BS: Euro 2004

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 02:27 PM

Good point, Shambles. And these three Premiership goalies, where did their teams finish at the end of the season? 2 relegated, 1 almost relegated. God knows how many goals they let in between them! It certainly seems that goalkeeping is no longer an English skill. Their inability to cope with crosses rivals Dracula's.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:39 PM

Now we shouldn't burden them with unrealistic expectations.

Amen to that. It is a real shame that at a time when the England outfield squad is really strong - that the long-term strength of England teams for so long - the goalkeeper is now the weak point. There are only four goalkeepers qualified for England selection that are regular Premiership starters.

Is it unrealistic to expect the outfield players to score more goals than our goalkeeper lets in?

I hope not and we will soon find out.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:15 PM

The other day the only player on the French team who plays in France was the goalie. It's a general picture - it's always applied for the smaller countries that most of their best players pay abroad, and now it's the bigger countries as well. I imagine it must make life difficult for the manager getting people together to train and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:08 PM

Hargreaves?

My guess is he would be among the nominated but not play in the first team. He would play as substitute.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:08 PM

England will be praying for rain, rain and more rain. It looks like the only thing which will save them from a certain exit this evening. I expect the technically superior Portuguese to pass the ball at whatever speed they wish until the inevitable mistakes are made by the English defence. There is no harm in England having a run at goal though, They have done all that can reasonably be expected of them and I wish them luck. England have bee wonderful to watch, but I am afraid their defence couldn't stop a taxi. They have done us proud and put the smile back on my face for sure. Now we shouldn't burden them with unrealistic expectations.
It looks like a Holland France final. The Dutch are back from the dead and I think they will continue to improve. I wouldn't mind another helping of the thrilling football they served up last Saturday.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 11:54 AM

the streets are VERY VERY QUIET. Why? Whats happening???

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 11:39 AM

I agree Wolfgang, the sheer size and fitness levels of previous German squads was very intimidating. These days strength, fitness and speed are in abundance everywhere.
Another great leveller for what used to be the top European sides is the quality of coaching throughout all clubs. Teams without recognised stars are turning in quality performances by being well organised and working to a game plan.
It makes for more interesting competition but it's still hard to watch your team being overturned by, supposedly, less skillfull players.
There will always be a handful of players that stand out above the rest but one, or even two, in a side may not be enough.(I'm hoping this applies to Figo and Ronaldo tonight!)
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 10:15 AM

English football is a bit similar in lots of ways, Wolfgang. We've had Premiership teams with only one or two England-eligible players for quite some time. And players in the England squad like Phil Neville and Nicky Butt are basically reserves for foreign players in the Manchester United squad. English teams stand the best chance of winning if they play at a higher tempo (more physical effort) than their opponents.

Would Owen Hargreaves get a place in the Germany squad if he was German (rather than being Canadian!)?

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:18 AM

Well, a comment from a real newspaper this morning was that there is no reason to be disappointed about this German team. They did what they could and that was not good enough. A bit more luck in one of the games only would have concealed the fact (like it did in the world cup) that the German team since at least ten years is no longer among the top teams in Europe.

If the English coach could pick players from the German team to improve the English team he might take two or three, if the German coach could pick players from the English team to improve the German he'd pick five to seven.

Even back in the times of brilliant Fritz Walter and Beckenbauer, the majority of the German players were from the technical point of view underendowed, too bad for a forth league team in Brazil. What made them strong was the physical aspect and the teamwork. They could outrun most teams they played late in the second half. Which is why we had so many famous comebacks after being down during the game. There is no other team in the world that has an even remotely similar record in World cups of still winning a game or drawing after being 2-0 down.

The physical strength is still there but the other teams, with the technically better players, don't break down anymore in the second half. The physical advantage of German teams has more or less disappeared while the technical skill gap is still there.

The German team will still be able to beat one of the best European teams on a good day, but les frequently.

The number of German players in the German first league is decreasing since many years. Last year, for the first time, we had one team starting the game with 11 players uneligible for the German team. If you look at the 18 teams of the first league in Germany and count the German players that play more than half of the games during the season, you'll find between fifty and sixty. These are the ones Rudi Voeller had to chose from. So if you are a German player playing regularly in your team you have a fair chance to be at least among the 22 nominated.

Often someone has played for Germany who in his home team was only the replacement for a better foreign player.

