BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 10:23 PM

Read this and then tell me why the Palestinians should trust the government of Israel. It's from the Israeli Jewish human rights organization, Gush Shalom.

http://www.spectacle.org/0601/israel.html

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement was going to result in their independence and a sovereign state for them)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said."
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1995/100595.htm

During the Israeli incursions into the occupied territories in spring of 2002, the IDF destroyed most of the PA civil infrastructure, including police and other security forces. So I think it's reasonable to suppose that Arafat doesn't have the physical means to do what you think he ought to do, especially considering the fact that he is being completely imprisoned within his compound by the IDF. But personally, I don't see why he should be expected to provide security for an occupying force. The government of Israel should remove all of its forces from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and defend its border, the Green Line, from the Israeli side.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 09:39 PM

But Arafat is the acknowledged leader as President of the Palestinian Authority. Are you saying that he has no control over what his own people do ? Plus, you have not as yet addressed the point about him saying one thing in English and the very opposite in Arabic ?
                                                SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 07:58 PM

Rabbi Sol, the intifada was not Arafat's decision. It was a spontaneous outburst of emotion from Palestinians after a gathering of them had been fired upon, and several of them killed, by Israeli soldiers as they (the Palestinians) were demonstrating, armed only with rocks.

Personally, I don't favor the use of collective punishment as a way of accomplishing a political agenda. And if all of the Palestinians are to be punished for whatever Arafat does or does not do, that is collective punishment. Collective punishment is against the Geneva convention, and it also has been one of the favorite tactics of people you and I would probably both regard as not being ones we would want to emulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 07:48 PM

Carol. I did not imply that there is anything wrong with a trailer. I kind of like that type of life myself. On vacations I used to rent an RV and travel around the country to various Bluegrass Festivals. It is a welcome change from suburban Rockland County, NY where I live.
On many of these trips I used to go out for as much as 18 days around the south, and met some very interesting people. Now, lest us get back to the Middle East. I like to judge people not by what they say but by whether those words are backed up by actions. How many times has Arafat pledged to halt terrorism. Has he done so ? No. In the last Camp David summit, he was offered more than ever before in terms of territorial concessions and his own sovereign state. What was his answer ? The intefada. Yes, when ever there is a suicide bombing attack, he was the first to condemm it, in English, to the Western press. However, the very same day, in Arabic, he praises that attack to an Arab audience as an example of the Jihad he so fervently believes in. Can you show me any positive examples of promises kept & not broken ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:56 PM

We would be honored to have you as our guest, Rabbi Sol.

And naturally, whatever the Palestinians say, they are always to be believed.
          "The Gospel According To CarolC"

First of all, this looks like invective to me. And it also looks like you're implying that Palestinians are not to be trusted just because they are Palestinians. But I did ask if you meant to sound the way you were coming across to me, because it's not always possible to tell from just seeing someone's words in print like this.

Now, on the subject of our trailer. We like it. It's the kind of lifestyle we want right now. We're happy here for now, and when we're ready to go someplace else, we will.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:41 PM

Lyrics: Jack was every inch a sailor
         Lived with Carol in a trailer

By the way Jack, the name is Sol (short for Solomon) not Saul. Now, both of you, show me where I am the bigot. And try using logic for a change instead of invective. And another question. As a fellow folk music enthusiast, would I be welcome in your trailer should I decide to pay you a visit on my next swing through Dixie ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM

Thank you CarolC.

I'm happy for me, also. Actually am quite thankful.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:34 PM

I'm happy for you, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:33 PM

I wouldn't trade my wonderful suburban cul-de-sac for anything, CarolC. I've worked hard to get it. It wasn't handed to me. A full 2 stories, 4 bedrooms and full basement. Just put in a brand new central A/C unit. a beautiful garden of a back yard, too. Think I'll grill up some steaks tonight on the deck. Like heaven on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:27 PM

Yes, GUEST, Yes Sir, I Are A Fat Ham Ass, and Martin Gibson. You are both showing all of us what cultured and open minded people you are.

