BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public

Subject: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:24 PM

I'm not too sure what is going on over in Virgina but within the last week or two more and more white guys have taken to wearing sidearms in public (including bars). A couple of bars have had to ban the wearing of guns because it upsets their customers...

Now, I'm not sure what I am missing here but would someone explain to me why a guy thinks he has to strap on a holster and gun in a highly populated, well lit and policed area to feel safe having a couple beers in suburban Virginia bar?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:37 PM

Got me.

Every state I know of bars you from carrying firearms -- concealed or otherwise -- into places where alcoholic beverages are sold.

Hmmmmmmm...what sort of bars were these? 'Cause if they are the kind where you might NEED a gun, smart folks wouldn't go into them anyway.

As my brother once said, "If I need a gun where I am I'm probably in the wrong place."

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:47 PM

These are like suburban, upper middle class, Northern Virgina resturanats that serve alcohol, Rap... Not really even bars... But Virginia says you can strap on a Colt 45 and gfo whefreever you want as long as it isn't concealed???

Like I said. I don't know????

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM

Whey probably carry 'em to warn musicians to stay onm-key

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:51 PM

LOL, Sam.

So much fir my old expression "We tune because we care"...

Bring on "We tune 'casue we don't wanta get shot!"

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:30 PM

Da Statutes of da Commonwealth of Virginny sayeth:

"J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit."

and

"§ 18.2-287.4. Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded firearm on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public (i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or (ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid permit to carry such firearm or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.

The exemptions set forth in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section."

There's also this (be careful, Bobert!):

"§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor."

Sure might make the preacher move the ol' sermon right along if being "bored to death" was a "good and sufficient reason."

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:35 PM

Sounds like a six-shot revolver in a bar is pwerfectly legal if not concealed, then, if I read 287.4 rightly. 'Zat right? Are we backsliding, boys and girls? Has the day of the Virginian returned?

Dear Gawd, what have we wrought??


A

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:33 AM

We have wrought iron!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:16 AM

The Virginian always carried a gun when I used to watch him on TV. Don't remember him going into bars though...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: el ted
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:57 AM

I wish I could have a bloody gun in sunny Hull!!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 05:30 AM

In other countries you'd have to wear arms to be allowed to vote: In one part of Switserland only armed persons were allowed to enter the place where the yearly voting was held. No arm, no entry. Women, by the way were not allowed to wear arms. So they couldn't vote, of course only for that reason.

There are funny places with funny customs over the world. Perhaps those Virginians had read about Switserland and only want to show they are true democrats (not: Democrats)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:05 AM

One may legally wear a hand gun in plain sight here in the streets, but I doubt he would be welcome in a bar.
I wonder why the murder rate in Maine is so low?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: mooman
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM

"...is that a gun you're wearing or aren't you pleased to see me..."

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Last night I returned from a few days trip at midnite, and checked the threads really quickly, and honestly   I thought this thread title was Virgins wearing guns. hmmmmmmmmmmm, not a bad idea though, do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:32 AM

It's been said that "an armed society is a polite society." But I think that it's a Good Thing to prevent folks in bars from wearing shootin' irons -- and so did a lot of towns in the "Old West."

Rule 10: Never Mix Alcohol And Gunpowder. Drilled into me all too close to a a half century ago when I first took up shooting. (My brother used to add to that "...because then your gunpowder's all wet and won't fire.")   At 12 we weren't drinking much alcohol, but we knew what it meant and why the rule was there, and even today we don't take any alcohol until the guns are cleaned and LOCKED away.

Maybe they're afraid of getting short-drinked by the bartender? Maybe they're advertising their need to display big guns because Nature provided them with ones that are so small?

And yes, I have a concealed carry permit. Not that I use it....

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 09:36 AM

Kendall,

Why such a low murder rate in Maine? Nobody lives there to shoot... The Wes Ginny Slide Rule cut right to the chase in that one but I woulda figured out wid a little more time...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:57 AM

Nobody lives there to shoot.

