BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply

Subject: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 02:36 PM

Looks as though the Democrats still need to get a spine!

DNC: Don't bash Bush: Kerry wants Dems to tone down criticism
By David R. Guarino and Andrew Miga
Monday, July 26, 2004

Democrats are scrambling to tamp down former Vice President Al Gore and firebrand Howard Dean [related, bio] before they step to the convention podium, worried they may embarrass John Kerry [related, bio] with red-meat anger and excessive Bush bashing.
    The Democratic National Convention and Kerry campaign staffs are working feverishly to rewrite, polish and tone down speeches submitted in advance of today's convention opening bell.
    Party leaders, including Kerry, said they know the four-day fete has to play in Peoria, not just on the FleetCenter parquet.
    ``Attack wins in some cases, but you don't win presidential elections (with it) because people are tired of it,'' Sen. Edward M. Kennedy [related, bio] said on ABC's ``This Week.''
    Kerry himself told The New York Times yesterday he doesn't want his convention to offer Americans only a reason to vote against President Bush [related, bio].
    ``I do not want it to be that,'' Kerry said. ``I want this to be a positive affirmation of why I'm running for president and what I want to do as president.''
    Attention - and fear - is mostly focused on Gore, who kicks off the convention with a primetime speech tonight but has rankled some party leaders with his recent conversion to throaty, vicious attacks on Bush.
    Gore rankled Kerry when he endorsed then-front-running Dean early in the primary season. Gore, who remains bitter after losing the hotly contested, controversial 2000 presidential race, is one of Bush's harshest critics.
    But Democrats also concede they are concerned that Dean, who rose to prominence by attacking Bush and the war in Iraq, U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich [related, bio] or the Rev. Al Sharpton [related, bio] could all embarrass the Kerry-Edwards ticket.
    The Kerry camp is putting on a full-court press to keep speakers such as Gore and Dean on message - reviewing speeches for any over-the-top anti-Bush rhetoric or partisan invective.
    Democrats are aiming for an upbeat convention that echoes Kerry's ``Stronger at Home, Respected in the World'' themes.
    ``This is going to be the most harmonious convention we've had in years,'' New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson said on the ``Fox News Sunday'' show.
    Even DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe seemed suprised so many Democrats are falling in line.
    ``It's not normally how this party operates,'' he said.
    For speakers, the memo went out - literally - weeks ago.
    Kerry convention organizer Jack Corrigan wrote speakers a three-page memo outlining the ``clear message'' Kerry wanted to send from the convention.
    All drafts were submitted for review, changed and rewritten with the no-negative rules heavily enforced. Among the guidance offered: ``Criticism of Bush is allowed, but only as a subtle or indirect dig when comparing Kerry's vision to Bush's record. Red meat won't be served at this convention.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 02:41 PM

That explains why they didn't ask me to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:44 PM

One reason, anyway. Kerry may be making a wise call here. There probably are a lot of swing voters who steer clear from all the bashery. I can understand he tactic, and I hope it works. This is not a question of inadequate spine, but of courtesy and effective communication. If bashing turns out to be what persuades more voters, we can revert! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 04:21 PM

I concur with Amos. The convention is the best opportunity to introduce Kerry to the undecided voters. Best to let Bush's record speak for its self.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:37 PM

so I'm excluded then....

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

I also suspect that Kerry has decided to let the Republican mud slinging and negative campaigning fall on it's own face. He knows that people across the country are sick and tired of the dirty politicking.

He also is starting to declare that he wants to be a President that brings people TOGETHER, rather than divide them. I wish him well. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST,Millard Fillmore
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:09 PM

Forget about Kerry! Forget about Bush. Vote for me. I have returned at the head of the Know Nothing Party, which I last ran for in 1856 (unsuccessfully, due to voting fraud). If elected....no, WHEN elected, I will delay the 3rd World War by at least 10 years. I will eliminate the national debt by abolishing the Bureau of Statistics. I will increase the profitability of liquor companies and breweries by 300% through personally imbibing hugely. I will put a chicken in every pot and a tree on every lot. I will ensure that silly, stupid people receive full equality before the law and are no longer discriminated against by other silly, stupid people. I will protect the USA against foreign-based terrorism by building an impervious transparent carbide dome over all 50 states (Hawaii included). I will annex Canada and use it as a theme park/nature preserve.

Vote Fillmore in 2004!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:51 PM

My God I think all you Americans live in Disneyland.

