BS: Is the War Lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:54 AM

Here's an interesting article, written in February 2003: Smoke out 'militant Islam'

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Frankham
Date: 15 May 04 - 08:37 PM

The war was never won. It's stated goals were to democratize Iraq.
Good luck. Again, no one ever instituted democracy through the barrell of a gun. Even Hitler's Germany was not immediately democratized at the end of WWII. It took a while. The difference was that the international community was involved in repudiating Hitler. This helped the transition to democracy amd away from an exclusively occupied country. Russia and France were liberators there as well as many others. The so-called "coalition" is a joke. It consists of a few countries that are economically dominated by the interests of the Bush business community.

The UN can't undue the damage caused by Bush. The only way to solve the problem is for the occupier (Bush) to stand down and let the world community become involved in a transition government. As long as we have a crazed idealogue masquerading as a (p)resident, this can't be done. The formula is clear: God=America=George Bush. Unfortunately, many Americans are buying into this madness.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 06:39 PM

Martin (Canada's PM) has said that Canada will not provide troops for the war but if Iraq does take over the reigns on June 30, they will send troops for reconstruction and policing. Lets hope the Iraqis will tell the U.S. to go home at that time.

Just as I thought. The bad boys invade and destroy and then Canada comes along to mop up the mess. Does anyone see a pattern here?

My guess is also that the Canadian immigration policy will be expanded to include a sizable number of new Iraqi immigrants (refugees) - probably those with technical expertise.

Actually, the war has not been lost if it was about deposing Saddam. If the goal was to erradicate terrorism, yes. It has been lost. More importantly, the hearts and minds of U.S. citizen's have been lost. They have also lost many rights and freedoms and Canadian citizens are not far behind. There is no democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:57 PM

The issue of occupation is more complicated when it involves next door neiqhbours. For instance, the nation of Iraq could easily cease to exist were the Turks to again take the area over, as they once did before. A Turkish occupation could succeed (given sufficient ruthlessness and genocide). An American or British one cannot, in my opinion.

Yes, SOP, I expect the Isrealis will be left in their country. I have never expected otherwise. They are tremendously skilled at modern warfare and should be able to hold it, despite the wishes of certain Muslims to the contrary.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:49 PM

Segue here. I'm somewhat bemused at the sudden recognition that the numbers of Mexican immigrants, legal and otherwise, implanted into the whole American southwest is a form of justice. Another generation and the proportion between anglos and hispanics may be back about the same as it was before the Alamo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:19 PM

And all the Christian culture we need to know about is the Holocaust?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: S O P
Date: 15 May 04 - 01:47 PM

Good. I sure hope your locktite grasp on this fact means that Israelis will be left in their country, too.

And BTW there's a chance there are some Mexicans and Californians who will disagree with you on that last statement. Some Mexicans would say that the Yanks never went 'completely' home, and many Americans would say the Mexicans have taken a considerable part back.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 May 04 - 01:33 PM

Ah...I see that you are right, Wolfgang. "Amergin" is without italics. Hmmmm. What could this mean???

Now look, SOP, don't get yourself all worked up over nothing here. Are you under the false impression that I approve of people sawing other people's heads off or something? I just thought it was rather odd that you thought their "4 minute diatribe" was given for the prisoner's attention. People make such diatribes primarily for the sake of their own emotional venting and to stir up their loyal supporters, that's all. Watch Bush's next speech and you'll see the same dynamic in effect. It's boring, frustrating, and tedious for those who disagree with the speaker, but moving and inspiring to those who agree with him. :-)

By saying it's "their country" I mean this: One day there will be no American or British troops in Iraq, and the Iraqis will still be there. Just like Vietnam or Algeria or Mexico or a hundred other places.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 May 04 - 09:36 AM

why was your whole post in italics (Little Hawk)

Actually it isn't. Look again, one word is without italics.

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:09 AM

Not to worry-- if the war is lost, at least we'll still fighting among ourselves for years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: S O P
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:47 PM

thank you for informing me that it's 'their' country whatever that means. I thought I was making the point that killers could have shown personal sympathy and killed Berg without boring him first. I see now that I was simply showing cultural bias!

In past instances people in a similar vein have executed individuals on airliners, thrown old people in wheelchairs off of ships, and killed an old lady in a hospital bed in Uganda.

the observation that they're fighting us with everything at their disposal makes one glad that they don't have more at their disposal. It is a good idea to go after them now before they buy more and bigger weapons.

