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Busking is begging?

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Don Firth 09 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM
PoppaGator 09 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,skyesidhe 09 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM
PennyBlack 09 Aug 04 - 09:04 PM
jets 09 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM
reggie miles 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM
Peace 11 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,Guest; tony 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,reggie miles 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM
The Shambles 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
Deckman 12 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM
The Shambles 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 AM
The Shambles 22 Aug 04 - 05:53 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM
Terry K 23 Aug 04 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Jacqued 23 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM
GUEST 24 Aug 04 - 01:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 04 - 06:29 AM
alanabit 24 Aug 04 - 07:36 AM
PoppaGator 24 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM
PennyBlack 24 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM
English Jon 25 Aug 04 - 08:22 AM
Grateful Ted 25 Aug 04 - 08:25 AM
matai 25 Aug 04 - 08:56 AM
Nathan in Texas 19 Sep 04 - 02:52 PM
alanabit 20 Sep 04 - 02:20 AM
Teresa 20 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM
GUEST 20 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 04 - 11:52 PM
alanabit 21 Sep 04 - 02:39 AM
Teresa 21 Sep 04 - 03:01 AM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Sep 04 - 05:04 AM
Don Firth 21 Sep 04 - 12:43 PM
Don Firth 21 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM
GUEST 22 Sep 04 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,cracker 15 Feb 05 - 11:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM
John C. 15 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,sancho 30 Mar 05 - 11:40 PM
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LadyJean 31 Mar 05 - 12:41 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 05 - 12:57 AM
mandoleer 31 Mar 05 - 09:39 AM
alanabit 31 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:30 PM

If you are offering a service (singing, juggling, making balloon animals, etc.), displaying a sign saying "Voluntary contributions accepted," is not begging. I've been to many concerts in rented halls or churches where there was no admission charge, but on the program there was note that said "voluntary contributions to cover our expenses* will be appreciated" or words to that effect. I do not regard that as "begging." And busking is essentially the same thing, but on a smaller scale.

After all, if you come into the hall voluntarily or if you stop voluntarily to listen to the busker, you are participating in an exchange. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. You can choose to receive the service, or not. If you choose to receive the service, it's quite legitimate for the person offering the service to expect compensation. If you don't want the service, don't go into the hall, or just walk on by. Offering goods or services and expecting compensation for it is not begging. It's commerce.

Begging is asking for alms and offering nothing in return except a pathetic expression and tone of voice (and perhaps a good feeling tinged a bit with superiority and/or pity). You should hear what Utah Phillips has to say about the kids who hang around in front of the Mini-Mart, accost people coming out, and beg for "spare change." First, he says, "There is no such thing as spare change," then he goes on to say quite a lot.

To put it even more strongly, suppose someone had a card table set up displaying home-made jewelry. If you stopped, looked over the wares offered, and wanted, say, a bracelet, it is certainly reasonable and expected that you should pay the craftsperson for it (and quite probably, be asked for a specific amount). Goods (e.g., the bracelet)and services (the busker's entertainment) are generally offered with the quite legitimate expectation of compensation from those who chose to participate in the exchange.

Don Firth

*And "expenses" often covered the fee paid to the performer or performers.

P. S.: Incidentally, I have no particular personal ax to grind here. I have never gone busking, and I don't particularly intend to. But if I did, I would do so without shame and without feeling that I was "begging."


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

I'm gratified to see Don's note that

... "busking" is a relatively modern term (chiefly British)...

I never encountered the word (in the US) until relatively recently, and have begun to wonder how I missed learning it. Now I know -- it's chiefly British!

In fact, back when I was *doing* it, I had never heard the word "busking." As far as I was concerned, what I was doing was "streetsinging." Of course, this term would not apply to non-singing instrumental performers, so "busking" becomes a very useful word.

Don's link to "BuskPittsburgh" was quite enlightening. I never had to bother with permits back in the early 70s, and occasionally (but rarely) was "asked" to move along by police. Of course, I picked my spots pretty carefully, usually confining myself to areas where the practice was already well-established. Applying for permission, especially when the permit specifies a particular limited time-frame as well as place (as seems to be the current situation in the NYC subway system), seems somewhat alien to my former lifestyle. Ah, for the good old days!


