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Busking is begging?

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The Shambles 22 Aug 04 - 05:53 AM
The Shambles 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 AM
Deckman 12 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM
The Shambles 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,reggie miles 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Guest; tony 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM
Peace 11 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM
reggie miles 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM
jets 09 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM
PennyBlack 09 Aug 04 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,skyesidhe 09 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM
PoppaGator 09 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM
The Shambles 09 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM
PoppaGator 09 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM
SINSULL 09 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM
Blues=Life 09 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM
PennyBlack 09 Aug 04 - 06:10 AM
Blues=Life 09 Aug 04 - 12:28 AM
The Shambles 08 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM
PoppaGator 08 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM
PennyBlack 08 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM
The Shambles 08 Aug 04 - 05:39 AM
Peace 08 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM
Peace 08 Aug 04 - 12:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 08 Aug 04 - 12:01 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM
PennyBlack 07 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM
Blues=Life 07 Aug 04 - 08:06 PM
Peace 07 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM
alanabit 07 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,Another stupid alias 07 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM
alanabit 07 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM
Bobert 07 Aug 04 - 08:34 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM
PennyBlack 04 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM
hesperis 04 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM
The Shambles 04 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM
PennyBlack 04 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM
PennyBlack 04 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM
Nathan in Texas 04 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM
The Shambles 04 Aug 04 - 02:07 PM
PennyBlack 04 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM
hesperis 04 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM
The Shambles 04 Aug 04 - 08:51 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM
PennyBlack 04 Aug 04 - 03:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:53 AM

See also

What compels a musician to busk?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 AM

The long-running UK arts TV programme The South Bank Show starts a new series tonight Sunday 22 August 2004. It is devoted to profiles of 4 London buskers.

The Radio Times preview contains the following:

The only good quote comes from one daft musician: "Busking and begging are completly different things. You can't even put them in the same sentence." But you just did!

The writer here does seem to be trying to make a clever point here but has chosen to miss the point that if this statement was not made in response to a specific question from those making the film - it was a question that the makers would have wished to examine. The fact that the musician put busking and begging in the same sentance, to possibly defend one, simply reflects this.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

You might find this interesting: I've been re-reading a series of books published by Time/Life, on the history of WW2. Within the book titled "The Battle of Britain," I came across the term "buskers." The reference was used in the description of rigors of the Londoners as they sought safety in the underground subways during the bombings. I quote: "Many of the stations' residents arranged their own amusments. Often a community sing would be going on. And there were always plenty of BUSKERS around - the entertainers who in peacetime performed on the street for people standing in queus at theaters and cinemas. They performed in just as lively a fashion for their new audiences in the underground. At Aldwych, in the center of the theater district, such famous stars as Laurence Olivier, Vivien Leigh and Ivor Novello would come down after their evening performances and present impromptu songs and sketches."   

I hope this adds to the discussion. Bob


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

It rather reinforces the idea that whether buskers are generally viewed as beggars - is up to buskers. How the authorities treat buskers is probably again largely up to how buskers respond to that treatment, no matter how heavy-handed this may be.

If you always behave like a skilled-professional - chances are that you and hopefully every other busker will eventually be viewed as that. The distinction between begging and busking, which is a very narrow one in some people's eyes - will become wider and a lot clearer.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM

Wow! Tony, thanks for the well stated insight.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Guest; tony
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM

My busking experiences are in the past, and these things change quite quickly - but I suspect that such a list would be of limited use.

If you intend to work outside of theatres, contracts, agents, etc., you fall into an uncontrolled category - you have freedom, but relinquish certain rights.

You are challenging both written laws - which have frozen many past attitudes to travelling performers (and may be interpreted more or less sympathetically by contemporary officers) -and also the unwritten ones - the attitudes of the public, other people working on the street, etc.

In countries with less structured welfare systems, many poor people 'work' the streets in various ways. You may have to consider these people more than the police - local performers who claim a performance pitch; street vendors seeing you strip money from the crowd; even protection rackets, who assume (rightly) that you may hand a certain amount over if threatened - it isn't only the government that taxes you.

You have to deal with these people directly, without the protection of the law. You certainly have human rights, although once out of your native land they can be somewhat different from your expectations - but you are also vulnerable to laws specifically enacted to keep the solid citizens of the community satisfied.

There is usually no law against juggling in a public place if you are not obviously dangerous (like juggling a machete, a torch and a bowling ball on a six foot unicycle). Still, there are probably several laws that may affect you, each designed to control different activities in the street.

For example, in the UK you could be arrested (or at least cautioned and moved on) by reference to laws on "obstruction" - if the crowd you draw blocks the footpath and people have to step into traffic to get past; for "causing a public nuisance" (which necessitates the police receiving a complaint from a member of the public, who may be a shopkeeper whose window is blocked, or someone who doesn't like your amplified music); "begging" is illegal in most places - there's nothing to prevent people making a gift of money to you, but you must not ask. To illustrate this, and the way laws may be interpreted, I offer this example.