You are both a credit to your respective suburban cul-de-sacs.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:13 PM

I am sure they are glad to be so well liked by the fat rump of a pig who writes like a dildo.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,Yes Sir, I Are A Fat Ham Ass
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:03 PM

Trailer park people are my favorouter people and CarolC and Jack The Sailor got no bigotry in there trailer park trailer. There behind all of the people that are discriminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: mg
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

We needn't equate people who have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians with people who automatically support the terrorist activities of some of them. Speaking for myself, I would shoot dead a terrorist of any persuasion, if there was not time enough for other alternatives and lives were in immediate danger. If I were the UN in charge of some of the schools there I would be checking out exactly what is taught. If I were passing out American dollars to Israel I would make sure we knew what the borders were we are paying to defend. There would be no, zero, settlements in certain areas. They would be set aside for farmers, particularly those who could farm with little water. There would be a transportation system to get farmers back and forth to their farms and through whatever checkpoints are necessary. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

Ah... Thees one is a nausty little buggar, yeh see 'em hiding behind that anonimity bush and sniping in his cowardly way at those who walk by. Not even a croc would be that low down and dirty. That's why I'm changing the name of the show. This fall on the Mudcat channel, Irv Steewin the Troll Hunter.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:08 PM

Only when you come to visit, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:00 AM

Certainly is in your trailer Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

Certainly Bigotry is alive and well in your home Mr. Saul.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:54 PM

What I support is a Palestinian society that renounces terrorism and does not allow its citizens to perpetrate terrorism. As soon as that becomes a reality, there will be no wall.

--GUEST,C-watch

How about Israel tears down the wall when Muslim extremists worldwide agree to stop teaching their kids to hate and kill Jews.

--GUEST,13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

These are both forms of collective punishment. Are you both saying that you support collective punishment?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

How about Israel tears down the wall when Muslim extremists worldwide agree to stop teaching their kids to hate and kill Jews.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when China ends its illegal occupation of Tibet.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Saudi Arabia tears down its wall protecting itself from marauders from other gulf states.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Morocco tears down its 1,000-mile long security barrier across the heart of the territory of Western Sahara, which it used to take control of the best two-thirds of the territory for Morocco.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the wall when Spain tears down its fence it built in Ceuta, on the border with Morocco, in order to keep illegal workers out of Spain.

If that's too hard, then how about this: Israel tears down the fence when Israel knows it can expect unbiased treatment from Europe, the UN and all those others who condemn Israel for doing what every nation does: protect the lives of its citizens from terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:56 PM

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Just as I have not said that I support the wall, I have also not said that I don't support it. What I most definitely support is the elimination of terrorism, which would negate any need for the wall.

I started this thread because it was interesting to hear the perspective of an Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism and how being the victim of random Palestinian terrorism changed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:49 PM

If you don't support the building of the wall, why the hell did you start this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:47 PM

So, back to the subject of the wall. You, GUEST,C-watch, and Rabbi Sol, are both saying that the wall is needed because it is effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel. But then you are saying that the wall can't be put along the Green Line because the Palestinians don't want it there. But you are trying to justify putting it somewhere that the Palestinians like even less than along the Green Line. And then you are saying this is necessary because the wall won't be effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel.

You're putting words in my mouth. I've never said the wall is needed or that I support it. In point of fact, YOU are the one who's said she supports a wall between the Israelis and Palestinians.

What I've said is that, the 1949 Green Line is not necessarily the realistic border between Israel and a future Palestinian state. Something that many progressive Israelis and Palestinians agree with.

YOU are the one who has said she supports a wall between the Palestinians and Israelis.

What I support is a Palestinian society that renounces terrorism and does not allow its citizens to perpetrate terrorism. As soon as that becomes a reality, there will be no wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:46 PM

Martin, you hear what you want to hear, and you easily try to put words in my mouth. It's quite distorted, along with the rest of your very bigoted way of thinking.

