BS: Matter and Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM

Even an atom has a living spirit. It would not exist if it didn't. A group of associated atoms have a group spirit.

Aloha nui loa Little Hawk; my brother.

Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit.

But, hey, I know you'll never accept that notion! (grin) I wouldn't have accepted it once either. Nor would Two Bears have accepted it before he had an experience that transformed his outlook.

Absolutely correct! For most of my life I was a convinced athiest, and seriously thought religious or spiritual people were crazy.

Then one evening in December 1996; I was meditating to direct healing energy into a badly mangled foot; I had been meditating for well over an hour, and I heard a soft pop in my chest, and I found myself near the ceiling looking down on my own body. That OBE gave me confirmation of life after death, and a spiritual awakening. and I found that my former life was the crazy one not the mystics that had experiences.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:25 PM

My point is that you can't have it both ways. If you use Kirlian effects for the spiritualist position then this only makes sense as an argument pro spirit as different from matter. I have argued with that position and nothing else. If Little Hawk calls my Kirlian argument a fallacy it just shows that he has little understanding of scientific argumentation.

But they aren't different, Just different states of the same thing much the same wah water can go through three states solid, liquid and vapor.

Physical matter is just a more dense and solid form that what is perceived as spirit. "Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit."

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:36 PM

People like the young medical student who directly experienced the instant healing of an painful month-old athletic injury (which doctor's prescriptions had done little to relieve) as I laid my hands on his shoulder for a minute, using HUNA spiritual/energetic techniques. He was so relieved and impressed he attended the HUNA workshop I gave with Two Bears a couple weeks later, and has since been using his new techniques with great success - from the healing of his girlfriend's sprained ankle a couple weeks ago, to finding exactly the accomodations he wanted at the university campus this fall.

Daylia IS telling you the truth.

I have seen many of these instant healings with my own eyes.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

And there ya have it! Aloha nui loa, Two Bears! And Mahalo too.

(those are greetings in Hawaiian...)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:58 AM

linguistic constructions which are essentially about the mind of the proponent (Bill)

That's what it is and it can be very comforting to those sharing such a view. I have no problem at all with such constructions as explanations of the world.

But all too often people fond of such constructions step out of their safe area and make factual claims. Only and exactly from that moment on I have something to say.

Daylia, I agree with you that science is bound to find new things, new approaches, new theories. But the standards of evidence and the principles of sound methods will not change. Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

Open your mind and heart and you will have real and unambiguous experiences.
There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:27 AM

There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer

Well, I do think critically, Wolfgang, and "belief" (ie putting blind faith in something) has got nothing to do with it. WHen I eat my lunch, for example, I do not need to "believe" it will relieve my hunger, or scientifically acceptable schematic data-sheets "proving" that it nourishes my body. I just know I'm not hungry anymore after I eat, and that my body stays healthy. Eating my lunch "works", whether or not I "believe" in it or understand it scientifically.

It's the same with HUNA. It works - and I'm not going to argue about why or how, because in the end it really doesn't matter. IT's the results that matter!

I felt HUNA instantly heal a slipped disc in my back I'd been suffering with for years as TWo Bears passed me mana loa (spiritual life-force energy), all the way from Tennesseee to Ontario. Do you think I care one iota HOW it worked to move that disc and realign those vertebrae? Notta chance! That long-standing debilitating pain is gone, I can move easily and freely again and I am so VERY grateful! And I know that no doctor, chiropractor, surgeon or scientist could possibly duplicate that instant healing!

I watched HUNA and acupuncture heal my concrete-working buddy's sciactic nerve in a matter of hours, after he'd been doped up on morphine etc and almost completey immoblized for months. I felt - and watched - HUNA alone heal young Robert's shoulder that day. These are only 3 examples of the many MANY HUNA healings and other workings I've had the pleasure of participating in and witnessing this year.   

Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

That's why I'm so excited to have an up-and-coming young medical scientist among my successful HUNA students. He does not have a lifetime of "anti-metaphysical" scientific conditioning blocking his ability or desire to understand how HUNA works! He KNOWS it does, he has the shoulder, the girlfriend and the apartment to prove it. I'm sure he'll keep me abreast of the latest scientific developments over the years.

No, HUNA healings do not require either "belief" or scientific / intellectual understanding. All that's required is the emotional readiness, at a deep subconscious level - to let go of whatever ails you and accept healing.

For example, Robert had never met me, never even heard of HUNA before that day he walked into the store where I was working in severe pain, looking for herbal remedies to help his shoulder. The 3 doctor's prescriptions he'd been on for weeks were having very little effect. I was moved with compassion when I saw the pain on his face, even though he was a complete stranger - I do know first-hand what athletic injuries to a joint feel like! So I spontaneously offered him HUNA to try to help ease the pain. He was so desperate he was willing to try just about anything at that point.