Do you really seriously think that a change of leader will alter the way America is Governed.

Business interests run America, and to a lesser extent the rest of the Western world.   We have no democracy, we have no choice, we ultimately have no voice at all.

Where were Kerrys Democrats when they were needed to oppose Bushes war?....In fucking hiding ,where else.

Its a case of ,"were all in the same boat boys, so dont rock it too much"
If they were a real alternative, they would squeeze the Republicans' balls till their eyes watered ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Fishpicker
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM

"Do you really seriously think that a change of leader will alter the way America is Governed.

Business interests run America, and to a lesser extent the rest of the Western world.   We have no democracy, we have no choice, we ultimately have no voice at all."


Hurray!! finally someone who actually gets it!

Thanks AKE, you made my day!!!!

Vote republicrat to perpetuate the grand illusion, keep your mouths shut and do as you are told.

FP

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:27 PM

ake & fishpicker....and just which country do think we should emulate?

Which country displays 'proper' respect and peaceful, non-economic motives toward all the others? You don't say specifically what country YOU live in and how it's better.

The USA has its flaws, as does every other country I know...but LOTS of us are trying to do the best we can to make it better and elect leaders which will listen to reason. The current administration will not...Kerry might...
we do this by slow steps, and if you'd like to offer specific ideas, rather than just common "America Bashing", go right ahead..

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:32 PM

Akenaton, you are so right. That is the sad truth of the matter. I watch the 4 year farce of American Presidential elections with the same detached feeling I used to have watching the farce of Soviet elections. There they had one party and acted like it was still a real election...in the USA they do basically the same thing, but they cleverly call the one party by 2 names. I call it by one name: The Redemocrapublicants. If you analyze that word syllable by syllable it says a lot.

It also says a lot that a guy almost can't GET elected President in the USA unless he beats his chest over his past military service...or his future military intentions. People have to have confidence that he knows exactly how to blow things up real good and "kick foreign ass". Sounds like Germany or Italy back in the 30's to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 11:43 PM

we wouldn't want to generalize or anything, would we? Good grief, Little Hawk! Did you READ that before you posted?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:04 AM

I hope some of you were listening to Carter and Clinton tonight. Clinton is still as charismatic as ever. Except for an interruption by my son asking a question, I heard the whole thing. I shusshed him and told him I'd answer later, and may even listen again later to get the line that I missed. Clinton explains clearly and precisely what needs to be done. Except for that one thing, my 12-year-old was able to follow that speech and understand the important points. It's a great skill to be able to speak fully to your audience without condescending or excluding any listeners. (The question had to do with choosing Edwards as VP--a good question, but asked at an inopportune time).

I can see why they want space of a few days separating Clinton and Kerry--Kerry is articulate and calm, but not as warm as Clinton, who is a tough act to follow. (Bush couldn't hope to make a speech like that if his life depended upon it).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:07 AM

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the first night of the DNC Convention and look forward to tomorrow night's speeches, too. The theme of unity, a widening circle, etc. was well put. I LOVED hearing Jimmy Carter's oh-so-eloquent and gentlemanly "telling it like it is" and Bill proved he's still got "it" as does Hillary. This was the most exciting thing I've seen from the Dems in ages. I hope it keeps up!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:19 AM

SRS--

Absolutely--I heard most of Bill's speech in the car this evening.   He sure did make it crystal clear there are huge differences between the Democrats and Republicans (especially between Kerry and Bush.)

Something along the lines of "Y'know the Republicans in Congress used to treat me kinda mean. But since I've joined the upper 1% in income I've never been so well cared for by the Republicans." Then he detailed a list of programs not being funded so the upper 1% can have their full tax cut.


People of Little Hawk's views should really ask themselves if there'd really be no difference between 4 more years of Bush (which is what he'll get if he doesn't go for Kerry) and 4 years of Kerry. Do we really have to have a repeat of 2000?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:23 AM

Or is he Canadian?   Either way, anybody who thinks there's no difference between Kerry and Bush is just stuck in his own tunnel vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:29 AM

Oh, I DO prefer the Democrats. And I do want to see Bush voted out. But, I have no real confidence in the Democrats at the same time, because they are a bought party, as are the Republicans. They are both bought and paid for by essentially the same big money interests that provide them with their campaign funding and control the whole friggin' economy and determine national policy. The election is like the Superbowl. It's merely to keep the public distracted and give them something to focus on. Actually it's like the whole year's football season, capped by the Superbowl, only difference being: there are only really 2 official teams, instead of 30 or 40 of them. When I say it's as phony as elections in Soviet Russian, I am dead serious.