At least I asked the Rabbi if that was how he intended to sound. You have never done me that courtesy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:35 PM

CarolC

You hear what you want to hear and you easily tried to put words in Rabbi-Sol's mouth. It's quite distorted, along with your terrorist sympathy way of thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:33 PM

So, back to the subject of the wall. You, GUEST,C-watch, and Rabbi Sol, are both saying that the wall is needed because it is effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel. But then you are saying that the wall can't be put along the Green Line because the Palestinians don't want it there. But you are trying to justify putting it somewhere that the Palestinians like even less than along the Green Line. And then you are saying this is necessary because the wall won't be effective in keeping the terrorists out of Israel.

This is nonesense. There is no good justificication for putting the wall anywhere other than along the Green Line, except for the purpose of confiscating more land from the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:27 PM

Rabbi Sol, the words I used, "nigger lover", were used against my mother while she was fighting for civil rights for African Americans here in the US while I was a child growing up in Rhode Island. And what my mother taught me during that time in her life, and what my mother's civil rights worker friends (both Black and White) taught me, is to recognize racism wherever it occurs, any by whomever it is practiced. The way you talk about Palestinians sounds incredibly racist to me, and that is why I asked it it is your intention to sound that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:10 PM

CarolC. I see that racism is still alive and well in the trailer parks of the great state of Alabama, even though George Wallace has long gone to his eternal resting place where the climate is very warm.
The words that you just used have no place on this forum, or in my vocabulary. Now, in getting back to the issue at hand, once the Palestinians get their independent sovereign state in Gaza and the West Bank, they are going to want the territory between them as well. They are going to want freedom of mobility between the 2 sections of their nation. The barrier, even if it is along the green line, is going to restrict and impede that mobility. Therefore, I do not believe that they are ever going to be in favor of it. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM

If you think the PLO Charter is scary, you should read the Hamas Charter. For example:

Article Fifteen: The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

Article Thirty-Two: World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

The complete Hamas Charter is on this page.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM

Thanks for posting the link to the PLO charter. It's in telling contrast to Carol's lies about what the Palestinians really want.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:37 PM

GUEST,C-watch, if Israel builds the wall in good faith along the Green Line (everybody knows it's just a "temporary" wall anyway, right?), then it really wouldn't matter whether or not the Palestinians wanted it there, would it? But if Israel did build such a wall, and then removed its troops from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians get on with the process of building their country, it would make a lot of Palestinians very, very happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:32 PM

Rabbi Sol, the way you use terms like "Palestinians" and "Palestinian sympathizers" (as you did on another thread recently), it comes across sounding a lot like "niggers" and "nigger lovers". Is that how you intend it to sound?

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:29 PM

No, CarolC, it's not bullshit.

Read the PLO Charter, still the supreme policy document of the Palestinian Authority.

For example:

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

There's a lot more to the Charter. You should read it.

Here's a link to it at the Yale University Law School site.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

And naturally, whatever the Palestinians say, they are always to be believed.
          "The Gospel According To CarolC"

                                                   SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

Oh bullshit, GUEST,C-watch. The Palestinians will accept the wall if it's built along the Green Line. They have said so themseves. They welcome a wall built along the Green Line, to keep the IDF the hell out.

Any shifting of the border between Israel and the West Bank that varies from the Green Line should be negotiated. Israel is unilaterally making that determination by building the wall wherever it wants. That's still theft.

And this is what the international community has condemned.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:12 PM

I support the building of a wall separating Israel from the West Bank along the green line. Most of the world would not argue with this idea. Build the wall. But build it on land that is not in dispute (along the Green Line). Anything else is thinly disguised theft.

One of the problems with your solution is that the Palestinians themselves do not accept the Green Line. The map of "Palestine" that is taught to Palestinian school childred includes Tel Aviv, Haifa and Be'er Sheva. They are taught that all of Israel proper is occupied territory.