A friend is a chalk artist [ed: Hadass Tamir]. She leaves a box for people who like her work to throw money into. Because she (unlike performers) has her attention on the ground, she chalks "Thank-you" in the local language, to save interrupting the flow of her work each time a coin lands in the box. One time I saw a policewoman standing over her in Cardiff. I went over to negotiate for her, thinking she was about to be moved on. "It's nice work, and people like it," said the officer, "but she must not ask for money." I protested that she just worked quietly and demanded nothing. "Yes, but that word 'Thank-you' is asking people to put money in the box." I insisted that it was just to thank them if they did. She was adamant, however, that she didn't object to two square metres of pavement being covered in drawing, but that offensive "begging" word had to be rubbed out. I scuffed it out with my shoe and she went away, quite satisfied that the law was now being respected.

No wonder I don't really understand the law - when thank-you means please! (And this was in my own country, in my native language.) It's an example of a police response which was both sympathetic (not looking for trouble) and yet pedantic (not simply turning a blind eye). Whether laws are activated against you will often depend on your own attitudes to other people, both in and out of uniform.

If you intend to travel by juggling, you could find yourself labelled as a "vagrant". This is a wide-based definition used to discourage travelling without visible means of support, or an address, etc., and could be used against someone without the means to prove they are a "tourist" and not working illegally. This is the definition of "Rogues and Vagabonds" from the Vagrancy Act in 1713:

"All Fencers, Bearwards, common players of Interludes, Minstrells, Juglers, all persons pretending to be Gipsies or Wand'ring in the Habit or Form of counterfeit Egyptians or pretending to have skill in Physiognomy, Palmestry or like crafty Science or pretending to sell Fortunes or like phantastical imaginations or using any Subtle Craft or unlawful Game or Plays..."

...and these people could be whipped, set to hard labour or transported. It is probable that "Juglers" here means conjurors, but you can see how this law might catch you in its net. In fact, the law which is in use in England at the moment is the Vagrancy Act of 1824, originally introduced to deal with the problem of rootless ex-soldiers discharged after the Napoleonic Wars. It had fallen into disuse, but has recently been re-activated to try to sweep homeless people from the streets of central London.

I noticed, in the Neil Stammer interview, the casual use of the phrase "jugglers are like gypsies." There is the romantic notion of the free Bohemian life-style, the mysterious and magical image you may wish to evoke in the public - the carefree gypsy. Unfortunately, most of the written laws surrounding "gypsies" are extremely punitive.

The issue here is not whether you are a "Gypsy" racially - this is an area as sensitive as discussing the distinctions between Jews as a race and as a religious group - but whether you may be treated as one. This is great if you meet people in their romantic mood: one face of the settled population greets the entertainer, the wayward artist, romanticizing the life outside the "normal" laws and ethics of society, the wild musicians who captivated the cafe society, the hint of mystery and fortune telling and unknown powers.

Yet it is worth remembering the other face, and the fact that the "gypsies", or more properly "Rom", have suffered terrible persecution in the course of their history. "The Nazis had a law of genocide against Jews and Gypsies for about eight years; we (in Britain) had one for Gypsies for two and a half centuries; in the 15th and 16th centuries hundreds of Gypsies were hanged in England solely on account of their race" (Thomas Acton, "True Gypsies - Myth or Reality", New Society 6June 1974).

This is tragic history, but it doesn't affect you, right? Wrong. Like "Bohemian", the term "Gypsy" is sufficiently vague to cover anyone who deviates from society's norm of fixed abode. "For several centuries the mere fact of being a "Bohemian" in France was sufficient to be sent to the galleys.... Who exactly were the individuals targeted by this expulsion policy? .... in five centuries that term was never defined." (Jean-Pierre Liegois, Gypsies, 1986 -tr. from "Tsiganes", 1983)

I am not going to attempt to disperse the clouds of disinformation surrounding the Rom. The lack of written records, and the complex multiplicity underlying that one simple word "Gypsy" take us beyond this article. I have found some material that suggests that the Rom may have brought juggling from India to Europe - but that is the seed of another article.

Now that law-makers are cautious about being seen to enact racist laws, and ethnic groups demand rights to continue with traditional modes of life, it has become important to deny that there is one easily distinguished group (who might have rights); so when Travellers actually try to park anywhere they find that they tend to be lumped together by settled citizens and their laws.

Here is a current British law, defining "Gypsies" as "...persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such." (UK Caravan Sites Act of 1986, Section 16)

This is a huge, complicated and fascinating subject. Suffice it to say that European countries have harsh laws aimed at Travellers of all kinds. There has always been a mixture of people travelling - merchants, refugees, disbanded armies, displaced people, economic migrants, pilgrims, etc - and laws invented to control them. You don't have to be part of an ethnic minority to find out that the resistance of populations to "gypsies" hasn't changed much. New Age Travellers using their initiative to avoid homelessness or poverty by adopting this lifestyle can still draw the negative responses that "Gypsies" have often endured. "Why don't you get a proper job?" is one of the mildest.

So the public may love you or hate you - either way, you are an ambassador for all the other street-workers - ideally you offer a good show, avoid offensive language, keep props and costumes as clean as possible, don't endanger the public and leave no mess behind you. You may prefer to be more challenging and "anarchic" (in the negative sense), but remember that each time you do that you re-confirm to the powers-that-be that their laws are valid, and you make it harder for the next performer. All street performing is testing a frontier, and setting new limits.

