BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 21 - 04:50 PM

Isn't that what SPB is saying? Not that it's left or right but that it's compulsorily "patriotic" to virtue-signal by flag-waving, etc.
It gives me the yicks to see Irish politicians now following the British who were following the Americans and speaking with a background of a flag. I know who you are. You don't have to advertise your commitment to Ireland (or the various other countries doing this reflexively), I voted for you (or more other people voted for you than the person I voted for) and so I trust that you're representing my country.
Macron too, is doing this; perhaps it's defensive because two fascistic parties are breathing down his neck. Not to mention the militaristic galloping and symbolism of Belarus and Russia. Everywhere is looking increasingly creepily like the 1930s.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 07:39 PM

SPB - Absolutely no offence intended, but you need to expand your idea of spectrum to compass. A spectrum is a line. There's an up / down to political ideology that many folk don't notice (I didn't) until it's pointed out...

The traditional view is left / right, but that's solely a socio-economic view. You need a Y axis to that, which is Authoritarian / Libertarian. Essentially, X is "How much should we support our folk?"; Y is "How much compulsion should we apply to our folk?" Once you understand that, you understand why Stalinist Russia (extreme Authoritarian; extreme Socialism) resembles Nazi Germany (extreme Auth / actually, surprisingly, not as far Right as you probably think).

And yes, I'm being brief & I realise that some folk will read this and... react. I'm happy to explain further if anyone wants to ask. My own politics are slightly Libertarian, slightly more Socialist, for whatever that might be worth. But I'm a pragmatist at heart. I couldn't give a toss about anyone's ideals. I'd just like a world that more or less works!! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 01:19 PM

As I said, that ubiquity is the upshot of pressure from the corporation. It's noticeable that a lot of people on camera are now wearing very small metal or ceramic poppies, which are far less prominent.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 01:07 PM

Ah, fine for any individual who wants to do it. It's the ubiquity on TV that annoys me.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 08:15 AM

"Now they seem to be a compulsory virtue signal of nationalism."

Only by those who wish to see them that way, both pro and anti poppy wearers.

People in the public eye are probably under some pressure to wear them, if only to avoid a small number of people complaining about it on social media, public forums etc etc.

I bought one and was wearing it at this mornings rememberance service in town. A decent turnout.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 05:03 AM

It isn't a nationalist thing. There's been a suspicion for years that the BBC, er, "strongly encourages" everyone in front of the camera to wear one (with the occasional kerfuffle of outrage when some eminence or other appears without one). Selling poppies is a way of getting millions of people to cough up a quid each to support the Royal British Legion, the excellent Armed Forces charity that supports former members of the forces and their families who hit hard times (the state, notoriously, is lousy at showing gratitude to such folk...). As the poppies are designed with a pin to attach them, most people who buy one are probably inclined to wear it. It's a bit harsh characterising them as obedient ants. On the Beeb it could be a way of sidestepping controversy at a sensitive time of year, admittedly not a great motive for wearing one. Out and about, I'd say that the majority don't sport poppies, not in any way an indicator of non-support of the charity. The ones who do may just be trying to encourage others to think about supporting the charity. I'm not aware that anyone sees poppy-wearing as virtue-signalling, as it's such a routine sight and has been for decades. All good in my book. Personally, I will never wear one because I don't like all the militaristic pomp in the various ceremonies around this time, especially as they are fronted by the royals (who have a lot to be grateful to the "fallen" for...). I wear a European Union badge all year round. Being in the EU was a major reason why neither I, my siblings nor my son have ever had to go to war. That's my thinking around this time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 04:29 AM

Obedient ants… watching a British 'celebs' dance show last night virtually everyone was obediently sporting the performative poppies, which, in a brief childhood stay in England were something only worn by people actually mourning close relatives killed in World War I. Now they seem to be a compulsory virtue signal of nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 09:57 AM

Flag question... At one of the Armistice Day moments of silence bbc news showed, I think it was in Scotland, they ceremoniously held flags to the ground, then hoisted them at the end of the moment. Like, held the flagpoles such that the flags lay on the ground for the moment.

