June Tabor on BBC TV

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,George Hawes
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:52 AM

Sorry to follow-up myself, but I wanted to add somthing about the "other artists" on "Died in Hell", and wanted to check some facts first. Anyway, a quick Google produced this on Shoshana (whom I realised, from talking to June, was a Holocaust survivor), which I thought was worth sharing:

Shoshana Kalisch was a survivor of the Lodz concentration camp, and tells of sharing it with Gypsies brought there from Austria:


The Gypsies did not last long. Left without food for days, they were tortured sadistically by their special guards, who often forced them to do gymnastics until they collapsed or died ... The Nazi commander ordered squads of Jews to bury the Gypsies in the Jewish cemetery. Surviving Gypsies were deported to Auschwitz ... when we were deported to Auschwitz, my sister and I were assigned to a barracks of "C" compound at Birkenau, adjacent to the camp in which the Gypsies were detained ... One night in early August, we heard spine-chilling shrieks coming from the Gypsy camp, augmented by the sound of trucks coming and going and the ferocious barking of dogs. The elder in charge of our barracks told us that the Gypsies were being taken away. The sound of the trucks, the barking of the dogs, and the screaming and wailing of the Gypsies permeated our camp throughout the night.
We held onto our shoes, our only possessions aside from the single garment on our bodies, ready to run - which would of course have been useless - expecting in silent terror to be the next ones taken away. Feeling only my sister's and my heartbeats, I made up my mind not to scream when they came for us. The Gypsies, I thought, had been screaming for me too (Kalisch, 1985:87-88).


Shoshana Kalisch (op. cit.) also reproduces a song which was written about the Gypsies in her camp. "Strictly quarantined and isolated from the rest of the ghetto, the Gypsies were easily ignored or forgotten," she says. "Thus it is all the more touching to hear a song describing the Gypsies' plight by the Lodz, ghetto musician David Beigelman." Beigelman died of exhaustion in a slave labor camp just three months before liberation:

(if you want the song then it's at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/pariah-ch9.htm)

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,George Hawes
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:33 AM

Well for "We died in Hell, They called it Passchendaele" you could try:
http://users.pandora.be/gruwez/all_ned_frames.htm, then click on the red "CDs" heading, then on the CD title . . .
(sorry, it's so long since I've been in these parts I've forgotten how to create links . . . In my previous job [and five companies ago] I'd archived instructions for that sort of thing. . .)

Unfortuately the language of the web site might be a problem (it is for me). There is an audio track of June's on the page describing the CD - which was compiled from live recordings of three concerts, IIRC. From the web site the track listing is:

1. Will 'ye go to Flanders? [June Tabor]
2. Klaaglied van de vrouwen [Kristien Dehollander]
3. Ma mère et la fête [Marwan Zoueini]
4. Di Nakht [Shoshana Kalisch]
5. The Nurse [June Tabor]
6. The long, long trail [June Tabor]
7. The Reaper [June Tabor]
8. Nabwaina owtal el mochwar [Marwan]
9. Und was bekam das Soldaten Weib [June, Shoshana, Kristien]
10. Aux Soldats morts [Kristien]
11. The Bloody Fields of Flanders [The Lone Tree Orchestra]
12. De Rode Heuve [Kristien]
13. Tsen Brider [Shoshana]
14. Lwein Raihine [Marwan]
15. Dos Yingl vet zey firn [Shoshana]
16. Aqaba [June]
17. A Nign [Shoshana]
18. No Man's Land [June]

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:02 AM

Ralphie

I made a DVD recording of the concert and then from that an audio files which could be listened to (MP3 and wav). Certainly listening to the concert on a decent system uncovers more of Andy Cutting's playing; an interesting thing to do, because when purely listening, your ears are not assisted by your eyes. I still think his playing is still a bit muted when compared to the other supporting instruments but I'm probably getting unreasonably fussy now! So I shall retract my criticisms of Mike's work and try not to rush to make judgement in future.

George

I can cope with June irrespective of the mood of her material. I've had a search for "They Died in Hell" and drawn a blank. Where can it be found?

I am quite jealous of those folk who got to the concert. I have seen her quite recently in Oxford but the additional performers Simpson, Lockhart and Cutting made the gig very special indeed.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,George Hawes
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:42 AM

Peter, Yes, the information you read about how Aleyn was recorded is true. However, if you want an even more powerfull live recording of June's then search out "They Died in Hell - We called it Paschendaele". (But it's not a recording for those who found the BBC4 concert too sombre . . personally I thought, by June's standards, the BBC set was a little on the jolly side . . .)

