BS: Affect and effect.

Subject: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:27 PM

Affect is a verb. Effect is usually a noun (although you can effect a change in something, and then effect is a verb). The effect upon something that is affected can be very affecting. So please stop talking about people being "effected" by this or that. They are being affected, not effected. Got it? The way that they are affected IS the effect of whatever is affecting them, and irregardless is not a proper word, regardless of what you think about it. Then there's affection...people never seem to spell that one wrong for some reason...so why do they get Affect and Effect confused so much? It's infectious.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:34 PM

LIttle Hawk:

Affect is also a noun. And effect is also a verb. These are all legitimate uses:

1. The psychological effect was so profound that she demonstrated a complete release of affect.

2. I hate the way some people affect the forms of literature without the corresponding depth, as though they were just trying to create an effect.

3. Make all the plans and laws and schedules you like, but do not seek to effect them without consent. To do so would affect people adversely, I am sure.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:37 PM

Granted, Amos. That does not alter the fact that people are constantly typing "effect" in places where they should say "affect".

Now, let's say that they did this with more words. Then my first sentence might have read:

Graunted, Amos. Thet dos not altar the fact thet people are constintly tiping "effect" in plases where they shood say "affect".

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:41 PM

Then you would write like jOhn.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:46 PM

I wonder why we don't have a word "effection" to put alongside "affection". Quite what it would mean I can't think right now, but I'm sure there's a meaning out there looking for a word.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 04 - 06:48 PM

Very useful web site HERE.

Specifically to the point, affect THIS and it will have a salutary effect.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 04 - 07:02 PM

Thank you, Don. That site does indeed cover the whole matter, as follows:

There are four distinct words here. When "affect" is accented on the final syllable (a-FECT), it is a verb meaning "have an influence on": "The million-dollar donation from the industrialist did not affect my vote against the Clean Air Act." A much rarer meaning is indicated when the word is accented on the first syllable (AFF-ect), meaning "emotion." In this case the word is used mostly by psychiatrists and social scientists— people who normally know how to spell it. The real problem arises when people confuse the first spelling with the second: "effect." This too can be two different words. The more common one is a noun: "When I left the stove on, the effect was that the house filled with smoke." When you affect a situation, you have an effect on it. The less common is a verb meaning "to create": "I'm trying to effect a change in the way we purchase widgets." No wonder people are confused. Note especially that the proper expression is not "take affect" but "take effect"—become effective. Hey, nobody ever said English was logical: just memorize it and get on with your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 07:19 PM

Yeah. Numerical adjectives and the change of the noun form (sometimes).

One bus, two bus(s)es.

So, why change the noun form when the adjective tells us there is more than one bus?

Now: One deer, two deer.

OK. Try explaining THAT to a kid who didn't grow up using English.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 04 - 07:29 PM

Gwendolyn and Myrtle went shopping. Gwendolyn bought a blouse. Myrtle bought two blice.

I think Shelley Berman did a whole routine on this a millenium or two back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 04 - 07:30 PM

Duel carriageway

Naval orange

Reading the marriage bans

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Mudlark
Date: 31 May 04 - 07:39 PM

The confusion is endless...what about further and farther, another pair that send me screaming to my Strunk & White "Elements of Style." My English friend says she just sticks with further as it sounds better. Strunk claims farther is used for distance, further for time or quantity. Good as this little book is, it doesn't cover everything. Folk is listed only as a collective noun equivalent to "people." There is no mention of music at all!

Don Firth....thanks for a useful site for a grammatically challenged writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: IvanB
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:07 PM

One of my favorites was the "appraise/apprise" difference. My former boss always asked us to keep him "appraised" of the situation, even after I had used the term "apprise" in his presence repeatedly. However, a recent novel I read had the supervisor asking her underling to keep her "apprized." I assume the supervisor wished to make sure that, if there was a reward, she got her share.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: 42
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:11 PM

apropos of nothing..is it potehto or potahto

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:18 PM

The English language comprises many streams of linguistic legacy which in turn compose the English tongue. But they do not comprise it -- it comprises them. This is a pet peeve but it is also a losing battle as more and more poeple are abandoning "comprise" to the encroaching definition of "compose".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:40 PM

CNN evidently has at least one "banner" editor (those graphic overlays that appear at the bottom of the screen almost constantly) who spells like he/she pronounces. The other day there was a piece about John Kerry and his problems deciding what stance to take about the war.....I barely heard what the announcer was saying, because at the bottom of the screen in big, red letters it said:

"Wither Kerry on Iraq?"

