Strike in British Columbia

Subject: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 04 - 01:46 PM

It was bound to happen. We have a government who is intent on privatizing and contracting-out many jobs and services in B.C. They are also intent on busting all of the unions. They have passed legislation that essentially tore up the contract of teachers in the province. They have made deep cuts to health, education and social services in an attempt to provide the infrastructure necessary to host the Olympics. All of this while cutting taxes to the highest income earners. Of course it is the elderly, the disabled, and the children that suffer most.

Starting Monday clerical and support workers will protest in solidarity with the health workers. On Tues. another union joins. On Wed., another union and so on. The Canadian Federation of Labour is headed for a general strike. This hasn't happened for twenty years.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 May 04 - 03:01 PM

Good on you folks. Would that my labor movement would have acted in this way early on. Canada has always had labor laws that I admired, until the recent conservative attacks on it. Take it to the streets, my friends, and if you need a good singer of songs to come up and do a few for the strikers, get in touch.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 May 04 - 03:20 PM

Bravo! It was a long, hard struggle for labour unions to ever be established, given the fact that rich business owners and government colluded against them and hired thugs and killers to beat them up and shut them down, and routinely demonized them as "Communists" in the press.

Meanwhile, the real Communists (in Russia and China) were ruthlessly suppressing any formation of independent unions in their corner of the World through similar vicious tactics. How ironical!

I hope this stupid neoconservative government in BC gets kicked out soon just like its recent counterpart in Ontario did.

Privatization does not increase efficiency or improve service...it simply enriches the rich cronies of those in power and robs the public. And then the prices go way up. Every time.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 04 - 05:18 PM

Same damn thing in Alberta.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: mack/misophist
Date: 02 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Eventually, I think all of North America is going to have to do this. Good for you for being one of the first. One thing the USSR did right was having serious penalties for economic crimes. The US has about 50,000 executives that need to be in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 04 - 11:26 PM

Bill 37 which was passed by the legislature has effectively eliminated the right to strike. Teachers brought this issue before the UN who ruled that it contravened our right to assembly. However, the B.C. government is ignoring this and continues to take us to court (their court and their laws).

As of this morning, the BC court ruled that the health care workers were in contempt of court and ordered them back to work. They must return to work but it looks like the other unions are still going to walk out one at a time (since we no longer have the right to strike, it is being called a day of protest). This protest involves a huge segment of the work force, including all school personnel, public transportation, doctors and health care workers and social services. The wood workers are also joining in this protest.

Don't you wish there was some mechanism whereby Canada and the U.S. could walk off the job to protest the war in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Amos
Date: 02 May 04 - 11:32 PM

I don't see that Russia has achieved much by criminalizing economic offenses, but maybe they haven't been enforcing it....I'm really not up to date on the state of their economic affairs.

I think striking against the war would be a helluva idea, although I am sure it would be labeled treason if any defense industries were affected.

A

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:20 AM

A strike against a defense industry would be labeled as such, I'm afraid. In fact, a strike in many areas would be -- think of the UMW of A strike during WW2. Strike leaders would be branded "terrorists" and jailed sine die, and the strikers as well.

Toothless unions in the US, empty shells of their former selves....

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Rapair is absolutely right on this - Toothless unions in the US, empty shells of their former selves..

Goes for Canada, too.

Last night a settlelment was achieved. 15% rollback on wages of HEU members! This in exchange for a reduction of the number of jobs to be contracted out. Such a deal!

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 04 - 01:28 PM

What bullshit, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:26 PM

inasmuch as I dislike the Campbell govt. the Health care workers
even with the latest cut still have the best benefits and pay than anywhere in Canada, much less the private sector.
If I had 9 weeks vacation, 18sick days Id fight for it too.

when my dad was in ICU after heart surgery, I remember sitting there watching some guy with the broom in his armpit swing around the room once - $20 an hour for that?

same goes for a physiotherapist friend who while visiting her husband in the hospital, and disgusted with the filth ended up putting on gloves and doing the cleaning herself in his room.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:46 PM

Hey petr - What do you do for a living? If you tell me I'm sure I can criticize the way you do your job and how much you get paid, too.