Don't forget that a written guide not only means a lot of people will seek out the same place at the same season (can you stand the competition?) but that such lists may also be read by police departments, neo-fascist vigilantes or outraged citizens. It might be useful to centralize information on festivals that hire performers, but then you are effectively back into show-biz and agents, etc.

There are good reasons why information about informal performing is circulated by word of mouth - whether you think of that as some sort of exclusive freemasonry or underground movement is up to you. So long as "being able to do the cascade" is considered sufficient to be recognized as part of "our tribe", then we need to be sure that people respect some unwritten rules of behaviour, as well as act cautiously when testing the laws of the land (and not provoke them into being revived and enforced) - and discourage abuse of such information.

Have Fun, Tony


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

You can call a sheep a dog, but that won't make it bark. Busking is NOT begging. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: reggie miles
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

No busking is not begging.

Long ago when the practice of busking began entertainment wasn't as easily found as it is in our very electronically connected world today. Now, many of us on the planet can enjoy a vast array of entertainment choices. With only the push of a button we are bombarded with entertainment overload. Rival global conglomerates and their sponsors vie for our attention in hopes of gaining increased product market share and to ensure product loyalty. One simple example of this is the lengths that some companies will go to follow the browsing habits of those who frequent the web with software programs that spy on these patterns. The sophistication of advertising online via pop-up ads, spybots and spam has grown out of control. Is it any wonder that in our very commercial world that some might try to malign busking and liken it to begging? Unless major businesses are willing to back such activities with some kind of new reality TV show, sitcom, world tour, or twist it into some kind of venue whereby they can turn a profit from the venture for themselves they will forever continue to equate it as less than the mass produced varieties that they peddle. I, for one, don't agree with that point of view. I'm glad to read here that so many of you hold busking in such high regard.

If I don't see ya in the future, I'll saw ya in the pasture.

Or perhaps on some street corner near you.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: jets
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM

I have been busking for at least 10 yrs.Never have I thought or felt that I was begging. Yes people put money in my open case but they often say thank you for makinging there day more pleasant and memorable. How about the hugs and the kiss on the cheek by the young women . Why did the owner of the jewelry store pay me to play in front of his store if he thought I was begging?
For the past year I have been receiving pay from the owner of an Italian resturant (pizza etc}to play in his store . He pays me and I also have an open case for donations. Is this still begging? I thinkk not. In the end it matters not for I enjoy doing it very much.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:04 PM

The Shambles - I was going to say that!

With reference to Bobert's comments re. Car boots sales etc. where he doesn't ask or imply he would like a donation, I would agree that he is neither Busking or Begging just enjoying music Al Fresco and sharing that with others at the event, by accepting money from some passers-by would not change that, as long further visits were done for the same reason and not in the hope of such "tips".

There does appear to be a different approach to "Busking" in the USA compared with the UK where as mentioned in other threads, due to changes in the licensing laws, it will/may fall foul of requiring a license (however Begging won't - ummm). But where else, other than the UK, would people be prosecuted for Singing "Happy Birthday to You". Maybe we should all move to "The Land of The Free"

P.B.

Still think it's a shame there's such a stigma attached to begging considering it's origins and the amount of courage it must take in some cases to ask for such help.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,skyesidhe
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM

Since this question seemed to be oriented as to whether or not it's generally considered begging in the UK in specific...well, as far as I've seen it is actually more accepted in the UK and Ireland than here in the US. I have seen many buskers in both London and around the entire countries of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well as have busked myself in Galway. I do have to say though, that there is definately a quality line. Most buskers there are of a pretty high quality because the competition is pretty heated. So...nope it's not begging, but there is an expectance of quality..that's my general assesment.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

I'm gratified to see Don's note that

... "busking" is a relatively modern term (chiefly British)...

I never encountered the word (in the US) until relatively recently, and have begun to wonder how I missed learning it. Now I know -- it's chiefly British!

In fact, back when I was *doing* it, I had never heard the word "busking." As far as I was concerned, what I was doing was "streetsinging." Of course, this term would not apply to non-singing instrumental performers, so "busking" becomes a very useful word.

Don's link to "BuskPittsburgh" was quite enlightening. I never had to bother with permits back in the early 70s, and occasionally (but rarely) was "asked" to move along by police. Of course, I picked my spots pretty carefully, usually confining myself to areas where the practice was already well-established. Applying for permission, especially when the permit specifies a particular limited time-frame as well as place (as seems to be the current situation in the NYC subway system), seems somewhat alien to my former lifestyle. Ah, for the good old days!


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM

If you are offering a service (singing, juggling, making balloon animals, etc.), displaying a sign saying "Voluntary contributions accepted," is not begging. I've been to many concerts in rented halls or churches where there was no admission charge, but on the program there was note that said "voluntary contributions to cover our expenses* will be appreciated" or words to that effect. I do not regard that as "begging." And busking is essentially the same thing, but on a smaller scale.

After all, if you come into the hall voluntarily or if you stop voluntarily to listen to the busker, you are participating in an exchange. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. You can choose to receive the service, or not. If you choose to receive the service, it's quite legitimate for the person offering the service to expect compensation. If you don't want the service, don't go into the hall, or just walk on by. Offering goods or services and expecting compensation for it is not begging. It's commerce.

