BS: Is the War Lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: dianavan
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:27 PM

Ellenpoly is right - "Perhaps wars are never over, but like coals in an eternal fire, they become banked in one place just to re-ignite in another."

Have you ever seen the plaque at Dacchau? 'Never Again' in several languages. I thought it was a solemn oath. The young man with me (whose parents died there) was very upset because I was no naive as to believe it.

War and genocide will continue to happen worldwide until we figure out a way to equally distribute our dwindling resources. There will always be those dark and shadowy figures who profit from the misery of others. And there will always be rich and complacent nations of people who care only about maintaining the status quo. War is not over because we give all of our power to the greedy and in fact try to emulate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:04 PM

Big powers probably never lose overseas colonial wars militarily, but they almost invariably end up losing them, sooner or later. Sometimes it takes a long time, of course, before they accept they've lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:58 AM

No, no, Amos...you misunderstand me. What I mean is simply this: as long as the USA had significant numbers of combat troops in the field in Vietnam, they were not losing militarily...they never lost a single major land battle...BUT...they were not winning either, because they could not eliminate the enemy forces or establish security in the country.

The USA began to supposedly "Vietnamize" the war by pulling out American ground forces, and the South Vietnamese Army was expected to deal with the situation after that, but couldn't. The evacuation of the last American officials and soldiers from the roof of the embassy in Saigon occurred considerably after the USA had pulled out, in a military sense. It was the South Vietnamese Army that was defeated in the field, not the US Army and Marines.

The US Army and Marines were defeated on the political and psychological battlefield, not on the physical battlefield.

In the long run no amount of firepower can perpetuate a politically untenable situation, which is what I believe we have now in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:42 AM

Fiddlesticks, old man!! The day we airlifted troops off the roof of the Saigon embassy, it was effectively over. Lost. By reason of better generalship, among other things.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:35 AM

Vietnam was not lost militarily either, until some time after the American troops were withdrawn...but it was lost politically and psychologically long before that. I expect that Iraq will follow a somewhat similar line.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:30 AM

I disagree that the war is lost, as far as it being a military operation. The guerilla and insurgenty counterattacks we are sustaining may be making the war unpopular or even untenable, but they are in no wise causing us to lose it as a military operation. Should the occasion arise our resources are capable of a great deal more.

But there is a broader question that makes the war seem like a losing proposition in the first place. Our promotion of our way of life implies the exercise of informed intelligence by free men and women. Bush apparently missed class the day that was discussed, so while he promoted the nebulous term "freedom" he doesn;'t much care for informed intelligence, being less than average at it.
Unfortunately this shows through and reveals him as a mean-spirited ignoramus when he wants to be seen as a big-hearted wise World Buddy. He's not, though -- not big hearted, not wise, and not a friend to the world.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:22 AM

This is probably the wrong thread for this;

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/news/stories/20040510/opinion/390552.html

But it goes to the heart of the matter in many ways...

(PS-My own response to this article is "Oh, well now that you've explained it like THAT...my mind has been completely changed"...)




(..NOT)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Perhaps wars are never over, but like coals in an eternal fire, they become banked in one place just to re-ignite in another.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:28 AM

Of course, the fact that a war is lost doesn't mean it won't drag on for a long long time, and kill an enormous number of people. Remember Vietnam. Remember the Second World War (from the German point of view).

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:23 AM

Ah El Greko, I hope you're right...










But remember those flying pigs??

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:07 AM

Yes, I think that the War in Iraq is lost. As for the War on Terrorism, that is rather like the War on Drugs...it is essentially unwinnable because it is an attack on symptoms but not on the original causes of the illness. It will drag on, go into remission, become unfashionable, become fashionable again, etc...while the endemic socio-political and economic problems that lie behind it will not be dealt with. That's my expectation.

The fact is, we are one humanity on this planet and should treat each other in a fair and equal fashion...but that is not happening. Instead we are faced with nationalism, tribalism, and gross inequality, and our economic system is based on maintaining such inequality. This is unjust and it is primarily what lies behind both war and terrorism in many places. Religion and nationalism are cleverly used as an emotional overlay to motivate the fighters, but the fight is about an unequal share of land, resources, employment, and economic opportunity. Never has so much been screwed up for so many by so few.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:02 AM

YES,obviously

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:51 AM

see also

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/021504_did_british_soldiers_lose_all_co.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:36 AM

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051004A.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:29 AM

Of course it is lost. It was always going to be so, it was a losing war and many shouted it a year ago, only to be branded "unpatriotic" or "wimps".

BUT... the USA and Britain have an opportunity to win their own countries back, in the aftermath of the debacle - if they act appropriately.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:27 AM

It is very sad for the USA and not only for them, but the article has a lot of good points to make, in particular concerning the USA starting to behave like a caricature of themselves in Bin Laden's worst propaganda.

However, I disagree with the assessment that the war (on terror; not: in Iraq) is lost. It will stay with us for a long time to come, declared or undeclared. It is neither won nor lost yet. One can only hope that the new US government will use different means to fight this war.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,lurker
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:42 AM

How long is it since you last saw it? Really, isn't it rather careless to lose a whole war?

How irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:31 AM

There was a book published in 1988 called something like "The Rise and Fall of Great Empires"... basically predicted that the US Empire will pass like all the others - the reason for all of them being that they overextended them selves. With something like over 360,000 troops around the world, Iraq is just another straw on the camel's back. When other countries stop buying US bonds to fund US Military spending, the shit will hit the fan...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Mickey191
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:20 AM

Ebbie, Thanks for that site. I've sent it to all my friends. Of course, I nod in agreement. It's worse then Viet Nam.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:18 AM

My God, is this true? "Responding to the issue of whether or not Bush and Rumsfeld should apologize for Abu Ghraib, Lieberman stated that none of the terrorists had apologized for September 11."

I have not had a very high opinion of Lieberman, but I thought better of him than this.

The statement is an offense against both morality and reason.

clint

Subject: BS: Is the War Lost?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 04 - 11:02 PM

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051004A.shtml

William Rivers Pitt editorial: The War is Lost