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,skyesidhe
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 07:24 PM

Since this question seemed to be oriented as to whether or not it's generally considered begging in the UK in specific...well, as far as I've seen it is actually more accepted in the UK and Ireland than here in the US. I have seen many buskers in both London and around the entire countries of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well as have busked myself in Galway. I do have to say though, that there is definately a quality line. Most buskers there are of a pretty high quality because the competition is pretty heated. So...nope it's not begging, but there is an expectance of quality..that's my general assesment.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:04 PM

The Shambles - I was going to say that!

With reference to Bobert's comments re. Car boots sales etc. where he doesn't ask or imply he would like a donation, I would agree that he is neither Busking or Begging just enjoying music Al Fresco and sharing that with others at the event, by accepting money from some passers-by would not change that, as long further visits were done for the same reason and not in the hope of such "tips".

There does appear to be a different approach to "Busking" in the USA compared with the UK where as mentioned in other threads, due to changes in the licensing laws, it will/may fall foul of requiring a license (however Begging won't - ummm). But where else, other than the UK, would people be prosecuted for Singing "Happy Birthday to You". Maybe we should all move to "The Land of The Free"

P.B.

Still think it's a shame there's such a stigma attached to begging considering it's origins and the amount of courage it must take in some cases to ask for such help.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: jets
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM

I have been busking for at least 10 yrs.Never have I thought or felt that I was begging. Yes people put money in my open case but they often say thank you for makinging there day more pleasant and memorable. How about the hugs and the kiss on the cheek by the young women . Why did the owner of the jewelry store pay me to play in front of his store if he thought I was begging?
For the past year I have been receiving pay from the owner of an Italian resturant (pizza etc}to play in his store . He pays me and I also have an open case for donations. Is this still begging? I thinkk not. In the end it matters not for I enjoy doing it very much.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: reggie miles
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

No busking is not begging.

Long ago when the practice of busking began entertainment wasn't as easily found as it is in our very electronically connected world today. Now, many of us on the planet can enjoy a vast array of entertainment choices. With only the push of a button we are bombarded with entertainment overload. Rival global conglomerates and their sponsors vie for our attention in hopes of gaining increased product market share and to ensure product loyalty. One simple example of this is the lengths that some companies will go to follow the browsing habits of those who frequent the web with software programs that spy on these patterns. The sophistication of advertising online via pop-up ads, spybots and spam has grown out of control. Is it any wonder that in our very commercial world that some might try to malign busking and liken it to begging? Unless major businesses are willing to back such activities with some kind of new reality TV show, sitcom, world tour, or twist it into some kind of venue whereby they can turn a profit from the venture for themselves they will forever continue to equate it as less than the mass produced varieties that they peddle. I, for one, don't agree with that point of view. I'm glad to read here that so many of you hold busking in such high regard.

If I don't see ya in the future, I'll saw ya in the pasture.

Or perhaps on some street corner near you.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

You can call a sheep a dog, but that won't make it bark. Busking is NOT begging. IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Guest; tony
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM

My busking experiences are in the past, and these things change quite quickly - but I suspect that such a list would be of limited use.

If you intend to work outside of theatres, contracts, agents, etc., you fall into an uncontrolled category - you have freedom, but relinquish certain rights.

You are challenging both written laws - which have frozen many past attitudes to travelling performers (and may be interpreted more or less sympathetically by contemporary officers) -and also the unwritten ones - the attitudes of the public, other people working on the street, etc.

In countries with less structured welfare systems, many poor people 'work' the streets in various ways. You may have to consider these people more than the police - local performers who claim a performance pitch; street vendors seeing you strip money from the crowd; even protection rackets, who assume (rightly) that you may hand a certain amount over if threatened - it isn't only the government that taxes you.

You have to deal with these people directly, without the protection of the law. You certainly have human rights, although once out of your native land they can be somewhat different from your expectations - but you are also vulnerable to laws specifically enacted to keep the solid citizens of the community satisfied.