Begging is asking for alms and offering nothing in return except a pathetic expression and tone of voice (and perhaps a good feeling tinged a bit with superiority and/or pity). You should hear what Utah Phillips has to say about the kids who hang around in front of the Mini-Mart, accost people coming out, and beg for "spare change." First, he says, "There is no such thing as spare change," then he goes on to say quite a lot.

To put it even more strongly, suppose someone had a card table set up displaying home-made jewelry. If you stopped, looked over the wares offered, and wanted, say, a bracelet, it is certainly reasonable and expected that you should pay the craftsperson for it (and quite probably, be asked for a specific amount). Goods (e.g., the bracelet)and services (the busker's entertainment) are generally offered with the quite legitimate expectation of compensation from those who chose to participate in the exchange.

Don Firth

*And "expenses" often covered the fee paid to the performer or performers.

P. S.: Incidentally, I have no particular personal ax to grind here. I have never gone busking, and I don't particularly intend to. But if I did, I would do so without shame and without feeling that I was "begging."


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

Busking is most assuredly not begging.

I agree Don but does your explanation mean tht asking for a donation is begging but receiving a donation is not?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM

I repeat what I wrote above: "busking" is a relatively modern term (chiefly British) for what minstrels and troubadours did in centuries past (and remember, many of the older narrative and lyrical songs that are now regarded as traditional ballads and folk songs came from the poetic and musical talents of these minstrels and troubadours [read The Wandering Scholars by Helen Waddell]). If they were not either lucky enough to gain the patronage of a noble or aristocrat and work in a manor house or castle--or if they did not want such a gig--they would sing in the town square or in taverns or other public places in the hope that those who enjoyed their music would reward them with a few coppers.

It is not begging. It is a time-honored tradition.

Merriam-Webster defines "beg" or "begging" thusly:
Main Entry:   beg
Pronunciation:   beg
Function:   verb
Inflected Form(s)
Etymology:   Middle English beggen
transitive senses

1 :   to ask for as a charity
2 a :   to ask earnestly for : ENTREAT   b :   to require as necessary or appropriate
3 a :   EVADE, SIDESTEP (begged the real problems) b :   to pass over or ignore by assuming to be established or settled (beg the question)
intransitive senses
1 :   to ask for alms
2 :   to ask earnestly (begged for mercy)
Wikipedia offers the following definition:
busking is the practice of performing in public places to receive donations [emphasis mine] of money. The performance is often musical, but juggling, comedy, and sometimes magic is also displayed.
Note the word "donation." A donation is a gift, or contribution, as in "voluntary contributions will be accepted with thanks." Many long-lived and well-respected institutions and services survive by voluntary contributions. I leave it to you to make your own list. It's quite educational to do so (e.g. do you go to church? Watch public television? Listen to public radio? Drop a few coins in the can beside the cash register for breast cancer research? Uh--support your local troubadour?).   

THIS should settle the matter once and for all.

Busking is most assuredly not begging.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

PennyBlack:

OK, I'll just agree to disagree. At this point, all we seem to be arguing about is semantics. As a former philosophy student myself, I tend to agree with much of Blues=Life's criticism of your logic, but who really cares?

You seem determined to classify busking as begging, but on the other hand you don't seem to condemn the practice, so it makes no sense to split hairs.

RE: Taxes -- In the US, as in the UK, the letter of the law requires all income to be reported. In practice, some types of income are rarely if ever voluntarily reported, including tips, gambling winnings, etc. In many cases, *if* a taxpayer were to report such income, he/she could also report equal or greater offsetting expenses or losses, and it is simpler (both for the individual citizen and for the authorities) not to bother at all.

"Big Brother" doesn't yet seem capable of tracking every possible source of cash-basis self-employment income, at least in the US. Is the UK so much smaller that the government can keep a closer eye on everyone's business? I would hope not.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

Sinsull,

The acoustics in the subway, between trains, can be quite magical when someone performs down there. I heard some great stuff at Columbus Circle last summer, but there were too many trains for it to have a sustained effect. The traffic cancelled out the accoustics.

Have PennyBlack and BeardedBruce met yet? They ought to hit it off like a house-afire with their persistence and logical fallacies.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM

The only thing I miss about the NY Subway is the surprise entertainment offered in the trains and on the platforms. Everything from doowop on the #1 to flamenco dancing at Roosevelt/Jackson Heights. I never saw it as begging. After a grim day and a grimmer commute I was always grateful for the moment of pleasure. In summer, I would occasionally see some very young break dancers hoping to be discovered - some amazing talent there. I always carried a few singles in my pocket and when the performance deserved it - a fiver.

I have to admit I always pass up the mimes- annoying little idiots obviously begging for attention. But how could anyone resist a piano on wheels and a concerto in the park? When I worked near Grand Central there an elderly black man who sang spirituals every morning in the tunnel between the 7 and E trains. What a great way to start the morning. And a nice break from the panhandler with an artificial leg whose sad story changed from day to day -he lost it in Viet Nam, he was run over by a train, infection, cancer - and who threatened to come back tomorrow and rob me if I didn't give him money today. That's begging.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM

PennyBlack, I taught philosophy for many years. The number of informal fallacies in your argument boggles the mind. But, since logical argument won't work, we'll just agree that this is your opinion, so you are most welcome to it. You know what they say about opinions...and you are the definitive proof of the old law.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:10 AM

Poppagator: Penny, if you insist upon characterising street musicians as beggars, so be it. You're not the only one. Now I know that you're one of the majority of passers-by who don't tip -- no big deal. I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum.