It worked!!! It felt like a flow fire coming through my hands that day, I'd never felt it quite so strong before. IT felt wonderful, to both of us! I watched him move that shoulder in several complete wide circles after a minute or so, where it had been almost completely immobilized moments before.

I was pretty amazed myself! But I told him NOT to go back to lifting weights for a while, and to use the liniments he'd just bought. I gave him the information about the up-coming HUNA workshop in case he wanted to learn more about the technique he'd just experienced.

Well, he walked out of that store with his eyes glued to that HUNA flyer like it was the Penthouse Pet of the Month or something. And he DID go back to weightlifting that very night - and he told me a couple weeks ago his shoulder has never bothered him again - in fact it's never been better.

Now, it doesn't always happen that way, of course.   A week later I was at a drumming circle with a very overweight, stressed out, crying, drugged up (on Percodans) woman who was complaining constantly about her arthritic knee. I offered her HUNA, she accepted. I asked her which knee was hurting, and she said "Oh, it's both knees ... and my back ... and my hip .... and I have diabetes ... and high blood pressure ... and fibromyalgia ... and a heart condition ...."

ANd with every complaint she listed, her eyes grew brighter and her face lit up. She was just beaming with pleasure when she finished her long list of ailments!

Now I knew right then the HUNA would be ineffective, because she was in no way ready for healing. It was so obvious she LIKED being sick! Her illnesses paid off for her -- kept her eligible for disability cheques, gave her lots of pitying attention etc. But I'd promised, so I laid my hands on her knees anyway and started the deep breathing for a HUNA healing, using exactly the same technique I had with Robert. There was barely a twitch of response, and very little effect except that she could move the knee a little tiny bit farther when I stopped.

The only difference between her and Robert was that Robert didn't want the pain! That pain was not "serving" him at all in his own mind, while her pain certainly "served" her. He wanted the healing, while deep down inside she didn't. Simple.

WHen science is finally able to explain these things, perhaps THAT will be the real miracle!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:40 AM

Just talking about HUNA has got me all fired up with enthusiasm again here, and a thought just occured to me ... when science IS able to explain how HUNA and similiar techniques work, will the "price" of that scientific investigation be losing something intrinsically human, intangible and irreplacable? Look what Mark Twain says about rainbows ...

We have not the reverent feeling for the rainbow that the savage has, because we know how it is made. We have lost as much as we gained by prying into that matter.
- A Tramp Abroad

But then again ....

One can enjoy a rainbow without necessarily forgetting the forces that made it.
- "Queen Victoria's Jubilee"

Thanks for listening to my musings,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:52 AM

Daylia, I agree with you that science is bound to find new things, new approaches, new theories. But the standards of evidence and the principles of sound methods will not change. Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

The problem is that IF a scientist discovers and reports something not accepted by the other scientists (peer review); the scientists reputation is MUD, and they do not receive research grants, or are asked to submit papers.

I wish scientists would explore the edge of known science; but about 95% of them will not. ;-(

There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer.

Of course there is. techniques either work or they do not. I opened my mind and heart and began exploring mysticism. If this did not work; I would not be wasting my time or life force.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:08 AM

I was pretty amazed myself! But I told him NOT to go back to lifting weights for a while, and to use the liniments he'd just bought. I gave him the information about the up-coming HUNA workshop in case he wanted to learn more about the technique he'd just experienced.

Daylia; do you remember what I told you when you when you asked if the shock and awe wears off (after you observed the instant healing of your mothers knee? I don't think the amazement EVER wears off.

One of the instant healings I witnessed was Tammy F. The report available on my website is copied below.

-----
The healing of Tammy F's hand
by Two Bears

In June 2001; I was at the laundry mat (doing laundry) when I heard a lady scream outside. I went out to see what was wrong, and she told me she had injured her thumb and hand at work two days earlier, and had been unable to move her thumb since the accident. I picked up her laundry baskets and carried them inside for her.

Once inside; I introduced myself and told her that I was an energy healer, and offered to try to help heal her hand. Tammy was not a skeptic; she was a disbeliever in energy healing, She also stated that her doctor had reported the only way to improve the condition of her hand was to have surgery to repair the nerves and tendons.

I replied saying "if the energy does not help; it will not do any harm", so she held her hand out for me to work with it, I held her hand between my hands. About 30 seconds into the healing she asked how my hands get so hot. I replied "That is the energy.". 1 minute into the healing we both observed redness running up her arm. After sending energy into her injured thumb and hand for 3 - 4 minutes; I released her hand and asked how her hand felt.