This stayed on the screen for several minutes. I suppose the editor had never known there was EVER an "h" in the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 04 - 09:43 PM

That is pathetic -- on a par with people who say that "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" means "Where are you, Romeo?". It is troubling, disturbing, unsettling, irritating, unnerving, peeving, annoying, and it also pisses me off.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:20 PM

Principle, principal

capital, capitol

Dave Oesterreich

(Looking at that last line, I guess I made a mistake. Nobody ever confused "Dave" with "Oesterreich.)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 04 - 10:51 PM

The 'wither'- 'whither' confusion comes, I believe, from the different way different regions pronounce the 'hw' sound. The east coast of America tends to pronounce it 'w', as in 'wale' for whale; wat for what and so on.

The west coast pronounces it correctly. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:01 PM

The one thing other than all the other things that drive me nuts is the inability of people to use 'fewer' and 'less' appropriately. That, and people who say "I seen it". And "it's" as the possessive.

Thank y'all for allowing me to get that off my chest.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Gypsy
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:09 PM

I love reading misused contractions out loud..........sans contraction. Really makes the point. For more fun, any read "Ladle Rat rotten hut" lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:23 PM

I'll sell you the tory of rittle lat hotten rood.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Cruiser
Date: 31 May 04 - 11:49 PM

A common grammaticality involves the misusage of:

Insure (or ensure) versus assure.

Isn't it funny how we can't forget (like an musical earworm) the mnemonics we learned in early grade school like "i before e except after c" (and there are exceptions of course, or is that coarse!)

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 12:18 AM

Using "affect" for "emotion" annoys me for some reason. "Flat affect" -- why can't they say "emotionless"?

But what bugs me most lately are the people who write "loose" for "lose." On the other hand, "irregardless" doesn't bother me much.

I do like to keep "imply" and "infer" separate, though, and don't get me started on "retrofit" and "pre-recorded." Especially "pre-recorded at an earlier time."

I pronounce the "h" in "what" & "whine" & "wheat", but not in "who," though I don't know why. That's pronounced "hwy."

I also pronounce the "l" in "wolf," and I say "gotten." And "jist" and "probly." I think I say "might could" sometimes, too.

pedantically,
clint

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 12:24 AM

The most flexible word in English concerning parts of speech:

Fuck! The Fucking fucker's fuck is fucking fucked!

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 07:36 PM

"insure" and "ensure" are quite different. Insure is usually a process of laying a monetary bet on something of value. Ensure is to create a situation to raise the probability of a desired result.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 07:52 PM

oh, Ebbie..."The west coast pronounces it correctly. *G*"

*I* and several careful friends are on the East Coast! *G*....dolts are everywhere!

I knew kids in Kansas who would say "I saw the farmer plowing his 'filled'". made me shudder. I suspect some of the problem is how little some kids READ anymore. If you never see the words in print, it is hard to know what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Jun 04 - 07:56 PM

We saw a sign in a window today reading:

"Applications currently being excepted"

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 12:10 AM

Well, I think that is par for any job opening -- a few get asked in for interviews, but the majority are excepted!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Escamillo
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 01:48 AM

I have seen the misuse of "effect" instead of "affect" many times, especially in the media. Since I kept using those words properly, I thank you for confirming I was right. For a foreigner who uses English as second language, that's not bad !

(I also speak Computerese)
Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:22 AM

Well thanks for being the spelling police around here, LH. I have put that website you mentioned, Don, onto my favorites list but I'll be damned if I'll check my spelling and grammmer each time before I send off a post.

I know I make mistakes on occasion, but if I seriously began to worry that someone on mudcat is sitting on the other end of their computer screen with a mental red pencil, correcting me, I'd think twice about posting- and I don't want to.

Sorry, but this thread really effected me...affected me...effected me...affected me....effected me...

And by the by, we are talking about one of the most mixed-up languages on the planet! Ask anyone who has to learn it as a second language, or anyone who has studied how it developed. Even today the British and Americans disagree on many spellings. I prefer the British spelling of such words as colour, theatre, centre,...and can only smile when an American friend mentions it as some kind of subliminal betrayal.

I once wrote and producted a script for children called "The Word Explorers", about the origin of the English Language. Beware, I might just have to dig it up and put some of it online!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 04:09 AM

And then all these inconsistencies in doubling letters. Why is it 'resources' when we spell 'Ressourcen', why is 'address' when we spell 'Adresse', why is it 'committee' when we spell 'Komitee'? Only to make it more difficult for me.

Affing Anglisch.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Hrothgar
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 04:46 AM

I love the English language because all these problems creste a Paradise for punsters. That is probably one of the principal principles of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: clueless don
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:11 AM

Amos, I try to be careful regarding comprise and compose (I have been told "the whole comprises the parts. The parts compose the whole.") But I have trouble when people use the expressions "is comprised of" or "is composed of".