The problem is that Vancouver has such a high cost of living that it is very difficult to get by on the same wages as the rest of Canada. Another thing - Do you have a family to raise? Do you have rent to pay?

$20.00??? Where did you get that figure? How many years seniority do you need to get that? How many years before you are entitled to 9 weeks of vacation and 18 days sick pay? You make it sound as if everyone in that union gets that kind of pay.

As far as the filth - lets not forget that this is after many, many cut backs. Do you honestly think that privatization will improve that? Don't forget, you get what you pay for.

I think you are very young and very silly. Someday you will understand why workers need to stand together for decent wages and benefits. Unfortunately, that someday will probably happen when you see the abuse that occurs when the employer has all the power. Read your history!

People with attitudes like yours will return us to the days of low wages, no benefits, unsafe work conditions and very long hours. I suppose you agree with the new child labour laws as well.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:12 AM

The problem with strikes is the guy in the middle. I spent the last quarter of my senior year in college wondering if I would graduate because the college's janitorial and clerical workers were on strike.
The janitorial staff weren't recruited from among the town's best and brightest, and, to be honest, they didn't do a good job. So it was hard to sympatize.
Privatization sucks. So does having to repeat a year of school because your teacher went out on strike. Pity the poor guy in the middle.
When the UPS drivers went out I was with them 100 percent. But I still needed the package they were supposed to deliver, and it was a serious pain to have to go out to the depot and wait while the clerks found it. I wish they'd find a better way to settle labor disputes.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:23 PM

what do I do? I run a printing business which employs several people,
all of whom have been with us for 5 to 10 years. I pay them pretty much the same as I get paid - along with medical benefits.
In over 21 years of business Ive never laid or fired anyone. But there are times when I havent taken a paycheque.

when business is down as it has been the past 3 years, I have to scramble - I certainly dont have the option to block a road somewhere
to demand more money.

the last time I took a 3week vacation was 9years ago. Usually Im lucky if I can take one week at a time.
one of my friends who works for HRDC, once when inviting me for a hike on a non-stat holiday said - you own your business, why dont you take the day off. Thats the naivete and typical attitude of a govt worker, who doesnt run a business.

sure I have a family, and a mortgage to pay. As far as the stats
those were told to me a by a friend in HEU who drives a forklift in the warehouse - he knew very well the benefits and pay were good but also that the writing's on the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:16 PM

LadyJean - Did you have to repeat a year of school? Or did this just cause you a bit of worry. I'm sure it was nothing compared to those worried about their jobs.

I don't have much pity for the fact that you actually had to go to the depot to pick up a package. It was an inconvenience? Don't you think it is inconvenient for those who are in the union to lose their pay when striking or take a roll-back on their wages or lose their jobs entirely? Your inconvenience pales in comparison.

Petr - We are not talking about your private business. We are talking about workers in the public sector. Your employees can deal with you directly. In this case we are talking about public employees who are unable to negotiate with their employer face to face. Unions negotiate on behalf of their members.

My dad drove a forklift all of his working life. He was also on the grievance committee and heard many complaints of unsafe and unhealthy working conditions. As a result of his advocacy, the workplace is now a safer place. Yes, he was able to support his family on his wages. We were not, however, living high off the hog nor did we enjoy the many tax write-offs that businesses receive.

Did your friend also tell you that HEU includes medical technicians? These are the people that give you the CAT scans, x-rays, mammograms, lab test, etc. These people are now earning $2.00 - $4.00 less than their counterparts in Ontario and Alberta. Less money in a place where the cost of living is the highest in Canada. How long do you think they will stick around? Its your healthcare that is in jeopardy. Who will fill these positions when the highly qualified leave for greener pastures? Private companies, thats who.