At first she moved her thumb tentatively, and opened her mouth in amazement, then she wiggled her thumb almost normally. Then her expression was "Damn! This is cool!"
-----

In the space of 5 minutes her world view shifted dramaticaly. She went from a complete debunker "I don;t believe in any of that crap" to a person that accepted the miracle that happened to her own hand.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:26 AM

Musical interlude ....

    Through Your Hands

E                      A
You were dreaming on a park bench
E                         A
About a broad highway somewhere
          E             A
Where the music from the carillon
          E                   A
Seemed to hurl your heart out there
         E          A
Past the scientific darkness
         E             A
Past the fireflies that float
      E             A
To an angel bending down
             E             A
To wrap you in her warmest cloak



And you ask What am I not doing
                G#m
She says your voice cannot command
            F#m
She says in time you will move mountains
            B                  E   A   E   A
And it will come through your hands


E                      A
Still your angle for an option
          E             A
Still you argue for your case
          E             A
Like you wouldn't know a burning bush
       E               A
If it blew up in your face
   E                A
We dream about the future
   E            A
We scheme about the past
    E             A
When just a simple reaching out
      E                   A
Could build a bridge that lasts



And you ask what am I not doing
                G#m
She says your voice cannot command
            F#m
She says in time you will move mountains
            B                  E   A   E   A
And it will come through your hands


SOLO


E                      A
So whatever your hands find to do
    E                     A
You must do with all your heart
          E                A
There are thoughts enough to blow men's minds
    E                   A
And tear great worlds apart
          E                A
There's a Healing Touch that finds you
    E                           A
On that broad highway somewhere
      E                   A
To lift you as high as Music flyin
E               A
Thru the angels hair


A
So don't worry what you are not doing
          G#m
Cause your voice cannot command
    F#m
In time you will move mountains
       B                E   A   E   A
It will come through your hands


-David Crosby, John Hiatt

Whistling Moon Traveler Music/Careers BMG Music(BMI)
From "Thousand Roads"
Atlantic Records 1993

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM

Somehow the chord changes didn't line up with the lyrics the way I typed it originally - they're 1-2 words ahead of where they should be, just about all the way through.

Wish I could fix it. Sorry bout that. :-(

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:11 PM

*daylia*...if you type
if you type                     

^EYou were ^Adreaming on a park bench


it will put the chord right above where you want it...(I think)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

like this

^EYou were ^Adreaming on a park bench

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:16 PM

you put the 'sup' thing where you want the letter to appear ...'sup' is short for 'superscript'...as you might guess, there is also a _sub

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:42 AM

Can't Prove This, and it is thus largely theological:

But it is my opinion that matter and spirit can never entirely interact at their true potential until the coming of a "New Heaven" and "New Earth" that takes place within us and this universe (perfecting mankind's intellectual and spritual capacity) and purging the planet and universe of all evil.

We ALREADY have a GUIDANCE SYSTEM for the Spiritual Capacity (As I have discovered) for total equality and world peace on the planet earth IF all of us were tuned into and reacted to the infinite mind and its order and consciousness which is complete enlightnement and perfection(i.e. God)

I hear people say that world peace isn't possible, and I used to actually belief that. But Now I know that peace for humanity IS POSSIBLE when and if we, as a race, are to acheive the equality and righteousness of the infinite mind of God which produces this harmonious outcome.

i.e. Human Beings will have to be changed into the full likeness of God and Reconciled to Him As An Equal in Both Morals and Intellect, By doing away with the Old, the NEW comes into being, and is reconciled to perfection as God the creator ALREADY IS.

The Kingdom of Heaven is, "WITHIN US" (i.e. we have everything necessary that we need to make the word a perfect and intergrated paradise of peace and enquality; (I think George Burns Said this to John Denver is the Movie: "Oh God" The MESSAGE IN THE MOVIE WAS THAT GOD GAVE MAN EVERYTHING HE NEEDED TO MAKE THE WORLD AND UNIVERSE WORK!!) this is what the master intelligentce grants us, but what do we do: nothing of the sort)

SINCE THIS KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ISN'T WORKING (the one currently within us on this planet) THROUGH GOD AND HIS RECONCILATION AND JUDGEMENT A NEW ONE WILL COME INTO BEING WHICH IS THE NEW HEAVEN.