One particular problem is that there was no good German striker at all since Rudi Voeller himself and Juergen Klinsmann. I see no one to change this soon.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 02:05 AM

Prediction:

England are not going to get knocked-out of Euro 2004 in a penalty shoot-out, well with the German team, anyway.....

Before the game Des Lynham said to Terry Venables, (ex England manager whose side was knocked out of Euro 96 by the German team on penalties) "what have the German team ever done to you"?

Usually when the England team are winning, why do the comentators come out with, 'I don't wish to tempt fate but' - and then proceed to do just that?

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: John Routledge
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:44 PM

The German tabloid press had already superimposed player's heads on the top of sausages because of earlier failure. What will they say/do now.!!

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:12 PM

Anyway Wolfgang, you're in the World Cup in two years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 06:20 PM

I should think there are many people unexpectedly wearing clogs tonight. It's amazing how many times the Germans managed not to score!
The one time they did hit the net was an absolute stunner though. Likewise the Czech first goal from their free kick.
Apparently the German press is no kinder than ours in the UK. The returning team is in for a hard time it would seem.

C-flat.


P.S. Good call on the Dutch result Den! I hope you had a small wager.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 06:02 PM

I am really sorry Wolfgang - but Kevin is right - would appear to be a Dutchman!

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 05:28 PM

Repeat after me Shambles,......... "Ik heb geen flauw benul van voetbal"

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 04:34 PM

Repeat after me, Shambles,.........."Ik ben een Nederlander!"

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:15 PM

All the pressure is off the Czechs as a team - but for the reserves playing who wouldn't normally be playing it'll be a do or die situation. They'll go all out to score.

I've got a feeling that Shambles might find he is a Dutchman after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:41 PM

I fancy the Germans to go through to-night , hard luck on Holland, a good team managed by a moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

Predictio. The German team will win and go through, or I'm a Dutchman.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:49 AM

The German strikers' lack of desire in front of goal is going to have to be overcome if they're going to beat the Czechs. Even with a second string side, the Czech players are going out to fight for their places in the first 11 and are not going to roll over for the Germans.
I'll go for a Czech win 1-0.

The Dutch side should meet less opposition from the Latvians and may be able to turn in a good performance, despite their recent problems. Much depends on Nistelroy and Robben (and Advocaats' use of substitutions?)
Holland win 2-0

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Den
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:59 AM

Someone should have told Italy earlier in the Tournament that in order to score goals you have to go forward. They can whine all they want, Nesta says that they didn't deserve to go out and that they are better than both Denmark and Sweden but they were easily the most boring team to watch. Anyway Holland and Latvia and Germany v the Czechs. Holland need to win but then so do Germany. Will the Czechs second team give Germany a run for it. Wolfgang thinks so and I tend to agree with him but it will be difficult without the likes of Nedved and Poborsky. My prediction Holland 3 v 0 Latvia. Germany 2 v 2 Czech Rep.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:43 AM

Poor Casanos' face. One moment jubilation, the next, desperation!
I was amazed at how quickly the news reached the players, especially with so much noise in the stadium.
As for Totti, he didn't deserve to get back into the tournament after the spitting incident.
Hero to Zero sums it up right.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:52 AM

Or is it Totti, sitting and watching and waiting for his 'spitting' ban to enable him to rejoin in the semi-final....?

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:49 AM

Hero to zero moment of Euro 2004?

Casano scoring Italy's second goal in the game's last moments - running in joy to the bench, only to be told that because of Sweden and Denmark's 2-2 draw - Italy were out.

This, despite not losing a game and finishing with 5 points.......

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: GUEST,Guacermo DiLuca
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 06:22 PM

Italy ... fnarr!

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 06:14 PM

That's a bloody good idea!!! I've got a couple of redundant wedge-monitors which could house a small TV.
I feel a spot of D.I.Y. coming on McGrath of Harlow!

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 06:05 PM

C-flat you could stick a telly on the stage disguised as a monitor, with the sound turned down...

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 03:50 PM

Working late today, so wasn't able to make any predictions or lose any money at the bookies!
At this moment Italy are a goal down and sitting at the bottom of their group! I think I would have gone for an Italian victory too Den, but maybe taken the Danes over the Swiss.

"futball = rubbish " s6K (Essex Kay?), you're not going to be a happy bunny for the next few weeks are you?