Furthermore, the Green Line is an artificial construct based on where the fighting stopped in 1949. What makes more sense to me, are the land swaps that the Israeli left, and some Palestinians, embrace. These swaps would mean that the border would be redrawn so that several Israeli settlements in the border area would become part of Israel and abd several Arab villages that are within Israel, but near the border, could become part of a Palestinian state. Under that plan, Israeli settlements that are deeper in Palestinian territory would be abandoned or fall under Palestinian soverignty and Arab-Israeli villages not very close to the border would remain part of Israel.

In any case, thanks to the recent ruling by Israel's Supreme Court, the wall will be rerouted where it was shown to infringe on legitimate Palestinian territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

I support the building of a wall separating Israel from the West Bank along the green line. Most of the world would not argue with this idea. Build the wall. But build it on land that is not in dispute (along the Green Line). Anything else is thinly disguised theft.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:27 PM

As I once mentioned before on another thread, the Palestinian homicide bombers, do not pull out a guitar and start singing "Which Side Are You On", before detonating their lethal explosives. They just want to kill anyone and everyone to get their point across. Bin Laden did not care how many Muslims were in the World Trade Center either. Somehow, when you are a Jew and try to defend yourself, you are judged by different standards than the rest of humanity. And you think that Arafat really cares if a few of his own people are killed as well ? If he has to sacrafice 100 Arabs to kill one Jew, he figures he is still ahead of the game. Did you notice how the incidents of bombings in Israel has decreased rapidly since Israel has started targeting and taking out the leadership of the Terrorist Hamas & Al Aksa brigades ? It is as if the Intefada has come to a screeching halt. I think that by now, people are starting to get the message that we Jews no longer walk to the gas chambers like lambs to the slaughter. We have learned how to fight back. To turn the other cheek is a Christian concept, not a Jewish one. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:49 PM

Sammi has just been blown up, narrowly ecaping death and witnessing dimemberment.
A lack of rational reasoning is understandable Wolfgang.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:07 AM

"Maybe Sammi should move to Hull and drive a taxi." Don't be daft lad - 'e knaws where 'es best off, th' knaws.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:33 AM

Reading the links posted here I get angry for at least two reasons:

(1) the attack added deadly injury to the insult of last Friday's ruling at The Hague that the fence is illegal and must be dismantled. (from the article of the last link).

A journalist aiming at accuracy would have told that the The Hague ruling did not declare the fence illegal, but only where it is positioned. That's a big difference and it could be explained to the readers.

(2) I wonder about Masrawa. He could know it all along that the Palestinian bombing campaign was indiscriminate and that it killed Jews, Arabs, foreign visitors, whoever was near to the explosion. Masrawa is far from being the first Arab victim of Palestinian bombs (not counting the suicide carriers). Why someone has to feel injury himself before objecting to indiscriminate bombing I can not understand.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM

Maybe Sammi should move to Hull and drive a taxi.

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 03:43 PM

From another article:

"I am an Arab from Jaffa, a leftist, and I was opposed to the separation fence until today," said Masrawa, who survived the attack at a downtown bus stop with mild injuries. "But the terrorists do not distinguish between Jews and Arabs. After what I saw today, I hope to set up a lobby in favor of the fence."

link

Subject: RE: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 12:02 PM

Did anyone in the international community condemn the security wall around the Gaza strip as it was being built?

Subject: BS: Arab victim of Palestinian terrorism
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:40 AM

One of the 20 injured victims (one young woman was murdered) in yesterday's terrorist bombing in Tel Aviv was Sammi Masrawa, an Israeli Arab who headed a committee trying to bring Israelis and Palestinians together.

Now, as a victim of Palestinian terrorism, Masrawa wants to keep them apart.

Sammi Masrawa's story is at this link.

Arafat's Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade has claimed credit for the terrorist act.

That sory is at this link.