So, Bobert, you're saying that folks down in Maine ain't worth the powder ta blow 'em away?   8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:04 PM

Do they wear anything else?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:03 PM

Good question, McGrath! Maybe they kin be arrested for indecent exposure. After all, their guns are hangin' out in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM

Thanks to Ned Buntline and others, the old west got a bad rep. Actually, there were very few gunfights in Dodge.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM

Bobert: mebbe word got out that you were dropping in for a drink! :>) Any chance those gun toters were Republicans?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

I don't go to YUPPIE bars, Dougie... Republicans? Nah! Jus' true believin' rednecks... BTW, haven't you heard. Republicans are a dieing breed... Plenty of folks who might think their Republicans, though, who couldn't care less how intrusive the federal governemnt is or how much it spends that it doesn't have. Republicans don't like taht kinda stuff...

Ahhhh, no Rap... You trying to get me in trouble with Kendall? I don't need no help in that department, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 03:49 AM

let's hope it doesn't catch on....become a fashion accesory, like mobile phones did. you'll have to get guns for all your kids. people will say I keep forgetting mine. top up bullets will be on sale everywhere. you'll stay awake wondering should I take out a contract, or shoot as I go.....they'll keep going off in cinemas, and in your pocket....then someone will invent one that takes pictures and you'll have update.....

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:56 AM

Hey, designer bullets! Yeah!

It goes along with my youngest brother's idea to use various colored flints in flintlocks. He thinks colors like hot pink or a pale mauve might attract a whole new crowd to muzzle loader shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

How dare those Virginians exercise their 2nd amendment rights! Next thing you know, they will want freedom of religion, or the right to vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:11 AM

Or to pay income tax!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:14 AM

actually, income tax is NOT in the Bill of Rights...

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

Hey, Lets hope it *DOES* catch on & they kill each other off.

World could stand a few less morons- of whatever ploitical persuasion- in it.

Just hafta watch out for the collateral damage- but U.S. folks seem comfortable with that eventuality in other parts of the world.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:47 AM

Here is an article about it from the website of "The Pentagram" the newspaper at Ft. Meyers--the original article is in the Washington Post, July 15-




http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/9_29/commentary/30198-1.html

No need to check guns in Virginia

by Dennis Ryan
Pentagram staff writer

"Virginia is for Lovers" the old tourist ads for the state used to read. The Old Dominion, The Mother of Presidents and the Mother of States are all well-known monikers for the 36th largest state in the nation.

There is soon to be a new appellation for this old and historic place, "Guns are Us." The Washington Post reported yesterday some gun owners in Virginia were beginning to exercise a legal right in public.

The right is to openly wear a firearm in public, and is guaranteed by a new law which went into effect July 1. Virginia prohibits any locality from enacting their own laws regulating the ownership, carrying, storage or purchase of guns, except in the workplace.

Ssiiiiggghhhhhhhhh. That's bosses exhaling across the commonwealth.

Dangerous venues such as local restaurants and coffee shops are now the scene of gun enthusiasts quietly sipping their low fat latte with a fully loaded pistol.

Now, certainly people's rights to keep and bear arms are rightfully guaranteed by the constitution and now it is legal in the "Quick Draw McGraw State." The birthplace of Jefferson, Washington, Monroe, Madison, Lee and Jackson is now a place, which encourages one to pack a piece in public.

It may be legal, but it is insane. Is it really wise for people to tote a firearm around? It is necessary to have a permit to carry a concealed firearm in Virginia and most other states.

This law obviates the need for a permit as long as one straps the weapon on and wears it openly. If a person works in a convenience store late at night in a dangerous area, perhaps the sight of a holstered weapon might deter malefactors.

Do we want people openly carrying guns just because they can and want to stick their noses at people who believe otherwise? If workplaces are the only locales where holstered guns are limited, does it mean one can wear a gun to church?

Hallelujah, pass the Lord and praise the ammunition. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil -- for thou Smith and Wesson is with me.

How about completing an ensemble with a Colt 45 for a trip to the bank? Tellers would love to have customers walking in armed to the teeth.

Bar rooms would be excellent places to display one's right to carry and to be carried out on a stretcher.