But wait, I thought it was an isolated terror cell of Al Qaeda and specifically NOT Iraq.

You sound way more confused than anyone in the government. Maybe that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:01 PM

SOP: All the Islamic culture we need to understand is that it's real clumsy to behead a guy with a dull knife. Makes you look slow and weak. And to bore the poor guy with a 4 minute diatribe in a language he couldn't even understand....

Well sure, man...people who lack a vast modern arsenal of nuclear weapons, B-52 squadrons, F-18s, aircraft carriers, and other such expensive killing machines are definitely "slow and weak" in terms of modern military striking power...which is why they do all they can by striking back in a far more primitive fashion at any individual Americans who are reachable. American Indians used to do the same sort of thing in wartime, not having gatling guns and artillery squads at their disposal. It's brutal, graphic, and ugly...but so is blowing up a house with a cruise missile.

As for the 4 minute diatribe, I suspect that was more for the benefit of other Iraqi and Arab listeners than for the poor guy who got his head cut off.

It isn't all about us, you see. It's their country, not ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:52 PM

You are so right, Wolfgang. :-)

But why was your whole post in italics?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: S O P
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:49 PM

Oh, crap, I'm so impressed. I like the way it jumps from the seventeenth century to the 20th in a paragraph, and blames the carter administration for letting the Shah go with no mention of how us screwed the iranians out of their democratic government for no good reason in the 50s. thank you ike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:26 PM

...on akenaton's request, here is more about the religion...

   Understanding Muslims

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: S O P
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:13 PM

All the Islamic culture we need to understand is that it's real clumsy to behead a guy with a dull knife. Makes you look slow and weak. And to bore the poor guy with a 4 minute diatribe in a language he couldn't even understand....


This thread should go back into the music lineup under

"CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN.........Chain of fools......."

Islamic Culture, Islamic Culture...... They stole the numerical system from the Indians, I guess that's ...."Saved by Zero"

And I always liked "Mohamed's Radio" and "Rock the Casbah" so maybe you have a point after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:42 PM

Ake - I agree. Furthermore, a basic understanding of Islamic culture would also have benefitted the Bush admin. Unfortunately, they still don't get it. Most of the aid going into Iraq is in the form of Christian missions. Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: akenaton
Date: 14 May 04 - 08:39 PM

Larry ...Your definitions stink.
The war is already lost,regardless of how long America and its accomplices occupy Iraq.
The co-alition have now assumed the role of Sadaam in Iraq,killing large numbers of Shia,the people whom they were supposed to liberate and who were to be groomed to produce a puppet government to run a "democratic" Iraq.
To my mind, the Moslem clerics cleverly used Western greed to rid themselves of their "bogey man",and are now well on their way to ridding themselves of the Americans and British who are daily becomming more of a pariah than Sadaam.
Your definition depends on an assumption that Western culture is good for Iraq and Islamic culture is bad.
The actions of American combatants and prison guard, can only lead the Iraqi people to the conclusion that the opposite is the case.
Maybe a basic understanding of Islam would be helpful to many of the people who air their views on this forum....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:55 PM

I love how DougR debates issues by ridiculing those he disagrees with... (Amergin)

That's what tends to happen in the UFO debates too... <7i> (Little Hawk)

That's just horse pucky, LH. (Amergin)

(Wolfgang) saw a UFO last night and has been in a real state of shock ever since. Don't pay any attention to his ramblings for the next few days. (Little Hawk)

Well, I'd say, Little Hawk knows first hand what he's talking about.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:32 PM

I'd say it's pretty certain that any genuinely democratic government in Iraq is going to be pretty anti-American. The danger is that in that case its democracy is likely to be under threat from America, particularly when it starts interfering with American property, or tries to get rid of foreign bases.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:10 PM

Larry K, that is the most reasoned post of yours that I have seen. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,The Time is NOW!
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:01 PM

There is only one way to resurrect this disaster in Iraq. Vote for Millard Fillmore! Do it now!!! Vote Millard Fillmore for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice for President!

Vote for Millard Fillmore!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:53 AM

I think we need some definitions of what winning and losing would look like.   Here is my attempt:

Winning-   We establish a democracy in Iraq.    The government of Iraq takes over and after a messy start up becomes the second democracy (besides Israel) in the middle east.   Freedoms are noticed by the other countries in the middle east.    Terrorists are not welcome in Iraq and the government actively fights against it.

