BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!

Subject: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:08 AM

More Gay news setbacks! The Governor of New Jersey, married and with 2 children just resigned because of his extra-marital affair with another man.

Did this affect him in his governor job? Maybe not. However, he just knew that the vast MAJORITY of people do not want this type of character in leadership.

I hope the door doesn't hit him on the way out. Anyone so obsessed with his own sexual identity is way too distracted to be a leader. Maybe he can go to work in a flower shop.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:55 AM

"However, he just knew that the vast MAJORITY of people do not want this type of character in leadership"

Is that what he said or is that just your spin on the issue ??

I can see him wanting to get out of office just to avoid the anti-gay harrassment that's bound to come. Like Bill Clinton I think who he has sex with is between him and his wife.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: el ted
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:57 AM

Whichever way you cut it Wesley, the man is at best an adulterer.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:17 AM

So were most of our Presidents. Having an affair was wrong reguardless of gender. But it doesn't mean it's any of my business and it doesn't mean he can't be a good governor.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

I think it's only the half-vast bunch of people who really worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:06 PM

Some of you people are great spin doctors, but you really don't have a clue.

Read the story in the press. The reason he resigned is NOT because he is gay. He reason he resigned is NOT because he had an affair. The reason he resigned is because he was threatened with a sexual harrassement suit.   McGreevey also made some very questionable moves by giving the man he had the relationship some well paying jobs within his administration. He said that he is resigning because of "circumstances surrounding the affair and its likely impact on my family and my ability to govern." He said he did not want to leave the governor's office "vulnerable to rumors, false allegations and threats of disclosure."

For those of you not familiar with NJ politics, McGreevey has been under the microscope in recent weeks. Two of his associates have been hit with indictiments - one for extortion and another for a bizarre scheme involving hiring prostitutes to have sex with witnesses in a federal investigation of this associates business. His fundraising has been brought into question.

I liked McGreevey's work on helping to keep taxes in line, and he was a strong supporter for senior citizens. He was horrible in cutting back on arts funding and I did not care for his politicial practices. I think most citizens of New Jersey will agree with me, his sexual orientation has nothing to do with his ability to serve the state.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:16 PM

Thanks, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

Ron Olesko...that was a courageous post. It may propel you past the average run-of-the-mill Mudcatter toward the exclusive club of "truth-seeker". Lonely there. Only other member extant is artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:38 PM

I read all that in the NYT today, it also mentions a little matter of his being threatened with a £5,000,000 law suit from his ex lover.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:43 PM

Good to read he was not quitting for being gay. That should not be a reason for quitting. We have one openly gay conservative prime minister of one Land (our equivalent to governor), one openly gay social democrat prime minister (and both have won elections, after they have made it public), we have an openly gay party leader of the (conservative) liberals, some well know Green gays.

It should neither be a benefit nor a disadvantage.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:31 PM

I think he resigned because he doesn't want to be Governor when Al Quaeda nukes Newark.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

aahhh..ok, then..I see. A sleazy politician get caught! NJ will be well rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:02 PM

"sleaze" might be a bit harsh.   Very opportunistic is a better description.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM

I was born and raised in NJ but haven't lived there in many years. I find this story especially interesting because McGreevey is a graduate of my high school. (I never knew him -- I'm quite a few years older.)

From what I've read and heard, the ex-lover has a hell of a nerve suing for "sexual harassment." He would not have been a state employee at all had he not been "sponsored" by McGreevey, and he lost his job only when the potential for embarrassment/exposure arose as he proved to be less than fully qualified for his post as head of "Homeland Security" for the state.

Is it harassment to lose your job because the boss *stops* having sex with you?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:13 PM

PoppaGator, the answer to your last question is "YES". From what we are reading, he has a strong case that he was given a job because of sexual favors. Losing a job because the party refuese to oblige is strong evidence.   Of course it is still unconfirmed since the details of what this potential case (or blackmail)involved has not been made public.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM

Wesley is right that many of our Presidents were having extra-marital sexual affairs. We never knew about it in the past, because there was no internet and modern communications as there is today. Bill Clinton will go down in history as the first one to open the presidential fly to the American public. I agree with Ron Olesko. It was the financial scandals and not the sexual orientation that is forcing McGreevey to resign. I hope that fact that the man he had sex with was an Israeli does not bring CarolC and Jack The Sailor to this thread. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 02:24 PM

Bill Clinton was not the one that opened his presidental fly to the American Public. There were plenty of Republicans who pulled it down for him and did their best to make a big issue out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM

Yet another example of Martin's latent homosexuality. Why do you think I have been porking his wife up the ass? Because that's where Marting takes it!

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM

Ron: Until you last post I did not know that Monica Lewinsky was a Republican LOL      SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if she was!!!!   It would also surprise me if Bill was the first president to see "action" in the Oval Office. The Republican Menace has a lurid fascination with stories like this! They enjoyed Bill's BJ even more than he did!!

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: KateG
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Ron has hit the nail on the head. I only hope that the tawdry political details surrounding McGreevy's resignation don't make even harder for gays to obtain full acceptance in public and private life. Old school machine politics is alive and well here in Joisey.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,not casting stones
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:08 PM

Ron Olesko, as a fellow Jerseyite, I agree that he was doing a fairly good job. Got off to a slow start in 2002 but I've been encouraged by what he's accomplished in the past year or so. I'm sorry this has happened.

I find it interesting that there's a) SHOCK and OUTRAGE at whatever the behavior is, b) a call for public condemnation, and finally c) a clamoring for all the dirty little details which will be discussed over and over.

Ain't people funny?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:20 PM

Back to the ex(?)-lover and his harrassment claim.

He had already left state employment by the time this controversy emerged. Although McGreevey may have "fired" him, he also arranged for a better-paying job ($110,000 per annum) in the private sector.

What does this guy have to complain about? Looks to me that he was just trying to collect blackmail by threatening to go public. Now that it is public, what's left for him?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:24 PM

Stoned Guest - I don't think that the shock is over THE BEHAVIOR, the shock is that his resignation was unexpected and the mess he is in. What calls from public condemnation? I hear more expressions of sympathy and admiration.   

Clamoring for dirty little details? There are always people who come running to watch auto accidents. There are always people who enjoy seeing a public official end his or her career in scandal. Here in New Jersey, we call those people - Republicans.