There is usually no law against juggling in a public place if you are not obviously dangerous (like juggling a machete, a torch and a bowling ball on a six foot unicycle). Still, there are probably several laws that may affect you, each designed to control different activities in the street.

For example, in the UK you could be arrested (or at least cautioned and moved on) by reference to laws on "obstruction" - if the crowd you draw blocks the footpath and people have to step into traffic to get past; for "causing a public nuisance" (which necessitates the police receiving a complaint from a member of the public, who may be a shopkeeper whose window is blocked, or someone who doesn't like your amplified music); "begging" is illegal in most places - there's nothing to prevent people making a gift of money to you, but you must not ask. To illustrate this, and the way laws may be interpreted, I offer this example.

A friend is a chalk artist [ed: Hadass Tamir]. She leaves a box for people who like her work to throw money into. Because she (unlike performers) has her attention on the ground, she chalks "Thank-you" in the local language, to save interrupting the flow of her work each time a coin lands in the box. One time I saw a policewoman standing over her in Cardiff. I went over to negotiate for her, thinking she was about to be moved on. "It's nice work, and people like it," said the officer, "but she must not ask for money." I protested that she just worked quietly and demanded nothing. "Yes, but that word 'Thank-you' is asking people to put money in the box." I insisted that it was just to thank them if they did. She was adamant, however, that she didn't object to two square metres of pavement being covered in drawing, but that offensive "begging" word had to be rubbed out. I scuffed it out with my shoe and she went away, quite satisfied that the law was now being respected.

No wonder I don't really understand the law - when thank-you means please! (And this was in my own country, in my native language.) It's an example of a police response which was both sympathetic (not looking for trouble) and yet pedantic (not simply turning a blind eye). Whether laws are activated against you will often depend on your own attitudes to other people, both in and out of uniform.

If you intend to travel by juggling, you could find yourself labelled as a "vagrant". This is a wide-based definition used to discourage travelling without visible means of support, or an address, etc., and could be used against someone without the means to prove they are a "tourist" and not working illegally. This is the definition of "Rogues and Vagabonds" from the Vagrancy Act in 1713:

"All Fencers, Bearwards, common players of Interludes, Minstrells, Juglers, all persons pretending to be Gipsies or Wand'ring in the Habit or Form of counterfeit Egyptians or pretending to have skill in Physiognomy, Palmestry or like crafty Science or pretending to sell Fortunes or like phantastical imaginations or using any Subtle Craft or unlawful Game or Plays..."

...and these people could be whipped, set to hard labour or transported. It is probable that "Juglers" here means conjurors, but you can see how this law might catch you in its net. In fact, the law which is in use in England at the moment is the Vagrancy Act of 1824, originally introduced to deal with the problem of rootless ex-soldiers discharged after the Napoleonic Wars. It had fallen into disuse, but has recently been re-activated to try to sweep homeless people from the streets of central London.

I noticed, in the Neil Stammer interview, the casual use of the phrase "jugglers are like gypsies." There is the romantic notion of the free Bohemian life-style, the mysterious and magical image you may wish to evoke in the public - the carefree gypsy. Unfortunately, most of the written laws surrounding "gypsies" are extremely punitive.

The issue here is not whether you are a "Gypsy" racially - this is an area as sensitive as discussing the distinctions between Jews as a race and as a religious group - but whether you may be treated as one. This is great if you meet people in their romantic mood: one face of the settled population greets the entertainer, the wayward artist, romanticizing the life outside the "normal" laws and ethics of society, the wild musicians who captivated the cafe society, the hint of mystery and fortune telling and unknown powers.

Yet it is worth remembering the other face, and the fact that the "gypsies", or more properly "Rom", have suffered terrible persecution in the course of their history. "The Nazis had a law of genocide against Jews and Gypsies for about eight years; we (in Britain) had one for Gypsies for two and a half centuries; in the 15th and 16th centuries hundreds of Gypsies were hanged in England solely on account of their race" (Thomas Acton, "True Gypsies - Myth or Reality", New Society 6June 1974).