I thought flags should never touch the ground? One was the Union Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 05:38 AM

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/assets/usa-election-threats/nuremberg2.jpg?v=343920091121

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 05:30 AM

The record number of death threats, claim of shock troops and the arson and anti semetic posters indicate an attempt to raise the element of fear. Open right wing talk of book burnings does not help the rational side of politics. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-election-threats/

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 08:17 PM

...And your evidence for this 95% is...?

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 04:11 PM

Good for you. Steve Bannon claims he has 20,000 shock troops on the ready for the 2022 election OAN and other right wing news is in full revolution and execution mode against elected officials and ideological opponents. (95 % of posters here do not recognize or believe the danger in this legitimazation stage of right wing revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 08:04 AM

I detest the notion of compulsory patriotism as it borders on both Stalinism or naziism, depending upon where you are on the political spectrum. My partner grew up under soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia and her mother under German occupation, where people were expected to demonstrate patriotism towards the occupying regimes. So pardon me if I do not appreciate blind 'patriotic' flag waving.

Governments need to prove that they are worthy of flying flags, and in the UK I would be happy to fly the EU flag, but not a flag that symbolises class oppression and race/nationality-based xenophobia. The UK flag no longer represents my values.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 06:50 PM

Flags that entered the capitol on 1-6 are being saluted by Repulicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Mysha
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 04:40 PM

Erm, are you galls f/m talking about that flag that officially is in a ratio of 1:1.9?

Bye

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 03:40 AM

Florida has a mandates that outlaws mandates. eg masks, eg being vaccinated (at workplace)

Which US flag? Confederate or the French Tricolore

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 09:35 PM

This update is relevant because the thread describes
efforts to correct or improve displays of the U. S. flag.

I've been in a southern New England region,
settled into my present location for over a year and a half.
It shocked me to drive down the state route which turns into Main Street.
I drove past a local memorial, complete with flagpole and a little fence with a gate around it. I can't tell you to what is this memorial.
I was too distracted by the condition of the U.S. flag on the flagpole.

This was when I first arrived in early 2020.
So tattered was this example of the Stars and Stripes,
that one stripe had ripped away from the stripe next to it,
clear back to that navy-blue field with the silvery white stars on it.
That's a LONG rip.
And there were the colors, flapping helplessly in the nearest breeze.

Imagine my surprise, after lo! these many months,
when I drove down the road and saw the following:
the memorial with the gate was still there.
The flagpole, for some reason, had been picked up and moved a foot or two,
to a spot very close but with easier access.
And wonder of wonders,
there was a brand new Stars and Stripes flying from it.

My respect to whoever finally got the deed accomplished.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM

Yes Aussie's Ok. Here my True-love is sometimes called "Septic" (rhyming slang for Yank from Septic Tank) which is also used as a term of affection. Soon he'll have dual citizenship which will make him a "Septic Aussie" I guess. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:44 AM

Hey, fella, we invented the NHL. That's probably BS, but hey, it sounds good.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

What do you call them when they're not in the NHL?

By the way, should that be the IHL? As in International? Or is Canada considered to be the 51st state in the NHL?

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM

Canucks is what we call the Vancouver hockey team in the NHL.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:37 AM

"Aussie" also has never had any racial overtones.

"Kiwi" is a mostly affectionate term used by Aussies for New Zealanders.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: JennyO
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:43 PM

it's absolutely fine by me, Blackcatter. I don't think any of us will mind. It's not used here as a derogatory term.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM

Nothing but the best of Aussie school kids.

By the way, I've never asked, is "Aussie" an ok term? I mean do Australians use it, are they bothered by it, etc.?

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

Bundy O.P. - of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:08 AM

And a bottle of rum! Yo Ho Ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 11:51 PM

har, har ye maties!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Joybell
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

We live on an old school property with a little one-room school. John Howard hasn't offered us a flag yet (which we'd have to pay for of course and add a plaque saying he did. See Foolestroope above), but if he does we'll get ourselves a Jolly Roger. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 03:09 PM

Who should be punished are those people who fly the flag in an inappropriate manner - and not as a protest statement.

Any one who flies it at night without a light on it.

Anyone who flies a battered flag on a regular basis (one that was battered, torn, etc. simply by the fact that they've been flying it too long.

Anyone who uses the flag as clothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

The VFW, American Legion, Marine Corps League, Vietnam Veterans of America, and about any other veterans service organization I know of will do the same thing, as what happened on Pocatello's campus, for any space for free. Each year these groups donate millions of dollars worth of time, and money, into civic projects.