Yeah, Bill, I read it before I posted. :-) It just strikes you as an extreme statement because you're an American, and you live inside a certain set of assumptions...which I would call not the American Dream, but the American Illusion. I used to believe it was real. Now I know it's not. Neither is Canadian politics or British politics. It's just a marketing exercise by the Powers That Be.

Still I vote. Might as well...it's better than not voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:32 AM

I have seldom heard a politician who was as able to list the points as eloquently and clearly as Clinton. Mario Cuomo came close, and a couple of Kennedys did well, but Clinton "lines it out"......Kerry does 'ok', but he can't 'knit' words like Clinton can.

I can't WAIT to see what batch of words-of-no-more-than-two-syllables in simple, declarative sentences the speechwriters put together for Bush to mouth when his turn comes...

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:37 AM

As long as each side has to raise about 200 million dollars to compete and those dollars are mostly coming from U.S. Corporations, both parties will respond to the wishes of those corporations and not the wishes of ordinary folks. This is not democracy - this is called fascism. Both party conventions are being paid for by U.S. corporations who will get what they paid for no matter who wins.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:39 AM

Bill Clinton is definitely a very talented politician. The Democrats struck gold when they found him. If I was American, I'd vote for him any old time...Monica or no Monica.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:47 AM

Bev and Jerry - Correct. Fascism is an alliance between big business and the military, using unscrupulous (or frightened) politicans to carry out policy deemed beneficial for big business and the military. Fascism is powered by the fear of enemies, external and internal, and never ceases searching for a new enemy to inspire public paranioa. If a real enemy does not exist, an unreal one must be found or manufactured. The search for unreal enemies inevitably produces large numbers of very real enemies. The result is war. War is very good for big business, except in the case where one's country is invaded and loses the war. A power as great as the USA figures that this is an unlikely eventuality...which is true. Therefore, it is free to go about the World and invade other places...same as the Russians do from time to time here and there in their smaller sphere of influence. Russia is also essentially fascist, and so is China.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:49 AM

SRS, here's the text of Bill's speech.

The one major thing which is different, this time, imo, is online campaigning, fundraising, and gathering voters. Last time it was practically unheard of for a candidate to garner support, esp. funding, from online donations. This time, the Dems., at least (I haven't checked the GOP) have been garnering millions from ordinary citizens, giving in small amounts. This has not been ignored. Moveon.org has been a driving force behind using the Internet to take back politics to the people. Howard Dean also showed us the power of going directly to the people via email and websites. THIS, imo, will have a large impact on *politics as usual;* has had already on some issues.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:07 AM

By contrast, in the UK the electorate has a clear choice between the Conservatives and...er...New Labour...sorry, I've forgotten what my point was.

wr.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

I'm miffed???....

Hey, it was understandable why I didn't get asked to speak but I just got off the phone with my buddy, Ralph Nadar, and he wasn't either???...

See what I mean???...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:17 AM

Well, I think you should have been allowed to speak, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

here is the best concise explanation I have yet seen of how the minds of the voters are working.

Why? or do I need to ask in the dunb questions thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:30 PM

As far as "red-meat anger and Bush-bashing" is concerned, that would be the easy—but sleazy—route. I think it's wise to back off on that and leave it to Michael Moore, Al Franken, et al. With these guys at work, and with folks like Molly Ivins throwing in the zingers (I love Molly Ivins!), that front is well covered. And judging from the commercials I've seen so far, while the Kerry forces talk about what's wrong with the county, what the country really needs, and how Kerry and Edwards are the ones to bring it about, most of the commercials from the Bush side that I've seen seem to be devoted to bashing Kerry. And they have to do a lot of distorting of the truth to make the Kerry-bashing commercials sound even plausible.

Point:   I think the negative campaigning—the real mud-slinging—will be coming from the Republicans. It's going to be really hard for the Republicans to run Bush on the basis of his accomplishments, so all they can really do is go negative. What else have they got?

Last night, while keeping things on an essentially positive note, Clinton managed to do a pretty good job of laying out who's who, what's what, and who's been doing what to whom. A whole lot better than standing there saying that Bush is a lying, mealy-mouthed little weasel.

Even if it is true.

So far, so good!