Many years ago, when I was busking full-time, I did not file a tax return (here in the UK it is a criminal offence not to declare earnings) I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum

I think you should change your name to Robin Hood. ;-) and I should be banished for having an opinion and stating it :-(    Does that make you a Fiddling Busker or Just a dishonest Beggar?

When did I either say or imply I don't "tip"? in fact I have and do as the occasion warrant give to both Beggars who either offer entertainment as an incentive to give money and those who don't - neither do I characterise street musicians as Beggars simple answered the Topic's question with a dictionary definition - If you want to work from a different dictionary fair enough.


Shambles: We agree! to disagree but there's nothing wrong with that is there?


Blues=Life: I reiterate, NOT my definitions, dictionary definitions (sources: Webster's & Concise Oxford 5th edition)- and don't forget the parenthesis (especially......)

From the definition you quote:

Of course one would also need to define entertain - in your terms at what point would your defined "Beggar" become a "Busker"?

If I understand what you imply above, I would presume if the person asking for money offers me something I don't find entertaining he would be a "Beggar" if I enjoy his offerings and find them entertaining he then becomes a "Busker" - whether an individual enjoys, or not, some form of entertainment (However technically good that form may be) must be a matter of individual choice? so what is a Beggar to one Person is a Busker to another? and so the answer to the original post must be Yes and No (of course).

Us Dance? have you never heard of the Richter scale :-)

P.B.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:28 AM

PennyBlack:
I have several problems with your definitions. First, there is the problem that you see them as being equivalents. I see them as being definitions by genus and species, in the Aristotelian method.   Your definitions were:

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk:
to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money

The genus in begging is a solicitation for money or food. The species (i.e. that which differentiates begging from any other solicitation of money or food) is "by an apparently penniless person.

The genus in busking is to play music or sing in a public place. The species is that the people who are there will give them money.

From a strict logician's point of view, even using your definitions, these are not equivalents.

Secondly, the real problem is that you got your definition of busk from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary. A quick search of the Internet tells us that:

"The new Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary gives you everything you need to learn English and pass exams!
It's bang up to date, easy to use and comes with a great CD-ROM which takes your English to another level."

In other words, it's a student dictionary. Let's look at some other, perhaps more in depth sources.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary (www.askoxford.com) defines Busk as:

busk: verb 1. play music in the street for voluntary donations.

voluntary: adjective 1 done, given, or acting of one's own free will.

Whereas beg is defined:

Beg:   • verb (begged, begging) 1 ask earnestly or humbly for something. 2 ask for food or money as charity.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines busker as:

n. 1. a person who entertains people for money in public places (as by singing or dancing)

WordNet Dictionary defines busker as:

Noun- a person who entertains people for money in public places (as by singing or dancing.)

So, if you want to keep begging when you're dancing, go right ahead. We'll try not to let you know you're busking.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM

PennyBlack is entitled to their opinion, without being called names. This is the nub of this view.

I have simply, looked at the definition of the two words - placed those definitions on the thread and stated my opinion on whether those definitions could apply to both pastimes. Which is yes?

I have looked and consider the answer to be no. But it remains a matter of opinion.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM

Penny, if you insist upon characterising street musicians as beggars, so be it. You're not the only one. Now I know that you're one of the majority of passersby who don't tip -- no big deal. I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum.

Many years ago, when I was busking full-time, I did not file a tax return. If I had gone to the trouble to file with the IRS, I would not have owed income tax because my annual income was below the threshold for taxation. It's true that I failed to pay FICA "payroll" taxes, but then again I am not credited with having made any Social Security contributions over those few years, so the loss is as much my own as the government's.

If and when I start back again as an older adult with a full-time, fully-taxed day job, I would probably not declare whatever little extra income I would collect. In any event, if I *did* feel constrained to make full disclosure -- for example, if I were conspicuous enough that I thought the government would know about my musical activities -- I'm sure that I could declare enough busking-related expenses to show a loss and, in the end, pay *less* in net taxes.

I do not believe that the tax issue has any bearing on the question of whether playing in public for tips is "begging" or a legitimate way to earn income from voluntary contributors.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM

Brucie: sorry but what are Buskers Auditioning for? I find it hard to accept that Busking is the same as going for an Interview.

The Shambles: So`lic`i`ta´tion
n. 1. The act of soliciting; earnest request; persistent asking; importunity.
2. Excitement; invitation; as, the solicitation of the senses.

Stilly River Sage: There are such things as Professional Beggars (or maybe all that do it to make a crust are?)who I'm sure also work very hard at their profession.

You seem, instead, to be trying to justify your own performances in the name of charity I said: because the money goes to charity doesn't change the fact that we are begging (all be it by proxi)

And I would politely point out that whether a busker turns in a tax return or not is none of your business Really?

Maybe I mis-read the topic? "Busking is Begging?"