This is tragic history, but it doesn't affect you, right? Wrong. Like "Bohemian", the term "Gypsy" is sufficiently vague to cover anyone who deviates from society's norm of fixed abode. "For several centuries the mere fact of being a "Bohemian" in France was sufficient to be sent to the galleys.... Who exactly were the individuals targeted by this expulsion policy? .... in five centuries that term was never defined." (Jean-Pierre Liegois, Gypsies, 1986 -tr. from "Tsiganes", 1983)

I am not going to attempt to disperse the clouds of disinformation surrounding the Rom. The lack of written records, and the complex multiplicity underlying that one simple word "Gypsy" take us beyond this article. I have found some material that suggests that the Rom may have brought juggling from India to Europe - but that is the seed of another article.

Now that law-makers are cautious about being seen to enact racist laws, and ethnic groups demand rights to continue with traditional modes of life, it has become important to deny that there is one easily distinguished group (who might have rights); so when Travellers actually try to park anywhere they find that they tend to be lumped together by settled citizens and their laws.

Here is a current British law, defining "Gypsies" as "...persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such." (UK Caravan Sites Act of 1986, Section 16)

This is a huge, complicated and fascinating subject. Suffice it to say that European countries have harsh laws aimed at Travellers of all kinds. There has always been a mixture of people travelling - merchants, refugees, disbanded armies, displaced people, economic migrants, pilgrims, etc - and laws invented to control them. You don't have to be part of an ethnic minority to find out that the resistance of populations to "gypsies" hasn't changed much. New Age Travellers using their initiative to avoid homelessness or poverty by adopting this lifestyle can still draw the negative responses that "Gypsies" have often endured. "Why don't you get a proper job?" is one of the mildest.

So the public may love you or hate you - either way, you are an ambassador for all the other street-workers - ideally you offer a good show, avoid offensive language, keep props and costumes as clean as possible, don't endanger the public and leave no mess behind you. You may prefer to be more challenging and "anarchic" (in the negative sense), but remember that each time you do that you re-confirm to the powers-that-be that their laws are valid, and you make it harder for the next performer. All street performing is testing a frontier, and setting new limits.

Don't forget that a written guide not only means a lot of people will seek out the same place at the same season (can you stand the competition?) but that such lists may also be read by police departments, neo-fascist vigilantes or outraged citizens. It might be useful to centralize information on festivals that hire performers, but then you are effectively back into show-biz and agents, etc.

There are good reasons why information about informal performing is circulated by word of mouth - whether you think of that as some sort of exclusive freemasonry or underground movement is up to you. So long as "being able to do the cascade" is considered sufficient to be recognized as part of "our tribe", then we need to be sure that people respect some unwritten rules of behaviour, as well as act cautiously when testing the laws of the land (and not provoke them into being revived and enforced) - and discourage abuse of such information.

Have Fun, Tony


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM

Wow! Tony, thanks for the well stated insight.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

It rather reinforces the idea that whether buskers are generally viewed as beggars - is up to buskers. How the authorities treat buskers is probably again largely up to how buskers respond to that treatment, no matter how heavy-handed this may be.

If you always behave like a skilled-professional - chances are that you and hopefully every other busker will eventually be viewed as that. The distinction between begging and busking, which is a very narrow one in some people's eyes - will become wider and a lot clearer.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 12:53 PM

You might find this interesting: I've been re-reading a series of books published by Time/Life, on the history of WW2. Within the book titled "The Battle of Britain," I came across the term "buskers." The reference was used in the description of rigors of the Londoners as they sought safety in the underground subways during the bombings. I quote: "Many of the stations' residents arranged their own amusments. Often a community sing would be going on. And there were always plenty of BUSKERS around - the entertainers who in peacetime performed on the street for people standing in queus at theaters and cinemas. They performed in just as lively a fashion for their new audiences in the underground. At Aldwych, in the center of the theater district, such famous stars as Laurence Olivier, Vivien Leigh and Ivor Novello would come down after their evening performances and present impromptu songs and sketches."   