However, mankind has not evolved to the spritual point of understanding his own significance in relation to God and the Infinite, If there was such an understanding, the destruction of the earth and all of its elements, would not have to occur,

And I would respectfully differ with Little Hawk's Comment that People are basically good: If they were there would be no need for a new earth, I would say we as a planet are entirely evil and grossly spritually inmature in the eyes of the infinite mind (or creator who is perfect in all respects and interactions)


This is the reconcilation that is discribe in most religions, and the belief in a heavenly state is which humans are evolved to the God-head into a state of perfection, able to communcate and understand directly the laws of the universe, morality and God himself. Without error and without blemish


We are spiritual beings first and only human beings second, and because we haven't reversed and understood our primary rolls the mysteries of the universal cannot be manifest and and controlled through us.

It will be up to God to distroy the knowledge as in past civilizations. And create the new being with an interconnectedness to the God and the perfected new universe to which we will be a part (i.e. an equal)

Just An Opinion, As well as an ethical argument for the judgement that is to come,

on this very sinful and spritually immature planet, with which the mind of God laid out perfectly for our use and benefit, but which man cannot comprehend and make work for himself/herself.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Didn't mean to imply everyone was going to Hell, Just that evil will have to be purged in order to achive equality and Perfection.

And, also, if there is to be such perfection things are gonna have to change drastically as well as are the people of the earth.

I realize religious views cannot be proven or disproven, and also that I might have strayed a bit from the topic, (AND ALSO BE WRONG IN MY CONCLUSIONS)


New matter, and New Spirit through a reconciled God/Man relation was my thought. After all, it really ain't a workin' that good so far.

Wars, Violence, Immorality etc. A small cry from perfection that is the God that is within us.

Dewey (who hopes his religious expressions will not be mis-interpreted)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:14 AM

Through Your Hands


You were ^E dreamin on a ^A park bench

About a ^E broad highway some ^Awhere
                     
When the ^Emusic from the ^A carillon
         
Seemed to ^E hurl your heart out ^A there
         
Past the ^E scientific ^A darkness
      
Past the ^E fireflies that ^A float
   
To an ^E angel bending ^A down
         
To wrap you ^E in her warmest ^A cloak


^AAnd you ask What am I not doing
               
She says your ^G#m voice cannot command
            
She says in ^F#m time you will move mountains
         
And it will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A}


Still you ^E angle for an ^A option
         
Still you ^Eargue for your ^Acase
         
Like you ^E wouldn't know a^A burning bush
      
If it ^E blew up in your ^A face
   
We ^E dream about the ^A future
   
And we ^E scheme about the ^A past
   
When ^E just a simple ^A reaching out
   
Could ^E build a bridge that ^A lasts


^AAnd you ask what am I not doing
               
She says your ^G#m voice cannot command
            
She says in ^F#m time you will move mountains
         
And it will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A}


SOLO


So ^E whatever your hands ^A find to do
   
You must ^E do with all your ^A heart
         
There are ^E thoughts enough to ^A blow men's minds
   
And ^E tear great worlds ^A apart
         
There's a ^E Healing Touch that ^A finds you
   
On that ^E broad highway ^A somewhere
      
To ^E lift you as high as ^A Music flyin

^E Thru the angels ^A hair


^ASo don't worry what you are not doing
         
Cause your ^G#m voice cannot command
   
In ^F#m time you will move mountains
      
It will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A E}


-David Crosby, John Hiatt

*********************************************************************

That's better ... thanks Bill! You're wonderful! :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:27 AM

If those healings were so quick and convincing it would be easy for someone with the knowledge of research methods to conduct a study that would make it to Science or Nature. Some years later even an invitation to Stockholm might follow.

Try to contact someone with the relevant knowledge. If you are right I shall read about it in a journal and not just as case anecdotes. You can win fame. What could you lose except perhaps some illusions and even that shouldn't be considered a loss.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

Wolfgang, I would just LOVE to do that! I don't care about fame - but it would just be so rewarding to see more and more people using these easy and powerful techniques, taking responsibility for their own health instead of relying on pharmaceutical companies, learning how to heal themselves and others, proving to themselves that they CAN have everything that they need and desire and that to have these things is a birthright, awakening to their true potential as human beings. This planet would become an entirely different place! And people like yourself would finally know that this is no more of an illusion than the earth revolving around the sun. :-)

Here's a quote from Clark Wilkerson's Hawaiian Magic I used it as the intro page for my HUNA workshop handouts. This is why I finally came out of my shell this summer and did the workshop, at the risk of public ridicule and defamation ...

"One Kahuna (Priest of the Hawaiian Islands) turned to the wind and commanded aloud that it rise, blow and become strong. In minutes the wind actually increased. These men know how to use their hearts and how to use their mental bodies to create emotion, then energy, which in turn brings about manifestation. The power of the Spoken Word stems from speaking from the heart.