GUEST,Clint Keller, how would one *not* pronounce the "l" in "wolf"? "woof"?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:20 AM

Don...almost---some leave out the 'l' in many words, turning wolf into something like 'wöwf'... l & r & s are several sounds which seem to be treated very differently in some languages and cultural groups.
I try to shrug about it, while realizing that there IS a standard, ususally defined these days by the newscasters of the national TV and radio programs...(I was told many years ago that in Germany, where various dialects are used, there is a common form known as "die Umgangsprache" or 'universal speech', which most people can approximate and use. This seems like a good idea to me.

Ellenpoly-- it seems that in 'most' cases where English and American differ in spelling, the American choice is for the shorter form....think of all the ink we save!

...oh, BTW..(by the way) ......
there -- their -- they're

'nuff said

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM

Don:

It is legitimate to say that the whole is composed of the parts, just as it is to say the parts compose the whole.

But there is no such phrase as "is comprised of" until you allow the second, later definition of "comprise" as a synonym to "compose", which I view as an error in usage.

However, it is an error that is gaining acceptance, as often happens in languiage -- ain't that the truth?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: clueless don
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 12:05 PM

Thanks Amos. I see the expression "is comprised of" quite a bit, and I never know if it is used correctly or not, in terms of mixing up the parts and the whole. Your message makes it clear that the expression itself is wrong.

Bill, your reference to there -- their -- they're reminds me of a couple of things. One is a favorite saying of mine:

He didn't have the mettle to meddle with my metal medal.

The other is a usage that actually arose naturally in a conversation once upon a time. Years ago there were to be a pair of concerts at the Washington Monument grounds (Washington DC, USA) on a Saturday and Sunday. I knew that the Saturday concert was scheduled to run from 2:00 PM to 2:00 AM, and a friend wondered what the hours for the Sunday concert were. I looked it up, and then informed him that the Sunday concert was scheduled to run from two to two too.

Really happened!

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 12:11 PM

hello, waht all this is about?

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 12:21 PM

Right. "Woof." Pl. Wooves.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 12:34 PM

jOhn, most of this is about the English language, so you need not worry; it has nothing to do with you.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

Things (along the same lines) that bug me:

- missing apostrophes... and apostrophes where they shouldn't be
- loose instead of lose (my husband consistently does that one -- even though he's one of the most intelligent people I know)
- then instead of than
- a reference to something having "peaked" someone's interest
- someone "waiting with baited breath"

However, I also remind myself that many extremely intelligent people are bad spellers. ("Some of my best friends..." ;-) ) On a forum like Mudcat, it's only fair to make allowances; people are typing quickly and are thinking of their messages as casual rather *formal* communications. That said, it is a real pleasure to read posts that use the appropriate words, as well as correct spelling, grammar & punctuation.

What *really* bothers me is when I see these kinds of mistakes in a book, magazine or newspaper. After all, even if the actual writer(s) can't spell etc., the editor(s) are *paid* to know better (aren't they?). A particularly egregious (to me, anyway) example I still remember -- even though I saw it at least 10 years ago -- in big letters on one of the first few pages of a book: "FORWARD"

Aaaaaaagh!

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 02:37 PM

It took me a minute to realize what your complaint (using FORWARD instead of FOREWORD) was!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,nonbookish
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:14 PM

What's wrong with "FORWARD" at the beginning of a book?? That tells you which way to go to read the book. Just being helpful. You just gotta overstand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Geek
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:17 PM

I make between 8K and 10K a week (US) writin computer language. i could give a shit about english. for $200 (US) a MONTH I can hire a english major to do the riting.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:18 PM

jOhn, most of this is about the English language, so you need not worry; it has nothing to do with you.

Dave Oesterreich


Spoken like a true Oesterreicher (or should that be Austrian?).


A local discount store was recently selling impatients in the garden section. The lady who was working had never heard of the correct name of them (and got fairly impatien with me for pointing out the problem.

-----

Why do we pronuonce the word one as wun?

What happened to the w?

Wait, it just jumped a number amd resides in two (which still doesn't need it).

comb, bomb, tomb - what's up there? We don't pronnounce the b in them and the o is different in each.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:20 PM

oops, sorry that GUEST above was me.

Blackcatter

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:28 PM

Blackcatter:

It gets a lot clearer if you notice the many different streams of change that c0ome together in what we now call English. Expecting it to be coherent and uniform and consistent is unrealistic, because it is born out of chaos and involves thousands of major vectors. It is not surprising a number of inconsistencies and contradictions are still present in it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 03:46 PM

We do pronounce the b in them; we do in 'bomb'!

