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BS: Matter and Spirit
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM Spiritual reasons for killing others comprise a portion of all of the reasons people have for killing each other, but hardly all of the reasons. Money, power, and territory are also very common reasons people kill other people. And they employ science to help them do it. So let's not be pointing fingers in only one direction when it comes to that sort of thing. Nuclear weaponry, in my opinion one of the most horrific, and certainly the most potentially destructive of all earthly creations, was not created by people on a religious mission. It was created by scientists for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Sometimes when people don't realize they have a soul, they operate with less concern for any damage they might do to it through the way they behave while in the physical body. These kinds of arguments can cut both ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:53 PM No disagreement there, either, Carol. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:42 AM just missed your post, Amos... what I think is, you don't have enough options in either of your lists....like Pascal's wager, there are many more options than he gives. Actually, I do NOT tend towards 3, I tend towards a combination of 1 & 2 1) they are telling the truth about what they experienced AND (2) they are I have MANY times had "flying dreams" and 'seen' the world from above...in views I have never had RT....but I do know what it feels like to look down on things...and I know the concept of flying.....and (you may see where I'm headed)..I know what *I* look like, and have also had dreams where I 'saw' myself, as if in a little movie. This sort of mental activity, I assume, could lead to OBEs. Note...I do NOT claim I have proved it can't happen, only that I have a great respect for Occam's Razor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:06 AM Carol... "Spiritual reasons for killing others comprise a portion of all of the reasons people have for killing each other, but hardly all of the reasons" of course, that is true!..and sad...but it does not address the point I was making, in which I only used that as an extreme example of what possibly faulty premises can lead to.... I can also make points about premises that assume that money & power are sufficient to justify killing....and there are many who truly believe THAT also! If you & I could get these people into a room, we might try to show them that, in the larger view, their premises are ultimately false, and will do more harm than good....but we can't force them to agree with our logic, we can only hope to convince them to stop by substituting reasons they can comprehend. "stop that crap, or you are dead meat"..etc... the point is: IF your premises happen to be false...(I mean really, ultimately false) THEN your conclusions are suspect. Therefore, it is a good idea to be wary of conclusions whose premises are, by definition, not testable under current knowlege. Unfortunately, too many folks see conclusions that are desirable, feel good, or are otherwise just plain interesting, and consciously or subconciously construct premises to fit. (I call this "throwing the dart, then drawing the bullseye around it"...*grin*) Much of the more 'esoteric' experiences do need to be investigated and compared...who knows-- we might find out stuff that is solid and clear explanations for some of it! (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) Me...I'd rather help TBPL set up the double-blind experiment...*grin*...but you guessed that) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:42 AM Yes Carol Scientists started the Second World War to pursue their highly un-spiritual aim of making an atomic bomb. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about the NAZI /Japanese axes trying to take over the world. The bomb shortened the War and led to less allied troops dying. Was it justified? I don't know. Would I have made the same decision in their place? Probably. It's a wicked world and hindsight is a wonderful thing. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM Occam's Razor -- to me a single postulate explaining a whole range of phenomena is a lot simpler and therefore preferable than rejecting the postulate and being left with "life is just matter made very complicated, and consciousness doubly so" which requires all sorts of contrivances to explain things. Maybe Occam's Razor is one of those things that reflects the bias of the user, I guess. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:23 AM My God Amos I think you've got somthing there. The Univers is what I want it to be. Dead simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM THere ya go, mate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:16 PM That's true. It is dead simple. It's founded on a singularity which is immeasurable, and essentially indescribable. That singularity then manifests as duality...which can be expressed in terms of vibratory movement (wave-forms of energy). We then observe the playing out of that duality in uncountable trillions of forms, events, energetic movements, phenonmena, material objects, etc. In all of these observable things we find polarity, expressing duality. Male-female, dark-light, up-down, left-right, within-without, postitive-negative, good-bad, winner-loser, and so on... People then set about giving all kinds of fancy names to these examples of duality they see around them, fighting over whether their interpretation of it all is more valuable than the other guy's interpretation, and so. That's how they formed the religions, and the political systems, and the social customs, and so on. It's all in-out-in-out like the surf, or your breath, or your heartbeat, or the act of sex. That's simple all right. The person who sees meaning and intelligence behind that Universal simplicity sees life as a spiritual circumstance. The person who thinks it all "just happened somehow by natural laws", but for no conscious or purposeful reason, doesn't see it that way. I think that's what divides people like Wolfgang and me, Bill. I see a meaning behind it all, he sees a functioning mechanism without a meaning behind it all. As for people killing people for spiritual reasons...naw...I don't think so. People kill people for religious reasons. There's a difference! And they also kill people for money, power, and a host of other reasons, needless to say...but they very seldom kill people for any reason that I would term "spiritual". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM Pied Piper, you are putting words in my mouth. Doing what Bill D calls operating from a faulty premise. I said that people start wars for reasons having to do with money, power and territory, and they employ science to help them do it. You are the one who said scientists started the war. However, any time a scientist creates a weapon because of the money, fame, recognition or respect from peers, etc, that come with breaking new ground in the scientific world (I'm not saying all are motivated by this, but some certainly are), he or she is in no way motivated by altruism or anything other than self-interest. the point is: IF your premises happen to be false...(I mean really, ultimately false) THEN your conclusions are suspect. Therefore, it is a good idea to be wary of conclusions whose premises are, by definition, not testable under current knowlege Much of the more 'esoteric' experiences do need to be investigated and compared...who knows-- we might find out stuff that is solid and clear explanations for some of it! (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) No boubt that some of what you call "esoteric" experiences are indeed just flights of fancy. And no doubt some of them cause people to make bad decisions. But in the case of those people, I would suspect that such people would most probably be making bad decisions based on faulty premises even in the absence of the more "esoteric" way of looking at things. I've met many such people. On the other hand. many people who are serious about the way they conduct their lives, from a spiritual standpoint, would tell you that their spirituality doesn't produce a "feel good" kind of convenient pretend world, but rather, it causes them to have to live a lot more responsibly with regard to their fellow humans and also all of nature, and the planet as a whole. And that, while they are at peace with their particular trajectory in life, it is not any easier, and is, in fact, a lot more challenging and even more difficult to maintain than a life without this spiritual focus. And as you can see, many of my experiences can be described as anything but "feel good" experiences. I have no incentives to want to experience energy the way I do. There is nothing about the way I experience energy that would cause me to want to have these experiences. If anything, there are many, many things about my experiences that would motivate me to want to not have them. And I never expected to have these experiences either. I have never seen or heard anyone describe the kinds of experiences I have, so it was not "suggestion" that prompted these experiences. I just note what I experience and when I have enough of the same kind of experience, I try to notice what the circumstances are that surround that experience and learn how to deal with it in the most effective way. It is just as faulty a premise to suggest that a spiritual focus causes bad or inapropriate behavior or decisions in humans as it is to suggest that a scientific focus causes bad or inapropriate behavior or decisions in humans. The reasons for bad behavior and decisions is a result of faulty thought processes within each human, and things like spirituality and science (and many, many other kinds of focus) are simply the vehicles for the expression of these faulty thought processes. (Maybe someone will develop an instrument that can monitor the emanations of a Genesa crystal and SHOW that you are right...*shrug*) Maybe. They don't emanate anything though. They work with the energy that is already present. They draw it in, concentrate it and "condition" it, and then send it back out. Me...I'd rather help TBPL set up the double-blind experiment...*grin*...but you guessed that) I have issued the invitation. It's up to you and TBPL to take me up on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM OK. Help me out, I might be looking in the wrong place. My searches are suggesting a Genesa crystal is a shape not a real crystal. Is that correct? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM I need to amend this part of my last post: I have no incentives to want to experience energy the way I do. There is nothing about the way I experience energy that would cause me to want to have these experiences. I do think that, if I didn't have the particular problem that I have with getting easily overloaded, I would most definitely prefer to be as sensitive and open to energy as I am. I have found, on the occasions when I have been not open to spiritual energy, that I feel much more "flat" and one dimensional than when I am open to spiritual energy. And while I don't think I would seek out the kinds of unpleasant experiences that I have, there are many good things that also accompany my being as sensitive and open to energy as I am (including waaaayyy better sex, if my partner is also open able to work with spritual energy... and no, you can not come here and test that ;-) So given the benefit of hindsight, I know I would still choose to be as sensitive and open to spiritual energy as I am, even if it means experiencing the discomfort that comes along with it. But I know that I would not deliberately set out to have the unpleasant kinds of experiences I have with spiritual energy. P.S. I think I know a way to test and even measure the effect that spiritual energy has on plants based on the scientific model we used when I worked in the herbicide research dept. at the University of Maryland many years ago. I'll work something up and maybe get back to you guys with what I get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:45 PM OK. Help me out, I might be looking in the wrong place. My searches are suggesting a Genesa crystal is a shape not a real crystal. Is that correct? That's correct. They're not too difficult to make. I've made several myself using copper refrigerator tubing and silver solder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM So, copper tubing, silver solder ... what else? Where's the energy source? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:27 PM There is a universal energy source available everywhere, but you need to know how to tap it, that's all. It seems that this form of crystal Carol is speaking of may be one useful device for doing that. Nikola Tesla was working on accessing a universal field of energy. It's out there, and it ultimately powers everything, including all living beings. I have the impression that the space vehicles that visit us from time to time make direct use of it, but I am only theorizing when I say that. It's not something you burn, and it's not something you need to connect to with wires, but it can provide an unlimited suppy of energy which can then be converted into heat, light, electricity, gravitational force, etc. What you need is a receiver/transmitter to make use of it, regulate the amount, and control it. The human body itself can be used as such a receiver/transmitter. And, no, I can't prove any of that to those of you who are skeptical about the matter! :-) Sorry, I truly wish I could... If I could prove it to a large enough number of people, though, and the oil industry found out, then they would either bribe me to shut up about it or kill me. They've got money to make, an oligarchy to maintain, and a captive populace to milk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:28 PM Oh great more delusional new age shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM The best test would be to have CarolC around for tea while one has one of these crystal thingies hidden in a cupboard. If she suddenly gets sick then there maybe something in what she says (or there may not be - other variables - coincidences in diet, climatic conditions, state of mind when these attacks occured - could well be taken into account). I would point out that CarolC having my fellow sceptics visit her with a crystal would not be a 'fair test', because as soon as she saw them she would be aware that a test was imminent. If her symptoms are a psychosomatic phenomenon as I suspect as a sceptic, this could trigger them off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM And, no, I can't prove any of that to those of you who are skeptical about the matter! :-) It's not the matter that we're sceptical about LH ... ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:52 PM Now the Mudcat mystics would have us believe that the universe consists of two different types of things mater and for want of a definable word "Spirit". Now if these two things interact at all scales then when we experiment on mater what we discover is not just the properties of mater but the properties of the mater-spirit complex and therefore the discoveries of Physics are correct and apply to the universe. If however this spirit stuff only interacts with matter that has a mind buy what mechanism does it effect mind and mind affect spirit. In short would the universe be any different if we discard the concept of spirit entirely. And please give some evidence that is at least in principal testable. Piper: I am one of those mystics, and I will take a stab at it. Everything is made of atoms right? There is a minimum of 1 and usually a lot more electron, protron or Neutron orbiting the nucleus. What happens when one of these sub atomic particle moves to a closer orbit? some amount of of energy is released. Do you remember that in tests on these subatomic particles that they often behaved in the way the scientists expected. As a mystic; I think I can explain it. Because of the scientists expectation; they were unconsciously direct lifeforce energy that has been called by many names ch'i, itaki, ki, mana, manitou, nuwati, Reiki, etc) this energy follows thought, and their thoughts or expectations; directed the energy that affected the outcome. Kirlian photography shown the increases size of the field around the hands of healers, and others that consciously direct this energy. I'm not sure quite what you are asking there, Pied Piper, but some of us don't see "matter" and "spirit" as being separate at all. To us, it's just the perception of matter and spirit that seems to have separateness. And, as we know, perception is relative and not always testable. (In other words, to some of us, matter is also "spirit", just in a different form than the more ethereal aspects of spirit. So for some of us, everythig is "spirit", matter included.) I agree Carol: Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit. If spirit existed in a physical sense (no pun intended) you could buy it in a jar and rub it on like ointment. BPL: Actually you can. It is pouring out of my hands almost all of the time. ;-) That is what I use when I do healings. Remember Phogiston? And Ether? and "universal mind"? and "dragons, unicorns, a benevolent dictator, and pixies!" Bill D: You mean they don't!? I would be willing to submit to a polygraph that I once met a dragon almost nose to nose once. Have you people ever hear of a funny thing called evolution? There is no soul, no spirit, no good, and no evil. There is only nature. Guest: Yes I have heard of evolution, and I believe in micro evolution. People ARE becoming taller and more intelegent; but I do NOT believe in macro evolution where one species mutates into another. If we evolved from monkeys; why are there still monkeys? If you choose to not believe in good and evil; be my guest; but your belief does not make it so. I KNOW evil exists because I have done more than my share of exorcisms. Last April; I exorcized a house of