Of course, leaving "Tony Blair's Picnic" out of the broadcast did distort the "emotional balance" of the original . . .

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:43 AM

George - I can't PM you 'cos you're not logged in. If you could lift the spamblocker that thinks my email is an illegal alias, I'd tell you more.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,George Hawes
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 04:17 AM

Well, having been at the gig and finally caught up with the video . .
I would say it was an excellent recording (in all respects) of a fantistic concert. Yes, I had quibbles about bits of it, but they are insignificant compared with the overall splendour . . . For instance, Chris (wife) and I both felt "Strange Affair" came over better on the video than it did at the concert - perhaps the editing of the different cameras resored some of the intimacy lost through the compromises of the stage layout. Interresting that the broadcast has June talking about the Coppers song which hadn't actually been broadcast . . . Was June slightly more nervous than usual? It seemed that way to me on the video. Equally, the audience seemed rather more
restrained than I'd have expected (or than the concert deserved) -
perhaps because the tables weren't populated by the core fans, and the terrace was a bit removed from the audience mics . . .

How come you weren't there, Ralphie? And on a technical note - why would they have been using a long boom-arm mic in the region of the accompanists (Mark E, Andy C and the Sax especially) when the instruments were close-mic'd? Mearly curious here.

Long time no speak - we've missed you!

G.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 06:49 AM

Countess, I was a bit Billy miffed that I couldn't go. If I gave up playing music then I would get to a few more gigs, but my addiction is too strong.

Now THAT mix (and I sense I'm just about to get into deep water). Listen to Mr Cutting's (deep breath) diatonic button accordion playing on June's "Aleyn" or "Against the Streams", especially the wonderful rendition of "Johnny O'Bredislee/Glory Of The West". I reckon his role is mainly a supporting one, easy to hear but not dominant in the mix. Something interesting I found whilst snooping around on the web is this review of Aleyn by George Graham (The Graham Weekly Album Review #1086)

'An interesting aspect of Aleyn was that it was recorded live before audiences in four locations, though it was not intended to sound like a live album. There are no reactions from the audience on the CD. Ms. Tabor and her producer John Ravenhall, felt that the spirit and "spark" of the music was captured best live before an audience.'

If this information is true, then it shows just how remarkable June and her supporting musicians are. I think the mix is well balanced on that album - and I still think that Andy's playing could have been lifted just a little in the mix for the concert. Anyway despite my (slight) reservations about the mix, it was still a fantastic gig; well done June, well done Messrs. Emerson, Warren, Harries, Lockhart, Simpson and CUTTING, well done BBC4 and well done Mr Felton. It's easy being an armchair sound engineer/producer innit!

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 01:23 AM

Peter.
Thanks for that!
Having listened again, the redoubtable Mr C, is playing very much a supporting role with the band, and seems to sit in the mix nicely, providing a supporting role for Junes atmospheric delivery. Personally, I wouldn't have lifted him any higher in the mix. Shame that History Man was left on the floor but, then, it was a JT gig after all!
All this reminds of a PA gig at a fest with a (now defunct)very fine English Dance Band many years ago.
I was approached by a very "cheerful" Morris man, who berated me for the fact that the melodeon wasn't loud enough.

I dutifully boosted the level to satisfy him, knowing full well that it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, as the tune being played was Sax led, in Bb, and the box player was at the bar!! Could I convince him??!!...

Regards Ralphie, and Congrats to BBC4 for even trying.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:59 PM

Mr Cutting was playing a...deep breath...diatonic button accordion. Shall we all say that together?

So, Peter, either upgrade your equipment or get yourself up from Oxford a bit more often. (Only 10 notes on the Oxtube and these BBC gigs are free...)

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 04:45 PM

OK that's me put in my place then (and might I add, Ralphie, very politely too)! But I'm warning you, I shall be listening to it again tomorrow night through my HiFi rather than my TV. If I still can't hear more than the occasional drone from Mr Cutting, I shall be disappointed!

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 02:26 PM

Have just watched a Vid of the Tx.
To clear up a few techie points.
I'm sure that all sound sources (ie Mics, DI's, etc) would have been individually split and fed to an outside mixing point, along with 4 or so Mics pointed at the audience, to provide applause, etc. (probably the Sound end of the TV Scanner).
As has been already stated, all the individual sound sources would have been as dry and Hi quality as possible.
It's then up to the ability of the engineer to create the live sound suitable for the TV, in real time....No easy task.
Luckily, on this occasion, my colleague Mike Felton was in charge.
(Look at the credits for many TV music progs...ie, Jools Holland's "Later" etc).
I can only assume that dissapointed viewers were listening on not very good equipment. No offence meant, honestly.
As for the venue, I've worked there a couple of times, and acoustically it is a joy...As the venerable Countess states...you should try working at the Union Chapel....Lovely building, pants sound!
Hope this clears up the tech bit.
Anyone want to take me on about it...see you at Womad!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 11:12 AM

Wednesday night at 11.50 on BBC4 (I think).