I hope this adds to the discussion. Bob


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:51 AM

The long-running UK arts TV programme The South Bank Show starts a new series tonight Sunday 22 August 2004. It is devoted to profiles of 4 London buskers.

The Radio Times preview contains the following:

The only good quote comes from one daft musician: "Busking and begging are completly different things. You can't even put them in the same sentence." But you just did!

The writer here does seem to be trying to make a clever point here but has chosen to miss the point that if this statement was not made in response to a specific question from those making the film - it was a question that the makers would have wished to examine. The fact that the musician put busking and begging in the same sentance, to possibly defend one, simply reflects this.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 05:53 AM

See also

What compels a musician to busk?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM

The approved City of Sydney Busking Policy 2001 states "Busking is a valid means for people to make a living" and subsequent references to that message.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:30 AM

The London tube thing should not be confused with the genuine buskers (some good, some bad, some in between) who play in the corridors.

The last time (of several times) I experienced the guys on the train itself, it was tantamount to them demanding money with menaces, to "musical" accompaniment. No attempt to entertain, every attempt to intimidate the captive audience - there were three bottlers in addition to the "musician". There was really no option for the average person to do anything other than pay up.

Not busking, not begging, just theft.

I remarked to myself at how the traditions of busking in the London tube had been almost instantly transformed by the behaviour of these people, and how we simply allow people to change our traditions, to the detriment of genuine buskers, without any apparent sanction.

Terry


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Jacqued
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 02:33 PM

Catters might wish to hear what Tom Lewis says about busking, "The Busker" on his CD "Tinker Tailor Soldier Singer".   Different slant - and a very good song.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:09 AM

They upstruck the narrow streets and their piss filled sewers.

Their legs, intruments, sleeping bags and animals are obstructions to real wolkers on their way to or from work.

If EVERyONE gave them NOTHING.....they would quickly move to richer grounds ... since the are mercenaries and not lovests ... they are small desperate problems best swept into the dustbins (analysis based on Marion's Busking Tour and consumate health concersn) perhaps they could find a more lucrative role as "village idiots."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 06:29 AM

Well thought out Gargoyle,

Which means that if people stop giving to them, the only ones out there will be the best musos? More likely, we will just end up with the worst musos who think their shit smells of roses, and who will not listen to anybody tell them just how lousy they are - and that will be an improvement?

I left my Village - too much competition...
Robin


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:36 AM

One should not really respond to flamers. However, I must say Gargoyle, that if anyone doubts the unassailability the position of the village idiot of Mudcat, I shall refer them to your post on this thread.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM

Nice going, Gargoyle.   ;(

Perhaps this marks the end of this thread. See y'all next time someone starts another discussion of street music.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM

Now those people who sell "The Big Issue" are they Beggars or Street Vendors?


sorry - I'm Ducking - I didn't mean it.

In fact I would have deleted it if I hadn't already pressed the Submit Message Button.

PB


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: English Jon
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:22 AM

Well, it seems that anyone who uses their skills to entertain is running a self contained business - people don't have to pay to hear the performance, it rather depends on the personal integrity of those who stand for a while and listen.


so - a busker is an independant business owner using his or her own skills to generate income, rather than complacently waiting for a pay check from someone else who can be bothered to set up a revenue generating service.

Arguably, the real parasites are employees who feel that they "deserve a job"

discuss!

EJ


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Grateful Ted
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:25 AM

If a beggar sings at you for money, does that make him a busker? sorry,,, I'll get my coat..........