Bomb buh buh bomb buh bomb buh bomb bomb buh
Dand duh uhd dang . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 07:40 PM

ah . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 07:43 PM

Hi Amos,

I did wonder if I should have perhaps "spelled it out" a bit better, but I decided anyone who'd bothered to read that far would probably figure it out... ;-)

There's a brilliant poem that starts off:

Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.
I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy;
Tear in eye, your dress you'll tear;
Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.
Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, hear and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word.

There are another 11 verses, which can be found here. Who wrote it? Depends on which website you believe:

"Multi-national personnel at North Atlantic Treaty Organization headquarters near Paris found English to be an easy language... until they tried to pronounce it. To help them discard an array of accents, the verses below were devised. After trying them, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six months at hard labor to reading six lines aloud. Try them yourself."

or:

"A Dutch school teacher and author, Dr. Gerard Nolst Trenité (1870-1946), ...wrote a long poem, De Chaos, first published in Amsterdam as an appendix to the fourth edition of his schoolbook Drop Your Foreign Accent, engelsche uitspraakoefeningen (Haarlem: H D Tjeenk Willink & Zoon, 1920).

"In an article entitled The Classic Concordance of Cacographic Chaos, published by the Simplified Spelling Society in 1994, Chris Upward, of Birmingham, England, a vice-president of the Society, wrote: 'The Chaos represents a virtuoso feat of composition, a mammoth catalogue of about 800 of the most notorious irregularities of traditional English orthography, skilfully versified (if with a few awkward lines) into couplets with alternating feminine and masculine rhymes.' "

There's also another very clever poem in a similar vein called The English Lesson, which can be found here (scroll down a bit).

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 08:06 PM

English is one helluva language, and you can take that a couple of different ways. One thing that makes it so is that it's an amalgam of several different languages, mainly Germanic and Latin, but lots of other stuff as well. And even now, it acts like a sponge, slurping in useful words from all over the world, and taking specialized jargon and letting it ooze into general usage. English vocabulary includes somewhere around 600,000 words, whereas Latin-based languages such as French, Italian, and Spanish encompass around 150,000 to 180,000 words. [If you think this is wrong and I'm being some sort of English language chauvinist pig, check a good authoritative book on linguistics—I'm not making this up.] This allows speakers of English to say what may sound like the same thing a half-dozen different ways, which permits a wide range of nuance and subtlety. This is not to say that subtlety isn't possible in the Romance languages, for example, but it's just easier in English. Any attempt to claim that English poetry is superior to, say, French poetry is just dumb. But the French poet may have to work a bit harder to get the nuances he or she wants.

But that has it's downside. It makes it much easier to screw up, as we see here. When you have two or more very similar words that also denote essentially the same thing, but imply slight differences, you can easily wind up being misunderstaken (how's that for making one up on the spot!??). Also. the horde of words from the various languages that contribute to this slumgullion we call English usually bring with them their own spelling conventions, and often their own conventions for pronunciation. More bewilderment for the innocents!

I've been a word freak since my father bought the family a good dictionary back when I was about seven or eight. I used to belly-flop on the floor in front of the bookcase and read the thing like a novel. That, and our set of encyclopedia. Now, within arm's reach of where now I'm sitting, I have five dictionaries (not counting the massive "compact edition of the OED because it's in the living room), several (what the hell is the plural of "thesaurus!??" Oh. "Thesauri." Okay, if Merriam-Webster says so), and about a dozen style manuals (Chicago, New York Times, etc., along with Strunk and White and Fowler), so I'm not without resources if find myself in doubt. I've been writing almost all my life, including a stint as an advertising copy writer (writing and voicing radio commercials) and some years as a technical writer, so I think I have it down pretty well. BUT—I'll read through something I've carefully proof-read before I printed it out, or something I posted here, and almost invariably I find at least a couple screw-ups—things I missed. I'm real good with "i before e except after c." but I'm horrified at the number of times I mean "their" and type "there" instead (I certainly know better), or my most consistent typo, "form" instead of "from," and of course the spell-checker isn't going to catch that sort of thing.

Try to get it right, but don't beat yourself up. This is one of these things where perfection is wa-a-a-a-ay down the hall. I'll betcha even Strunk & White and Fowler goof-up from time to time.

Don Firth

P.S.: Okay, I'm going to post this now. I wonder how many typos and boo-boos I'll find when it appears on the thread. . . ?