Losing- The USA leaves Iraq.   Terrorist groups or Muslim extremests (like Al Sadir) take over.    Any coalition supporters are brutally murdered to make sure they never support the USA again.   Freedoms are abolished.   Torture and rape is brought back as common everday means of governing.   Terrorists are welcome in Iraq and set up training camps.    Other middle east countries notice that freedom is hopeless and terrorism is dominant.

Likely the outcome will be something in between.   I do see the possibility of a Haitii existing with corupt government and constant military coup.    I also see the possiblity of Cuba where an anti USA government emerges but does not have ties to terrorism or pose a threat to the USA.    I also see the possibility of Quatar emerge where there is an arab government, but they are progressive and friendly to the USA.   I also see the very faint possibility of a democracy like Isarel being established in the middle east.   Unlikely but what an incredible outcome if it were to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amergin
Date: 14 May 04 - 09:26 AM

That's just horse pucky, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:32 PM

That's what tends to happen in the UFO debates too...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amergin
Date: 13 May 04 - 08:13 PM

I love how DougR debates issues by ridiculing those he disagrees with...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:57 PM

LH,

I think that was a rhetorical question & Ms Dowd is saying it's no defense.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:22 PM

Still waiting for DougR to tell me how the reports of US soldiers torturing Iraqis are "Horse Pucky". Did it not happen (i.e. the allegations are horse pucky), or did it really happen but it is acceptable so the outcry is horse pucky?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:06 PM

No, but you do electrocute them, which is equally horrible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:47 PM

Well, this is from Maureen Dowd's editorial in the NY Times today:
________

Published: May 13, 2004

WASHINGTON

Testifying before the Senate yesterday, General Richard Myers admitted that we're checkmated in Iraq.

"There is no way to militarily lose in Iraq," he said, describing the generals' consensus. "There is also no way to militarily win in Iraq."

Talk about the sound of one hand clapping. And they say John Kerry is on both sides of issues.

Sounding like Mr. Kerry, General Myers summed up: "This process has to be internationalized. The U.N. has to play the governance role. That's how we're, in my view, eventually going to win."

...

The Bush hawks, so fixated on making the Middle East look more like America, have made America look un-American. Should we really be reduced to defending ourselves by saying at least we don't behead people?
______

clint.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:20 PM

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:21 PM

No, Dougie, the sky is not falling. Just your country and following a very familiar script, from the Romans to Hitler and every world dominator wantabee in between...

On one hand I am sorry that you are of the age that you won't be around to see the collapse of your America but on the other hand I'm glad you won't have to witness it...

This war is as lost as is democracy...

Both will soon enough be history...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:46 PM

The two party system has created a voting population that tends to view either as good/bad, evil/righteous, left/right, etc. When in fact it is really the rich and the richer. Both parties cater to the interests of multi-nationals.

It is no wonder that Iraq is a quagmire. Look at your so-called democracy at home. Time to get yourselves out of the quagmire before you attempt to liberate others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:26 PM

Oops. The sky is falling again! Right, Bobert?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:20 PM

And further evidence that the war (what war...invasion...) is lost that at a time when democracy is needed most it is almost hopelessly broken. With the recent redistricting (Dems and Repubs) where are almost no districts which are competitive. In doing this, we have created a system that rewards politicans who will not compromise. Thus a very polorized and gridlocked America. This does not bode well because in order to solve problems you need a spectrum of ideas and the US does not have that... Sure there is a *supposed" two party system but both are owned by corporations and even when there are differences between the two, the one in power RULES as opposed to GOVERNING... Ruling is a purdy stupid system and insures a US defeat in invading countries...

Iraq is increasinly being seen as a major screw up and I'm suggesting that a democratic US would not have invaded Iraq but with increasing cenralized power, and no one willing to hear the others folks opinions, the US will stumble into one screw up after another until it jusy succumbs...

Like I said, unless the US restores some sembelance of democracy and intellegence, it's history...

10 years and it will look more like Haiti, with its 1% holed up in their mansions with security guards protecting them from what used to be the middle class...

20 years and it will have fallen to a class war where military folks would have guit the US governemnt, formed militias, and turned the US into an urban gorilla warfare center and the 1%, having ties to the Chinese will have privatized their defense to the Chinese...