Most of the answers above would be more on the topic of Are Buskers Talented, is busking a profession, do buskers work hard?

I have simply, looked at the definition of the two words - placed those definitions on the thread and stated my opinion on whether those definitions could apply to both pastimes. Which is yes?

I do not criticise either Busking or Begging nor Buskers or Beggars and just state several observations - If I upset anyone by stating my opinion on what is after all a discussion board - sorry but "that's life".

Brucie: MY understanding, if it's not yours or anyone else's Fine - I didn't comment to convert, just to add MY opinion, which is that Busking is Begging, my reason is based on the two definitions stated and nothing I have read so far in this thread has changed my mind - if that's your aim in life feel free?

and if we look to the origin of the word Beg and it's association with Lambert Begue and the Mendicant Order and maybe compare this with the music making of Hari Krashna or Salvation Army, why should anyone feel there is a stigma attached to Begging?

and if we look to Busking and the origin of the word busk coming from the French busquer which means "to Prowl"

which would you rather be associated with a charitable group or a Prowler :-)

and to pass on a quote made to me "Busking is Begging to music"

P.B.

"I'm a hard man to ignore - but well worth the effort"


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:39 AM

The following is what Penny came up with:

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money.

Looks Like the answer must be yes - but Is there anything wrong with begging - collecting "Penny for the Guy", "Trick or Treat" (maybe thats Blackmail as well?),Charity Collections, Carol Singing and more fall into the same category.


It may look to Penny as if the answer is yes but I see nothing conclusive here. My little dictonary gives SOLICIT: ask earnestly for or seek or invite (of prostitute) accost (man) for imoral purposes.

Are buskers 'soliciting', in that sense? Do solicitors, solicit? All these words must remain, largely a matter of opinion. Sometimes these opinions (or prejudices) get put into by-laws etc and are created usually by people in conventional (and respectable) professions or those weathly enough not to need a profession at all. Again these are not conclusive - just indicitive of our social divisions and the reasons why some feel they need to beg and others judge this.

Perhaps buskers, beggars, street sellers and prostitutes would write a diferent dictionary?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM

"I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours . . . ."

This do it for you?

I have auditioned for various things in my life: song writing contracts, recording contracts, teaching jobs, etc. Basically, I was doing what buskers. I wasn't begging. I was busking. Sometimes they liked my performance enough to hire (pay) me. Sometimes not.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:47 AM

Regarding ANYONE paying taxes. I would LOVE to pay the same rate of tax that Enron did.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:01 AM

I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours Blues=Life.

However I have not criticized either busking or begging.


PennyBlack, the very nature of the argument you're making is a criticism of buskers and begging. And that's a lot of strident self-righteousness in your stated view of busking--after many here have already characterized the activity as work, not begging. By insisting that your understanding is the correct one you're not endearing yourself to members of this thread. You seem, instead, to be trying to justify your own performances in the name of charity. Are they so poor as to consitute a masquerade for begging? If the answer is "no" then why presume anyone else's performance is a masquerade?

The buskers I've seen over the years have appeared talented and in the context of street performance have generally been modestly and/or moderately dressed, to suit the vagarities of working on the street with total strangers all around. They want to call attention to their music, not generate value judgements regarding the cost of their clothes and whether they "deserve" to be rewarded for their performance. I expect that this must be a very careful consideration, along with making the choice to be a street performer in addition to or instead of getting a more culturally acceptable steady job.

And I would politely point out that whether a busker turns in a tax return or not is none of your business. Do you ask the wait person in the restaurant every time you eat if they declared all of their tips? Do you ask your hairdresser if he/she declares their tips, or if perhaps s/he cuts a little hair on the side (under the table)? Then why ask if buskers turn in tax returns? That's between buskers and their own consciences and their personal relationships with the tax offices.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM

Okay, PB, but I think you are splittin' hairs over definitions here...

I play at a farm and flea market just about every Sunday. Various venders set up, sell fresh produce or collectables. Most set up 10 X 10 tents. I do the same. There is no open guitar case. No tip jar. I do not look like a street person. I play sitting on a folding chair and frequently have a harmonica player with me. On any given Sunday people will walk by and find a place to leave a couple of bucks. Why? Well, back to the social contract that you insist does not exist. If it exists in the minds of folks walking thru a farm and flea market when I am only there to provide a certain Americana ambiance, then I would suggest that a "social" contrct is indeed understood by more folks than yourself. Most folks get it. Sorry you don't. Heck, I don't even consider myself busking but the public at large does feel a responsibility to support its artists...

Like I said, sorry that you feel diferently. Maybe artists should just get daytime jobs and whenever they are playing out and someone tries to pay a gratitude for their art, stop in thre middle of the song and tell those folks to suff it...

Geeze...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM

Penny, I'm not sure you understand the difference in the definitions

Maybe not? - but I'm not sure you do either and I don't accept The Garage comment.