Worst off are the HEU workers in rural B.C. The hospitals there are severely stressed already. Many of the housekeeping staff are single moms, immigrants and those with little education. With a cut in pay, the hardship imposed will inevitably be passed on to their families which will then be passed on to the educational system and social services which have already been cut to the bone.

Are you really so jealous that you would deny others a little dignity?

Please do not give me examples of those who are "slacking" on the job. Those people are everywhere - unionized or not. Its up to management to deal with that problem.

And another thing - vacation time varies according to position and seniority. One example doesn't mean much. As well, vacation time is all part of the negotiation. At the table, it is usually offerred in lieu of higher wages, pensions or benefits. You have to look at the whole picture.

Take a vacation before you are forced to seek medical attention because when you are in need, the quality of the services you seek will be far and few between.

And one more thing - Don't forget that when the public sector strikes or protests, it is not just their jobs they are trying to protect. They are on the inside looking out. They know how these cuts will effect you, the public. They are also looking after your best interests! If the public could get past their temporary inconvenience and stand behind the public sector workers, strikes and protests would end much sooner. The government uses you to bolster their arguments for draconian measures.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:02 PM

I agree that if it wasnt for unions and collective bargaining we'd all be working for peanuts. Both my parents were in the graphic arts union, but they also witnessed excesses on both sides.

where my father worked press-operators were earning $35/hr ($74,000 per year) and it wasnt enough, so they went on strike. Well over the next couple years -that printshop moved their equipment to a new plant in Nevada (since most of their business was US anyway) and shut down in Canada. Some of those press operators ended up at pioneer, printing envelopes for 12$ an hour and glad to have it.

over the last year I saw at least a dozen printshops close, for various reasons - economy downturn, technological change as well as less a shift to other advertising. Its unfortunate, but those people move on, why should govt employees have guaranteed job security when no one else does?

the 9 weeks vacation was mentioned by the Health minister, I dont know what average is or how it works out with seniority but
as far as Im concerned if they have more than 4 weeks theyre doing better than most others in the private sector.

(since its my tax money I have a right to know what they get)

and the number of weeks vacation and sick days (btw Ive taken maybe 10 over the last 15 years) has nothing to do with 'high cost' of living in the Lower mainland. Real estate may be high here but its high in Toronto as well, but it isnt in Nanaimo or Courtenay, so dont give me that rural communities sob story.

and that comment about business owners being able to enjoy tax writeoffs, is typical of someone who doesnt run a business. because first of all you have to make the money first, before you can write it off.

I dont buy that exodus crap either. Where will they go?
THe US? Even with the cuts they still have the highest pay and benefits in Canada.
Its just like the nurses who demanded wage parity with their American counterparts (or they will leave) but ask any of them if they want to have an American style private medical system? Dont think so.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:46 AM

Petr - I guess you missed this part: Did your friend also tell you that HEU includes medical technicians? These are the people that give you the CAT scans, x-rays, mammograms, lab test, etc. These people are now earning $2.00 - $4.00 less than their counterparts in Ontario and
Alberta. Less money in a place where the cost of living is the highest in Canada.

You continue to compare public employees to the private sector. Its apples and oranges. Do you want an American style medical system? If you don't support the HEU, that is exactly what you will get. You may pay less taxes but you will pay more for hospitalization and get less, guaranteed.

As far as the printing industry goes...their demise was the result of multinationals, not the unionized employees.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:58 AM

petr, what you fail to take into consideration is the fact that small business, in theory, has no income ceiling and the average wage earner in our society does. If it weren't for the incentivives of not being subject to an externally imposed ceiling, in regards to the rewards which can be garnered for exemplary commitment and dedication and the freedom from the elementary school authoritarianism, imposed upon most wage earners, most small business operators would not take the risks required or endure the hardships that are part and parcel of sticking our necks out in the market place.

That being said, there is a considerable number of trades and professions which are vital to our collective, social and economic well being, that can never be addressed by the small business community and consequently it comes as no great surprise that workers in those larger working environments, seek some semblance of the right to determine the worth of their efforts and their right to fair treatment.