30 years from now, Ametricans will be working in sweat shops making tennis shoes for the Chinese working class... The McMansions will no longer be occupied by Americans but by Chinese Boss Hogs...

Like I've said, stupid white (American) men...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:58 PM

Hmm. Interesting. Doesn't sound like a Teribus post to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:37 AM

In answer to the question posed by the title of the thread - By way far, far too early to tell.

Interesting aspect of the "bounty" placed on various people in Osama's latest message of a few days ago - payment in gold (10 kilograms). Wonder why - are the measures put in place to monitor and arrest suspicious transactions beginning to bite? Poor choice on the part of OBL to go for gold as it is a lot more difficult to get rid of than cash and every bit as easy to trace. Someone should have pointed out to him that diamonds are more than just "a girls best friend".

Going back to the thread. The transfer of power to the interim administration is an important date and must be met. It creates an Iraqi Civil Administration and shows progress toward the "free" and democratic elections promised early next year. It in effect creates a civil power that can be "aided", the "hearts and minds" effort can then be really ramped up. On the latter the US military had better start listening to people that know something about that concept, as to date they certainly have shown that they, themselves, have not got the foggiest notion of what that phrase means or involves.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:50 AM

Terror? Oh, there will be terror all right, as long as there are millions of desperately poor people living alongside unparalleled wealth and privilege...as long as there are Weapons of Mass Destruction in the hands of irresponsible governments who feel free to launch pre-emptive attacks on others...as long as the real reasons behind those attacks are kept secret...as long as energy corporations control national policy...as long as kids grow up in ghettos full of crime and unemployment.

There will be plenty of terror. Whatever way you look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:47 AM

"As those of us with a modicum of sense ..." Wow, Michaelr, that's pretty heady! As proclaimed by who? Oh, you! Right.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 09:15 PM

"Fiddlesticks..."!! (I haven't heard that in years... lovely stuff!)

I think the war of 'Hearts and Minds' is definitely lost.... I didn't really hold much hope for it anyway, to begin with.

The 'War On Terror' has always really been with us, I think, and in Europe (Bader-Meinhof, The Red Brigades, Black September, etc), there has always been some internal unrest, for Governments to have to deal with.
These relatively 'localised' groups, were 'relatively' easy to keep track of, but still they stretched our Intelligence services somewhat.
However now, with the stirring of the hornet's nest that was Afghanistan, and later, the opening of the can of worms that was Iraq, Al Qaeda has multipled, diversified, and metamorphosed.
This has stretched them even further. International co-operation is more vital than ever, these days, and what with the 'systemic problems' our own internal services have communicating with each other (and will have, incidentally, on an ongoing basis for years to come), the order is a tall one.

To be a stranger in a strange land (as our presence in Iraq can be depicted), is one thing. But to be chasing an enemy there, that one cannot identify... and expect to 'win' against these odds, is a different proposition entirely. Whatever about Iraqi lives lost, I think we have lost far too many lives, trying to prove that we can somehow 'win' something (other than what the neo-cons had in mind).

There will always be some sort of a war on terror, in my opinion, and it has always been played more like a chess game, than like a game of 9 Pin.
Throwing the board in the air will only ever make matters worse, as the pieces tend to get scattered everywhere.
That makes the war unwinable from our side, and it puts us on the defence more.

If we accept that we never can completely win a war on terror, how then, should we define "Lost"?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 04 - 08:58 PM

What war?

War's generally involve two or more parties who for various stupid reasons decide to fight rather than talk. listen and compromise.

We don't have that. What we do have is an autocrat who has manufac tured wars inorder to stay in power long enough for the ruling class who put him there so that he would turn his back on the fleecing the working class.

Yeah, that's exact5ly what we have...

And no, we didn't have to attack Afganistan either. We had alternatives but they wouldn't have propelled the ratings of the current regime enough to keep him in power so, what the heck, they attacked Afganistan. Why aren't we hearing about how that little screw up is going? Well, to make it short. Bad, very bad... Warlords and Taliban run most of the country...

But really, if you want to look for evidence that these wars of choice have allready been lost all you have to do is look at the recent grocery worker's labor agreements, with it's "two tiered" settlements. Now most folks don'6t pay much attention to that kind of stuff but it is rather startling. Yup, Boss Hog, was able to get labor to agree that their kids were gonna get screwed... Now, that may not seem all that earth shattering but it is empire shattering!!!

Why?