I don't expect to come back to my car parked on the street to find it's a had a full service without requesting it (however good the mechanic)and see a hat next to the mechanic saying "Thank you"

I also feel in a lot of cases the Busker Does give the impression of being penniless - if nothing else than the fact that they have a hat on the floor asking for money, often dress scruffy etc...

as I have read through the above many of the writers (even those who have opposed the Buskers begging theory) have made comments like "but it depends how well they play" etc. who decides that?

what it boils down to is they are there asking for money. As for a "social contract" - male cow excreta! Just excuses for Buskers worrying about the stigma that has become associated with the term "Begging"

I also haven't seen many Buskers coming forward stating that they make Tax returns? and although this wouldn't change my opinion that Busking is begging, it would convince me that Buskers actually believed they were doing a job of work and not just doing what they enjoyed doing and solicited money from passers by for doing so.

I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours Blues=Life.

However I have not criticized either busking or begging.

I am Happy to state that we go busking/Begging every week to raise money for charity - because the money goes to charity doesn't change the fact that we are begging, because the audience appears to enjoy what we do doesn't change the fact we're begging, we have no contract, verbal written or Social we do what we enjoy doing and people throw money in a bucket we beg them to give us that money - and thank everyone of them for doing so.

PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 08:06 PM

Penny, I'm not sure you understand the difference in the definitions.

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money

You equated these two. How about: "To work in a garage fixing cars so that the people who are there will give money." The only diffence here is the occupation and the location. Is this begging? No, this is working.
How about "To work in a public place fixing cars so that the people who are there will give money." I've paid mechanics to fix my dead at the side of the road car, while it was still at the side of the road. Is this begging? Once again, no, this is working, only here the only difference is the occupation.
There is a certain social contract inherent in busking. To play on the street, with an open guitar case (even if seeded with a few bucks) is NOT begging. There is an invitation to contribute if you like the music, and to walk if you don't.
Finally, it's not begging if for no other reason that a person who owns a guitar hardly qualifies as "an apparently penniless person."
So let's not only give the buskers a break, let's kick in some cash.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM

How anyone can mistake busking for begging is beyond me. That would make every salesman/woman who does a 'cold call' a beggar. Sometimes I beg to differ, but this time I busk to differ.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM

Previous "guest": I have never hidden behind my name here and my address and full name have appeared more than once. You have the damned rudeness to insult people you know nothing about without even giving yourself a name which can be identified with other posts.
On the subject of the law, it's authority on whether an activity is begging or not is pretty questionable anyway. In reality, busking is either restricted or not restricted by a complicated array of different laws. Licensed pitches exist in very few places and they are very rarely profitable. That is the case in the UK, in Germany and in most other European countries. I will let our American colleagues speak for themselves.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Another stupid alias
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM

No Name? That is bloody rich on a board where almost everybody hides behind aliases.

By the way, unless you are busking on a licensed pitch then you are begging - thats the law.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM

Bobert is right of course. I just admire his good mannered and well reasoned reply to the "Guest 06/08/04 at 1042", who by contrast had no manners, no reason and no name.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 08:34 AM

I beg to differ, GUEST!

As I have pointed out, artists are entitled to be compensated (Paid, if you will) for their many years of training. But beyond that...

...there is an unspoken contract involved in busking that both tne artist and the listener understand. Buskers don't actively appraoch the listener as do beggers but set up in areas where the listener makes the active decsion to take the time to atop, listen and appreciate. It is the listener who is actively decides wheteher or not to become involved in the appreciation of the art that the busker, much less actively is offering. It almost like a gallery or museum, but with less overhead, that is open to the public and has a donation box. And, as a museum or gallery, no one is going to arrest you or confront you should you choose to enjoy the art and not pay but most people do have a feeling that, as they have enjoyed the work that has gone into the art, they will make a small donation.

Busking is very much the same. Unlike begging, there is no unlying "guilt" that is being used to extort money from folks. Buskers don't put up sign that say, "Starving Vet" 'er "Homeless" 'er anything like that. If they did, then, yes, that would be begging, inspite of the music. But they don't.

I'm stickin with, "NO"!!!....

BObert


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

YES!!!


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Shambles - tell me about it! There's been so much said and done no wonder we're all confused but letters are still going out and MPs locally certainly recognise my handwriting.

We actually used the mandolin example in an email to DCMS and they came back with a resounding "no it would require a license" - but at least they put it in Black and White and didn't hum and ha like they have been doing.

I noticed that a lot more has been confirmed in the Q&A pages included Live transmissions not requiring a license but Video Recordings will - still wonder if Action Replays will need a license :-)

Sorry we've drifted off topic - so....

I've met some "Beggars" that have been more entertaining than "Buskers".

How many "Buskers" out there put in Tax returns?


PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

Well, begging gets a lot more annoying than music, especially if they come up to your face, or start telling you to give them more. (I was usually able to shake those ones off very quickly by explaining that I wasn't exactly well off, but sheesh.)

I've never had a problem when giving food to a beggar though. But some people have told me that they've had to be careful when accepting food because sometimes there were nasty things in the food. I guess I look trustworthy or something.

I guess giving to beggars can be considered a service to the soul and they provide the opportunity for that as their part of the deal.

But at the same time musicians are doing something valuable and trying to earn a living, beggars are mostly just sitting there and trying to make people feel guilt or pity enough to give, unless the beggars are trying to entertain as well. An important difference.