I think Ron Reagan is scheduled to speak tonight. I'm looking forward to that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:55 PM

Little Hawk....You made some very good points in your posts, and its obvious you can still summon up real emotion on the subject.

Its a pity most of the sheep on this forum have their eyes too close together to see the bigger picture.
Here in the UK we've had our share of psuedo-socialist leaders.
They never do any real good, even the ones who mean what they say.

I love your phrase "American illusion".    WE have a British illusion as well,and these well meaning people simply keep the illusion alive...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 01:04 PM

Ha! Good cartoon, Bill D. That pretty well sums it up for me regarding the undecided vote in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 04:04 PM

Bleaugh!!! I just checked Bill D's link to the cartoon. The part that has me tearing what's left of my hair out is that I often listen to a relatively intelligent call-in show on my local NPR affiliate, and I've heard that same little dissertion on personal political ambiguity dozens of times practially word for word for real! Scary!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 05:01 PM

If Kerry intends to win (and based upon the candidate's behavior to date, I've got my doubts that he is in this to win, rather than just derail the progressive wing of the party and devour it's resources the same way Clinton/Gore did when they left the party nearly bankrupt in 2000), he will have to go negative, hitting the Bush/Cheney team hard and fast.

That is the strategy the Republicans have adopted, and it is currently working brilliantly for them. They've closed the gaps in the poll numbers that Kerry had made some progress on last month. Going into the convention this week, it was Kerry looking like a lame duck nominee, just like Dukakis and Mondale before him.

If the Democrats and Kerry don't go negative--and I mean REALLY negative, very soon (definitely before and during the RNC in Sept), Kerry will lose, and likely take down a good number of Democratic Senate and House seats with him.

That's my fearless prediction, anyway.

Why the hell are the Democrats such chicken shits?

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

You're the chicken shit, 'pest ghoster'...

This country was founded on principle, not senseless agression. Is your manhood so 'fragile' that you have to go around with a constant 'mad on' to try and cover up the sodomite fantasies you so quailingly covet? Get a grip on yourself wee tyke... and put down that assault rifle. Love is gonna set you straight.

"It's a pretty dumb man that needs to fight to feel alright with himself... but the downright stupid ones are those that truly believe that hurting people makes the world a better and safer place"
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:11 PM

well, the point of that cartoon to me is that too many of the voters have surrendered to simplistic, easy answers......and the Republican strategists have about mastered the art of buzz-word associating. They have a catch phrase for every possible demographic group..."flip-flop" "wishy-washy" "most liberal" "anti-gun" "voted FOR" "voted AGAINST" "rich wife" "aloof" "New England" "eliteist"....need I go on?

They have learned to pander to those who simply don't want to THINK by offering them an easy way to pigeonhole Kerry..(or ANY candidate the Democrats might have nominated)...The Republicans have a certain voter base who would vote for Bush if he sprouted horns and a tail and explicitly told them he was gonna tap every phone line in America! ("well, I ain't got nuthin' to hide, LET 'em tap them commie-lovin' liberals..")....all they need is to keep attention on anti-Kerry buzzwords, and away from the meat of the damage Bush & Co. are doing. If the Democrats can't find a way to counter that and get a couple of focus points of their own (**deficit** **failed war**...whatever) they are lost!

..and Little Hawk,*tsk*, you presume a lot about what my assumptions are just because I an an American. "American Illusion?" piffle! Just because those who DO deal in slogans like "American Dream" are so forward about it and wave flags when they should be reading history, doesn't mean I can't separate rhetoric from reality.....and I repeat, what sense does it make to make generalizations that compare the US (or Canada, OR the UK) to Germany or Italy in the 30s? The differences are manifold and the few similarities are functions of temporary attitudes of a few idiots who have modern technology (and a new type of journalism*) to distract people from the real issues.

*(new type of journalism....the notion that journalism should be entertainment and make news, rather than report news!) When have you seen a news program which bothers to discuss a set of issues and opinions about the issues, rather than collect a batch of 'talking heads' to analyze rhetorical questions about superficial trends and gossip? "Do you think Teresa Heinz will retract that 'shove it' remark? Should the Democrats reign her in? Will Kerry's hair-do prove a hindrance to him? Is John Edwards too good-looking?"

"Are rhetorical questions ruining American journalism? Does anyone notice or care?"