very negative entities. The family dog would go to the top of the stairs and growl; but could not be forced to go down stairs. After a friend of a friend and I went down there abd cleansed the basement; the dog happily came down the stairs and went through the basement with us. Guest; If you do not believe me; PM me, and I will give you the name and address, and E-Mail address of the family and YOU can ask them if I am lying to you. I have also gone into places so negative that a Catholic priest was picked up in the air and thrown about 10 feet, and he quickly left the home instead of completing the house blessing. Another friend, and her family in New York was being terrified by dark shadows with glowing red eyes. I told her how to do a house blessing via the Native American nethod (smudging the house with sage) she bought some white sage and burned it and fanned the smoke into the corners, closets, under the beds, in drawers, etc, and the dark shadows, nightmaresm and bad luck ended. I have several letters like this in my filing cabinet. If you are near Nashville, Tn. you are welcome to come by and read the folder. You and I are both humans with the same faculties. You claim to experience things in a way most people cannot. How can we non-experiencers accept our deficiency as real if you dismiss attempts to verify validity of your powers? I say this to Little Hawk, Two Bears et al too. You brush off pleas for proof with the same expression of not caring if we believe you or not. But I share the journey of life with you and I have been led down so many garden paths, distracted at so many snake-oil stalls and exhausted by so many wild goose chases I cannot afford to waste any more time. BPL: you are missing something important, Some people are near sighted, others are far sighted, others are color blind, others are hard of hearing, etc. Everyone does NOT have the same faculties. Tell me what part of the country you are in, and when I am going to be in your area; I will invite you along as my guest when I go to do a healing, an exorcism, or teach a HUNA workshop. It will only take a little time, and you can talk to the others people there, and find out if I am a snake oil salesman or gasp (what I claim to be). of spiritual energy is similar to mine (everybody's different, so I won't say "the same"), no one experiences it even a little bit the way I do. This is not because I have any special "powers", Carol: You are EXACTLY correct. The reason is that everyone's sub conscious mind (unihipili in HUNA vernacular) has expactation of how energy is supposed to feel, and the Unihipili modulates the energy to feel the wy they are expecting it to feel. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM 2B - there is little doubt others at your workshops will agree with you. You're unlikely to attract people who would not do so. I've been to such workshops (OK, I have to retract that as I really have no idea what yours entails) and have remained completely unnaffected. Hypnotists, psychics, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, homeopaths, healers, polychromatic priests and certain pidgeon fanciers. Apparently, it's my own fault the tricks never seem to come off: I give off 'negative energy' and diminish the power of the guru. Well. It's obvious you guys are never going to give an inch on this. Those 's(k)eptics' on this and other threads like it have stopped short of denouncement (I exclude some rudish guests) because we're actually interested in what it is you ARE doing. Have you ever thought what the ramifications of finding out what's truly going on would be? We're not (I'm not anyway) trying to trash anyone's belief systems, just looking for testable answers, or even clues ... throw us a bone here. I'm off to drink beer soon. It's made with water, malt, hops ... and yeast, which used to be called 'godisgood' ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:39 PM Man, I think about the ramifications every day of my life! I look forward to people advancing to greater awareness and accomplishments and I believe they will. Evolution is an ongoing process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:49 PM I was reading thru recent posts, trying to decide whether to reply to some points, knowing that time was short right now......when I saw this: "...I do NOT believe in macro evolution where one species mutates into another. If we evolved from monkeys; why are there still monkeys?" This hits me harder than any of the 'energy' ideas, as I can at least understand why one could accept/believe in them, even if I don't.....but how one species mutates and evolves into others has been not only explained, but demonstrated......there are still monkeys because not all monkeys/apes mutated!...mutation is something that happens to INDIVIDUALS..and thus, their progeny. 50 apes in a group: ONE has a baby with a mutation for 'bigger brain case' or 'better hip joint', and off we go....49 do NOT, and their line remains apes/monkeys. I must ask what you DO believe is the origin of 'us'.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:58 PM TBPL, the energy is what's already there. As I said, they work with the energy that's in the vicinity of the crystal. I agree that one of the problems with trying to do a test involving my own perceptions of energy would be tricky, although I don't think necessarily impossible. That's why I have proposed an experiment involving plants. There's a woman in Jeffersonton Virginia who does this kind of experimentation. I first discovered the unpleasant reaction I experience around large Genesa crystals while visiting her experimental gardens. I can set up a test using the scientific model we used at the U of MD for herbicides, to measure the effect of spiritual energy on plants. And by "measure" I mean physically measure. I already have a small Genesa crystal and the materials for two identical container gardens with the only variable being the Genesa crystal, possibly in tandem with some other kinds of spiritual energy conductors. This would not be difficult to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM *smile*....a musical take on the origins of 'us' (I used to know this by heart...I could brush up on it and sing it in an hour) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:29 PM Love the song! CarolC ... you would not be the best candidate to set up the test and I'm sure you would not want me to do it! It would have to be done by a third party. Who'd believe either one of us? ;o) Plus we're in two different countries. Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:43 PM CarolC ... you would not be the best candidate to set up the test and I'm sure you would not want me to do it! It would have to be done by a third party. Who'd believe either one of us? ;o) Plus we're in two different countries. Is that you TBPL? I don't see any reason why I couldn't be a good candidate for conducting a test that uses a rigid scientific model with detailed records and exact measurements. I can describe the model for you if you want. Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? I have no idea. It was the College Park campus. I worked there during the summer of 1979, I believe. The department head was Dr. Ron Ritter. I believe Roundup was one of the herbicides we were testing, but I'm not sure. Here's a Google search with "university of maryland" herbicide "dr. ron ritter" as the search parameters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM 2B - there is little doubt others at your workshops will agree with you. You're unlikely to attract people who would not do so. I've been to such workshops (OK, I have to retract that as I really have no idea what yours entails) and have remained completely unnaffected. Hypnotists, psychics, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, homeopaths, healers, polychromatic priests and certain pidgeon fanciers. Apparently, it's my own fault the tricks never seem to come off: I give off 'negative energy' and diminish the power of the guru. Well. Our workshops teach people who and what they really are, and give them the tools to bring the three selves into harmony; so THEY can manifest real miracles in their life; IF they are willing to do the inner work to change the way they think consciously and sub consciouslly. Spiritual technology that does not work for people (who are willing to put it into practise) is pointless. It is a waste of time and effort. It's obvious you guys are never going to give an inch on this. Those 's(k)eptics' on this and other threads like it have stopped short of denouncement (I exclude some rudish guests) because we're actually interested in what it is you ARE doing. Have you ever thought what the ramifications of finding out what's truly going on would be? I did give an inch. I invited you to come as my guest so you can see and experience for yourself. Oh; I know the ramifications of what I am doing in teaching this spiritual technology. People will change the way they think consciously and subconsciously, and people can claim their true potential we were given by the higher powers. By people directing this energy in constructive ways instead of the habitual negative thinking; we can repair the earth's environment and save the planet before humanity destroys itself. By the force of will directing lifeforce energy for the highest good; 1. I have seen a person suffering from whiplash start throwing their extremities via spasms as the injured nerves, tendons and muscles in the neck were repaired. 2. I have seen misplaced bones shift back into position to give INSTANT and complete relief. 3. One of my students worked with an AIDS patient in the hospital (who was not supposed to survive the night; recover and leave the hospital three days later. 4. I have seen a person COMPLETELY recover from a terminal disease. He had Muscular Dystrophy, and NO ONE is supposed to recover from that with the best of science and medication. This kid did it himself just by directing this lifeforce energy with the will (that kid was ME 24 years ago). 5. By directing this energy a person received a healing of a habitual bad back for the last 20 years. 6. A young lady was complaining about an ear ache and sinus infection, and she asked me to see if I could help her, I gave her a short healing session lasting no more than 3 minutes, and the heat coming from my hands blew her away. about two minutes after I removed my handsl her blood stream started moving that energy around, and she flushed beet red from the top of her head to her waist. 7. My neighbor Dean was hit by a train when the car he was in started to cross the tracks (the other passengers were killed (if memory serves) He has been in MASSIVE pain ever since. One of the neighbors in the apt complex told him that I was a healer, and was about to go to Canada to do a workshop, and he went to ask the manager, and she confirmed it, and told him about the incident with the healing of her daughter, and the maintenance man from another complex who had a headache, and the headache was GONE in 60 seconds; so my neighbor asked me to do a healing for him. I did, and after 3-4 minutes healing; the pain was gone, and stayed gone for 7-8 hours when he was popping very potent pain medication every 4-6 hours. I could go on and on with anecdotal evidence. We're not (I'm not anyway) trying to trash anyone's belief systems, just looking for testable answers, or even clues ... throw us a bone here. I have thown everyone a bone. I wrote a website explaining this spiritual technology, and people only have to apply it, and use the attitude "this MIGHT work" I am NOT asking for any more faith than that. After you begin moving lifeforce energy; and see this works; you can do the work to bring the subconscious mind into harmony with the conscious mind; then the higher powers can work through you and create miracles like those described above. When I cured my muscular Dystrophy; I was an athiest, but just using basic lifeforce energy (mana), and mental lifeforce energy (mana mana) but it took 8 weeks to walk away from the wheelchair. If I had; had this technology 24 years ago and could have used spiritual lifeforce energy then; it would not have takesn so many months to re-build my weakened body. Test the technology for yourselfl and YOU be the judge jury and prosecutor whether this spiritual technology works or not. I'm off to drink beer soon. It's made with water, malt, hops ... and yeast, which used to be called 'godisgood' ;o) Enjoy it. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM This hits me harder than any of the 'energy' ideas, as I can at least understand why one could accept/believe in them, even if I don't.....but how one species mutates and evolves into others has been not only explained, but demonstrated......there are still monkeys because not all monkeys/apes mutated!...mutation is something that happens to INDIVIDUALS..and thus, their progeny. 50 apes in a group: ONE has a baby with a mutation for 'bigger brain case' or 'better hip joint', and off we go....49 do NOT, and their line remains apes/monkeys. What species has changed to another species. The incident of the moths doesn't wash because the darker moths had always been present. With the soot from the burning coal in europsl the darker moths had camaflauge on the soot covered branches and the lighter colored moths who previously had camoflauge on the trees (sans the soot) (micro evolution) Charles Darwin worked primarily with finches, and he developed the THEORY of evolution based on the way the bills of the finches changed. They changed because the food they ate changed (again micro evolution) The birds were still able to breed between the different sub types. If you believe that one monkey was born with a better skull, hip joint; you have my condolences. Did you ever hear of the 100th monkey theory? Look it up. After a critical mass is reached; ALL of the members of the species "gets it" and they ALL have the new tools when previously they did not know it. Let;s just say that I believe human beings were created (by a Creator, or by aliens messing with our ancestors DNA. No matter what is said here is conjecture that I can not say for certain; so I do not waste time or lifeforce working on problems that can not be solved until someone invents a time machine and goes back in time to observe. Let's just say when I see a tornado go through a junk yard with parts of a 747; and the tornado assembles the 747 bolt by bolt; I will believe in evolution creating something just as complex as the 747 in the junk yard. It is called the mythical lighning strike creating DNA from the primordial ooze. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM I agree that one of the problems with trying to do a test involving my own perceptions of energy would be tricky, although I don't think necessarily impossible. That's why I have proposed an experiment involving plants. There's a woman in Jeffersonton Virginia who does this kind of experimentation. I first discovered the unpleasant reaction I experience around large Genesa crystals while visiting her experimental gardens. Carol: It has already been done. Christopher Bird and a co-Author used scientific methods to work with plants. the book was called "The Secret Life Of Plants". There is another book you should read "The Holographic Universe". ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:27 PM Carol; I just thought of another test that had been done. In this double blind test, a hospital in California that did a lot of heart surgeries was approached to have a test on the power of intention or prayer. the test was that half of the heart patients names were given to the people who would pray for them, and the recepients were NOT aware that they were being prayed for. During the test the people that were prayed for had a lot less complications, and needs less medication. I read of this in one of Larry Dossey's books (an academic, and medical doctor). If memory serves it was in the book "The Power Of Prayer" if memory serves. In the book; he released the data from the test including the name of the hospital, and other details. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:30 PM Yes, Bill, I can also recommend "The Holographic Universe". It's a great book to read for both scientifically-minded people and mystics. Evolution? It seems clear to me that there is evidence for physical evolution. Most of the spiritual studies I have done suggest to me that there is both spiritual evolution and physical evolution in the world of nature. The two processes accompany one another, as they must, because it's all one continuum anyway. Did humans evolve from an ape-like ancestor? Possibly. Did they evolve with the help of extraterrestrials who did some genetic tinkering or cross-breeding? Possibly. Was it a combination of both? Possibly. Was it something else? Possibly. I have no final opinion on the matter, but I don't find Darwinian evolution incompatible with having spiritual beliefs, and neither did Darwin! :-) It was minds smaller than his on either side of the fence that chose to wage a battle over the matter (scientific reductionists vs Christian fundamentalists). I think those 2 lots of people deserve each other, frankly, because they think in the same exclusive, narrow-minded fashion. Buddhist and Vedantic teachings recognize that physical evolution occurs in nature, and regard it as part of the spiritual process working its way in the physical world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM Yes, Bill, I can also recommend "The Holographic Universe". It's a great book to read for both scientifically-minded people and mystics. I am glad you agree with me on "The Holographic Universe". Evolution? It seems clear to me that there is evidence for physical evolution. Most of the spiritual studies I have done suggest to me that there is both spiritual evolution and physical evolution in the world of nature. The two processes accompany one another, LH; I guess you missed it, I stated that *I* believe in micro evolution. It is fact that human beings are getting taller, and more intelegent. I just do not believe in macro ecolution (jumping from one species to another. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:55 PM Jumping? No, I don't really believe in that either, I believe in a gradual series of evolutionary changes in a given species. I mean, it seems more probable. When you've got millions and millions of years to work with you don't have to be in a big hurry, after all. Darwin didn't say people evolved from monkeys. He theorized that they evolved from an ape-like ancestor. Apes are not monkeys. Darwinian evolution is the latest popular scientific theory about the development of species to achieve widespread acceptance. I'm sure it won't be the last. There has never been a human culture that didn't think it had the answers, has there? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:05 AM The 100th monkey theory is about social change...learning new skills, not physical change to the DNA. You are leaning dangerously close to the discredited theories of Lamarck there, Two Bears.....It's an easy mistake to make, but it just doesn't work like that. I studied Lamarck and the explanations in 1957-58, and more evidence has been accumulating for almost 50 years since. I'm too sleepy to type more or link to the details tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:28 AM The 100th monkey theory is about social change...learning new skills, not physical change to the DNA. You are leaning dangerously close to the discredited theories of Lamarck there, Two Bears.....It's an easy mistake to make, but it just doesn't work like that. I studied Lamarck and the explanations in 1957-58, and more evidence has been accumulating for almost 50 years since. The 100th monkey theory is about a critical mass being reached and when that critical mass is reached; the other monkeys knowing things that they did not learn directly. You still have not gives ONE example of macro evolution. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:06 PM Macro evolution will occur when Martin Gibson wakes up one morning consumed with a new desire to avoid offending other Mudcatters at all cost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:26 PM Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, Copyright 1973 Published by HarperCollins Publishers Inc. 10 East 53rd Street New York NY USA 10022 ISBN 0-06-091587-0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Don Firth Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM There is a case of a species of arctic birds, (arctic frigate birds as I recall), that separated, one group migrating to the east, the other group migrating to the west. Many decades—and generations—later, the two groups met more or less on the other side of the earth (still in the arctic, but approximately 180° of longitude from where they parted company), and there had been sufficient changes (mutations) in the DNA of each group that they could mate, but could produce no offspring. They had become, by definition, different species. Nature experiments all the time. It doesn't take much. It's pretty random, but the mutations that increase an individual's (it always happens in an individual, not in a whole group) chances of surviving to reproduce and pass on the newly modified gene may eventually lead to the emergence of a new species. That's the way it works. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:59 PM They are still birds, Donny. When they "evovle" into something else, please let us know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM There are birds in the Pacific which have been discovered to adapt (as in evolve within a few generations to use different food sources as El Ninó comes and goes and changes the ocean temperatures..(can't remember the details right now)...These birds are not 'teaching' their young, they are physically altering their DNA in small areas. You must understand, Two Bears, that most macro-evolution, as you call it, takes many thousand and even millions of years to make significant changes. We don't just send National Geographic out to take pictures of it. ....and I beg to differ..'critical mass' is just not the correct concept to describe what species like the Japanese Macaques do in learing new behavior. These monkeys are simply learning, like children......but their preceeding evolution equipped them with the more advanded brains necessary to learn this way. Chimps and Bonobos and Orangs..etc. do similar things, because their DNA is over 90% identical to humans!. Several million years ago, there was ONE common ancestor, and anthropologists are honing in on it as fast as they can dig! *grin* DNA lines are being traced and amazing discoveries are being made every day...some DNA lines in the Neanderthals from the Caucasus Mts. are proving that Neanderthals are NOT direct ancestors of humans, but represent a branch of primates that didn't make it......and at the same time, some human DNA has been traced back 20-30 thousand years..(I believe the Basques, in Spain, have some very ancient lines) This stuff IS 'macro-evolution', on a very long scale...we are discovering where we came from, and sadly, it upsets some folks. It is interesting and useful, but what we ARE now is what is really important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: 42 Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM "Oh great more delusional new age shit." From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:28 PM although I don't have the inclination to comment on the thoughts expressed on this thread, I have read each post with interest. I find the enclosed c&p offensive and hope that this 'guest' will soon evolve into an intelligent life form. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:15 PM I think what Bill D is saying, Two Bears, is this: Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + (etc. etc. etc. etc... ) = Macro Evolution (Sorry, Bill, for interpreting your words. But this seemed like a good way to visualize it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Don Firth Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:05 AM But GUEST, whether you like it or not, we are still apes (and when I say "we," that includes you). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM Carol...that IS approximately what I am saying...*smile*..(I'll never master the art of succinct exposition) ....but I don't think Two Bears idea of 'micro-evolution' is the same as what I suggest. He seems to state that species were created at sometime in the past in essentially a finished form, and then change in small ways (growing taller...etc.) This is essentially what Lamarck proposed "The inheritance of acquired characteristics". ("critical mass").... It is this interpretation that has been in disrepute for quite awhile now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM The original use of the "100th Monkey" term described the fact that in a population of monkeys or sheep, in various examples, a learned trait (washing food before eating it) would be taught by individuals to other individuals, but at a certain point (when enough individuals had acquired that knowledge) it would leap to new individuals without being individually taught -=- they would acquire the behavior as though by wireless transmission, just by subscribing to the species consciousness. In the examples of monkeys, it was reported that when the practice of washing fruit before eating it (to avoid sand in teeth, I suppose) was started up on an island chain, and taught to more and mpre individuals, the behaviour suddenly showed up in the same species on a nearby but separate island without normal transmission between individuals . In the case of sheep it was the learned behavior of rolling across a cattle-grate designed to prevent them from escaping from a pasture. Reportedly this behaviour started in southern England and suddenly began to appear hundreds of miles to the north without any contact between the two sheep populations. I don't recall any assertions in the literature I have read that discusses the impact of such transmissions on inherited traits. As far as I recall, the point being made had to de with the mechanisms of communicating awareness. The concept was popularized (but not originated) by Ken Keyes. Here's an interesting article by Elaine Myers on the topic. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM I think the miracle of the brain is grossly overestimated compared to the miracle of thought generated by the spirit. But that's just me, and I have learned not to get too fussy about people who use the word "brain" when they mean mind. Given that remearkable forebearance on my part, :>)....here's a fine quote from the author who first coined the Hundredth Monkey expression: "If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." - Lyall Watson, In Philosophy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM The man who first coined the insight that tose ignorant of history will be forced to relive it was George Santayana. A few telling excerpts from his writings: "My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety toward the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." On My Friendly Critics," Soliloquies in England, 1922 "Faith in the supernatural is a desparate wager made by man at the lowest ebb of his fortunes." "Supernaturalism," Little Essays, No. 108 "Each religion...necessarily contradicts every other religion, and probably contradicts itself...Religions, like languages, are necessary rivals. What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak. "Supernaturalism," Little Essays, No. 23 "Civilization is perhaps approaching one of those long winters that overtake it from time to time. Romantic Christendom - picturesque, passionate, unhappy episode - may be coming to an end. Such a catastrophe would be no reason for despair." Character and Opinion in the United States. 1920 "Religion is the natural reaction of the imagination when confronted by the difficulties in a truculent world." Atlantic Monthly, 1953 "The Bible is literature, not dogma." Introduction to the Ethics of Spinoza, 1910 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM "Remembering the past does not preclude you from repeating it anyway." Bill D (I just invented that one) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:42 PM " I think the miracle of the brain is grossly overestimated compared to the miracle of thought generated by the spirit." I'm not sure I understand the significance of that, Amos.... that is, I don't know what is meant for 'spirit' to generate thought. If your forebearance up there means that you prefer 'brain' to refer to a mass of grey matter, and "spirit" to its processes, that is a reasonable, but not profound distinction. If you mean 'spirit' to refer to some intangible essence that overlays and 'moves' brain processes, it is a more meaningful, but debatable, distinction. (I retyped that about 4 times, trying to word it clearly.) It's a funny thing about language....sometimes, when we **name** something, we seem to think it is automatically endowed with existence. I have met folks who treated Kant's TUPA (the Transcendental Unity of Pure Apperception) as some sort of entity...and a couple who thought one could perform Husserl's "Eidetic Reduction" as though singing a song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM Bill: A series of switches, no matter how convoluted, cannot be a true source of an impulse, a communication, a thought; all it can do is act out a reaction or a programmatic predetermined series of steps. The argument that places the brain as the source of human thought likes to believe that the reason we haven't figured out how this happens is just that the switching system is too complex to understand just yet. The notion that ability, intention and the source of thought are possibly of a different order of qualitym not just more complex in quantity, is heretical to the materialist or the mechanist. Nevertheless I believe it is the path of explanation which MOST clarifies the situation. A |
