Modal Music - How to tell?

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 09:58 AM

The Wild Dulcimer site is very good - making it so specific to a particular instrument really works. But there are places where he says he's going to add more, and the site seems not to have been updated snce 2002. Is it still active?

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 08:08 AM

Search for the wild dulcimer is free on the web. Google wild dulcimer will get you there.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 08:31 AM

I strongly suspect that for some things to just do it is going to make me happpier than to try to understand what it is that I am doing or how it is done.

Though it does explain why I need to write down the last note of the tune and not the first one if I want to track it on a keyboard.

Anne

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: fogie
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 05:07 AM

Right, out with fixed fret /fixed note instruments. Lets get out the moveable fret/ replaceable note instruments and go for it. Start tweaking those Hurdy Gurdies, Sitars, lutes with tied string frets, marimbas, and bottles partly filled with water. Tune them all to completely different modes, get some enthusiastic music theorists, insist on them forming an ensemble, and book a ward in a mental hospital.
Dont you just love threads about modes!

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 01:17 AM

Our friend may go to Berklee, but I don't think he is much more than a sophomore.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 07:23 PM

You have just given us a spectacular demonstration of why Berklee-style academic jazz theory generates the most jarringly tasteless rubbish accompaniments to folk tunes ever invented.

Forget that nonsense and listen for a bit to the music we care about. You might get the point after a few years.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,R.Kaul
Date: 30 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

Modern Musical Scales= Major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor. All of these scales have seven notes and each has its own individual "modes" (except natural minor because it is the same as the major mode) Major= dorian, mixo, lydian etc... but harmonic minor also has common modes like phrygian dominant, melodic minor also has commonly used modes like, the altered scale, and lydian dominant. So it is not true that all modes are diatonic or are from the major scale. Most of the latter scales are basically found only in modern jazz and classical, but nevertheless are still usefull. You could call the altered scale the seventh mode of the melodic minor scale. Modal music can be defined largely into two different catogories. First church gregorian chant modal music, which is a mid-evil form of music before westerners truly discovered harmony and harmony was the result of melodic strands sounded together, and no real chord progressions were produced.(but I'm sure you can find examples that coincidentaly form modern day chord progressions.) Bach and early Bruoque musicians wrote exactly the opposite, writing music with a defined harmonic content while connecting the Harmony with melodic movement, but the harmony was always in check. This music was also very polyphonic, and that was the big difference whith the classical period, which was about clarity and balance and had a much greater homophonic content. RULE #1 If music has no chord progression than it is definitely modal. 2nd type of modal music is modern Jazz, funk, Rock or rap or whatever, However, modal music can have chord progressions, but must coincide with the scale being used. an example is Kind of Blue by miles davis or Oye Comma Va by Sananta, both are dorian mode songs, but Oye Comma Va uses am-DMaj chord progression or a i-IV chord vamp, not to mention melodically you can use notes oustide the dorian mode and still be in a dorian mode jam, by playing (outside) I hope this helps, but I'm sure it will just add to the confusion. Remember no chord progression, always modal. Chord progressions using not diatonic tones, always non-modal. Chord progressions that only use one mode (especailly not Ionian, or Aoelian) usually considered modal, but it is up to the theoroists and how he analyzes the chords and the content of the tune. Modes are talk about by Chord scale theory, like the progression Dm-G7-Cmaj or a ii-V-I you could say the scales used over the Dminor chord use the    D dorian scale, over the Gseventh use the G mixolydian scale,or G altered Scale and over the CMaj use the C major or Ionian scale. trust me I do to Berklee College of music

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:36 AM

Could be--one sort of doubts that there are many people who do this sort of thing, even in Finland--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: AKS
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:18 AM

That might have been the same guy-whose-name-I-never-remember who designed stringed instruments of junk (or, rather, recyclable material perhaps:), for a performance at Helsinki City Festival a few years ago. One that I liked the best looking was that having body made of aluminium washbowl.