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:05 AM

Bravo, Senor Don. Tu es muy simpatico!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Escamillo
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 03:55 AM

Tú "eres" muy simpático :)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 11:59 AM

At least one, Don Firth, to wit, But that has it's downside.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:31 PM

Then there are those who can't seem to get the difference between palette, palate and pallet. Even food writers bollix this one. Aaargghh!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:34 PM

Damn!! Quick eye, Uncle Dave. Possessive, not contraction.

I also missed the close quote after "compact edition" in reference to the OED. Not only do I describe the problem, I illustrate it as well.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 12:37 PM

Don, at least it shows that someone was actually reading what you wrote.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:08 PM

And I'm not real sure* that there should be a hyphen in "goof-up" the way I have used it. I intended it as a verb, in which case "goof up" would probably be more correct. "Goof-up" implies that I intended it to be a noun. Merriam-Webster fails to enlighten me on this, but it does show "goof-off" as a noun rather than a verb. [Having thought it over a bit, I think to "goof up" means to blunder. "Goof-up" means either the blunderer or the blunder itself.]   

But I'd better quit goofing off. I've got of writing to do today, and if I don't get it done, it will qualify as a goof-up.

Don Firth

*I know, I know. To be strictly correct, this should be "really sure," but I'm trying to be a bit informal here. . . .

P.S.: I'm reminded of the story about the ant who asked the centipede, "How do you walk with all those legs?" The centipede blinked a few times, then said, "It's easy. I just pick up this leg . . . no, this one, and then I . . . well, no . . . lemme see . . . I start with this one, then I. . . . " At which point, he zigzags all over the sidewalk and tumbles into the gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:18 PM

Gracias, Escamillo!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:32 PM

The centipede was happy quite
Until someone in fun
Said "Pray which leg comes after which?"
He lay distracted in a ditch
Considering how to run

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM

Sounds a little like the current administration!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:40 PM

Yeah - here in Oz too!

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:54 PM

Got a copy of the Innovations catalogue in the mail today; one of the spreads featuring kitchen items is labeled "kitchen kitch". Sigh...

English vocabulary includes somewhere around 600,000 words, whereas Latin-based languages such as French, Italian, and Spanish encompass around 150,000 to 180,000 words.

My (English) husband tells me that -- in most cases -- you can say something in English more "efficiently" than in other languages. If you take a look at the (EU-compliant) labelling on packages over here, it would seem to prove his point; whether it's a description of the food or a list of ingredients, the bits in English always take up considerably less space than the same thing in other languages.

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 02:05 PM

Was looking through the Inspirations catalogue today; one of the spreads featuring kitchen items is labeled "kitchen kitch". Sigh...

English vocabulary includes somewhere around 600,000 words, whereas Latin-based languages such as French, Italian, and Spanish encompass around 150,000 to 180,000 words.

My (English) husband says English is the most "efficient" language. If you take a look at the (EU compliant) labelling on packages over here, it appears to bear this out; whether describing an item or listing ingredients, the bits in English are almost always *considerably* shorter than in any of the other (11?) languages.

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 02:55 PM

bits in English are almost always *considerably* shorter than in any of the other (11?) languages

That is true, I've worked on the Spanish translations of U.S. textbooks (I worked on the formatting, not the language) and it is always difficult to fit the Spanish into the same space as the original English. This is true even in books for 1st through 6th grades where the language is a simple and very few "long" English words are used. We have one of the most compact languages, I believe, though I'm not sure if it is just the over-all length of the words commonly used.

By the way, that last sentence had, by my count, 88 words and used only 2 words of ten letters or more. On the other hand there were 44 words with 3 or less letters - fully 50%. We use contractions a lot - but of course in formal writing they're still a no-no.

as for real sure Arrgh! How did it happen that we stopped using "LY" so often? I'm usually not a stickler for "proper use" but so many people in the last 20 years don't even know that it's incorrect. What bothers me is the use of "fast" instead of "quickly." A car can be fast, but it doesn't "go fast" it "goes quickly."

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:11 PM

. . . and then there's adjectives of degree (which should be " . . . there are adjectives of degree . . . ") such as good, better and best. One may have only one best friend, for if one has two, then one must have one of one's better friends. But then one of one's better friends might get miffed and become an ex-friend, thus actually leaving one with one best friend and only one better friend. However, a good friend wouldn't do that. I likely could have said that better. It wasn't my best, but it was good enough I hope. I expect one of my good friends will comment, and then one of my better friends will comment, and then one of my best friends will comment, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 09:25 PM

Sorry for the double post -- the first time I hit "submit" I got an error message & assumed it didn't get through...