I'm Bill Day, and I approved this message.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:24 AM

Thank god for CSPAN....the entire thing was fantastic tonight. Barak Obama had a fire and conviction and eloquence which brought to mind the hope and energy of the 60's and Teresa is one hell of a woman! I think she'd be a fantastic asset in the White House, and I don't necessarily mean as someone's wife!

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:20 AM

It's not that I think you personally are dumb enough to be taken in by what I refer to as the American Illusion, Bill. It's that I think some people are. The political parties and politicians think so too, and they will continue to play the same old games they have played in the past.

I do think that the USA is a remarkably aggressive and militaristic country, one of the most aggressive in history. The USA has attacked, at one time or another, almost everyone it could have attacked. Every time a politician runs for President there is a tremendous emphasis placed on either his past military service or his will to use military force. This doesn't give me confidence in the good intentions of the USA. Having grown up in a country that is radically more peaceful in its general approach to the rest of the World, I can't help but notice the difference...and that is why I compare the USA to the fascist powers of the late 30's. I see a similar psychological pattern being enacted.

I have NEVER seen a Canadian Prime Minister promoted or elected on the basis of his military credentials. I've not even seen it alluded to in any way. Our politicians are not (figuratively speaking) cowboys with guns strapped around their waists...they are civilian legislators in suits whom no one even associates with the military. This tells you in a moment the difference in psychology between the 2 countries. Americans grow up in a country created through war, enlarged through war, idolizing war, celebrating war, and expecting more war in the near future. Such expectations usually bear fruition on a pretty regular basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Gotta bit of a guest grudge there, Thomas the Rhymer?

Look, I don't consider going negative in political campaign advertising to be the moral equivalent of murder or child abuse, as you and most 'nice' and 'sensible' liberals do. In fact, I think protesting about 'going negative' is a cheap political tactic used by liberals to try and make the opposition look bad, that rarely if ever works.

I happen to think fighting for the soul of the country is well worth the cost of showing all the negatives about the Bush/Cheney administration in political advertisements, if it works to rid the country of the bastards.

I do know this: if the Kerry campaign doesn't start speaking the truth about their opponents soon, there will be no reason for ANYONE to vote for Kerry, no matter how much liberals love his wife and his vice presidential choice.

The Kerry campaign has been even more banal and predictably scripted than the Gore campaign of 2000, from the media punditry's predictions that Kerry would be the nominee over a year ago, to his safe choice of Edwards as a running mate, to his 'positive' spins on what has been a disastrous four years--with him AND his running mate contributing to the disasters more often than not.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:52 AM

Admittedly, the Democrats have been beaten up, and are down for the count... but this is a chess match, ya stupid galoot, not 'big time' wrestling! The realities of the Bush ad ministration speak for themselves. It is a point of principle to let the gloating giant stew in silence... The situation is a simple David and Goliath metaphor.

(For you FBI/CIA folks out there, please be aware of the fact that I am only speaking metaphorically, for I do not wish any physical harm to Bush... )

The whole point is, that the 'need to attack others' is a dangerous psychosis in a world leader... in a supposed 'statesman'... and is indicative of a conspicuously unballanced emotional make up. The 'funny farm' has special coats for people with problems like these...

It is time to give diplomacy the nod...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:16 AM

The problem with people who think like you, Thomas the Rhymer, is that you view critical thinking and legitimate criticism as 'negative'. The problem with people who think like you, is that you haven't got the the guts, the courage, the chutzpah, the integrity, to call a spade a spade and speak truth to power. The problem with people who think like you, is it is just that sort of 'middle class nice' that got the country into the shit hole it is in now.

No one benefits from artifice and phony sincerety more than politicians, regardless of their party affiliation.

And BTW, this isn't chess or wrestling. It is politics as usual in an election year. Some of us just refuse to attempt to cover the stench of it with nice platitudes like the people who think like you are trying to do with the Kerry/Democratic Party "lose the election" strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: Rabble-rousers need not apply
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:22 PM

Good brave words there from LH and Guest.

Its always a mystery to me why so many people still think we live in a decent paternalistic society.
Folk seem to want to see good in even the most devious of leaders.

Guest is right ,the time is rapidly approaching, when we will have to confront the evil in our society,and that evil does not rest in personalities,but in its very structure.
Little Hawk has outlined its militaristic nature,but the reliance on greed and complete indifference to the suffering of our brothers and sisters can no longer be sustained.
We must start thinking about our world "long term",or in afew years we will enhabit a socially divided desert.   Ake