Frankly, I was never a big fan of his. I thought his cutting of the arts budgets was a crime. True, there are other issues that might be more important, but that one hits home. Without outlets for creative expression, expecially for youth, the attention is diverted to other avenues, not all of them safe. I honestly think that in New Jersey a gay politician would not have his or her sexuality become a stumbling block issue.   The issues in New Jersey center more on political favors and influence peddling.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:29 PM

Who cares?

Actually, I'd vote for him. Not because he's gay, but because he had the decency to admit that something that he did would probably detract from his ability to do the job that he was elected for.

Honesty in a politician?! There is hope yet (but, if you don't mind, I'll remain a cynical bastard!)...

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:25 PM

My reading of the news reports partly agrees with Ron's. I believe the resignation was definitely pre-emptive. Problem is, we don't know what the guv is trying to pre-empt.

He apparently has been under investigation by federal officials for financial shenanigans for awhile now. The shock wasn't so much that he resigned, as it was the reason he gave for resigning, in light of the building investigation against.

BTW, the financial shenanigans included him hiring his two largest campaign contributors, as I recall.

So, was he resigning to pre-empt a sexual harrassment suit? Or was he using the resignation using "the gay card" to pre-empt the announcement of a federal indictment on the financial wrongdoing, and hang onto the office until after the November election?

It is clear we don't know the whole story. However, it is just as clear that this was all worked out in advance with the Democratic party leaders in Jersey and at the national level, prior to his resignation, otherwise he wouldn't have resigned effective AFTER the November election.

I don't know how you define sleaze Ron, but this looks like the epitome of it to me.

But then, it IS Jersey.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

Guest, you are doing a lot of spin doctoring yourself, and you are basically lieing in your last post. YOU even stated we do not know what the guy was trying to pre-empt.   McGreevey NEVER said he was resigning because of the federal investigation. In fact, McGreevey himself is NOT the subject of ANY investigation. Please be careful when you type! McGreeveys associates have been indicted, but the cases do not directly involve McGreevey. McGreevey is to be blamed for hanging around with the wrong crowd and making stupid decisions.

You also make a huge assumption that McGreevey "worked this out" with Democratic Party leaders. The man isn't stupid, he isn't going to offer up the office to another party. However, the Democratic Party in NJ (which I guess I am a member of)is very screwed up. There really isn't a clear candidate for the Democrats.

I never said that McGreevey's actions weren't sleezy. Using his office to get his "friend" a high paying job, which apprently he was not even qualified for, is wrong.   Guest, if you say "sleeze" in conjunction with his admitting that he is gay, or for having an affair, then you need to take a long look at yourself in a mirror.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:20 PM

"lieing" might be a bit harsh. No matter how you misspell it.

As to my saying I thought this was sleezy, I meant in terms of the behind the scenes politicking going on that lead up to this long term until after the election three month from now resignation, Ron. That is the definition of political sleeze in my book. I also didn't fall off the pig truck yesterday. He could easily be playing the gay card, to deflect attention away from the real wrongdoing, which he can be prosecuted and jailed for, which are the financial shenanigans.

And if you think that the state and national Democratic leadership didn't know this was coming down the pike, and force the resignation, I've got new voter machines from Florida you might be interested in buying...

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:38 PM

From today's story in the Washington Post:

"McGreevey said the circumstances around his affair with a man and its effects on his family threatened to undermine his "ability to govern."

Now, if having an extramarital affair and being gay is such a bloody constitutional crisis that he has to resign to rectify it, why would he wait three fucking months to leave the job, when he says the gay affair is going to undermine his ability to govern?

Now call me a liar if you will Ron, but that sounds pretty damn fishy to me.

From the same article:

"McGreevey spokeswoman Juliet Johnson said..."He made the decision to allow for an orderly transition. It's absurd to think you can hand over the reins in just days."

Uh hello, politicians who are forced to resign do it in days all the time, including the friggin' president of the US, Tricky Dick. I mean c'mon, we are supposed to believe an orderly transition can't happen for three, count 'em folks, THREE MONTHS???

Gimme a break.

Despite the fact that it is just plain odd and bizarre, not to mention a violation of the trust of office to appoint a foreign poet an "advisor" to New Jersey's homeland security department. I mean this is in the wake of god damn 9/11, and the governor is handing over the office to his gay boyfriend? What the hell is up with that? Again, from today's Post article:

"Cipel was named to the newly created homeland security post without any background check or official announcement."

Now doesn't THAT inspire confidence in this great governor?

Oh, and of course, it is a Democrat that will stand in for him for the rest of his term, because he timed the resignation to take place AFTER the November election, and by New Jersey law, that means the 2nd in command in the state, the Democrat Senate president, takes over. If this weasel dick leaves office before the election, his successor must be chosen by special election.

Again, according to the Post article:

"If McGreevey were to leave office before Sept. 3, a special election would be held."

Oh yeah, and I suppose the Post is "lieing" like I am, when they said this today too:

"Scandal marred McGreevey's tenure following questions over a series of questionable appointments, including Cipel's.

McGreevey also came under fire in 2002 for hiring a state police superintendent who had a criminal record. Last year, two former aides were targeted in a federal probe investigating whether they used their political ties to secure business for their billboard company.

This year, a Democratic fund-raiser and former high school classmate of McGreevey's was charged with trying to extort campaign donations from a farmer in exchange for help in selling his land.

Last month, the governor's commerce secretary quit amid reports he funneled money to businesses he owned with family members, and McGreevey's top campaign donor was charged with conspiracy, obstructing a federal investigation and promoting prostitution."

But hey--it must be this gay thing it's all about, right?

PUHLEEZ!!! Do you think I just fell off the dead voter registration list yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:44 PM

No investigation? Party leader did not know ahead of time??

check these out:


July 15, 2004

McGreevey Aide Accused of Dirty Tricks
New Jersey Gov. Jim McGreevey's "top fund-raiser -- and a chief architect of his rise to power -- was accused yesterday of hiring prostitutes in an attempt to blackmail witnesses cooperating with a grand-jury investigation into his political fund-raising activities," the Philadelphia Inquirer reports.
"Frustrated by the middlemen's failure to find a call girl," Charles Kushner "found one on his own, prosecutors said. He allegedly drove to New York, hired a prostitute he knew, and arranged to have her videotaped having sex with one government witness."
Link | Related News | TrackBack (0)
Related Categories: Political Strategy



July 16, 2004

In New Jersey, Democrats Consider Dumping McGreevey
"As prosecutors tighten their investigative grip around close allies of" New Jersey Gov. Jim McGreevey (D), "Democrats are reviving talks about replacing McGreevey as their candidate next year," the Philadelphia Inquirer reports.
Their preferred candidate: Sen. Jon Corzine.
However, party officials "say it would take a coalition of key leaders from New Jersey's largest Democratic strongholds to draft a potential replacement for McGreevey. In effect, roughly the same group of power brokers who elevated McGreevey to the governorship could take him out."
Link | Related News | TrackBack (0)
Related Categories: State House

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:49 PM

...found here...