Maybe you can take some pleasure from the post-match interviews?
There are some real gems to be had.
"We didn't under-estimate them, they were just better than we thought!"............Bobby Robson.

I'm working myself up for Thursday night and have made my usual flurry of bets across a 2-1 or 2-0 result to England, with an assortment of first scorers, ranging from Rooney at 25/1 (2-0 win) to Campbell at 200/1. Someone's going to do it for me soon!
Worst thing is, I've got a gig on Thursday and, try as I might, I can't back out! I'm considering playing with an ear-piece tuned to the match commentary. Could make for some interesting ad-libs.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:22 PM

Bulgaria have been woeful and even the under achieving Italians should manage at least two goals, the Danes v Sweden is a hard game to call, so I will go for a draw, and take England to beat Portugal on Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Den
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

Well I guess s6k just doesn't read very well. Anyway C-flat what do you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: s6k
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:51 PM

futball = rubbish

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Den
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:46 PM

Well, Wolfgang that is another way to look at it. I didn't get any predictions in for the England v Croatia or France v switzerland games. I was too busy today. It was an interesting game the England game. They played well in spurts with Scoles and Lampard doing what they should. However I think they may struggle to create against some of the bigger names. Rooney is a handful but he pretty much created his goals without much build up play well the second one anyway. He does well running at players from deep. He isn't your typical back to the goal type of striker. That's where he and Owen are similer but I think he outshines Owen.

France weren't at their best either and had trouble at times trying to break the Swiss down. I think they were deploying Henry in the wrong position for much of the game. He too is a player who likes to run at people although he tends to drift in from the wing and cut into the middle much like he did for the third goal. I don't think you knock long high balls to Henry and expect him to cope well.

So Italy v Bulgaria and Sweden v Denmark. The Italians need to win and score goals. I see them winning but only by 2. So Italy 2-0 Bulgaria. Sweden and Denmark will be difficult to predict. I see this as either being one of the games of the tournament or a dull stalemate. There's really only pride at play here with both teams really only needing a draw. So I'll say 1-1.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:14 PM

Four good goals but England let in two.

Quarter finals so far France v Greece
                     England v Portugal

Wayne again - top scorer with 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:47 PM

England

Good game
Good game

My favourite
Frank Lampard. What a lovely player and a pleasure to listen to.

I think he is Englands future captain. Watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM

The Czech coach will probably rest his best players against Germany giving them an advantage.

We don't see it that way, but remember the last Euro: Portugal was already qualified and did send only the B-team to the last (meaningless to them) game against Germany. The Portugese B-team sent Germany home with 3-0.

Seriously, if you are a player who under normal circumstances cannot be expected to make it to the team, you'd run like mad just to show the manager how good you are and how wrong he is.

Concerning the offside (or not), the head of the German referees that is the man who selects them and judges them has said in TV that it was a clear case of offside and should have been judged as such. But I agree that if there are differing opinions in different countries how that should be judged this is a clear case for reconsidering the formulation of the rules.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:36 AM

I've now got the price on my Rooney hat-trick bet. A measly 20/1! The same price on Rooney getting sent off!(far more likely)

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:29 AM

It's going to be a tough one tonight but I think we'll do it. I've managed to get a few daft bets on, such as,
England win 3-0, Campbell scores the opening goal, at 200/1
England win 3-1, Lampard to score first, at 75/1
England win 2-1, Owen to score first, at 25/1
Beckham scores last goal (any result) at 9/1
and I've got Rooney down for a hat-trick but at the time of placing the bet there wasn't any prices available.

Realistically, I think it will end up as an ugly 1-0 but I remain hopeful.

For the France-Switzerland game I'm going 2-1 to the Swiss, with Zidane to open the scoring, at 200/1, which I think is the pick of my bets!
Total stake.......£6.(the bookies must be shaking in their boots!)

C-flat.(The bookmakers friend)

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: sledge
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:12 AM

Only if Scotland were playing. BG!