Not many people pray with their full hearts. This is why very few prayers are answered. People have fallen from the average forms of religion because of lack of proof which gave them doubt. The religion is not at fault. It is the fact they cannot speak and pray with their hearts or with their full mind power. They have not been trained to do so.

It is time that this planet and everyone on it be taught of these things, and that it not be held for only a few who can do it, who realize it, but do not have the ability to teach others".

Dewey, those are interesting posts. I have a few comments about your use of the words "evil" and "sinful" and the concept of "Judgment", and also about your claim However, mankind has not evolved to the spritual point of understanding his own significance in relation to God and the Infinite, If there was such an understanding, the destruction of the earth and all of its elements, would not have to occur

- I'll have to get back to you later though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

One more thought - if the repositioning of that slipped disc and vertabrae in my back was an illusion, then having it slip out of place must have been an illusion too, and so was all that pain I suffered for so long. So pick your illusions ... I know which one I prefer!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

your welcome, *daylia*...it's nice to have a trick that helps..*smile*.

and if Two Bears does also, great....I will never be opposed to feeling better, and if people leave Two Bears 'feeling better', I am glad. If I tend to reserve judgement as to the precise mechanism and causality, .....well, maybe it's just my destiny to be that way... ;>0

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:25 AM

Daylia,

by now you should know from reading my many posts that I see a possible illusion less likely in what happens but in the interpretation. I have said ad nauseam that my issue is with the interpretation of what is observed.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM

if the repositioning of that slipped disc and vertabrae in my back was an illusion, then having it slip out of place must have been an illusion too, and so was all that pain I suffered for so long. (Daylia)

All experimenting and the cleverly thought out (placebo) control groups are usually not for (dis)proving what happens (you don't need a long study for get agreement about that) but for testing (and possibly disproving) different interpretations.

If someone says 'It did work for me, so I know spiritual energy...' a critique from a scientist usually does not attack the first part but the so I know... part.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

The word I use to refer to whatever mysterious force moved that slipped disc back into place - (and I DID feel that flow of wonderful heat down my spine, and I DID feel and hear the bones moving - *click! click!*, and then the pain was GONE!!!:-) - is mana loa or spiritual life-force energy. That's because the technique originated in ancient Hawaii, so the language of Hawaiian mysticism is the language of HUNA.

If this healing had been done in a laboratory setting, perhaps a scientist would prefer to coin new terminology from quantum physics for example, to refer to this invisible force. Wonderful! A scientific term would no doubt be more acceptable, inviting far less "attack" than a mystical one. But no matter what term is selected to refer to it, the nature of the energy itself and the "miraculous" effects it can produce would remain unchanged.

One problem I can forsee with using HUNA healing techniques as science experiments is that the results of any kind of energetic healing work depend entirely on the subconscious emotional/mental state of the healee (ie their readiness to let go of the problem and allow the healing to take place). For that reason, energetic healing work is never "guaranteed", under any circumstances. THere can be instantly "miraculous" results (ie Robert's shoulder, Tammy F's hand, my back) or none at all (as in the case of the lady at the drumming circle with her long list of ailments that caused her pain, but earned her MANY benefits).

I think it would take many years of very patient experimentation, under controlled conditions to document scientifically how and when HUNA healings work -- and probably many MANY more years after that to figure out how and why they work, using scientific terminology and methods.

Not impossible, but certainly a time-consuming endevour.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

your welcome, *daylia*...it's nice to have a trick that helps..*smile*.

Well thanks again for sharing your 'tricks' with me, you cyber-healer you!

Who's the greatest cyber-healer? Bill! Yo Bill!
Who's the charming disbeliever? Bill! Yo Bill!
Wolf may be our analyser, criticizer, synthesizer
But HAIL our chord-change synchronizer - Bill! Yo Bill!

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

If those healings were so quick and convincing it would be easy for someone with the knowledge of research methods to conduct a study that would make it to Science or Nature. Some years later even an invitation to Stockholm might follow..

The healings described happened exactly as described.

Try to contact someone with the relevant knowledge. If you are right I shall read about it in a journal and not just as case anecdotes. You can win fame. What could you lose except perhaps some illusions and even that shouldn't be considered a loss.

You are forgetting something. "I am not the lealer. The healing is done by the higher powers, and by the recepient's subconscious mind being willing to be healed.

Even if we had 100 documented instant healings; they would still be anecdotal.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:05 AM

Not impossible, but certainly a time-consuming endevour.

Don't forget costly.