                        news link

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for digging for those pdq. Just more to prove my point. Both the state Democratic party leadership was in on this, AND the national Democratic party leadership. In this close of an election year, with these kinds of stellar fuck ups by the New Jersey party, Ron has the audacity to suggest Kerry, McAuliffe & the DNC boys weren't in this "settlement" of the issue that ends up keeping the governorship safely in their column until after election day?

And I don't know where you get your information that McGreavy ISN"T under investigation, Ron. You have a private phone line to FBI headquarters? How do you know the LEGAL wrongdoings of some of this dude's highest apppointees, aren't leading to evidence of HIS involvement in illegal activities that just haven't come to light yet? I mean, to think that is quite possible under these circumstances isn't exactly stretching anybody's imagination.

Or do you believe in the tooth fairy too Ron?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:03 PM

Actually, I'm sure that many of my fellow Catters might be horrified but I agree with part of what Martin said. Yes, if the guy is so "distracted with his sexuality" to lead then maybe he shouldn't lead.

Hey, I think this would apply to gays or straights. Note that Martin didn't say that he couldn't lead in askin' "Did this effect him in his governor job?" and then following with, "Maybe not."

I am disturbed, however, that with the real problems that the US is facing (screwed up wars, run away health insurance costs, the working class gettin' screwed, etc) that the neo-cons have been so able to distract the focus of the average American away from those problems and onto meaningless genital and preferance issue.

BTW, once one gets beyond the genital thing, which accounts for very little time in the big scheme of things isn't homosexuality about preferance. I mean, like who do folks want to spend their tim4e with? Look around you and see how many men are spending inordinaant amounts of time with other men. I'm not talking just work but after work. I mean look at the Bubba's and the Billy Bobs in the South swho come home, grab a little supper, kiss the wife and go go off and play "cars" with, ahhhhhh, other men! Think this doesn't occur then you ain't lived in the South. "Cars" maybe the common denominator but the preferance? The company of other men. Now I know this theory won't get any pulpit time in Jerry Fallwell's church but, hey, lets be real honest here... Lotta closet good ol' boys who would be the first to tie an openly gay kid behind a pickup truck and pull the kid down dirt roads until the kid was dead. Like what are they so afraid of anyway? A 135 pound kid 'er something else like the 230 tatooed, beer bellied body they are living in?

Nevermind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:04 PM

Guest, don't get your panties in a twist.

IF you read the stories that you posted, you would realize that McGreevey is NOT the direct subject of an investigation - and I've said that all along. Hence, my original statement that you LIED when you said McGreevey was the subject of a FEDERAL investigation. McGreevey is not implicated in either indictment.   As I've said from my first post, McGreevey is guilty of hanging around with the wrong people.    The cases you've posted are NOT the reason McGreevey resigned.   

Would these investigations into McGreevey's friends have hurt his re-election campaign. I am sure it would have. I doubt I would have voted for him because of this.   However, it is far different from your OPINION that this was the reason he resigned.   McGreevey could easily have carried out the remainder of his term with these investigations going on.   

Now, as you said, we do not know EXACTLY what is contained in the lawsuit that was threatned from his male companion.

There is nothign "sleezy" about waiting until Nov. 15 to resign. That is pure politics. Of course he did that on purpose. It doesn't take much of a brain to figure that out. If you think this was plotting between him and the Democratic party, you give both too much credit. It was simple politics, and I think it was a brilliant move. Not sleazy, just smart.

The only one using the "gay card" is people like you. He resigned, as he said, before the "scandal" would undermine his ability to govern. It is going to get dirty, especially once the Republicans start helping out.

Please pay attention to what I've said. I hate it when people, especially anonymous guests, turn words around. I do not like McGreevey. I do think his actions in office (in terms of his associates, fundraising, political hires, and policies) were awful. He was wrong and did not bring honor to the office. I am not sorry to see him leave.   However, I do not use his resignation to start playing the "gay card". Most citizens of New Jersey apparently felt the same. His lifestyle had nothing to do with his ability to govern.   His lack of ability to govern did him in.

And thank your for pointing out my mispelling of "lieing". I am the victim of New Jersey public schools. Never learned to proofread.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:10 PM

Guest - you have a private line to the FBI? I'm impressed.   I thought in this country a person was innocent until proven guilty. You seem to believe that the man is guilty and you do not have a shred of evidence. Of course, you don't have the stones to use your own name so I'm not surprised by your boasting.

Hey, you might be right. I would not be shocked if McGreevey is being investigated. However, I do not make assumptions. If you read the indictments, there is nothing to indicate McGreevey was directly involved. Most prosecutors would have had their evidence in order before handind down any indictments. I would SUPPOSE that they would have indicted him at the same time they went after his cronies IF they had evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,guest 2
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:30 PM

Hey Ron

If you voted for this guy, I think you got just what you deserve.
Flame on Dude

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:37 PM

You are absolutely right 2. You never know what how a person will perform in their job.   Of course, McGreeveys opponent was not a very good option. I assume you are from NJ and aware of the politics since you made that statment.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:52 PM

No Ron, the stories haven't said he ISN'T under investigation, they have said the FBI won't comment on whether he is or isn't under investigation. Big difference.

We agree that none of the news stories have said is HE has been INDICTED. However...

Ron's tooth fairy whispered this in Ron's ear as he typed:

"McGreevey is not implicated in either indictment."

Except by the fact that he is the one who appointed said indictees, and it was his campaign for the guv's office that was funded by said indictees.