I know someone who had this beggar near where he worked demand that he give the beggar his $10 lunch money instead of just the dollar he gave... the beggar in question claimed that his car had broken down in front of the government building and he was trying to make enough money to go to another city. Guess what... that was last year and now this year the same guy's car has inexplicably "broken down" in front of the very same building.

If the begging is for a specific reason rather than pure greed on the part of the beggar, then fine. Some people really are in need. But the beggar needs to be honest about it, and not pushy or mean. And it's still different from entertaining people with a skill like music or dance or fire-breathing.

I dislike giving money to people who aren't trying at all to improve their lives, who are JUST trying to exist on the generousity and guilt of others and who do not give anything back. Maybe I'm ungenerous that way - maybe that's because I've always tried to give something back, which immediately makes it not begging.

Some beggars I knew in Toronto would be quite entertaining. Some would be pushy or mean... I gave a woman a dollar once and then didn't have any money the next week I was there, she was very pushy, following me for half a block. I also began to suspect she was using the money for drugs.

Anyway, there really is a difference between entertaining and begging, enough so that you can tell which one it is.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM

Morris dancing etc.
11 The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this
Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of —
(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or
a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a
performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a
description falling within paragraph (a).

Sorry Penny you are right and I been reading this stuff for far too long....

You could always argue that (b) would cover and exempt your amplified mandolin or PA...


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM

Looks the same here as well

PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

Just going off the quote in the last Tome I was sent from the DCMS - which appeared to be a straight print out of the Q&A web pages:-


"Morris dancing or anything similar, plus any unamplified live music that is 'integral' to the performance, will be completely exempt from licensing"


Hey but they don't always tell the truth - do they?

PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

A couple of points:

Many people are delighted to see buskers, few welcome beggers. When I vacation in Galveston, Texas, part of the fun is having a chance to busk on the sea wall. Last year a car pulled to the curb and a family piled out and took my picture. The parents said that their child had been disappointed with Galveston because she hadn't seen any street performers, and I had "made their day."

My accountant assures me that, for tax purposes, I can write off the expenses of my vacation if I report even a few bucks made busking.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:07 PM

Our Voice has (and still is) raised against some of the changes and stupidity of some of the changes likewise the lame excuses for exemptions etc... e.g. our local Morris team will be able to dance and the musicians play for them - but let the mandolin player us a 5watt amp to raise his instrument so it can be heard alongside a bass drum and a license will be required. But we shall see what we shall see, and the fight can go on!

Not sure that the music for Morris is required to be non-amplified in order to be exempt - just that it is integral to the dancing. It appears to be a problem to play the same music - without the dancing, however, as that would require it to be licensed....


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM

Of course the areas that don't issue a "license" to busk and don't have a bye-law to stop busking tend to have either a policy of Police Intervention on Obstruction or Noise pollution grounds or in some cases actually promote busking. Other problems arise (especially in our case) when the collecting is for charity and not personal gain when a collecting licence is required in all cases.

At present we have to make two applications (even 3in some cases)- 1 to collect for charity, 2 Permission to use the public highway for the collection (or permission from the landowner when in vacant shop doorway, or generally "off Street") and if we sell the badges/Roses (as a minimum donation is requested) A street trading license.

Under the "new" licensing guide lines "busking" in a public place will require a entertainment license which "should be held by the local council" so may not be a problem.

Our Voice has (and still is) raised against some of the changes and stupidity of some of the changes likewise the lame excuses for exemptions etc... e.g. our local Morris team will be able to dance and the musicians play for them - but let the mandolin player us a 5watt amp to raise his instrument so it can be heard alongside a bass drum and a license will be required. But we shall see what we shall see, and the fight can go on!

Re. Begging or not? the above entries were dictionary definitions and not mine;-) and as I said what's wrong with begging - an age old tradition and the base for many traditional songs. Maybe if people have to be educated to believe it's not begging work should be done on changing the dictionary definition to:

Busking:
The Art of obtaining money for entertaining in a Public Place.


then again a rose by any name would smell as sweet.


PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM

And actually calling it begging may undo centuries of tradition and attempts at educating people that it isn't begging, it's earning money for entertaining people in a public place.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 08:51 AM

UK changes in PEL laws will not make "Busking" illegal - they will just mean it will require a license (which street performances/collections require now, in most areas we've come across)

The present licenses (where they occur in the UK) are not the current Public Entertainment Licence, which is to go. These are local ones, most probably by-laws or ones issued for private property, like the London Underground.

However, the new law has the effect of making anyplace subject to the regulated entertainment permission requiring the new Premises Licence.
No one really knows how this is going to work - or indeed even if it can. I am sure that it will only make busking more complicated legally than it already is.

While it may be true that 'begging' may not appear to be classed as regulated entertainment. Calling one's music making 'begging' may clear you for the Licensing Act 2003 but will take you into yet more legislation.....


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM

.. but wait! if you call it begging, does that mean you won't need a licence?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:53 AM

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money


Looks Like the answer must be yes - but Is there anything wrong with begging - collecting "Penny for the Guy", "Trick or Treat" (maybe thats Blackmail as well?),Charity Collections, Carol Singing and more fall into the same category.

UK changes in PEL laws will not make "Busking" illegal - they will just mean it will require a license (which street performances/collections require now, in most areas we've come across)


PB


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