One would need to have an Xray, MRI, etc then have a person hold the Xray or MRI for the chain of custody recording when the test was taken.

Then have the person receive a healing, Then run duplicate tests to demonstrate the change.

A week ago monday; I was running around to antique stores, and art galleries with a HUNA student Tiffany H. We went into this art gallery, and met an elderly lady named Peggy (I don't recall if she gave her last name) She asked Tiffany and I where we were from, and what we did, and when I said "I'm an energy healer" she asked me to work on her back because he had hurt her back while hanging a heavy painting and frame. I agreed to do what I could do to help. After a few minutes; I removed my hands from her back, and Tiffany and I continued to walk around looking at the art work. Tiffany found a painting of a japanese woman in a blue and black kimono she wanted; so she asked me to bring Peggy over to buy the painting. I asked Peggy how she was feeling, and she said "I can't believe the pain is gone. Then every person (including the owners of the art gallery) were told about the healing of her back.

Last July; I did a healing for my neighbor. He was almost killed when the car he was in was hit by a train. He spent more than a year in a full body cast in Vanderbilt, and he has had back pain for the past 30 years. One of my neighbors told him that I was an energy healer, and he didn't believe it so he went to the property manager and asked "What is this about Two Bears being a healer?" She told him that I was a healer (because I had done healings for her oldest daughter, and a few other people on the property, then she called me and asked me to come over to the office. I went over and Dean asked me about whether I am a healer or not, and I offered to do a healing there on the spot. Later he told me that he had 7 or 8 hours of relief, and the caustic pain killers he usually took only gave him about 3 hours of relief.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 05:46 AM

I am an energy healer......I am not the lealer. (Two Bears)

Even if we had 100 documented instant healings; they would still be anecdotal. (Two Bears)

Not would, could! Number is not the relevant factor, proper design and reporting is. Even 10,000 reports of the style in this and similar threads would still be anecdotes. 20 to 40 cases (depending upon which power you aim at) with the proper design and reporting could be very convincing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:04 AM

*daylia*...why, thank you for the cheer!....hovever, I cheat! MY secret of 'healing' is to only do tricks that I am sure of, and that I can replicate...*grin*

I can also show YOU how to do them. Now if you could show ME how to hear, feel & see the things you & Two Bears do, we'd have something! (Others have tried...I think my antenna was damaged when a copy of Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" fell on it in 1966....)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:32 AM

MY secret of 'healing' is to only do tricks that I am sure of, and that I can replicate...*grin*

Bill my dear, I also know without a doubt that my "tricks" work, as long as the person at the receiving end is ready to allow the energy to do it's thing. If you are genuinely interested, you (and anyone else here) are MOST welcome to PM me anytime for a demonstration, healing work or more information.

I can also teach you, in about 5-10 minutes, how to practice these simple and enjoyable "tricks" yourself - to benefit not only yourself but your family and friends, your pets, your plants or anyone/thing else you'd care to work with.

Unfortunately, unlike html tags life-force energy itself does not lend itself to being "typed out" or otherwise presented via the written word, for you to gaze at and study. But it does lend itself, most excellently and beneficially, to direct physical experience.

So, like Nike says - Just Do It! What have you got to lose? I guarantee you that life-force energy IS the Real Thing. The worst it could possibly do for you is nothing ... and that depends totally on you and your subconsious mental/emotional state. So anytime you feel ready to bite the bullet, just let me know. I'd LOVE to work with you!   :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM

I can also show YOU how to do them. Now if you could show ME how to hear, feel & see the things you & Two Bears do, we'd have something! (Others have tried...I think my antenna was damaged when a copy of Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" fell on it in 1966....)

Bill:

When I give a workshop in your area; contact the person who is the scheduling the workshop, and tell them that I have invited you to attend the workshop as my guest.

That offer is only for you, and Wolfgang.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:13 AM

Daylia, I was having esoteric brain drain, as well as post happy euphoria.

But I did discover that the universe is perfect, and that a perfectly enlighten human being can live in peace with other perfectly enlighten human beings. The infinite mind creates perfect peace and equality of all humans, and also provides interactive discernment in how to make peace possible among all equal likeminded individuals.

We are spiritual beings First, and Human Beings Second. unfortunately Our World Does't Work, Because we are not tuned into the "real" world, just our petty egocentric, singular minded dissident world.

God is Perfect, as is the universe, and we too could obtain perfection through the intergration of our higher selves, serving the universal purpose of this perfect and higher force.