Guns are perfectly fine tools for assigned purposes. They have a long and valued history in this country. But they are also responsible for thousands of deaths every year. The NRA and other sportsmen's groups stress responsible gun ownership. It is completely irresponsible to wear a gun simply because one can. In fact, never was there a more perfect advertisement for gun control than the sight of a group of nattering Neanderthals with small members, infinitesimal IQs and large bore hand guns walking into a quiet suburban restaurant. Let's not allow Virginia to be known as the land of the quick draw, the slow wit and the dead.

Guns are for self-defense, hunting, the disposal of rodents and other practical uses. They should not be used by showoffs to make an ill-considered political point.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Under the SRS Rule, no quotes on gun control from the Washington Post, an openly anti-gun source, may be used in any arguement on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM

Oh, BB, stop with the make-wrong, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:32 AM

I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Idaho. I have had one for Kentucy and for Indiana in the past.

Now, Idaho is part of the Old West. Henry Plummer, vigilantes, fights with the Indians, stage coach and train robberies, Butch Cassidy and other such folks -- they're all part of the history of the area.

I don't pack a gun, except to go to a shooting range where I shoot paper targets (bull's-eye type). I know other people who have similar permits; they don't carry a gun either. We could, but we don't.

The only guns I've seen carried on the streets or in various businesses are those carried by the cops.

This is also true of my experiences in Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington, Colorado and Nevada. I'm not saying that there aren't those who do, I'm only stating my own observations.

So far, they tell me that the "Wild West" is in Arlington, Williamsburg, Richmond, and other such places.

Yippee-ki-yo, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:28 PM

Skeptical, bearded bruce? Here is a piece from the Washinton Times, the Beltway's main conservative newspaper, owned by Sun Myong Moon himself--you gotta trust him!--


Gun rights advocates defend open-carry law

By Christina Bellantoni
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Virginians who exercise their right to carry guns in public have been criticized — even ridiculed — in recent days by critics on the both sides of the Potomac. But many gun rights advocates, state lawmakers and residents point out that it's much safer to shop, drive or walk along a street in Virginia than in the District, where handguns are banned and police just declared a "crime emergency."
    "Criminals don't want to come up against somebody who is willing to protect themselves," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defense League.

    Mr. Van Cleave said Virginia also is made safer by people who carry concealed weapons.
    "The idea there is the criminals don't know who's carrying a gun," he said. "They don't wish to mess with people much because they don't know who will be able to defend themselves."
    Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident and a permit holder, said being able to carry a weapon openly gives people a sense of security.
    "It's an insurance policy," he said. "I'm not a statistician, but it makes people feel more safe when they have the right to carry."
    Virginia Delegate Mark L. Cole agreed that streets are safer when law-abiding citizens can arm themselves.
    "Citizens have an inherent right to be able to defend themselves," the Fredericksburg Republican said. "You can't always have a policeman on every street corner to take care of you. Whenever you have a bunch of gun-control laws that prohibit people from carrying, the ones with the guns are the criminals. You wouldn't be able to defend yourself."
    It's always been legal for permit-holders to carry handguns openly in Virginia, but recent sightings of gun owners displaying holstered handguns has some people spooked. More than 20 states have open-carry laws; it is illegal to carry handguns openly in Maryland and the District.
    Virginia state Sen. Janet D. Howell says she was surprised when a D.C. resident sent her an e-mail saying he won't be crossing the Potomac into Virginia anymore because of the open-carry law.
    "He feels that the District of Columbia is a safer place to be," said Mrs. Howell, Fairfax County Democrat.
    Crime statistics, however, indicate that Fairfax County is much safer than the District, even though the city has a fraction of the population of its southern neighbor.
    From January through April this year, Fairfax County had four homicides while the District had 64. There were 189 robberies in Fairfax County compared with 1,214 robberies in the District, and 18 rapes compared with 100 rapes in the city.
    D.C. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey declared a "crime emergency" yesterday, allowing him to temporarily suspend staffing guidelines negotiated with the police officers union.
    An NBC 4 online poll showed that 84 percent of the 4,880 people surveyed support the right of Virginia gun owners to carry in public.
    Still, Mrs. Howell said she agrees with those who say guns in holsters pose a serious threat. She tried unsuccessfully to persuade the state legislature to ban guns from establishments that serve alcohol and vowed to try again next year.
    "It's pretty obvious that guns and alcohol don't mix," she said. "Having guns in places that sell alcohol puts the public and employees at risk. People don't necessarily think straight when they are drinking."
    Mr. Cole sponsored the legislation that created uniform open-carry laws throughout the state, which took effect July 1. The new law supercedes ordinances in cities such as Alexandria and Falls Church, where it had been illegal to carry openly within city limits.
    But some police officers aren't aware of the law.
    One Fairfax County officer recently confiscated guns worn by two persons at a Starbucks. When he realized his mistake, he called the men the next day and returned their guns and did not file charges, said Fairfax County Police Sgt. Richard Perez.
    "Residents see people openly carrying handguns and call us, and we respond," Sgt. Perez said. "We use instances like that to continue to educate all our officers on what the laws are."
    Mr. Van Cleave said there is nothing his group can do to ease the fears of a "small" group of people afraid of guns.
    "We're not seeing panic in the streets in Northern Virginia," he said.
    Mr. Van Cleave said his group does not encourage or discourage people to carry openly. However, his e-mail newsletter detailed the Starbucks incident.
    "We alerted our members to that and people were pretty upset," Mr. Van Cleave said. "People decided it was time maybe more people did open carry to ensure our rights and make sure the harassment stops."
    