It is true that in the waning days of King Richard Daley's reign, all his top apppointees around were indicted and prosecuted. They were, however, never able to touch Daley himself. Not even the most steadfast dead Democrats who had voted for him for decades thought he was innocent, though. Same is true here. McGreavey may be able to dodge the bullet by playing the gay card, but that doesn't mean anybody really thinks this about him being gay. This is all about him being a little too close to the indictees, and a very close election year on the national level, so he needs the cover of an "already resigned, but still doing business as usual" sign hanging on his office door.

Then Ron gives me a great big ole belly laugh with this one:

"There is nothign "sleezy" about waiting until Nov. 15 to resign."

Nothing sleezy about waiting THREE DAMN MONTHS TO RESIGN????

Sure Ron. If that resignation date wasn't effective 11 days after an election that could lose the guv's office to the Republican set of crooks (as opposed to the Democrat crooks currently in charge in Jersey), Martians might even buy that.

But in the meantime Ron, this smacks of political sleeze even on Mars.

"McGreevey is guilty of hanging around with the wrong people."

At the very least.

"The cases you've posted are NOT the reason McGreevey resigned."

Sure Ron. It's all about his marriage vows.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM

And this is from today's NY Times:

"My truth is that I am a gay American,'' he said. If that had been the beginning and the end of the story, we would be celebrating Mr. McGreevey's candor, not assessing his resignation. But the story - like Mr. McGreevey's statement - was incomplete.

The governor's announcement was reportedly driven by the threat of a sexual harassment lawsuit by a former aide, Golan Cipel. Mr. McGreevey, who has two children from his two marriages and whose wife stood next to him during his press conference, acknowledged that he had committed adultery with another man. He did not say that the man in question had worked for his administration.

Gay or straight, that kind of relationship raises troubling questions, apart from the issue of whether it was consensual. Mr. Cipel was originally appointed as the governor's homeland security adviser, a job for which he had no discernable qualifications. If Mr. McGreevey put someone in that critical post because of a personal relationship, that would be an outrage, regardless of his sexual orientation.

The timing of the governor's coming out was apparently driven by the potential lawsuit, and the timing of his resignation - Nov. 15 - was driven by a desire to avoid an interim election. As it stands, the State Senate president, Richard Codey, another Democrat, will inherit the executive office until the end of 2005. While the mechanics of trying to hold gubernatorial primaries and an election this year would be daunting, Mr. McGreevey's strategy doesn't serve New Jersey residents well. The state will be led by an embattled governor mired in personal and legal problems for three months. Then, because of the peculiarities of New Jersey's Constitution, Mr. Codey will simultaneously lead the Senate and the executive branch - an enormous amount of power for someone whose voter mandate comes only from a State Senate district in Essex County.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:06 PM

Guest, You are really doing a fine job of putting a spin on things. First the McGreevey story and then my words.

" "McGreevey is not implicated in either indictment." Except by the fact that he is the one who appointed said indictees, and it was his campaign for the guv's office that was funded by said indictees."
Duh. I think I was saying that from the beginning. Again, McGreevey has not been charged with any wrong doing.   As I've said, several times now, McGreevey is guilty of hanging around with the wrong people. His ethics are questionable to say the least. I've never said they weren't. All I've said, and I will say it again, McGreevey has not been charged with any crimes. THAT is the truth.

"Sure Ron. It's all about his marriage vows."
When did I ever say it was about his marriage vows?

"Nothing sleezy about waiting THREE DAMN MONTHS TO RESIGN????
"Sure Ron. If that resignation date wasn't effective 11 days after an election that could lose the guv's office to the Republican set of crooks (as opposed to the Democrat crooks currently in charge in Jersey), Martians might even buy that." "
You must be Republican so I will try typing slower so that you will understand.   What McGreevey did WAS calculated to keep the Republicans out of the office, at least until 2005. That is not a crime, nor would I consider it sleezy. THAT is politics. (Which I guess is sleezy by definition.) I would say the same thing if a Republican did that.

"that doesn't mean anybody really thinks this about him being gay"
THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!!!!!!!!   THANK YOU FOR FINALLY AGREEING WITH ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:07 PM

Coincidentally, Corporate Crime Reporter released it's TOP TEN CORPORATE AND WHITE COLLAR
CRIME PROSECUTORS LIST, and the prosecuting attorney for Jersey who has led the charge in the cases swirling around McGreevey tops it. Here is what THEY had to say about Mr. Please Don't Gay Bash Me McGreevey:

"Christopher Christie, U.S. Attorney, Newark, New Jersey

Until he resigned from office last week for personal reasons, the Governor of the state of New Jersey was under investigation for public corruption.

He might still be.

To get to the Governor, federal prosecutors had go through his big financial contributors. So, they focused on one big financial contributor.

This financial contributor didn't want a witness cooperating with the federal investigation, so he lured the witness into a trap, set him up with a prostitute, and videotaped the scene.

Yes, it is New Jersey. Yes, it is public corruption. Yes, it is sordid.

The U.S. Attorney pursuing the case is Christopher Christie, a Republican conservative – tried and true.

The Governor, James E. McGreevey, is a liberal Democrat.

The financial contributor, now under indictment, is Charles Kushner.

You have to hand it to Christie. Of course, there are the charges of political motivation.

Christie, they say, wants to be Governor.

But Christie is an equal opportunity prosecutor of public corruption.

Last year, he nailed former Essex County Executive James W. Treffinger, a Republican. Trefflinger pled guilty to obstruction of justice.

To derail the investigation of his granite company, Treffinger sought to get himself appointed US attorney. He was recorded as saying that there are ''plenty of mobsters to go after – you
don't have to go after all these poor politicians trying to ply their trade."

Christie believes that the political criminal is in many ways ''worse than the street criminal because the street criminal never pretends to be anything but what he or she is."

But while public corruption has been the name of the game in New Jersey almost forever, Christie has also pursued major corporations for pollution, fraud, and false claims against the government.

In short, Christie has reinvigorated a formerly sleepy office.

Christie graduated from Seton Hall University Law School in 1987.

He then signed on with the Cranford, New Jersey law firm of Dughi, Hewit & Palatucci, where he became partner.

President Bush appointed Christie to be U.S. Attorney for New Jersey in December 2001.

Maybe he's cracking down on corporate crime and corruption because he wants to be Governor of New Jersey.

Maybe he's doing it because it's his job.

Whatever the motivation, public corruption in New Jersey ain't going away anytime soon. And better to have a Christopher Christie than someone who's asleep at the switch."

