BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM

"Brutus": Anti-Federalist Papers, #23 (extract):

The European governments are almost all of them framed, and administered with a view to arms, and war, as that in which their chief glory consists. They mistake the end of government. It was designed to save men's lives, not to destroy them. We ought to furnish the world with an example of a great people, who in their civil institutions hold chiefly in view, the attainment of virtue, and happiness among ourselves. Let the monarchs in Europe share among them the glory of depopulating countries, and butchering thousands of their innocent citizens, to revenge private quarrels, or to punish an insult offered to a wife, a mistress, or a favorite. I envy them not the honor, and I pray heaven this country may never be ambitious of it. The czar Peter the great, acquired great glory by his arms; but all this was nothing, compared with the true glory which he obtained, by civilizing his rude and barbarous subjects, diffusing among them knowledge, and establishing and cultivating the arts of life. By the former he desolated countries, and drenched the earth with human blood; by the latter he softened the ferocious nature of his people, and pointed them to the means of human happiness. The most important end of government then, is the proper direction of its internal police, and economy; this is the province of the state governments, and it is evident, and is indeed admitted, that these ought to be under their control. Is it not then preposterous, and in the highest degree absurd, when the state governments are vested with powers so essential to the peace and good order of society, to take from them the means of their own preservation?

Both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers are on-line....

Switzerland was used as a comparison and example for the United States as early as the Constitutional Convention.

Note, took, that the right to keep and bear arms is guarenteed in the US Constitution to all members of the militia, regardless of their politics or religion. In the English Constitution of 1689, the right to arms is granted solely to "Protestants." (That, too, is online.) The US 'militia' was, effectively, all male citizens between 16 and 60 years of age, although it varied from state to state.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:58 PM

Rapaire - just for the sake of argument. You are dead right. Two hundred or, three hundred or one hundred years ago - they got it right for then when they made their laws and statutes.

Sometimes though, history teaches us nothing except that things have changed.

Surely its all those people who in desperation picked up a gun because one was so readily available and did something awful - last year, this year and what they'll get up to next year you've got to turn your attention to.....

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 04:59 PM

Weelittledrummer, isn't that what I've been trying to say? But laws won't do it. Confiscation won't do it. Buy-back programs won't do it.

It's going to take a cultural change, a fundamental change in the American way of thinking. It's going to take a realization that picking up the gun almost always causes more problems than it solves. It's going to take an understanding that there are no simple, magic-bullet, solutions -- that problems are complex and complicated, just like people are.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:10 PM

>It's going to take a cultural change, a fundamental change in the American way of thinking.

You can't legislate a change in the way that Americans think-but never mind that----so how can you even decide which "cultural changes" to make when people are of such divergent views on the cause of the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

I think that there are some areas of agreement, places where even the NRA agrees. For instance, glorifying firearms and violence in movies, TV, and video games. Let's start there.

Here's the NRA on gun control legislation.

Another area is teaching safety -- including, but not limited to, firearms safety -- to kids. Young kids can be taught "don't touch, get an adult" and older ones more sophisticated practices (e.g., keep people away, especially other kids; get a cop or adult). One of the biggest and best things that could be taught is that a gun is NOT a toy (but see my thing about movies!). But when I say "safety" I mean all areas of safety, not just guns. Kids are hurt in way too many ways, from falls to burns to car accidents, and many of these injuries could be prevented.

There's two ways we could start. And I KNOW that even the NRA is in favor of teaching firearms safety -- their "Eddie Eagle" program has received awards.

No, before you say it, I'm NOT and never have been a member of the National Rifle Association. I am a member of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA), which is another thing ENTIRELY, believe me! (Where else could you see a guy dressed in the full blue-and-buff of an officer of the American Revolution walking amongst tipis and 18th C. tents, a commercial-sized videocamera on his shoulder and a sword in a hanger at his side?)

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:20 PM

Well, I know this is gonna come as a big surprise but I was once a memebr of the NRA but that was in their pre-political days when gun safety and shooting clubs was about all they were interested in...

Now a days, you join and yer gonna get the entire right winged political agneda, from affirmative action to homosexuals to the invasion of Iraq to, to... Name it and if its part of the gun toting Christain Right that's what yer joining...

Too bad. Now parents won't let their kids anywhere near these demogogues and so the kids miss out on what I got from the NRA, which is a lot...

Talkin' about gun safety, I wonder who is teachin' it to the kids who are packin' heat and shooting each other every day of the year in the US?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:53 AM

Yeah, Bobert, I was once a member. I resigned in disgust over the "cop killer" bullet issue. Between that and the assumption on my politics based on gun ownership, when exactly the opposite is true. My politics are now, and always have been, left of center on virtually every issue with the exception of gun control.

One of the things I hate is when the parties to this debate use single incidents to try and prove the predicate. We have an example going on right now, in North Carolina I believe. A neighbor caught a 3 year old on tape playing with a long barrelled revolver. His parents were away from the weapons checking a target. They were also drinking beer. While I don't know all the details, from what I have seen these parents are idiots. If all bears out as it appears, it is my opinion that both need to be in jail. Further, it should be a long time, with a very heavy burden of proof, before they should get their children back.

But, it is one incident, and the likely fact is that these folks probably have many other unsafe conditions around. About all these types of incidents prove is that some folks are not fit parents.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:03 AM

Well, back when the NRA was shooting clubs and the Olympics and such I didn't have the money for dues. Now...well, I disagree with their politics.

That doesn't negate the value of their safety programs or the other good that they do. If the NMLRA ever got to the same point, I'd quit. As it is, during the National Matches in Friendship (yeah, really, it's a town in Indiana NE of Madison, just west of Farmer's Retreat) you are not permitted to even show a modern cartridge firearm to anyone (unless you're a cop, and the State Police do come 'round, at least for a cuppa).

I've been to both the Spring and Fall matches in Friendship several times. Firelocks abound: Lancasters, Hawkens, fusil de chausse, fowlers, chunk guns, snaphaunces, Jaegers, and more. You might see a demonstration of a matchlock or a wheellock -- demonstration only, especially of the matchlock, as everyone is plumb PARANOID about burning embers around loose gunpowder (just can't IMAGINE why...).

You can buy a flintlock at Friendship. Or a tomahawk. Or a capote. Or a pair of knee breeches. Or a mainspring vise. Or an L&R Siler lock in Durs Egg style. Or a Southern-style gunstock in flame-grain walnut. Or a HBC "point" blanket. If you have enough (modern, USD) money you can drive away looking like the early 18th Century fashion pate you are.

If you get a chance, visit Friendship. Take earplugs, 'cause the primary reason for it is a shootin' match, but you won't need them away from the firing line. But go, if you get the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST,francis s
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:14 AM

help! im a canadian living in australia doing research. i understand that there are places in the usa where people can carry sidearms/unconcealed weapons. anybody know where these places are and what the crime stats are like in these places? thank you so much.

please email me at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:21 AM

PHYSICIANS & GUNS

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171
(US Dept. of Health Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous
than gun owners.

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:11 AM

Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor.

Actually the state of health care in the U.S. is such that millions DON'T have a doctor.