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM

MTed,

I WORK in VA... I know it is happening- it is the tone of the Post I dislike. Seems like next they will start on those evil moslems practicing their religion, or the fact that other papers are allowed to publish... I object to the attack on the bill of rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM

Every time this issue comes up, law abiding gun owners ask questions and are subjected to ridicule, or patronizing comments. Just answer the questions, folks. Such as "How come the States that have shall issue concealed weapons permits have lower violent crime rates, while places like DC (with it's strict gun laws) have higher rates of violent crime?".

How is it that taking away guns from folks that own them and use them responsibly, will lower crime from those that gain them and own them illegally?

Even the slant of the article above uses these hysteria laden arguments. They give the same weight to one citizen who says she won't cross into VA again as they do the comments of a number of legislators and advocates who indicate the State is safer.

In my home State of Michigan a "shall issue" permit system was installed several years ago over the ranting of those saying there would be a bloodbath. To date the bloodbath hasn't occurred nor have there been any shootouts that I am aware of involving legal gunowners.

I don't expect folks that haven't been raised here to understand all this, but the simple fact is that allowing law abiding citizens to carry a weapon lowers the violent crime rate.

What about accidental shootings where a gun is not properly secured? First off, statistically it rarely happens. But this is one gun owner who believes that the penalties should be very harsh and rigidly enforced. If you are going to own and carry a deadly weapon, it is your responsibility to be properly trained, well practiced, and ultimately responsible for the security of that weapon. There should be no leniency for lax security violations.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:28 PM

Everyone knows my stand on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

You expressed my thought exactly, Mick.

Each right carries with it responsibilities. If you are going to "keep and bear arms" you have the responsibilities to know how to use them safely, to store them securely, when NOT to use them or carry them, and others.

The right of a free press carries with it the right to publish facts and not innuendo and lies. The right to peaceably assemble, the right to redress from the government, the right not to incriminate yourself -- all of them have concomittment responsibilities.

Right now, my firearms are locked inside a secure metal cabinet. In addition, trigger locks are used. What ammunition I have is kept in a seperate, locked, container. And there are no children in our house -- only two semi-mature adults.

According to the National Safety Council, your odds of dying in 2001 (last year for which statistics are available) are 1 in

355,479 for firearms discharge,
388,411 for a fall from a bed or chair,
310,560 for an air or space accident,
19,075 for the occupant of a car,
76,249 for the occupant of a pickup or van,
46,960 if you're a pedestrian,
359,967 for a pedalcyclist,
93,719 for a motorcyclist,
270,487 for drowning in "natural water",
106,657 for burning to death in a structure fire, and
98,004 for poisoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM

Wolfgang: "In other countries you'd have to wear arms to be allowed to vote"

Wolfgang, I'm curious. What countries are those?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:23 PM

I'd like to have a time machine to go back and ask the framers of the Bill of Rights exactly what they had in mind...and then explain to them what we were up against 250 years later, and ask them if they might like to phrase it all a bit differently.