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM

Thanks Guest.   I find it intesesting to see that it was a Bush appointed "Republican conservative – tried and true" who "to get to the Governor, federal prosecutors had go through his big financial contributors."

Very interesting.   I wonder if they have a semen-stained cocktail dress hiding somewhere. Where is Monica Tripp these days?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:27 PM

How is the "Ron Olesko as truth-seeker" contest Going???

Sorry Ron, you flunked.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:32 PM

How did I flunk? I've never said that McGreevey is innocent. I've said from the start that I don't care for his politics. His ethics are very questionable. I would not be shocked if he were indicted. I just don't indict someone until I see the evidence, which apparently everyone else has. And I belive in the tooth fairy? Again, the spin doctors are at work here at Mudcat.

The point, once again, is that the "gay card" is not the issue here.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:43 PM

You are such a pathetic partisan, Ron. Really pathetic. This doesn't have a damn thing to do with party politics. It has to do with the culture of political graft and corruption IN BOTH PARTIES IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY.

Less than a week before McGreevey resigned, this Aug 8th Boston Globe article reported:

"McGreevey, 46, was mentioned 83 times in the federal indictment of David D'Amiano, the trash-hauling fund-raiser. But the prosecutor has not named McGreevey as a coconspirator, and the governor's aides say McGreevey's involvement was innocent. McGreevey was not implicated in the indictment of fund-raiser Charles Kushner, either."

And then there is this from a July 31st article in the Washington Post:

"By Michael Powell
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 31, 2004; Page A03


TRENTON, N.J. -- Even by the ethically elastic standards of politics here, the boyish-looking governor of New Jersey has suffered one long headache this month...

"The governor hired some freaking hacks and said some stupid things, and that will hurt him," said David Rebovich, managing director of the Rider Institute for New Jersey Politics. "But there's no smoking gun. Without that, McGreevey will survive."

Anywhere else, Rebovich might sound like a stone optimist. But this is New Jersey: "I don't want to say we're corrupt, but we lead the nation in the number of former mayors in federal prisons."

It has been a bad decade or three for public officials in the Garden State. A former Hudson County executive disappeared for months in 2001 before reemerging to plead guilty and help implicate other corrupt officials. A recent acting governor resigned in an ethics flap. In the past two years, the U.S. attorney has obtained the convictions of 58 public officials. The U.S. attorney's spokesman told the Bergen Record: "You shake the trees, they just seem to drop more apples."

You may not have have noticed that neither the Jersey prosecutor in these cases(whom you immediately painted as a Ken Starr Republican with a partisan ax to grind because he was appointed by Bush, in order to make your sleezy state Democratic party look less like the corrupt crooks that they are) or the FBI have said he ISN'T under investigation. They have said "no comment".

In fact, the only people inside or outside Jersey saying that McGreevey hasn't been implicated in these investigations, though not yet indicted in conjunction with them, are his staff.

Or, as the Washington Post put it in the same article:

"McGreevey and his aides have portrayed the investigations as a vendetta by Christopher J. Christie, the federal prosecutor, who was appointed by President Bush"

Give us a break Ron. We weren't born yesterday. This time, the sex scandal works to the Democrats advantage because it is keeping Democrats in charge of the guv's mansion AND the state senate. That is ONE FREAKIN GUY as guv AND leader of the Jersey Legislature.

Which is why McGreevey and the party hacks are claiming this doesn't have anything to do with all those investigations and indictments of 500,000 or so of his appointees in the last month. Oh no. Doesn't have anything to do with that vast right wing Republican conspiracy.

This week, it is all about the guv breaking his marriage vows and being a fucking saint for coming out of the closet.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM

Guest, pathetic partisan? It must be nice to hide behind your sheet as an anonymous troll. Instead of having a discussion, you resort to name calling. Stand by your facts, not your cheap shots. Rush Limbaugh would be proud.

Yes, I am a Democrat, but I do not like McGreevey and I'm not sorry to see him go. However, I'm not going to hang on the "gay card" like you and others have been doing. Sure he MIGHT be implicated in the scandals that are brewing with his associates, but YOU do not have proof of that. I would love to see it too. As I've said from the start, I don't care for his politics and ethics and I'm not sorry to see him go. Unlike you, I do not have access to supposed information and I'm not about to start spinning a story that will support my political beliefs like you have so obviously been doing.

I apologize to the rest of you who have been reading this thread because I let this troll bait me.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:57 PM

... and by the way, quoting the Washington Post does not exactly sway opinions. They are the Fox News of the newspaper business.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM

Well, Ron, not quite Fox but movin' in that direction...

Too bad this got into a shoutin' match 'cause I thought I made some interesting observations in my last post but seems that there's always a couple of folks yellin' so loud that no one can get a word in edgewise...

Nevermind, back to the "Main Event"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:00 AM

No more shouting. I was baited by the troll and I apologize. It should have been obvious that the troll wasn't paying attention to what I was saying and just twisting my words (which agreed with most of the trolls points when you come down to it) just to get an arguement. I've seen this troll before, it calls people partisan but when you get down to it, this troll just loves to slam anyone that doesn't agree 100% with it.

I did see your post Bobert, but I personally don't think that most people are as hung up on the sexual preference part of this story. This really isn't a sex scandal, at least yet. This is a politician who did the right thing, in my opinion, because the resulting civil suit that apparently will be brought against him will lead to a very messy final year with little chance of being re-elected. The FACT that he is staying until November keeps the governers office in Democratic hands. It really doesn't help the Democrats, even though Kerry has a 20 point lead in NJ based on a poll I saw earlier today.    There are no clear leaders in the Democratic Party in NJ, with the possible exception of Corzine. However, it is rumored that Corzine will be part of John Kerry's cabinet so he might not be in the race.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:21 AM

Ron,

It's the Washington TIMES that is the Fox news of the nespaper business. The Post kind of fluctuates.

Martin,

Polls say 37 percent of New Jerseyans think McGreevy should serve out his full term, and 19 percent think he shouldn't resign until Nov. 15th. Kind of pulls the rug out from under your claim that "the vast majority" of people don't want him to be governor.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:03 AM

Thanks Nerd, I apologize for confusing the two papers. You are 100% right. The Times is owned by Rev. Moon isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:53 AM

NJ Heterosexual Governor quits!