AKS

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:17 AM

I met Finnish guy who had built an instrument that looked like it had come from the Bizarro-World--it had a stainless steel body shaped like a cigar box and a long neck with four double courses of strings. He said that he had made it so he could play Greek and Middle Eastern music at a belly dancing restaurant in Helsinki--It was both exotic and loud! This was before the days of the internet, though--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: AKS
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:50 AM

The white keys are the ones that are closer to the player's end - and thus easier to reach - of a keyboardy instrument :-)

What I am suggesting is that it is easier to see the principles of modes, when you forget the chromatic scale for a while.

I had old Finnish pentatonic music in mind when I wrote that "...other exotic..." thing; it does not require black keys either. Well, unless you transpose it to Bb, eg... :-)

AKS

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 09:20 PM

AKS, here is my post from that date and time:

"If you can play a melody on white keys only, it is modal (well, lest it happens to be on some other exotic scale...)"

Do you mean one of those exotic scales like C major? This is the problem with talking about "modes"at all--how do you decide that something is modal rather than major, if all of the modes are really just part of a major scale?

I was quoting you at the time--perhaps I would have been better reply to ask:
"Which keys are the white ones?";-)

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: AKS
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 06:00 AM

I don't know whether you said that, M.Ted, but I quoted it from your post at 08 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM ;-)


AKS

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 02:09 PM

It seems like BruceO once posted a very extensive piece explaining how modes work on the lap dulcimer--I've looked for it a bit, and haven't found it--does anyone else remember?

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 05:18 PM

I've seen that book advertised. I will look around for it. I already have Jean Richie's book which does go into the modes somewhat. Thank you for the suggestion.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 03:50 PM

Maryrrf - When you get your new dulcimer, try to get ahold of an instruction book titled "In Search of the Wild Dulcimer" (can't remember the author - I'm not at home) - It opened my eyes as to the various modes and fairly simply and clearly relates them to the fretting system of the dulcimer.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 03:02 PM

AKS-Did I say that? I've looked through the entire thread, and don't find myself saying anything like that--

If you read what I say above, I think that I am fairly(and monotonously) clear that modes are not just parts of major scales, no matter how fervently and frequently people try to say it, and somewhere, in all of this noise(including the threads listed above) I am fairly sure that I pointed out that the Ionian and Aeolian modes were actually fairly recent additions to music, and if not me, here, a few others have--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 12:29 PM

It all depends on the note you finish on. That is the tonic of the scale. Most often, it is also the note you start on.

(Yes, I know there are some exceptions)

If you finish on D, and play all the white notes, it is Dorian mode.
This sounds a bit like a minor key, and the final chord will be Dminor
Scarborough Fair and Drunken Sailor are well-known Dorian tunes

If you finish on D, and play all the notes of a scale of G, i.e. F# instead of F, you are in a different mode (mixolydian, I think).
The final chord will be DMajor

If you finish on D, but play the notes of a scale of F, you are in the Aeolian mode, and will again finish on a Dminor chord.
This is regarded as the 'natural' minor key, which was modified to make the modern minor.

Another way of looking at it is from the number of sharps or flats you add to the key signature.

C major has none
C Mixolydian has one flat (same notes as F major)
C Dorian has 2 flats (same notes as Bb major)
C Aeolian mode has 3 flats - the same as C Minor or Eb Major).

And so on

These are examples of a general rule
For example:
To get from the major to the Mixolydian, flatten one note in the key signature, either remove a sharp or add a flat, as appropriate

Major to Dorian - two notes are flattened
Major to Aeolian (or minor) - three notes are flattened.
etc.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: AKS
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 08:04 AM

M.Ted "...all of the modes are really just part of a major scale..."

No they, are not! In fact that clause is analoguous to "A lorry / truck is an important part of a diesel engine!"

One has to look at it from a completely different point of view: the modes (Ionian = major, Aeolian = minor included) are groups of the natural notes (or white keys, so to say :-), rather than the major scale being somehow 'original' in this respect.