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: matai
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:56 AM

I did most of my busking in the '80s in a covered in Market Place. I was paid $30 and expected to open my case for the rest. It was usually for three hours over the lunchtime and often I'd come away with quite substantial amounts of cash. It was the only job I had then because I was a solo mother of three small children. It contributed excellently to the house-keeping budget. Occasionally some bloke would put in $20 and expect me to go out to dinner with him afterwards so having children to go home to was the perfect excuse not to.
Here in Auckland we also had an old guy who played his guitar open, no chords and mumbled his songs. Someone did a television programme about him and he became quite the celebrity. He tidied himself up but the music was always the same. We like that sort of thing here in NZ. It is part of our down-under eccentricity.
There are a lot of Asians and Polynesians here so our street music is quite eclectic. I have noticed of late that some areas where people used to busk have been cleared out. I suspect this is the corporate influence. I've always thought Mall would be great for buskers but I never see any in them. A pity really.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 02:52 PM

Ran across this relevant(?) quote today:

"Let a short Act of Parliment be passed, placing all street musicians outside the protection of the law, so that any citizen may assail them with stones, sticks, knives, pistols, or bombs without incurring any penalties." - George Bernard Shaw


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:20 AM

That just goes to prove that even a man as brilliant and humane as Bernard Shaw was capable of writing stupid sentences.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM

Well, it really depends where you are.

The San Francisco Bay Area is very busker-friendly, and I did some playing there in the subways.

Now I live in Las vegas, which is even now "cleaning" up fremont street, clearing away the street vendors, etc. so I don't get the impression the gambling industry likes the street vendors and buskers much.

T


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 08:57 AM

Las Vegas lives on pumping money out of people without giving thema physical obect to take home - just a good feeling, the sort of thing that a good street muso gives too. The Big boys must be afraid about the little guys stealing their profits - times really must be getting hard.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:28 PM

Yes, it is begging but does that matter. I have never seen a "busker" with a sign that said "no donations please.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM

If you don't like music, you don't have a soul, so you can only see buskers as beggars.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 11:52 PM

Hmm?


Shambles, TroopOFuools, and Marion....are all the same person....posting under different personae?



They bucket a quid - go to the local internet cafe - after a cheap double cheese-burger-with-bacon....and being posting to dead threads.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 02:39 AM

To the previous nameless creep, I can only say that you have probably never seen one of the hundreds of talented and hard working people who entertain crowds of hundreds outdoors for a tiny portion of what they would be paid for working indoors. So until you acquire a name, some knowledge and some manners, may I advise you to SHUT THE FUCK UP!


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Teresa
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 03:01 AM

Interesting thought, robin.

I think busking and other street art are a way to bring people together. I've met some neat friends that way, both as a busker and as part of the audience.

T


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:04 AM

You are right Teresa, you elaborated on what I said.

Obviously The Nonny Mouse ASS-U-MEd I was talking to it instead of elucidating one of my regular profundities to all the rest of you.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 12:43 PM

Some folks approach every discussion with an open mouth. It's pretty obvious that they don't read previous posts before they jump in. Above, I posted a link. I'll post it again: Clicky! Not that I expect the same shoot-from-the-lip folks to actually read it, so I'll cut-and-paste a crucial portion of it here:
A. Busking is a centuries-old tradition.

Busking, or street performing, is a centuries-old tradition of entertainers performing for tips in public areas. In medieval Europe, local merchants would invite entertainers to their storefronts, plazas and public squares to attract pedestrians and increase business.

The roots of the American busking tradition lie in the numerous circuses that once migrated from coast to coast. Barnstorming from town to town, circus performers adjusted their comic, sword swallowing, acrobatic and juggling talents for street corners and soon became a mainstay in American street culture.

B. Benefits to Society

Street performers attract the public into an area and encourage them to browse from performer to store to restaurant and back to performer. This creates a mutually beneficial commercial environment for the stores, performers and the public.

Street performers cost the city and stores nothing and attract large crowds of people who are introduced to the other establishments during their visits to see the performers. The public benefits because it is exposed to a variety of quality entertainment for a minimum of expense and they can feel a part of the process of supporting the arts.

There is also a benefit which can't be gauged in terms of dollars and cents. Performers encourage people to know each other and to be connected

2. Legal Aspects

A. Busking is a constitutional right.

Federal court cases have given street performances First Amendment protection since Goldstein v. Town of Nantucket, 477F. Supp., 606 (1979). There are many court cases where activities on sidewalks, streets, parks, subway platforms, bus stations, and airports were determined to be First Amendment forums.
Then it goes on to cite various legal aspects of busking around the world.