And they force no one to do anything. Just a bunch of us old guys attempting to keep the symbol of our country aloft. I don't think we condemn any of you for your belief nor do we ask that you participate. It's our social donation in the name of those we believe fell for our freedoms. And we don't even ask that you agree with that.

And yes that cam is of my one of my old alma maters at Pocafella. 1969 - vo-tech - Machine Shop.

Rapaire moved there a year or so ago and is a welcome addition to our fine state. Although I've not met him personally I've certainly enjoyed his moderated and well thought out posts here.

God Bless
Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

Rant away I.S.!

Once again:

Liberals want to preserve people's rights and allow they the ability to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

Conservatives want to restrict those rights they dislike and force upon everyone those they like.

It doesn't matter if you're Democrat, Republican, Green, Socialist, Libertarian or whatever. If you work to restrict my right to L, L, & PoH, I will fight you tooth and nail.

Are there somethings that should be restricted? Sure, the young, the mentally challenged and convicted felons should not have all the rights of the rest of the people since they may/do not have the capacity to make correct descisions about their and other people's safety. Other items that are so completely dangerous (such as bombs, WMD, tanks, etc should be off limits too.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

Irish Sergeant,

Please allow me to rant along with you. If I am asked politely, I am very easy to get along with. As soon as I am ordered to do things, my first response tends to be along the lines of "And who the fu#k are YOU?" That has got me in trouble since I was in grade 2. I am now 56 years old and I still feel the same way. They tried to beat it out of me and it didn't work. I had three teachers over the years who realized all they had to do was ask politely. I have had some excellent principals too. They always asked and they usually got. The ones who told me that I would do also got. But the two different types of principals didn't 'got' the same thing. This "Thou shalt" crap is too heavy handed. Rant over.

PS I do not at all mind facing the flag of my country, and I would not think of staying seated while the national anthem is played. But when I am ordered to do it, I tend to do it only in my mind and look at the flag from the corner of my eye. I guess it's in the way a thing is said. Rant over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM

While I for one, have no qualms about saying the pledge of Allegience or having a flag in every classroom, I do have huge qualms when people like the pea wits in Florida who feel they have to ram their view of patriotism down the throats of others. i fought to defend the constitution of the United States of America, not some perverted vision of what the right wing reactionaries want the constitution to say. Irish Sergeant (on a rant yet again)

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

Mark Twain said that "literature is the stuff everybody talks about and nobody reads." Replace literature with law. The edict that people WILL fly a flag and go from there really grates my nuts. A request would have been much better. I teach in a Catholic school. When I was told I WOULD say the Lord's Prayer every day with my class I did not. I said it in my head, because I like the prayer. This is the reason I was sent to the principal's office so ofetn when I was young. Now, I am old, and I still get sent to the principal's office.

And where they make a desert they call it peace. Tacitus.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

Well, artbrooks, it does, but it says that the general administrator of a government department can mandate minor adjustments. It does not give that power to the legislature, but keeps it in the executive branch. I don't think adjusting 1.9:1 to 3:2 can be considered a MINOR adjustment, nor do I think the legislature would have the power to mandate it if it WERE plausibly considered minor.

One of the problems is that this EO seems only to apply to actual offices of the government, which schools are not. If it IS extended to schools, it seems from this order that, before allowing other sizes, the secretary of education, or at least someone in the state department of education, would have to authorize the adjustment. Perhaps that has already been done for Florida schools prior to this legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

Rapaire:

Time from request to erection...was about three weeks

well, those American Legion guys ARE mainly seniors...

Sorry! Couldn't resist!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:46 AM

Congratulations Bee-dubya-ell, on your possession of what seems to be one of the few unwashed brains between Seattle and New Orleans!

That's rather unfortunate for Bee-dubya-ell, since the rest of his body is quite a bit to the east of what lies between Seattle and New Orleans.

You're not just doing to the flag and the flag is just a physical symbol. Call it idolatry, if you wish, but no one is worshipping the flag in this case.

Then they can just leave out the bit about "pledging allegiance to the flag", and stop having people stand facing the flag with their hand over the left side of their chest. As long as that part is in there, people like me will have problems with it.