It is obvious that **IF** all people who can carry guns do so reasonably and responsibly, with proper training, then no general harm will come from the practice. It is also obvious that NOT all people who receive training and obtain guns legally will always BE reasonable and responsible.
It is also obvious that the more guns there are 'out there' in plain sight, the easier it will be for people who are not about to be reasonable and responsible to obtain them...as easily as ambushing a 'legal' carrier and taking his gun! (I assume that 'reasonable & responsible' gun carriers are not going to be always walking in groups, hands on triggers, to prevent this)....

It is also the case that HAVING a gun often tempts formerly 'reasonable & responsible' individuals (borderline cases, no doubt..*wry smile*) to push the limits and get into situations where they might have be tempted to use guns.

Now, if all people who 'could' legally, with proper training, obtain guns, behaved 'reasonably & responsibly', then NONE of them would have much need for one, would they?

Outlaws will always GET a share of weapons, if weapons are easily available, and if more 'open carrys' happen, the more chances for conflict.....

The 'right' to openly bear arms is like various other 'rights'...it is only safe and tolerable if very few do it.

Guns have their place, but VERY rarely do they actually solve a problem in public places. I would rather see ½ of 1% trained and licensed for concealed weapons, than to have 5 or 10% carrying openly! I'd MUCH rather the criminals NOT know who might have a gun.

....and I still doubt that "right to keep & bear arms" meant everyone, since it was preceeded by remarks about needing a Militia for safety..

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:33 PM

Ah ha! Now we know! Rapaire shoots paper targets! Are you aware, Rapaire, that by "outing" every environmental nut on the Mudcat is going to be after you! What are targets made of? Right, paper! And where do we get paper! Trees!

Rapaire causes trees to be cut down!

:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 07:36 PM

Bill D:

And the one about freedom of speech talks about a free press- nothing about telephone, internet, etc. The intent of the founding fathers, as provided in the Federalist Papers, was that the citizens should not be disarmed, as the British tried to do in Boston and New York.

The whole basis of the impact of carrying guns on a lower crime rate is that criminals do not like to put themselves in a situation that they might get hurt- so if they do not know who might come around the corner with a gun, they are more likely not to mug that old lady, or steal that purse. ALL the statistics have shown that when strict gun laws are crea6ted, the crime rate has gone up in that area. It becomes safe for the criminal, when the police spend the effort making sure that the citizens are disarmed. Since the law-abiding people will then not have weapons, the criminal is safe in anything he/she wants to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

I would like to see those statistics, Bruce--my suspicion is that the crime rate went up first,and, as is all to typical, opportunistic politicians rushed through anti-gun legislation, as if it was going to solve all the problems--it obviously hasn't, and, unfortunately, no one is saying, "Hey, you idiots, I thought you said that your anti-gun legislation was going to cut crime"--

I think it is a bit ridiculous to go out to dinner with a pistol strapped to your waist just to make a point--though I have to admit that I was amused by it--

I think you are all wrong about criminals and guns, though, bruce--if you follow the murders in Washington, there fair number of gang shoot-outs--obviously either doesn't matter that the other guys are armed, or their guns actually spark the trouble--

DougR--I guess you don't know that a lot of "environmentalist nuts" are also "gun nuts"--and that hunters were among the first, and continue to be among the most active conservationists--and, as I never tire of pointing out, the first presidential candidate to belong to the Sierra Club was Barry Goldwater--

Someone once said, "I love guns and I love ducks. So when I have my gun, duck!"

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM

bruce-- I see you have a conservative's notion of what "strict" gun laws might be. Let me craft a few laws and set up the rules to enforce them...and a few years to undo all the harm already done, and we will see. (Fat chance of THAT happening, huh?)