This is not different from those of us in the land of small business/free enterprise who set our prices as we see fit and refuse to engage in commerce with those we consider to be unreliable, untrustworthy, too cheap to subsidize and last but not least, just too stupid to waste any time with. Please understand that this perspective comes leavened and perhaps informed by the reality of three decades of operating a small business (by choice) without a safety net, save for education and health care.

My strongly held belief as a small business person is that, I much prefer, to carry on my activities in a society where the majority actually earns enough to be able to participate fully as individuals capable of being consumers and subequently contributing to the economic health of the private sector and those public arenas which seek to find funding from the citizens of the society at large.

but I still hate the fact that I have to do GST calculations and act as the government's tax collector for no compensation whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:17 AM

Thanks, Metchosin,

You said it much better than I.

This is not an us against us situation. We are all living together in a society where we are interdependent economically. It is only when governments pit us against each other that we all loose. Remember it is an advantage for them to divide and conquer. It is also false economics.

I, for one, would gladly give up the tax break provided by Campbell's government if that money were to be returned to health, education and social services. I do not enjoy my good fortune when those around me are suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:29 PM

the bankruptcies in the printing industry had nothing to do with multinationals - but everything to do with technological change, an oversupply in a shrinking market - especially after 911.

with colour printing being done on smaller less expensive presses,
a number of big shops went under while smaller leaner printshops survived.

same thing happened in the pre-press industry 15 years ago.
There were specialized pre-press houses that did colour scanning with highly trained and highly paid technicians - and rightly so, because it took years of experience - but then they were replaced by with much cheaper computerized equipment. At the same the though there was a growth in the number of people doing graphic design.

why cant you compare public and private sector?,
traditionally the public workers have enjoyed better benefits and job security than the rest of us. If youre going to compare someone in Alberta then you should compare everyone.

sure I'd like for everyone to make more money and wed all be better off. Except it has to come from somewhere. 25% of your taxes go to pay interest on the national debt - due to decades of govt overspending - inasmuch I dislike the LIberals and their ill-advised
tax cut within a few days in office, the Federal govt cut the payments to the provinces years ago - the NDP had the same problem with the Health care contracts..

as far as whether the Medical Technicians pay difference in Alberta,
is what $36per hour compared to $38?, they also do better than the rest of the country. So what if real estate is higher in vancouver
its not much higher than toronto - its also a nicer place to live

(and real estate is not that high in the rural areas)

I dont even begrudge my friend getting 19$ an hour to drive a forklift.

But what does the number of vacation weeks have to do with the cost of living? Im sure that the average is far more than those in the private sector can hope for.

and I say again, the HEU and the Nurses union want to have the money as they do in the States - but they dont want an American style system.

and according to yesterdays news, in a worldwide study comparing medical systems, the US and Canadian ended up pretty much the same.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:03 PM

That argument has been around lots. I have heard it before. My answer has always been that if you find my job so attractive, get a degree and do the job. You'll be at the top of the pay scale in eleven years. You'll have the vacation period you long for and life will be good.

Incidentally, I calculated one year (my fourth of teaching) that I worked 2247 hours. That seems to work out to about 56 forty-hour weeks. I am not complaining about my pay or the hours. Just so you know.

PS I too am a teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:25 PM

Living in the US, I can't speak for Canada. I do know that the unions in the US seem to have devolved into squeaking mice compared to what they once were.

It was not ONLY the multinationals that did this. It was not ONLY the outrageous demands of some of the unions (and yes, I can cite chapter and verse on it). It was not ONLY the actions of Reagan firing the ATCs back in the '70s. It was not ONLY the criminals that had insinuated themselves in the US unions.

Like nearly everything else, the reasons are all of these and more. Complicated problems have complicated causes and complicated solutions. Only the simpleminded think otherwise.

Shooting every other person would solve the problems caused by overpopulation quickly and with relatively little expense. It is not, however, a viable solution to an extremely complex problem.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:08 PM

Gee brucie - only 2247 hours? Thats conservative.