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:59 AM

Anyonw know of it's to be repeated this week

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:34 AM

Depending on the quality of sound reproduction on your TV/HiFi, some registers are likely to be enhanced or degraded which could affect your ability to hear the words.

So was it a bad TV I was using, my ageing ears or was the mix really not up to the mark? I found the words a bit hard to hear at times and Andy Cutting, who I consider to be the classiest of all melodeon players, needn't have bothered playing. I reckon the best mixes are done by people who understand the genre/artist. Was this just any old outside broadcast or was it done by specialists?

Despite all the moans, what a cracking gig!

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:30 PM

Bollocks, Dan Abnormal. It's by no means unusual to close-mike instruments and set mikes to pick up the ambient acoustic (though this is not going to replicate the sound heard by those at the live event). A small point, but worth making in view of your snotty tone.

Your Ladyship, hat does LSO stand for, as in "LSO St Luke's"?

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 06:59 PM

Hi Bob (asirovedout),

You sure didn't waste any time between our talk last night and getting onto Mudcat! (I see you got the nick you were after as well.) Well done!

If I'd known you were going to be *that* quick about it, I'd have let you post for yourself, but I was quite interested to see if there was a consensus of opinion.

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 05:15 PM

Junes' voice seems to have got deeper with the years,more effective now on the slower bluesy songs....Still the best folkie by a mile.
Did anyone listen to Martins' wonderful slide guitar on "The grey funnel line".Sometimes, whenI hear Martin doing an accompaniment,even with June,his brilliance just takes over the song.
He is without doubt the finest instrumentalist around...Ake

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 04:15 PM

Better ears, I'd suggest. Every word was clear to me. An excellent concert.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: asirovedout
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM

Yorkshire Yankee got the gist of what I said at the singaround yesterday.

I'd only watched a couple of songs at the beginning, to check that the VCR was recording.
I don't know whether the sound engineer was using other mikes besides the obvious ones, or whether he perhaps put a bit of reverb in, but it wasn't clear enough for me to catch every word, which is important to me.

If you did Dan, you must have a better TV, or maybe better ears.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 08:54 AM

Indeed. The acoustics at LSO St Luke's are excellent, as anyone who has been there will testify. At the concert, every word, indeed every instrumental note was perfectly clear but it is patent nonsense to assume that the sound mix during performance is going to be reproduced automatically on transmission. It's a bit like those who rave about the Union Chapel acoustics when all they've seen and heard is a broadcast. Any sound engineer will tell you what a pig that venue is to achieve an acceptable balance on the mix.   Just moving around during a performance would give even the least technically minded some idea of the difficulties. That it comes out right sometimes is a reflection of the engineer's skill, not an accurate measure of either performance or venue.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:59 AM

"...the acoustics of the hall weren't very good"

Forgivable if you didn't see the programme, but your friend who did watch may have noticed a microphone in front of Junes mouth. This is used to record the sound so a faithful representation of the performance may be heard upon broadcast.

I don't mean to patronise or be pedantic but how on earth would anyone know what the acoustics of the hall were like from watching the broadcast? Every single instrument on the stage was close-miced, with any reverb coming from electronics, which is obvious if you know about such things. If you don't know about such things then you're just spouting pseudo-knowledgable rubbish with comments about the acoustics. If you can't understand the words being sung (which were in fact perfectly clear) then blame the engineers at the BBC.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Brakn
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:41 AM

Yorkshire.... nail on the head

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 09:41 PM

I didn't get a chance to see it (we don't have a telly), but spoke with a (trad folkie) friend who did see it & said he was quite disappointed; he felt the acoustics of the hall weren't very good and it was very hard to understand the words she was singing -- that the songs didn't really end up getting put across very well, even though she does have a gorgeous voice. Anyone else feel that way, or is it just him?