AKS

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 06:26 AM

You COULD start ANY mode on D - depending on what the pitch you tune the D to... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:34 AM

I am sure it is not coincidence that using the white notes, the Dorian starts on D and the Aeolian on A.

Then they ran out of names matching the letters!

If you want your Dorian scale to start on E, then you must use some black notes! This would equate to the scale of D, with F# and C#

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 12:59 AM

G'day GUEST (Garg ... ?) - and whoever queried the e' down to E ... ,

One reason that's not d' down to D, as in modern Dorian Mode / notes of C major scale, is that Garg was talking about the Greek modes ... not the names that St Ambrose & the Church gave them (mostly wrong)!

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 12:43 AM

Hush lil chilen hush again

It is up loft in Gargoyle's bin.

Dorian mode descends by the following steps, ++-++-tetrachordsall these steps are whole tone except the two semitone from c' to b and F to E, and by representing a whole step by a (+) and a half step by a (-), it will be seen that this Dorian mode descends by the following steps, ++-++-tetrachords. The word chord with them meant "string" not "harmony," for their whole music took its rise from their lyre, a stiff and limited, unfretted instrument of many poetical associations but stinted in practical possibilities called the Dorian tetrachord. The superimposed on the top note e' a similarly tetrachod of the tones a', g', f', e, and added below another e,d,c,B. To those they added the low A as a supplementary (in Greek ,prslambanomenos). The outer couples of tetrachords overlap. Between the middle two is an imaginary lime of separation (diazeuxix), Each of these was therefore a "dijunct" (diazengmon) tetrachord. The "complete system" (systema teleion) of two octave (a' down to A) was divided thus into four tetrachords, each of them given the name which (with its English translation) is shown in the chart here overlapping of "conjunct" (<>I>synemmenon tetrachord in which the b was flat toned d',c',bb, a (++-)


The octave from e' down to E was, as already stated, called the Dorian mode Other portions of the systema were given other names d to D being called the Phrygian c' to C the Lydian and b to B the Mixo-Lydian

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:54 PM

It doesn't help to add a qualifier, like "musical", either--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:31 PM

BTW, do not try to search for 'wandering dominant' on the web, or at least do not encourage your children to do so... you won't get music links, that's for sure... ;-)

No! Stop! Don't all rush off...

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:22 PM

"period of the wandering dominant"

...sounds like the title of a novel...

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 03:25 PM

Well, the 5th note does not HAVE to be the "dominant". That's all I understand, and I don't have the book to hand. It does mutter about a period in Church music called the "period of the wandering dominant".

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 02:55 PM

Of course it is! This is what you posted, though: " However, the (white-note) scale starting on C does NOT have to be regarded as a Major key, it can be regarded, and harmonised, as a mode. (At least, that's what the books say). Apparently, you can refer to "Summer is Icumin in" as an example. " and I was curious to know what they could have been talking about--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 02:06 PM

I think it is the other way round. Harmonising has developed further in Major key. Chords which are now regarded as harmonies, such as the dominant 7th, were once regarded as discords. And you wouldn't put jazz chords to the type of tunes which were formerly written.

In fact, the invention of modern harmony was one reason why the other modes dropped out of use in all but folk music, which was predominantly melodic rather than harmonic.

The Major key has a 'leading note' a semitone below the tonic, which is missing in many of the modes, and is essential for a full cadence.

The 'natural' (modal) minor was modifed into the 'Harmonic' Minor by sharpening the 7th note as necessary for that reason.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 12:13 PM

What can you do when harmonizing it as a mode that you couldn't do if it was a major key?

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 10:00 AM

Exactly right - the Major key is one the same as one of the modes.

However, the (white-note) scale starting on C does NOT have to be regarded as a Major key, it can be regarded, and harmonised, as a mode. (At least, that's what the books say). Apparently, you can refer to "Summer is Icumin in" as an example.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:54 AM

"If you can play a melody on white keys only, it is modal (well, lest it happens to be on some other exotic scale...)"

Do you mean one of those exotic scales like C major? This is the problem with talking about "modes"at all--how do you decide that something is modal rather than major, if all of the modesare really just part of a major scale?