This is why I belive in the New Earth (new people or enlightended people, or judged people) and a New Heaven (people dwelling in peace and perfection in the likeness and wholeness of God himself, the current heaven does not contain mankind, but in the new heaven mankind will be brought into the fold)

Again, the above is all theological and I cannot prove it. Just a Wide-eyed Theory, However maybe if we are going to evolve, the would also have to be judgement as not everyone would be willing to evolve, (all theology talk about free choice after all, and not everyone WANTS to be nice)

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

Some may like to read this short press release about a neuropsychological theory explaining what makes some people experience something they describe as an aura?

Dr Jamie Ward, author of the study, says: "A popular notion is that some people have a magical ability to detect the hidden emotions of others by seeing a colourful 'aura' or energy field that they give off. Our study suggests a different interpretation. These colours do not reflect hidden energies being given off by other people, rather they are created entirely in the brain of the beholder."

The reference to the full article is found at the end of the press release.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:51 PM

All visual images are "products of the brain of the beholder".

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of synaesthesia. However, this statement --

"Rather than assuming that people give off auras or energy fields that can only be detected by rigged cameras or trained seers, we need only assume that the phenomenon of synaesthesia is taking place."

-- seems to assume there are a whole lot of synaesthetics around.

Synaesthesia doubtless explains some aura sightings, but assuming that it explains all is not exactly scientific.

Bogus reductionism turns science into just another belief system. Carl Sagan for one made some pretty fanciful explanations that I think did science no service.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:44 PM

I disagree that all visual images are products of the brain of the beholder.

I have discussed numerous instances of out-of-body experiences with others in which they were quite capable of drumming up visual recordings while operating independently of the body. Mental images are th stuff of mental mechanism but are not built of brain-stuff. They are generated by beings using brains to anchor themselves with. Vive la difference.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:22 PM

But Amos, in order to have physically discussed them with you at all the conscious memories or "visual recordings" of these reported OBE's must have been "processed", stored, accessed etc through the person's physical brain.

Memory, including visual memory - is a function or "product" of the brain - whether the image(s) were perceived by the physical eyes in waking life, in a dream or OBE, in a vision or even a hallucination.

Hmmm, maybe "all visual images available for physical conscious perusal are a function and product of the brain" would be better?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:47 PM

But Amos, in order to have physically discussed them with you at all the conscious memories or "visual recordings" of these reported OBE's must have been "processed", stored, accessed etc through the person's physical brain.

Memory, including visual memory - is a function or "product" of the brain - whether the image(s) were perceived by the physical eyes in waking life, in a dream or OBE, in a vision or even a hallucination.


Why? IF you assume the body does the viewing and you would be unable to see without it, your argument might make sense. Memory is as much a "product" of the brain as live communication is a "product" of a telephone -- sure, it is a very complex instruemnt and you can't trace all the workings of it, and every time you pick it up someone is ocmmunicating through it -- but that doesn't mean the phone is creating the communications!!

People see perfectly well without any brain at all, if they are not too thrashed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:44 PM

Clint,

I have posted the explanation how it usually goes (for people without synesthesia) some other place in this thread. My explanation has one weak point, namely that some reports of auras are very different from the usual visual halo effects.

I was pleased to read this new explanation for it closes a gap in our understanding of aura reports. The new explanation was never meant to explain aura-like experiences in normal people.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:25 PM

Well, the statement

"Rather than assuming that people give off auras or energy fields that can only be detected by rigged cameras or trained seers, we need only assume that the phenomenon of synaesthesia is taking place."

seems rather absolute; as though it's either auras or synaesthesia, and synaesthesia explains it all.

Instead of "need only assume" he could have said "may sometimes assume."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:55 PM

the relevance I draw from the report is simply that there ARE often alternate explanations for phenomena. It does not mean the same explanation holds in every case. Synaesthesia does seem to be a working hypothesis for why some people see colors around some other people in some cases. There are various other hypotheses in other situations. What we need is to discover if & how an aura can exist no matter what the subjective state of the observer.

(*daylia*...I have been pondering some of your comments and 'offers' back up there ^ for several weeks...I almost took you up on the challenge, but have had no time and have problem with the wording. I'll PM you soon)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

I doubt that spirit matters. Matter, on the other hand, matters less when one has imbibed spirits. This whole discussion is only of any real practical value if one is here to appreciate it. If one is dead (or hasn't been born yet) it does not matter in the least. It was Descarte who said that pretty much. Thinking about the matter of the fact makes that real. Oyherwise it is not even there. The vagueness of it all is all we are discussing actually.

Matter of fact, thanks for a spirited thread.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:13 AM

Matter, on the other hand, matters less when one has imbibed spirits...

LOL! Thanks Art!

Now, does spirit matter less when one has imbibed flesh??