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Willa
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 06:19 PM

That's right, CR - my mistake.I sang it on St George's Day and did remember to credit Maggie.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 01:23 PM

Kathleen,

Go to the Quick Links at the top of the page, choose Login from the dropdown menu and enter your Mudcat name and password. If you can't remember them, I think you have to email some Mudcat bigshot, probably Pene Azul. Try him anyway: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Kathleen in VA
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 12:51 PM

Roly,

At the present moment, I don't know how to do this cookie thing.
I can either waith for my stepson tonight to do it or maybe you could e-mail me at

[e-mail]

Is that okay?

Kathleen

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 11:53 AM

In search of England?

That would be A Place Called England written by Maggie Holland which won best orginal song at the BBC Folk Awards in 1989.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: RolyH
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 11:06 AM

Kathleen.
If you restore your cookie,you have a message.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Kathleen in VA
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM

Once again.. does anyone know if the audio portion of the JT program will be available? I am a huge fan of June's and she once performed a concert in our venue the night after she heard that one of her pets was killed. It was so sad to greet her at the door with the news to call home. She did an outstanding concert anyway.



Kathleen

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Willa
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 10:52 AM

An excellent two hours (9pm to 11pm)on BBC4. Wouldn't need many of those to feel I'd had good value for my licence money!
June's opening song is one of my favourites - 'In Search of England' another.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 05:06 AM

Great to see and hear June and Martin together again.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 04:49 AM

CR, sorry for misunderstanding, I'm a rather sensitive guy! The person that my nephew met was Roseanne Cash. He's with the bbc and they did an interview with her quite recently about her father.

The JT singing was wonderful as was the music. My only criticism: too many overly serious, depressing songs.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:20 PM

I think Iv just seen the perfect session.
What a singer ...What a woman.... What a backing group.
Wasn't Martin Simpson great.
My faith in the future of the music has been restored.
God bless the BBC,if there is one....God I mean....Ake

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM

Hi Kitty

Contemporary, yes but I didn't know her well then. I didn't even go to the Heritage, sorry!   She and I only really met later when we both worked in London, me at C# House, she as a librarian.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:18 PM

Countess - were you a contemporary of June's when she sang with Mistral? (I only arrived in Oxford after she'd graduated and gone to the Taylorian..)

Kitty

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:05 PM

What's nasty about that, Big Tim? I only asked what Dylan said, not having had the opportunity to speak to him myself for the past 40 years...

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Kathleen in VA
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:55 PM

Sorry I forgot to preview.. the word is "kind" not kid.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Kathleen in VA
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:54 PM

Will there be any kid souls taping or recording this Program for sharing by the U.S. fans?

It would be great for some of the Folk radio programs if there was an audio copy...


Just a thought.

Kathleen

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM

Can I be the oldest June Tabor fan???
I bet there wont be much competition for that!!!...Ake
PS.Hope you all enjoy the session, friends.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:10 PM

That's a bit nasty Countess Richard, I use to quite like you!                                                               

If Ake thinks he's the biggest fan, who's to say otherwise, because no one else knows: it IS a personal thing. Little Hawk probably thinks he's a bigger Dylan fan than me, but I don't think so: at least that's my personal opinion.

Anyway, tonight's the night, it's gonna be alright.

btw, I have spoken to someone, my nephew, who has spoken to someone who knows Dylan well.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:03 AM

Well what was Dylan's opinion then, Big Tim? Martin Simpson who was June Tabor's accompanist for many years does a great version of Boots of Spanish Leather. Maybe you could ask him about that too?

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM

If Ake says he's the biggest fan, then he's the biggest fan, OK!
(I'v been through this with Dylan!).

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:54 AM

No, the worlds biggest June Tabor fan would be Jim Moray... Who was also there.

As he certainly was but I didn't like to mention it in case it looks like a case of 'stars in my eyes'. But Jim hasn't been a fan as long as I have, so there!

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GMT
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:28 AM

I've put a yellow sticky on my lunchbox so I absolutely, definitely will not forget to record this. (I will not forget, I will not forget).

Cheers
Gary

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:22 AM

No, the worlds biggest June Tabor fan would be Jim Moray... Who was also there.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:55 PM

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:49 PM

Thanks Countess....Hope you didn't mind me asking, I'v been the worlds biggest June fan since I was a young man,and it seems to be impossible to find anybody who knows what shes really like.
Im really looking forward to the show,Thanks for the info Rain Dog ....Ake

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:59 AM

That Guest was me with wandering cookie.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:56 AM

Akenaton

A resemblance eh? Wish I could sing like June. No, no relation.

Subject: RE: June Tabor on BBC TV
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:37 AM

The History Man does not appear to have made the cut

Full set list and further details can be found here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/music/features/june-tabor.shtml