...and petr, when everyone in the entire province is your boss (admin., school boards, provincial ministries, college of teachers, taxpayers and parents) you need July and Aug. or you would burn out trying to please everyone. How many bosses do you have?

I actually enjoy teaching, its the political flak and the jealousy regarding our time off that is irritating. Teachers have a huge responsibility and we need the support of the public just like the HEU does. Since the public doesn't seem to support us, we need to support each other.

I'd like to see if you could stand in my shoes for even one day (or the shoes of an LPN or a technician). Last week, four different children disclosed abusive situations in their homes (2 physical and 2 sexual). I know it sounds exagerrated but its true. How would you handle that? I handled it but now I need a vacation. I can hardly wait until July. If it weren't for that time, I would not have the time needed to "re-charge my batteries" and get ready for a whole new set of problems to be solved the next year.

I don't have the luxury of giving opinions about your job because its not open to public scrutiny. Sounds easy to me. Nobody to answer to but yourself. No responsibilities but to yourself. How much did you make last year? How much did your education cost? How many lives did you save or protect? Ask an LPN about his/her job. They are the ones that hold your hand when you're dying and there's no one else around.
Thanks for the support. I'll pass it on to the other teachers. Lets hope your children never need a little something extra from the teacher or the LPN (I'll also tell the HEU about your comments).

By the way, I also have a business. I don't make much money but the tax breaks make it well worth it! Don't try to tell me that you have no tax advantage.

So you have to collect and report PST and GST - Well I have to collect and account for school fees, class photos, field trips, and a number of other fund raisers. That not supposed to be part of my job either.

But I missed the most important difference between private business and public sector workers. You create and control your workplace, we don't.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:37 PM

give me a break dianavan,
no responsibilities except to myself? as a teacher you ought to know that my customers might disagree with that.
(easy? 60hr weeks, faster deadlines, lower prices, deadbeat customers)
and being lucky to take one or 2 weeks of a year, but its my choice)

Oh and I did work in the educational system for several years with
with mentally handicapped as well as, autistic kids, Ive had my share of dealing with kids who bite, bang their heads, smear shit all over the walls, so dont tell me about standing in your shoes. Quite a few of the educ. students who worked there on weekends didnt last more than a day.
Oh, and we didnt get the summer off to recharge.

hopefully the HEU will get the bill for the strike.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 12:16 AM

An education system that runs year round, Petr? An education system that employs education students? Where is this?

I think you missed the point about July and August. I don't get paid! It is not vacation time. It is a system designed for parents and kids - not the teachers. Many teachers work at other jobs in July and August. Teachers have nothing to say about the length of the school year.

You also missed the point about working conditions. You create your own working conditions. Public sector employees need the union to speak to management about their working conditions. Without them, we would have no say at all. Since it is the public (in my situation, children) that endure the same conditions, don't you think someone should be speaking up? Or do you want to leave all of that up to the government?

Take a holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:47 PM

its a residential school in ladner
thanks
Im taking a holiday in 2 weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:57 PM

petr - I hope you have a lovely time. Don't worry, there will always be more work when you return.

An old man once said to me, "when you retire, you will never say that you wished you worked harder or longer." I believe he is right.

I think most British Columbians are very hard workers. I think they probably need more time to enjoy this beautiful place that we've been blessed to inhabit. I also think that happy, rested and content employees make any system or business run more efficiently. I would hope that everyone in B.C. can be a productive member of society and make enough money to live on.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:02 PM

Lady Jean - The government should have ordered binding arbitration instead of legislating the HEU back to work. Who wants healthcare workers with low morale?

Petr - Seems, according to the latest poll, that about 25% of British Columbians agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: General Strike in British Columbia
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:06 PM

thanks,
agreed all points.
its good also to simplify, play music, art, putter in the garden,go hiking- activites not requiring a lot of money.
but thats probably another thread.