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: AKS
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:28 AM

I think an approach to understanding the basics of the (7) modes is to cover the black keys of a piano (or any other keyboard instrument)! If you can play a melody on white keys only, it is modal (well, lest it happens to be on some other exotic scale...); in principle, there are no flats nor sharps in (real) modes.

Transposing is another story then.

AKS

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 06:05 AM

It may be of interest that House of the Rising Sun is included in the Greensleeves family (at least, the Dylan/Animals group of versions).

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

Thank you, Gargoyle. There aren't that many mountain dulcimer players in Richmond (although we have plenty of banjo players) but I have found a couple of leads and will check out your links. Can't wait till it comes!

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 01:09 PM

Maryrrr-

That is a BEAUTIFUL dulcimer - there are hours and hours of fun ahead.

Being in Richmond - you are in the heart of mountain dulcimer country - no doubt - there are some fine teachers in your area. PLEASE start out with a few lessons. There are lots of weekend workshops on the eastern seabord - and Wolf Trap, and Williamsburg.

You might enjoy:
http://www.jcrmusic.com/cat.book_beginners.html

http://www.bearmeadow.com/smi/starting.htm

To find a teacher in your area try (use fretted dulcimer for search)
http://www.teachlist.com/

Work hard, have fun, make music.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:42 PM

Pavane: I think we might be in agreement(or maybe not), Jiggy (6/8) tunes were notated in 3/4 or 6/4 back in the Greensleeves era.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:29 PM

I was not talking about the versions of Greensleeves itself, but of the whole (extensive) group of tunes which are related to it.
(This is a classification or grouping used by scholars)

Greensleeves is much slower than other members of the group. Note also that compound time (x/8) was not used until quite recently.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM

It was the DAD mixolydian dulcimer tuning that made me blurt that out about DADGAD. I was confused. Thanks for clearing that up, Russ.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

Pavane:What distinction are you making between 3/4 and 6/8 in the various versions of Greensleeves? Historically people have notated it in 6/8, 6/4 or 3/4, but that is surely a matter of taste in notation; it has no implication on the sound or rhythm of the music (though you might expect to play 3/4 slower thaan 6/8, in modern notation anyway).

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: pavane
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 08:20 AM

The 'Greensleeves' group of tunes share a common 'chord sequence' which is basically modal, but Greensleeves itself has been modified in two ways from the main group

a) Time changed from 6/8 to 3/4
b) Tune changed to minor key rather than modal, by adding the sharps as noted.

See, for example, Shepherd o Shepherd (will you come home..)

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 07:59 AM

That last post of mine should have said "as applied to modes" in the first sentence, not "as applied to music". Sorry.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 07:54 AM

Now it was starting to get interesting, discussing the "rules" of music, as applied to music. Now if you analyse a nbit of music, you soon spot some patterns emerging. You might see that pieces by Mozart virtually never use parallel 5ths; or you might spot that a certain fiddler's tunes were all in the "modes"( in the modern, classification by scale-type sense:Ionian, Myxolydian etc). Now is the "no parallel 5ths" pattern a "rule" that Mozart was following, or is it a description of Mozart's composing style? Or, possibly, something between the two? And that fiddler: is he/she consciously adjusting the repertoire so all the tunes are consistently "modal", or is he just playing the tunes that he likes(or remembers).
   This is fairly crucial to any understanding of musical "theory". same with grammar. We mostly have a good, consistent way of using definite and indefintie articles (whether we say "a tree" or "the tree" according to context). But how many people have ever given this much though, or could beging to explain rationally the "rules" that determine when either one is used. The fact is, for most people it is instinctive. You dont need to "know the rues" to get it right. It's a different bit of your brain.
   Same with modes.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:38 PM

"BruceO (may his name ever be praised), used to remind us, periodically, that there were one hundred and sixty or eighty odd scales that had been found to be used in British Isles/or what ever you want to call it, folk music"

I would like very much to find some more info on this subject of the large number of scales - there are books available on the subject of different scales - I have some - but I would like to know more as my material covers nowhere near this number.