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:53 AM

if England lose tonight do we rename this thread as "Someone always has to be last"

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Den
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 04:53 PM

Well I got one right. I agree with Ard get rid of Advocatt.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:08 PM

I agree the Dutch are best when attacking. However it doesn't help when you are down to 10 because the referee made a bad decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 01:46 PM

Villian, The man to blame for the Dutch defeat was oul cold-ass , Manager Advocatt, he took off their best forward when they were leading, to replace him with a defender, and suffered the consequences.
Advocatt did the same in a European Cup game when manager of Rangers.
Replace this man with an attack minded manager, that is the way with Dutch football, their football is not meant to be stifled by cold-asses like Advocatt.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Den
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 01:00 PM

Great game. The Dutch were very unfortunate and the odds of them making it to the next round are pretty much against them. The Czech coach will probably rest his best players against Germany giving them an advantage. I can't see Latvia rolling over either. Anyway another game that has the makings of a classic encounter, Portugal who must win against Spain and Greece against the already eliminated Russians. I say Portugal will do it by one goal to nil and Greece will beat the Russians 2-0.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 06:36 AM

"A poor referee and a few bad decisions didn`t spoil a great game"

It did for the Dutch. Having a player sent off did spoil the game. This may have eleiminated them from the competition. They are such an entertaining team and really deserve to be in the next round.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 06:01 AM

A poor referee and a few bad decisions didn`t spoil a great game, well in advance of anything I have seen yet. A rare treat.
What a pity if the Dutch team are eliminated, they are a hugely entertaining side.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 05:39 AM

No, not a set plan, Villan, but very much a part of Nistelroys' game, as we've seen in the Premiership. Everytime Man.Utd have a free kick close to the opposition goal, Nistelroy can be found in an off-side position, there purely to unsettle the defence, although technically "passive", untill he steps back up to the defensive line or untill he becomes part of the "secondary" action, for which he is on-side.
We can't blame the players for exploiting a weakness in the ruling but there is so much opportunity for "interpretation" from Referees and Assistants that I believe it needs urgent attention.
All a striker needs to do is stand around the penalty area untill play comes his way. As long as he lets his team-mate with possesion get level with his position he is magically transformed from "passive" to "active" and quite within the rules.
I'd rather the off-side rule was completely scrapped than this non-sense.
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:40 AM

Worth having a look at the history of offside. Very informative.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/corshamref/sub/offhist.htm

The rule that intrigues me is

gaining an advantage by being in that position

I consider van Nistelrooy as well as most Dutch players to be a very intelligent and knowledgeable about the game. They know the rules or should do. They know that if the ball goes out to the wing and Ruud is not interfering with play or a player, that he just needs to move back to be onside.

So was it a set plan or was it an accident that Ruud was standing where he was at that time. Did the player who made the initial pass realise that Ruud was offside and therefore played the ball to another player, or was it a set plan worked out in practice.

Personally I don't think it was a specific set plan. I think Ruud was where he should have been, but was offside if the ball came to him. It didn't and he was definately not interfering with play (under the current rules) in anyt way shape or form.

Not offside when he scored. I hope that all makes sense :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:32 PM

I agree Wolfgang, the off-side decision was ridiculous but, technically, under the new rules, it can be argued to be fair.
Nistelroy continued to walk back to an on-side position untill his team-mate had passed him, before turning back in towards goal to receive the ball to score.
I don't know how a player can be regarded as "passive" inside the penalty area, which-ever way he's facing, but that's the rule.
It's a bad rule that is too open to interpretation and one probably made by someone who has never played the game.
Nevertheless, the best match so far. The gap in standard between the, supposed, main European sides with the big-name players and the rest has now closed. I think this year it could go to any of the teams I've seen, which makes for an interesting competition.
C-flat.(passive)

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:12 PM

It was phantastic. But the referee really had not his best day. The sending off was not his only bad decision. The second Dutch goal was clearly at least 6 yards offside though the rule why it was offside is not well known. One Dutch player was in passive offside when the ball was played to some other Dutch player who then played the ball to the player who was previously in passive offside. This is one of the situations in which the decision not to call it offside at the moment the ball was played was correct since the player who was offside was far from the ball. But he was closer to the goal than the opposite players and five seconds later used this advantage to score. This is one of the rare situations in which the decision of offside has to come several seconds after the actual offside situation. But a referee at the Euro should see that.

One clear offside goal granted, one wrong booking, he was really a spoiler of a great game.

Now all Germany has to do is to beat the Czechs :-)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Euro 2004
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:19 PM

What a fantastic game of football tonight.

The best in the competition so far. Holland didn't deserve to lose, and I personally think the ref made a bad decision which caused the Dutch player to be sent off, which may well have influenced the outcome of the game.

Can't see many matches coming up to this level of game tonight.