Y'all figure the headline would read this way had it been that way? Curious.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:54 AM

But you weren't too far off on the Post either, Ron... if you'll find the thread I started a few days ago entitled "Press: We Goofed on Iraq" you'll see what I mean...

But, weah the Moonie, I mean Washington Times? Whew! Right winged as it gets and I find it interesting that C-SPAN, which prides itself on being so objective, continues to use the Wsahington Times as a real news source... I'll tell you what. For every day that Bill Clinton was in office, the Washington times ran at least one negative headline on the front page about him and many times, multiple negative headlines... And that is the truth...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:40 AM

Well Ron, if you can't distinguish between the Washington Times and the Washington Post, not to mention the NY Times (which I also quoted), then why should anyone accept your opinion as informed, or your interpretation of the facts as more correct than the Washington Post, the NY Times, or the Boston Globe?

I mean, it's not like the paper that broke the Watergate story and brought down a president is obscure. Wonder why such a well informed person as yourself can't distinguish between the Moonies and the Washington establishment press.

I detest what the Washington Post editorial staff has done to whore themselves out to the Bush administration, but their reporters are some of the best in the biz, bar none. So I have absolutely no reason to doubt the veracity of their reporting on this case. Or the NY Times, or the Boston Globe. I'm SO sure you are better informed about this story than their reporters are.

And Ron, you are getting your information from where exactly, pontificating as the Mudcat expert on this story?

And where in any of my posts did I say that this story was about gay sex? I've said repeatedly this story isn't about sex of any kind, or broken marriage vows. The guv is playing the gay sex card to deflect attention from the legal scandals engulfing his administration. I said the problem I have with the guy is he is a crook, a mobster, a pox on the people. I could care less who he sleeps with. That isn't the issue. The issue is who he puts on the people's payroll, when he takes HIMSELF off, and the reasons why he is doing that the way he is doing it. The issue is whether he was personally involved as a player in the scandals of his administration that less than a week before his "brave announcement" were sinking that administration's ship.

But Ron, being his usual mealy mouth Democrat apologist self, trys to twist all that into a vast anti-gay right wing Republican conspiracy, which is a load of crap. This is a scandal about political corruption, not a sex scandal. This isn't about partisan politics, as was the Clinton/Lewinski non-scandal, which WAS a Republican conspiracy. It is a political corruption and graft story, and the players could just as easily have been Republican as Democrat. Are the Jersey Republicans trying to take advantage of this scandal to retake control of the guv's house and gain partisan political advantage? You bet. That too is par for the course.

This scandal may or may not end up bubbling up to effect the November presidential election in New Jersey. Stranger things have happened in recent elections, to say the least. But one thing is for certain, this most definitely effects the state Democratic party, and to suggest otherwise is just plain ludicrous.

And it so NOT about gay sex, despite the fact that "gay sex" is in all the headlines. It is called a smokescreen, people. It was a card played by the guv himself, to pre-empt information that is obviously on the verge of breaking, and to stave off calls to resign before September 3rd. Once he gets beyond that date, apparently, the Democrats get to keep control of the state. Which is what this really about. The Democrats keeping control of the state.

By hook or by crook. Or in this case, both.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:59 AM

I feel like I'm riding a roller-coaster with you guest. Once again you twist my words around to make it the complete opposite of what I've said. I've said EXACTLY the opposite of what you've accused me of saying. This is not an anti-gay issue, and if you took the time to pay attention to this discussion you would have read that. My earlier posts spell out my position -I'm not a supporter of McGreevey, I do think the Democratic party is in trouble, this is not about McGreevey being gay, this is about ethics, and McGreevey has not been charged in any case as of this date.

You raise some good points, but don't try to win a discussion by attacking the person who has an opinion opposite you. Thats cowardly and the tactics that your pal Rush Limbaugh uses. If you wish to do that, at least grow some stones and use a name instead of hiding behind your sheet.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: bflat
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

As a resident of NJ,I am appalled that post 9/11, the Governor appointed an unqualified person, his lover, to head Homeland Security. I am appalled that he financed his relationship at taxpayer expense. His obligation to the citizenry was breached. A person is known by the company he keeps and his aides who have been indited suggest something who he is. Clever people know how to keep just enough distance from the stench. This story isn't going away, November 15th notwithstanding. It has been an open secret that McGreevey is gay. I also believe it is being used as a smoke screen. I should think that would also offend people. I does me.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:39 PM

I hope that fact that the man he had sex with was an Israeli does not bring CarolC and Jack The Sailor to this thread. SOL ZELLER

Actually, as you can see, it did not. But your post did. My, what a flaming bigot you are Rabbi Sol.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 03:18 PM

Rabbi-Sol, You're writing a bit of a Tom Clancey Novel here aren't you. Carol and I are not part of any conspiracy against you or Israeli. I'm very disapponted in you. I didn't think you were that petty. Is Martin Gibson rubbing off on you?


Martin Gibson said

However, he just knew that the vast MAJORITY of people do not want this type of character in leadership.

Martin Gibson how do you not know that the vast MAJORITY of people on the Mudcat don't want to see you displaying your lack of character and BIGOTRY?

Rabbi-Sol it is you who brought up the fact that the man is an Israeli. Are you expressing some shame? Do not feel bad, there are evil dirty sleazy people IN ALL COUNTRIES, ALL RELIGIONS, ALL RACES. Israelis are no better and no worse than anyone else.

and for your information

The only beefs I have with McGreevey is that he cheated on his wife and that he appointed an unqualified foreigner as his Home Land Security Chief. If it were a Canadian woman or a Shetland pony I would be equally angry with McGreevey.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM

I really do apologize. I should never have let myself degenerate this conversation with uncalled for jokes and analogies to Bill Clinton, Rush Limbaugh, etc.   Sitting back and watching people like Guest, CarolC, Jack the Sailor and most certainly myself react this way just shows how childish we all are.   This was a serious discussion about an event that took place here in NJ.   Some of us started adding a few details that we have picked up from various news sources.   Instead of sharing that information and talk about it like adults, we all resort to name calling and one liners in attempts to make ourselves feel good. I think we need a good "time out". I for one deserve it.   