Indeed, gun laws with many loopholes and few teeth will protect no one....and a country with millions upon millions of unregistered and/or unregulated guns will not be safe no matter WHAT the laws about using and carrying are.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:35 PM

Doug, my targets are all made from 100% post-consumer recycled paper. I fire on a 100% post-consumer recycled shooting range, the backstop of which is the side of a mountain (it really is!). There are no trees at the range to hug, but if you want to come out and hug something there, I can set you up with a delightful little sagebrush I know. It's not very far downrange, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:58 PM

Ah, Bill D., if there are so many guns in this country, and the owners are so careless and mindless as you imply they are, how come we aren't all wading around in blood?

From the same site I cited and linked to earlier.

For the United States:

In 2001, there were 160,009 deaths from all external causes -- falls, poison, shootings, car wrecks, everything.

Of these, 802 were by "accidental" firearms discharge, 323 were by legal intervention firearms discharge (shot by a cop, I guess), 231 were by firearms discharge of "undetermined intent" (huh?), 11,348 by "assault by firearm" (murdered, I suppose) and 16,869 people committed suicide with a firearm. That's a total of 1,356 deaths (excluding the murders and suicides), or 0.85% of all deaths. (Add in 28,217 murders and suicides and firearms discharge accounted for 29,573 deaths, or 18.5% of all exterally caused deaths.)

47,288 people, or 29.6%, died in transportation accidents (cars, trucks, trains, etc.). 15,019 died in falls -- that's 9.4%. But you can do this yourself.

I'm not sure that we can include the murders and suicides, though, as I wonder if the suicides wouldn't have found some other way if a gun wasn't available. The same might be true of the murders. I don't know, I'm not a sociologist.

But there are a LOT of guns available in the US, and the death figures don't support the supposition that because guns are so easily available they are also readily used.

And before you say I'm not, I AM very much in favor of sensible gun control laws. And I think that the pistol-packin' Virginians are frightening and do nothing but stir up trouble for responsible gun owners and users.

Because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:27 PM

"...if there are so many guns in this country, and the owners are so careless and mindless as you imply they are, how come we aren't all wading around in blood?"

my, you read a lot into what I actually said!...where did I say gun owners are careless & mindless? One doesn't need to be "careless & mindless" to be targeted when one's guard is down. That is what rapists and muggers and car-jackers and bank robbers and plain anti-social extremists...etc...DO! And if an 'extra' free gun is one result of a lawless act, many will attempt it..the element of surprise will allow all too many to succeed.

And "...wading around in blood.." is a straw man-- a presumption that only the most extreme problems require preventative measures. Many families every year see all the unnecessary blood they care for, due to careless and/or illegal use of guns.

I have no intent to ban all firearms, but I see NO good that can come of a return to the Old West tradition of self-defense. That was fine, and often NECESSARY when sheriffs were few and widely dispersed, and guns were slow firing and often inaccurate and ammunition was carefully hoarded. Those kids at Columbine High had an arsenal of high powered, fast firing weapons available....obtained by a little deception and tolerated by society.

(please don't tell me that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and that education and social change are needed, not gun control...'cars' don't run over people either, careless people do, but cars are MUCH more a requirement, especially in the West, than guns are.)

as I said, let me write the laws---hunters will still be able to hunt, collectors of classic weapons will still be able to collect...but kids with bad attitudes will have to WORK much harder to take out their frustrations on their classmates!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:55 PM

I do wonder if we'd agree on what constitutes 'sensible' gun control laws...I sure hope so!

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:08 PM

if those carrying are properly trained in the usage and safety of a firearm....then what is the problem? i don't carry one because I don't think I need one...but if I felt that need then why shouldn't I be able to?

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Well, Amergin, I'm with you. Why not?

Rapaire: Now way, my friend. You'd probably find a sagebrush behind that environmentally friendly target and I ain't bitin' on that!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Virginians Wearing Guns in Public
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 09:53 AM

...how come we aren't all wading around in blood?

In some areas, notably inner city neighborhoods, "we" are.

Move from the general statistics to the specific & the picture changes dramatically.