People see perfectly well without any brain at all, if they are not too thrashed.

Yes, I see your point Amos. And in order to have any practical physical value or relevance at all, the memory of those visual experiences / images must be stored somehow, somewhere in the physical brain's neurological "wiring" - no matter what condition that brain was in at the moment of perception; conscious, semi-conscious, super-conscious or even unconscious.

I almost took you up on the challenge, but have had no time and have problem with the wording. I'll PM you soon

Hey Bill, no probs. You seem to be doing just peachy as it is! And if you'd ever like to try a bit of cream on those peaches .... :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:19 PM

And in order to have any practical physical value or relevance at all, the memory of those visual experiences / images must be stored somehow, somewhere in the physical brain's neurological "wiring" - no matter what condition that brain was in at the moment of perception; conscious, semi-conscious, super-conscious or even unconscious.


You really love your wetware, doncha? :D. How about this -- visual memories are recreatable potentials of energy created by spiritual beings in seeking certain experiences conveniently labeled as "past". They are non-material potentialities until regenerated by the spiritual viewpoint, at which point htey are re-created in very high-frequency patterns of mental energy witht he postulated dimensionality of the viewpoint and thus viewed. The act of viewing and interacting with memory CAN (but does not necessarily) cause the stimulation of the being's connection to the brain, producing electro-chemical brain responses in some instances.

This applies to non-traumatic memories. Images which are highly charged with physical pain or emotional duress operate slightly differently, from the view point of experience. Basic mechanism is same same.

The brain is just an external interface to the physical universe, independent of the memory process.

---

There's a perfectly good model for you which not only accounts for memory but also accounts for the occasionally stranmge phenomenon such as remember past lives, out-of-body experience (near-death or otherwise), or being able to see another person's memories without hearing about them first. The brain-as-storage-container model doesn't account for these.

IF you ar elocked in to the wetware dependent model, then you are left with the elimination of anomalous data as unreliable data. A facile solution to the cognitive dissonance presented. But not if it keeps coming up over and over.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 08:32 AM

Holy jumpin Amos, I've tried to wrap my neurons around your last post 4 times. I think I'm shorting out my wetware   help I'm droooooooowning.....

Satisfied?!? ;-)

Here's a situation similar to our "problem" here (I think) ... Imagine what might happen between two aliens who've landed on the Earth for the first time. There they are, standing beside the highway watching these odd-shaped, noisy stinky contraptions go by. One says "look look - it's a truck! It's red and it has 18 wheels!!"
The other says "no, you're wrong. It's a truck and it runs on gas and oil." The first one is a bit taken aback, thinks it over and says "but, but - it's a truck! It's red and it has 18 wheels!" The other digs his heels (or paws or fins or hooves or whatever) in even deeper and growls "no no NO. You're WRONG. It's a truck and it runs on gas and oil!!".

I do understand what you mean. Actually, it was the life-long experience of disconcerting precognitive dreams; accurate precognitive dreams - and needing to know how the h*** "I" (ie the "me" that requires a brain to interact here) could possibly have "known" what I'd seen in those dreams - that motivated me to explore spirituality in the first place. My own head had shown itself to be capable of the physically impossible, at least while sleeping. That felt so freaky and weird, even frightening - back then.

And I knew that the answers I needed were beyond the scope of either science or psychology. They still are.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,angel_baby
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:55 PM

does anyone know where to find any articles on scales?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

It's hard to keep a good thread down...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:09 PM

And I knew that the answers I needed were beyond the scope of either science or psychology. They still are.


Daylia:

That depends entirely on the school of psychology. Obviously if you stick to old-boy Skinnerian SR chains you won't find the answer to precognition, asleep or not.

If you read Maslow, Marilyn Fergusen (Aquarian Conspiracy), Henri Bergson, Richard Bach, Wayne Dyer, Dr. Larry Dossery, and on and on you will see them all pointing at a non-local model of awareness which makes non-local perception through space-time more normal looking. I suspect it takes a LOT more energy to keep knowing local and tied to the place where the wet-ware is, than it does to just know from whatever locale or point in time you choose to focus your attention. Keeping your knowing tied down to the hitching post of the body requires the maintenance of a lot of barriers that only seem to be useful.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:07 PM

Angel Baby,

Scale -- is what I'm working for !!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 09:06 PM

eeeek~! It's BACK!....

I have re-read about half of this, and I am amazed. And I guess I am so VERY glad it went away while Getaway & Craft season was upon me...I'd have blown a circuit for sure, trying to keep up with it.

And I'm still convinced..... nay, certain, that logical,linguistic equivocations are involved in many of the opinions that I take issue with.