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 09:31 PM

my brother is handsome, but my cousin is handmore....still, I am by far the handmost.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 10:56 PM

..and our PM, little Johnnie Howard, is handless (and less of everything else too)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 12:29 AM

I am bothered by the fact that I hear more and more people in the media (who should know better) using the non-word "nucular" instead of "nuclear".

Just because the President is a moron, does everybody else have to dumb it all down?

But then again educational policies seem to have have long been in the hands of people that happily refer to Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic as "The 3 R's".

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Escamillo
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:08 AM

And could someone explain to me for which mysterious reason the name SEAN is pronounced as SHOWN ? Could it be of Irish or Welsh origin?

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:12 AM

Sean is pronounced shorn, shorely

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:28 AM

Two mice sat in their hole watching a Cat lurk outside. "I know how to make Cat go away," said the first mouse. "How?" the second mouse asked in surprise.

"Watch! Bow, wow!!!" barked the first mouse. Peering through their hole in the wall, they saw Cat running away in fear.

"Ah, see the benefit of knowing another language!"

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:44 AM

Don, having scoured your post above, the only additional flaw in your usage I can see is your use of punctuation which is odd where you use quotation marks e.g. "Thesaurus??!" rather than "Thesaurus"??! If you don't like thesauri use thesauruses, and octopuses instead of octopodes and chrysalises instad of chrysalides, and cactuses instead of cacti. They're all accepted in the 'Concise Oxford'.

How's that for picky?

But where did you find the long dash on the keyboard (two-em rule?)?
Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:02 AM

the double dash can be done (on a PC) using "alt 0151" (the short one is "alt 0150) - — ? ? ? (hey...do you all see those? I accidently tapped into other fonts, because I also have a helper program, and mixed it with the "alt key" ? ? ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:04 AM

Sean is a Gaelic name. It means "old," I beleive, I know that the traditional type of Irish singing is "Sean nos" which basically means "old style."


A lot of Irish names are "odd looking" because of the way that Gaelic was fit into the Engish lettering/pronnunciation conventions.

Siobhan (Shevaun)
Seamus (Shaymus)
Sinead (Shenayd)

Even non-Irish names were spelled in the Irish way:

Padraig (Patrick)
Mairi (Mary)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:11 AM

— – —— and if you type alt 0151 twice, the dashes join up! Wow

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM

–––Alt 0150 doesn't join up so I can type a dashed line. In word it does join up so I can't, unless I use a non propotionally spaced font.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Hessy
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 12:00 PM

Effection is effecting to affect the affections of your affectee.

Sean is also spelled Sion in some places. The "si" in Irish is usually a "sh" in sound.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:35 PM

s&r, picky is good. Thanks for stirring me to check further.

Most of the older style manuals I have insist that the close quote goes after the other punctuation. I think this must have come from some convention that printers used to follow. There were several oddball things printers used to do that involved protecting easily damaged letters in moveable type when moveable type was made of soft lead, and many of these conventions didn't help the sense of what one was trying to say (such as the position of the quotes). It always seemed more sensible to me, depending on intended meaning, to put the exclamation point or question mark after the close quote, but when I did, teacher invariably circled it with her red pencil. Since I write with publication in mind, I generally attempt to follow standard manuscript practices, so I try to stick pretty close to the style manuals even when I do think something they prescribe is kinda dumb.

However—as I flipped through my copy of Rules for Writers: A Concise Handbook (Second Edition) by Diana Hacker, St. Martin's Press, New York, 1988 (one of my favorites, because things are easy to find and clearly stated), she says differently. "Put commas and periods inside the quotation marks," BUT "Put question marks and exclamation points inside the quotation marks unless they apply to the sentence as a whole" [emphasis mine]. Ah, SO! That makes a heck of a lot more sense. Things have changed since I was in high school (understatement of the year!). I'm going to reevaluate some of the older manuals I have and maybe clean a few out.

They say that a man with one watch always knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never quite sure. Same with style manuals, I guess.

I didn't check "thesaurus" in the OED, I did a "quick and dirty" by looking it up on the Tom Swift magical electric Merriam-Webster I have on my computer. It gives both "thesauri" and "thesauruses" as plurals, but I picked the former just 'cause I'm some kind of a wise guy (as in "smart-ass").

The em dash? For some reason the "alt 0151" doesn't work on my computer. You can get it two ways that I know of: click on Insert > Symbol > Special Characters tab, and there's a list of wild and hairy stuff there, such as ©, ®, §, and several others. The em dash is on the list; but you'll note that it gives you keyboard shortcuts as well. Much faster and easier. For the em dash, hold down CTRL and ALT, and press the minus sign on the number pad. Presto!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:42 PM

Uh—that assumes that you're using a recent edition of MickeySoft Word.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM

If your writing for publication - you should stick to the latest Chicago Manual of Style or some similar in importance style manual to be safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:00 PM

We who use Macs have it much easier. We hold down the Option key and bingo!