Well, look around you'll see the working class becoming poorer but also being asked to pay for and fight Boss Hog's *wars of choice*. Meanwhile, Boss Hog, is getting fatter and fatter...

This is the perfect scenerio for the demise of an empire...

Now you heard it here first but in 10 years Boss Hog won't dare thake his $700,000 RV with car in tow out on the Interstate. Might of fact, Boss Hog won't do much of anything except hide behind his brick walls.

No, he has set his own time bomb and because of his greed he will end up blowing himself up...

So, yeah, the "wars of choice* are all lost...

Stupid white men...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 May 04 - 08:32 PM

Mary ... The TRUTH will out! There is no way in hell that (we) can keep those pictures hidden, 'nor should we. The damage was done, is done, and the world will/does know.

President bush started this war against all the best advice. And the BEST advice was from ME. I said: "Don't do it!" He didn't listen to me. Therefore, I take this war VERY personally. I told him NOT to do it, and he did anyway.

There is NO WAY IN HELL that we're going to get out of this mess alive. And, as you suggest, hiding the pictures will not help. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: mg
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:30 PM

I can't speak for them but if someone was feeding me feet first into a paper shredder I would welcome a fairly benevolent occupation. I would welcome the "liberators". Now, if I wanted power that I saw slipping away forever, I would not welcome them. I would fight.

And the problems caused by the prison abuses can not be calculated. I can not believe we are debating releasing more pictures. We must not. For the sake of the privacy and dignity of the prisoners. And one thing we must do is immediately offer a number of Iraqi social workers, doctors, clergy, etc. training in PTSD, trauma counseling, rape counseling, etc., if they do not have enough training already. Maybe in a neutral country..so they can help with the healing process.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: michaelr
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:15 PM

As those of us with a modicum of sense have been saying for over a year now, this "war" is illegal, immoral, and unwinnable. The Iraqui people will never accept occupation, and while many of them may applaud the ouster of Saddam, they will never forgive the US for the arrogant, clumsy and cruel way we took over their country.

As for the so-called improvements -- Iraq was the Arab country with the highest standard of living and the best quality infrastructure, health care and school systems under Saddam. Any "improvements" must be measured against the status quo BEFORE we bombed them to shit.

Freedom of speech, assembly, protest? Don't make me laugh.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:25 PM

Such things as improvment in medical care, schools being reopened, freedome of speech and assemply and freedom to protest. Also, oil production is higher than it was in pre-war years AND THE FUNDS ARE BEING HELD IN A TRUST FUND to benefit the Iraqi people! To date over 10 BILLION dollars is in that Trust Fund.

Uh... Improvement of medical care could have been achieved by lifting the embargo. Schools being re-opened - They were closed by what? Oh yeah, we were dropping bombs and shooting up the place so it wasn't safe for the kiddies to go to school. Freedom of speech, assembly and protest. Seems to me they had these freedoms (as long as it was against the US). And now that they have them to do with as they please, who do they speak out about, rally about, and protest about? Why us! The great and beneficiant liberators! What an improvement!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 02:49 PM

British government decided the game wasn't really worth the candle

Only after they had received Cornwallis' signed surrender to Washington.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 02:13 PM

American Revolution? My understanding is that the British government decided the game wasn't really worth the candle, and turned to other things. Which is the normal pattern when it comes to holding on to overseas places where you aren't welcome.
.........................

I thought Fox News Network counted as pretty "mainstream", Doug. I gather rather a lot of people in the USA watch it, and rely on it for their understanding of what is happening in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 02:04 PM

Why the hell is that much money being held in a trust fund instead of being used to rebuild the local water and electrical systems in towns and cities? Waiting for pacification? Does anyone tell the Iraqis this?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: DougR
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:59 PM

Ebbie: Horse pucky. The war is far from lost. Fox News Network did a retrospective of the GOOD things that have come out of this war yesterday and it was an eye-opener. Such things as improvment in medical care, schools being reopened, freedome of speech and assemply and freedom to protest. Also, oil production is higher than it was in pre-war years AND THE FUNDS ARE BEING HELD IN A TRUST FUND to benefit the Iraqi people! To date over 10 BILLION dollars is in that Trust Fund.

You just don't see such reports in the mainstream press. That's not sexy. Abusing prisoners is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:39 PM

I would argue, for example that the American Revolution was lost militarily by the British, because their chief general got his ass locked in a box.