The medieval troubadours and minstrels who wandered Europe spreading many of the older songs and ballads that we sing now (those who do sing traditional songs and ballads, that is) were doing what we now call "busking." It's an ancient, time-honored tradition. To call it merely "begging" shows a lack of a sense of history and culture.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:50 PM

Furthermore. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 04 - 10:47 AM

Don,

Thanks for that link. I used to play with Rob Goldstein 30 years ago around NYC. Any 'catter out there know where he is?

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,cracker
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:03 AM

In reply to this discussion I would like to say that here in the UK Busking and begging are legally two different things.

How do I know this?

More than 25 years ago a street musician in Bolton Lancashire, was taken to court charged with begging, The magistrate through the case out stating that musicians had made their living in this way for centuries and he was upholding a noble tradition. The local TV news carried the story. "Busking is not begging FACT."

The police in the UK know they can not bring this charge.

On a similar note, I notice that there is talk that legal aid is to be introduced in the UK for slander and lible (spelling?) cases.

If this was to come about, I would certainly file a claim against anyone who said I was a begger.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

I know a number of UK professional acts who travel long distances to do a small folk club gig, for a very low fee, and boost their earnings by busking locally before coming on to the club. Thus the locals get a flavour of the music available at said club, and the acts plug the gig, and often are followed by people who want to hear more. Some of those become regular attenders. If people choose to drop money in an open guitar case, that is called donation, as no arms are being twisted.

Two services rendered for no extra charge.
I wouldn't call that begging.

Local councils have recognised busking as a legitimate art form, and license pitches for the purpose, so I don't think they call it begging either.

As for the guys on the train, they are not busking, but demanding money with thinly disguised menaces. If seen by British Transport Police, they might conceivably be subject to arrest and prosecution.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: John C.
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:40 PM

I have to say that I have many treasured memories of buskers and, generally speaking, they have enhanced my life.
Here in Manchester, where I live, they tend to be a feature of the city centre on a Saturday afternoon - and there have been some amazing ones over the years: a one man blues band (OK, my mate Rob), several Irish fiddlers, several bagpipers, several singer/guitarists, a group playing Balkan music, another group of Hungarian gypsy musicians and an extraordinary bloke who had a home-made pram contraption with dancing dollys and and a cunningly concealed tape deck for musical accompaniment and, most recently, an African man with one of those stringed instruments made from some sort of gourd - all amazing, all deserving of my monetary contributions and very little to do with begging.
On my occasional trips to foreign parts I have encountered other extra-mural musical talents: a violinist playing Mozart in the centre of Warsaw (whose music made me cry) and, in the same city, a man and a woman playing what may have been (I don't speak Polish) protest songs. In Athens I was on my way to work on the Metro when a man and a boy (Albanians?)jumped on amd began to play fantasic music on accordian and drum - I was so stunned by their brilliance that they had moved on to another carriage before I could give them any money!
In Bangkok I have a memory of an old man sitting on the pavement playing some weird instrument made of bamboo and in Bulgaria a fiddler produced eerie imitations of bird songs on his instrument and later in the evening playing Strauss waltzes with his mate on the accordian.
Buskers are an essential part of life's rich tapestry - long may they continue!!


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,sancho
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 11:40 PM

I play on the street in Spokane Washington. I paid $20 for a state master business licence and another $60 for a City license. There is a flute player here named Clarence who does the same thing. I am not a beggar. I pay taxes on the little profit I make. When someone tells me to get a job I tell them this is my job and don't they wish they could be their own boss. My business license also allows me to sell my cd's. I also play at Renaissance Festivals for tips and don't see much difference between the two. I admit I don't like when people just set down a hat and mumble into a pan pipe without paying to do it legal but if they're good it's forgiveable. Most of the greatest blues artists in history started off playing in downtown Chicago for tips, and they were not beggars. We work hard to learn a trade, it just happens to be one we love, and that is not begging.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:23 AM

Like any legitamate county "merchant" in addition to the licscence (to steal) you MUST also make (quarterly/yearly) a report of you earnings and render back to the state that which made your gig possible (approx %7.25) to cover cleaning, building, maintaining, policing your little nitch of nervana.