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 06:24 PM

I don't know why you have singled me out for criticism, Ron Olesko. I had no intention of posting to this thread until Rabbi Sol dragged me into it with an obviously bigoted slur against me.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 06:41 PM

Ron,

I think you do have something to apologize for, you post of 06:18. Martin Gibson's opening post is nothing but gratuitious gay bashing. This thread has never been "... a serious discussion about an event that took place here in NJ" it has been a response to Martin Gibson's bigotry. Your first post makes that clear.

In speaking about childisness, please speak for your self. I see nothing childish in speaking against bigoty. I see nothing wrong with you doing so. I see nothing wrong with me doing so. I see nothing wrong with Carol doing so, especially when the bigotry is aimed at her.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 06:49 PM

My first post was to add some information that Martin did not have or include in his first post.

As to the rest of your comments, I will be happy to respond privately if you wish to send me a comment or question. I will only add further comments that are relevant to the topic, not this sniping. These posts are adding nothing to this discussion. Please see my previous post.

This is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Ron, this was your opening statement in this thread:

"Some of you people are great spin doctors, but you really don't have a clue."

Not exactly the way to get off on the right foot. And as if that flaming example of sanctimoniousness wasn't bad enough, you started shooting your mouth off, like you always do, trying to make yourself sound like the resident expert for us lowly hoi polloi.

When it was brought to your attention that you had, in fact, gotten more than a few of your salient facts WRONG, you attacked. When BillD said, "Oh I get it, he is a sleazy politician" your condescending reply was:

""sleaze" might be a bit harsh.   Very opportunistic is a better description."

Then, you descended into political partisan tribal warrior mode with this:

"Bill Clinton was not the one..."

and this:

"There were plenty of Republicans who..."

and this:

"The Republican Menace..."

And all that was BEFORE I ever posted on 13 Aug 04 - 06:25 PM
with a very polite post. Your reply? Here it is:

"Guest, you are doing a lot of spin doctoring yourself, and you are basically lieing in your last post."

Now Ron, let's be honest. It isn't all of us, but YOU who started with the name calling.

When you call people liars for no reason, and arrogantly dismiss their politely expressed opinion with contemptuous remarks, just how do you expect people to respond to you?

The only person in need of apologizing for bad behaviour in this thread is the person who instigated the bad behavior to begin with: YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:38 PM

Mr. Olesko

My first post was to add some information that Martin did not have or include in his first post.

What you both said is still at the top of this page.

Martin said it was about being Gay you said it was not about being Gay. You did not add to what he said, you contridicted him. And rightly so! It is pretty clear that you corrected him whether you meant to or not and it is also clear that a number of people applauded you for doing so.

These posts are adding nothing to this discussion.

Please see my previous post.

This is enough.


I've seen your previous post. Respectfully, those are your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions but you are not entitled to tell me what to do and you are not entitled to critize me publicly and then insist that my response be private. You've publicly accused my wife and me of childishness and your inclusion yourself in that criticism does not mitigate that in the least.

Now you are implying that I am "sniping". Again, if you feel that you are sniping please speak for yourself. I am not sniping, I am calmly and politely pointing out that I do not believe that your criticism is justified.

If you tried to move this thread from Gay bashing to "a serious discussion about an event that took place here in NJ" that is laudible. If you want to apologize because you felt you were being childish, that is also commendible. Dragging Carol and me into that was your only mistake.

I again ask you, calmly and politely, to please speak for yourself.

Thank you.

Unless you are going to publicly apologize as you have publically criticized, I hope that I have heard the last from you on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:42 PM

GUEST, I hate to disagree with someone who appears to be coming to my defense but, in your zeal, you have made at least one error.

the person who instigated the bad behavior to begin with:

That was Martin Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:07 PM

Actually Jack, I never even count Martin, so please forgive me. He is much too trollish and inflammatory for my tastes, so I always skip over his posts. I was responding to the subject matter in the thread title.

As to coming to your defense, I hope I don't disappoint you, but I wasn't actually. I was merely pointing out to Ron that, well...my post was directed to Ron, based upon Ron's behaviour. I'd rather just let stand as is. This thread is all about Ron now, not McGreevey. I'm not interested in the former any further, and since the conversation about the latter seems to have been killed off, I'll take my leave of what could easily have been a decent thread.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:09 PM

Actually Jack, I never even count Martin, so please forgive me. He is much too trollish and inflammatory for my tastes, so I always skip over his posts. I was responding to the subject matter in the thread title.

Fair enough, I didn't read Martin's post either, until I read Ron's first one and went back to see what he was taking about. :)

As to coming to your defense, I hope I don't disappoint you, but I wasn't actually. I was merely pointing out to Ron that, well...my post was directed to Ron, based upon Ron's behaviour. I'd rather just let stand as is. This thread is all about Ron now, not McGreevey. I'm not interested in the former any further, and since the conversation about the latter seems to have been killed off, I'll take my leave of what could easily have been a decent thread.

I suspected you actually were not coming to my defense. That's why I used the words "appears to be coming to my defense".

If Ron Olesko and Rabbi-Sol are finished talking about Carol and me. I am out of here too. lol

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:24 PM

Jack & Guest - I've already apologized for everything I need to. If you wish to discuss the personal comments, then lets do it as a PM.   This is not a thread about me and this is just deflecting from the original topic.

My initial comments were not intended as "sanctimonius" or even a slam at Martin. I was not being condescending to BillD either.   I was trying to add some details (which can be found in most wire stories on this case) that were not brought up in the initial posts.

Guest is right, this could have been a decent thread but many of us were wrong in using our posts to bait and snip at each other. I tried to be funny with some of my comments and I realize it did not come off that way. The rest of you have your agendas and I can't speak for you.

Again, if you wish to discuss this, lets do it privately and not waste anyone elses time.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:23 PM

Jack and Carol, Please lighten up a little and inject some humor into your lives. My post was meant strictly as a joke in the same vain as my posts about Bill Clinton's sexual exploits. If you felt offended by it, I do apologize. The man's nationality had nothing at all to do with his behavior. There are some rotten apples in every barrel and he is one of them. I do not have a personal vendetta against you and frankly, I enjoy the intellectual and idealogical discussions that we have even though our views do not always coincide. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:46 PM

Thank you Rabbi Sol. I appreciate that. I would, however, be grateful if you could refrain from the kind of humor you say you were engaging in when you mentioned JtS and me earlier in this thread. It looks too much like the kind of vitriol that is frequently directed at me (and JtS) when people want to attack me instead of my arguments, and I am fairly likely to misinterpret it.