¡™£¢?§¶•åß?ƒ©???¬…æ??ç??˜µ??÷

Howdja like THEM Apples?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:10 PM

I've got the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition, which I should probably use instead of some of the briefer (and lighter) paperback ones like Rules for Writers or The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage. I just checked Amazon and they want an arm and a leg for the newest (15th) edition, even with a seventeen buck discount. (Sigh) I guess I should bit the bullet. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: emjay
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 03:41 PM

I dislike writers and speakers who modify unique, as in something was the most unique or very unique. Unusual would be the word to use with the modifiers.
And in speech chuldern for children, Wensday for Wednesday, Febuary for February, and nucular. Ugh. (Isn't that a new book?) And though I have impulsively and rudely corrected other people's speech, I know there is no surer way of guaranteeing your own will be carefully noted.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:09 PM

Do you pronnounce Wednesday & February the way they're spelled? I don't have a dictionary near me right now, but are those even accepted pronnunciations anymore?


Yes the CMS is expensive, but I doubt that too much has changed since the last edition. Do they have a basic website with help?

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM

I was extemely impressed a few weeks ago when I heard Ray Milland (in a Hitchock movie) say "Wednesday" and pronounce every single by-god letter in it.

And he did it very smoothly, as though he was used to pronouncing it that way.

Should I have said "way impressed"?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: emjay
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:47 PM

Yes, I do pronouce them the way they are spelled. The fourth edition of Webster's New World Dictionary gives Febrooary as the preferred, but they do give Wenzday not Wedn-sday. I'll have to accept defeat on that one, but I will continue to pronounce the d before the n. It sounds better to me.
How about culinary? I know it should not be pronounced with a short u as in cull-inary.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 04:51 PM

Thanks for the shortcuts Don. It's strange how conventions change: I remember being incensed by my editor's insistence that we adopt open punctuation, and omit periods and commas here there and everywhere. So Mr.B.J.Honnicutt became Mr B J Honnicutt and addresses had no commas, and paragraphs weren't indented after the first.

I now prefer it.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

I generly say "Winsdy."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

Clint, I was way far impressed you asked that question.

The purpose of punctuation is to clarify the meaning of written English. The language provides us with many opportunities that would (and do) confound people who do not have it as their mother tongue.

"I don't want any potatoes" means the same thing as "I don't want no potatoes." I don't care how much English ya know. When a 280 lb heavy weight world-class kick boxer says he don't want no potatoes, ya don't give him any. All that crap about two negatives equal a positive simply fly out the window. Trust me.

Later.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:16 PM

Yep! Flies. Measure twice, cut once.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 06:27 PM

Please don't do any cutting around my fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:36 PM

I really like the English language and love words. However, I have a fondness for non-standard English "sich" as:

his'n, her'n, haint, if'n, etc.

Them wurds frum the hollers of Appillatcha, Tennessay, and the south.

But don't give me no ebonics or rap!

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM

Ebonics or rap? Do they have cures?

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: HuwG
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:12 PM

There are a few uses of adjectives connected with "affect" and "disaffect" which could scarcely be called consistent.

"Affected", usually refers to a behaviour (or accent) adopted, e.g. to improve one's standing, or merge into a social class or setting.

(For effect <g>.)

For example, an "affected" upper-class accent, might be represented as, "I say, portah ! Carreh this beag [bag] to my compartment !"

However, "disaffected", does not usually mean, natural or sincere. It usually refers to groups of people and means discontented, sullen or rebellious.

("Unaffected" is valid enough, and does mean, unmoved, unimpressed or naturally stolid.)


My complaints about English usage are usually directed to those in petty authority, who use circumlocutory jargon designed to impress. e.g. Police officers, who say "There is a hostage situation, involving a male who has a revolver-type weapon". (Translation: a man armed with a revolver has taken hostages.)

Or too many of the schoolteachers I remember, who could come out with long-winded constructions such as "What you've got to do, is you've got to take etc". What was wrong with, "You must take", or "You take". (Or even "Take", though perhaps that's getting a bit too peremptory, if used consistently.)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Jun 04 - 11:12 PM

Good one brucie.