How about this... "I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic it serves, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:25 AM

Great story Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:09 AM

Rapaire, are you in Pocatello? Can we see your library and flag in this web cam?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:27 AM

FWIW, here in England, we recently had a ginormous St George's flag on the side of the old Fort Dunlop building in Birmingham, placed where everyone could see it from the M6 motorway. The reason for this rather un-English outburst of patriotic histrionics (histrionic patriotism?) was the (then) forthcoming soccer World Cup. Motorists flew flags (often more than one) from their cars; taxi drivers were told not to fly them, as it might upset Muslims (duh???), and Muslims of course said they were not offended, in fact many Muslims were flying them too.

I can't understand why people get so worked up about soccer, but they do, and I don't mind at all. But then nobody here tries to force soccer on everyone. You may not be aware, but we Brits have a constition. it's much bigger than your US Constitution, and most people don't know what it says. (It includes things like the monarch can't marry a Roman Caholic, and no-one married to a RC can become monarch. Nothng about an Englishman's home being his castle, and nothing about soccer, AFAIK.)

Dr Johnson said "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." As a true-blue Briton himself, he was denigrating scoundrels, and not dissing patriots. Like every nation, we have a lot to be ashamed of. But there's quite a bit for us -- and you Americans -- to be proud of too. Let's try and remember which is which.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:20 AM

Heck, we didn't have a flagpole at the Library. Being a public building and all, I figgered we should have one. Didn't have any money for it, so I called the local American Legion.

We got the Parks & Recreation department to pour a base for it and the AL made it. I mean, they constructed it, built it out of pipe and such. Up on top, for that brass ball you see -- they stuck a toilet tank float that they'd polished. Time from request to erection of the pole was about three weeks; the Legion donated the first flag, and on Armistice Day we dedicated the thing.

Cost to us: zero (except for a couple of local phone calls and a piece fo ground about 3 x 3 feet). Benefits: we got some support for the Library from a section of the local community nobody thought of before -- a part with some political clout, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM

The EO on US flag proportions does not mandate 1:1.9-see Section 24 in the link above...oh, heck, here it is again.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

& while waiting for the chq. the school does without essentials, if they are a poor state school or a small private religious school.

However if they are one of the large rich private religious (or secular) school with enormous government funding, they don't even notice the cost.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 06:37 AM

Johnnie Howard has apparently been faithfully taking the Bush tablets.

Australian Schools now have to fly the Aussie flag to get Federal Funding.

The Govt has decreed that $1500 will be made available to put up a flagpole for each school - but the funding seems to be a little short on one for every school...

But:

First you have to raise the money yourself to get the flagpole installed.
Then you have to submit a form requesting reimbursement.
Then you have to pay for and affix an approved plaque that says that the flagpole was donated by the Howard Federal Govt.
Then it has to be "approved".
Then just wait for the cheque...

Insert here all the previous stuff about schools not having sufficient funding in the first place...

Robin

I'm not making this up!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 03:52 AM

Congratulations Bee-dubya-ell, on your possession of what seems to be one of the few unwashed brains between Seattle and New Orleans!

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: darkriver
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 02:40 AM

Here is the largest US flag ever. It was plastered to the outside of the building where I work, a few days after 9/11/01, by my boss.

doug

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 11:30 PM

"I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

You're not just doing to the flag and the flag is just a physical symbol. Call it idolatry, if you wish, but no one is worshipping the flag in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM

From the Two Ronnies (BBC comedy show, some years ago):

"The longest trial in recent British history has just ended at the Old Bailey. Apparently, when the chief prosecution witness took the oath, he held the card in his right hand, and read aloud what was in the Bible."

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:34 PM

Bobert, that stupid gigantic flag still flies over Midlothian Tpk.

Subject: RE: BS: Buy a flag, fly a flag, or go to jail!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:08 PM

Many Quakers also refuse to pledge allegiance to the flag. I can't say this is an official doctrine of the Quakers, because Quakers don't have any official doctrines or creeds. There probably are some Quaker kids who DO say the Pledge, or go through the motions, just because they don't want to make a fuss or stand out from the crowd, and I don't think Quakers would condemn them for doing it, but I think they would support anyone who refused to say the Pledge.

See Friends Statements on the Pledge of Allegiance