It should also be noted that 'cross tuning' or 'alternate tunings' exist for stringed instrument with limited numbers of strings (e.g., violins, guitars, etc) that assist in playing some of these scales. I am interested in this information too.

There are even more scales in 'non Western European' music, and even more in societies that include 'micro-tonalities' in their music.

Robin

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:32 PM

Maryrrf,

Just had a thought.

If you are a guitar player who wants to recognize a modal tune when you hear it, my question is "To what end?"

So that you can accompany it "correctly"?

Why do I ask?

In the old time music community in the states a guitar player's troubles are NOT over when she recognizes a tune as modal or is flat out told that it is modal. The old time music community is in the midst of the "chord wars." The fundamental question is what guitar chords are "best" for backing up modal tunes. The debate is intense, sometimes acrimonious, and far from over. It pits brother against brother and mother against daugher. Take warning.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:19 PM

Maryrrf,

A three stringed dulcimer tuned DAD is in mixolydian D. It is mixolydian because of the relationship of the pitches of the three strings.

A three stringed dulcimer tuned CGC is in mixolydian C. Different pitches, same relationship.

Three of the strings of a guitar in DADGAD match the mixolydian tuning of a dulcimer. But then the other three strings don't. Whether that guitar tuning is called "modal" is up the the guitar playing community. The extra strings complicate the discussion.

For what it is worth, a standard banjo tuning is ADADE. Although this banjo tuning shares pitches with a dulcimer tuned mixolydian D, old time banjo players would definitely NOT call this tuning modal.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 07:21 PM

To give further context to the discussion here, I've cross-pasted a comment fromBruceO in the "MODES" thread above:




Subject: RE: Modes?
From: Bruce O. - PM
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:45 AM
In The Mudcat Shop: Riley , Caledonia

I think musician should forget the theory and just play the notes. We get better music that way, as there's lots more time to practice.

"The earliest known copy of "The Campbells are coming" is that called "Hob or Nob" in Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances', IV, c 1744. (Out side of Scotland it retained this title, an is "Hob Nob" in 'Riley's Flute Melodies', New York, c 1817, with again the same key-mode) It has apparent keynote B with one sharp on the key signature, which would make it B phrygian, but it can also be coded as G major circular starting on the 1st of the scale. Those in Charles Gore's 'The Scottish Fiddle Music Index' are all coded G major, but there's no real way to decide one way or the other.

You will find the same two options for the Scottish "The White Cockade/The Ranting Highlandman" (1st tune in Aird's 'Airs', Jack Campin's website, which you can click on from mine). Here, however, the circular mode starts on the 3rd of the scale.

Circular tunes can be stinkers to figure out, because while the mode may seem a little bit odd, there is always one, and it does't seem all that odd. One case that shows very fast that this isn't the right way is when the last note is B and there are no sharps or flats on the key signature. You get a lot of locrians that way.

My favorite version of "Greensleeves" is not one of the 6 on my website, B168-73, that Simpson gave in 'The British Broadside Ballad and It Music'. I've given it now with an old song that I had forgotten to give previously. See "As I walked by myself" in Scarce Songs 2 for song and tune. www.erols.com/olsonw

"Greensleeves" is not a normal mode. It has an 8 note scale and there's no standard terminology for it. It's about as close as one can get to being half way between major and minor, or, another way of saying the same thing within narrower limits, is that it's half way between mixolydian and dorian. As for notation, it's simplest when you given it as dorian with a variable 7th. Those who want to believe that ancient Greeks had modes can if they like. Let's see them come up with real evidence. I spell the names in lower case, because as far as I'm concerned, they're just (faulty) names that have been generally accepted because of wide useage.

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 06:31 PM

GUEST--Strictly speaking, music *is* a composer intention--

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:57 PM

You may as well ask if a piano is 'modal'

Subject: RE: Modal Music - How to tell?
From: Ed.
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 05:55 PM

So why are you asking if it is 'modal'?