Ebola is contagious and infectious in a disease sense, but Ebonics or rap aren't contagious or infectious in the best sense of their alternate meanings (e.g. contagious or infectious smile) to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 04 - 11:41 PM

Whew! They sounded so venereal. Glad everything's OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 01:39 PM

HuwG: I'm concerned that you say:
Or too many of the schoolteachers I remember, who could come out with long-winded constructions such as "What you've got to do, is you've got to take etc". What was wrong with, "You must take", or "You take". (Or even "Take", though perhaps that's getting a bit too peremptory, if used consistently.)
Schoolteachers using 'you've got' twice in one sentence. Even one use is tautologous.
'you've got' = you have got. the 'got' is superfluous (I almost typed 'totally superfluous', but stopped myself in time.)

I couldn't understand why my children (ten years ago or so) were describing a simple doubling of a number as "times it by two". It was only at a parent teacher meeting that I was told by a teacher "we mark the tests out of fifty, then times it by two to get a percentage!"


Nigel (proud to be a pedant!)

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:30 PM

Schoolteachers using 'you've got' twice in one sentence. Even one use is tautologous

Does that mean it's quatrologous?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 08:31 PM

No, Dave, if I'd wanted to use an invented word I could (probably) have provided one. But 'tautologous' provided the precice meaning I required.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:10 PM

And, of course, there are the "word whiskers" in spoken English. At one time, "you know" often found its way into just about every sentence, maybe a couple of times per clause. Now it's "like." Often the two are intermingled, such as "like, you know." Thanks to the repeated use of "like" and "you know," there are people who can talk for hours and use only ten or a dozen different words. If a person doesn't have much to say, it helps a lot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:21 PM

I think there is a literal and legitimate distinction between saying "you have x" and "you have got x". The latter is certainly lessformal but I don't think it can be dismissed as improper entirely. After all there are plenty of parallel constructions such "You've bought a lemon". "you've found the missing link", and "you've loosed the cat among the pigeons".

Nigel:

Surely you mean precise. I don't believe there is any such word as precice.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:44 AM

"When you gotta go you gotta go" loses something as "When you have to go you have to go"

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: s&r
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:50 AM

When I was at school there were many words that we were discouraged from using. Instead, we had to find elegant variations. "Forbidden words were 'nice' 'thing' 'got' and any slang. There were others that have no doubt been expunged from my memory. 'Can' instead of'may' was a hanging crime.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:28 AM

Well, now that we're on to *verbal* "offenses" ;-) ...

I hear more & more people refer to "__ a.m. in the morning". This seems to be a fairly recent thing (last 10 years or so?); I don't remember ever hearing it when I was a kid. These days, I even hear it from radio announcers. (Interestingly, I have yet to hear someone say "__ p.m. in the evening".)

Similarly, almost everyone refers to their "PIN number", which is redundant, since the N already stands for number. This one makes more sense to me, though, because referring to your "PI number" is more awkward/might not be understood; referring to your "PIN" also might be confusing to others, so I don't see this changing any time soon.

"I don't want any potatoes" means the same thing as "I don't want no potatoes." I don't care how much English ya know. When a 280 lb heavy weight world-class kick boxer says he don't want no potatoes, ya don't give him any. All that crap about two negatives equal a positive simply fly out the window. Trust me.

There's a story about a lecturer explaining to his English class that while a double-negative equals a positive, there are no incidences of a double-positive equalling a negative. At which point, from the back of the room, a sarcastic voice is heard saying "Yeah, yeah!"

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: JennyO
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 09:35 AM

Along with PIN numbers, there are ATM machines - automatic teller machine machines.

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 10:54 AM

I hear more & more people refer to "__ a.m. in the morning".

This is just illiteracy at work, I'm sure.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 12:37 PM

I dunno... my own mother says it (though I'm sure she didn't when I was young), and she's not illiterate. I don't think she even realises what she's saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:10 PM

Well, ask her if she can define "a.m", mate. No clues, mind you!

Actually you could theoretically argue that the set of minutes included in "ante meridien" includes both morning and forenoon. Therefore, it would be perfectly sensible to say "a.m. in the morning" when referring to the morning watch, but not for the forenoon watch.

Just a wild and hazardous guess!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:04 PM

Quite commonly I'll hear someone say something like "He's a Jewish rabbi."

My comment is, "Yes, and that's the very best kind!"

Along this line, I remember embarrassing myself at a party, when I heard two women discussing a statue that had "a stone male penis".

I said, "That's the very best kind!"

From the looks I got, I don't think they associated my comment with the tautology.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 06:14 PM

Besides, Dave, that ain't necessarily true...ask the man who owns one! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: Affect and effect.
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 06:54 PM

'Can' instead of'may' was a hanging crime.

So, you had to ask if you might go to the may?