Register, pay all taxes, do not run-afowl of local ordances such as spitting and applifiers.....



Than you dear amigo SANCHO (Sancho - slang for a gigilo) should continue to stay FAR FAR north of the USA's southern border....and more intence scrutiny by La Migra.



Sincerely,


Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: LadyJean
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:41 AM

Last summer there was a fellow playing bluegrass banjo down on Pittsburgh's Strip District. He attracted a fiddler, and then a mandolin player, and soon enough there was a whole, impromptu bluegrass band playing on one corner. They had a fiddle case out for tips, and I gave them money, because there just isn't anything much nicer than bluegrass on a summer morning. It was all I could do to keep from dancing. I expect all of them had straight jobs, and they used the money for beers at one of the strip district's bars. I hope they'll be back this year. I need some good bluegrass right now.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:57 AM

IF...................


...........

Thee and me were on a scene

Would you let me hold your body close - nibble a nipple and dance obscene/?

Would our sweat have time to mingle and dripple to the wax dusted floor before handcuffs took up off to a county 4x4?




Hey little MudKitty what county you looking to go a little revenue raising in this coming May?


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: mandoleer
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:39 AM

One more here that doesn't think busking is begging. I've busked variously - with a youth wind band collecting for itself, as part of a group collecting for a hospital charity, as part of a tenor horn and kazoo duo, and I've more than once held the pitch for a frozen busker who needed to warm up (all cash to the busker), and played duets with a busker - and never thought of it as begging. I've even busked by accident when someone saw a recorder in my pocket and asked for a tune. I put down my tankard and obliged. The money thay ended up in the tankard more than paid for the little drop of beer that had to be thrown out...


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM

Joe, the ignorant, spiteful drivel is what we have come to expect from Gargoyle here, and in the name of freedom of speech, I guess it has to stay up.
The (anonymous) poster before mandoleer has crossed another line altogether, and I would politely request you to remove it. There is no way one can interpret it as other than an inflamatory comment, with no attempt at entering a discussion at all. I don't want to see that stuff in its usual environment either - I am referring to toilet walls of course.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:17 PM

Of course busking is not begging, but I always liked the idea of it being part of the "underground economy" ~ that is, I detest the idea of paying permit fees or, worse yet, taxes.

If you do have to pay taxes as a busker, it should be in the form of income tax, where you're be able to deduct ALL your expenses (strings, reeds, etc. ~ if not instruments! ~ plus meals while out in the marketplace, a clothing allowance, etc.: anything and everything). A flat fee or percentage, like imposition of a sales tax, is hardly fair.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: mandoleer
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

Instruments should be deductible but as capital items - written down in value over a period rather than being immediate deductions. Reason being, you can always sell them again. Meals less the cost of feeding at home, and special clothing (thermal long johns?) and transport to the venue are immediate expenses.


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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,CiaoBuddha.co.uk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:41 PM

If The London Underground have the audacity to charge six pounds for a ONE day travel card (in New York $21 can buy you the equivalent to last a WEEK) then I will unashamedly have the audacity and God-given right to busk ON a tube train. Then LU show a little more brassneck by "legalising" busking at certain spots where you have to be there at a certain time (surely the whole idea of being a busker is to do it at your leisure), earn next to nothing for two hours whilst all you are ACTUALLY doing is standing around being an advert for Carling lager. So you have a choice. Either do it yourself, FOR yourself. Or you promote alcoholism, binge drinking and not forgetting being anti-Islamic. Muslims are excluded from this "scheme" because their religion forbids alcohol consumption and the promotion of it.

Oops did I leave out this tiny fact?

   "I DON'T WANT MY TAX MONEY BEING USED TO KILL AND MAIM INNOCENT IRAQI COMMUNITIES AND FUND HER MAJESTIES HOLIDAYS. SO I REFUSE TO PAY ANY"                Erm, thanks God for that God-given right and , errrr      CIAO BUDDHAS   :o)   
                      www.ciaobuddha.co.uk


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