I hope you had a good Sabbath.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:50 AM

Rabbi-Sol

Rest assured my friend, there is plenty of humour in our lives, none of it involves implying that others are bigots. Your comparing me to Clinton is pretty funny! This was supposed to comfort me? :LOL This was an apology? :LOL Some apology!! LOL

Please, please, please
no more jokes like that. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Little Brother
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:18 AM

I saw his resignation speech on TV and what I understood he resigned because the fallout from his adulterous affair would hamper his ability to govern. Also I was disturbed by his lack of remorse. He read his statement as one would read the weather report. -LB

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,Weird NJ
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:25 AM

GUEST

are you from New Jersey? Or do you work there? I
wonder because you refer to all these scandals that you claim were "about to engulf his administration." But really, his has not been an unusually scandalous term.

You refer to a shady federal probe into "financial wrongdoing" including "hiring his largest campaign contributors."

Really. His two largest campaign contributors could make more money as State employees than at whatever they did before? Not likely.

Perhaps he was going to give them...oh, I don't know...No-Bid contracts? Honestly, if there is any institution which cannot credibly consider doing favors for campaign contributors to be wrongdoing, it is the federal government. Any probe targeted on that issue was merely Bush's camp using the justice department to try to depose any Democrat they can. So McGreevy is guilty.

Of being a Democrat.

What has become clear in the last two days is that McGreevy's resignation was forced on him by blackmail. There was no credible reason for the lover to drop his threatened sexual harassment suit, except that the threat had been intended to blackmail the Governor, and the Governor called his bluff. If the lover had hope of substantial damages, which he undoubtedy would if his allegations were true, he would have sued. Thus I conclude he had no chance; thus I conclude his allegations are untrue. So the most vulnerability the governor has is on the question of his hiring this lover to various jobs.

As for the "head of homeland security" claim, that's a little exaggerated. It was a consultant position on homeland security in question. And again...how did (say) Tom Ridge get the homeland security job? Was it because he's an intelligence expert? No. It was political patronage. This was just another form of patronage.   So again, McGreevy is guilty.

Of Nepotism.

Get over it, people.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:25 AM

I have relatives in Jersey, and vacation there every year. I don't follow Jersey politics like a hawk, but I often do follow them.

Enough to know that the main politics revolve around Ireland, Italy, and Israel.

And to know that it ain't the polarized Bush Republican/Clinton Democrat dynamic in play here. It is Jersey, the most politically corrupt state in the union. This guy is as bad as the Republican crook who preceeded him.

Let's face it, having your name apear 80+ times, even in somebody else's indictment, would force most any governor out of office.

We aren't all idiots, and we certainly know that every political corruption scandal can't be immediately blamed on the other party.

So Wierd NJ, I'll get over it as soon as you buy a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: bflat
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:47 AM

To GUEST,Weird in NJ: It has not become clear that McGreevey has been blackmailed. In the NYTimes, Brett Schundler, his opponent in 2001, suggested that the resignation was orchestrated by the heads of the Democratic Party itself to place their candidate Jon Corzine in position. True or not, I don't know. I'd say things are anything but clear.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM

...assuming Corzine does not take a position in Kerry's cabinet, much like Whitman did with Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: bflat
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:13 AM

Ron, you are right to mention a cabinet possibility. There has been speculation that Kerry, if elected, might offer Corzine a position. He is a very capable person.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:08 PM

The headline on the Associated Press story in this morning's Sunday Times-Picayune (New Orleans) says "NJ Gov's Resignation / Not Due to Being Gay."

So there.

A number of openly gay politicians were quoted about how they were able to keep their jobs, ghet re-elected, etc. The concensus was that McGreevey's errors in judgement, and his (perceived?) corruption, were the real reasons for his demise. Of curse, the gay affair was the catalyst for all the other bad news coming out (pun intended).

Some of you may claim that McG was not already in political trouble, but it looks to be like he must have been. There's no other reason an incumbent's own party would be so anxious to run a new face rather than have the established guy stand for re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:23 PM

PoppaGator, you are right. As we've said, his sexuality had nothing to do with his decision to quit.

I don't think anyone meant to say that McGreevey was not in political hotwater. While he has yet to be directly charged with anything, there is a stigma about his ethics. There is no doubt that McGreeveys associations made him a less than desirable candidate. The question is, why would he resign now? The signs seems to point to the potential lawsuit by the man that was reportedly his lover. The details that potentially would have come out of this personal lawsuit apparently would have caused more problems than McGreevey could have dealt with while in office. His admission also brought the issue to light before he was slapped with a lawsuit. It appears to be a very calculated move.

Could he have made it through his term if this potential sexual harrasment charge did not exist? Perhaps. Would he have been re-elected? I doubt it.

Until this harrassment charge came to light, the best thing for the Democratic Party would have been for McGreevey to announce that he would not seek a second term.   This mess is creating so many questions that whoever the Democrats choose will have trouble.

Of course, the NJ Republican Party is not a bed of roses either. No wonder we've had carpetbaggers in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:37 PM

Quick question: when IS McGreevey up for re-election, this Nov?

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM

NJ will vote for governor in November 2005. McGreevey announced his resignation to be effective in November of this year. IF he resigned immediately, there would have been a special election this year.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM

I am used to elections being held on even-number years. New Jersey must be as odd as people say.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:03 PM

We pride ourselves on being odd! :)   The term officially ends in 2006.

I just read a story that the NJ Democratic Party is now pressuring McGreevey to resign earlier. This would fall in line with the Republican's request to leave early and create a special election this year. The story quotes Democratic officials as worrying that more dirt will come up.   I guess they would rather take their chances in an election this year.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:41 AM

I think the answer to the "why now" question ISN'T to act pre-emptively on the sexual harrassment suit. I think it was orders from the top--Terry McAuliffe, the DNC, the DLC, and the Kerry campaign, to insure he stayed in office long enough to hang onto the governor's seat for the party through the November election.

That is the only reason why he would resign "effective November 15" because he isn't up for re-election this year. So it has to be a Democratic party interest, not his personal self-interest, that forced the resignation.

The Dems took a look at the potential for him being ousted on the corruption stuff, and said "get him out, but not until AFTER the presidential election".

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM

But that has apparently changed over the weekend. McGreevey is now getting pressure from Democrats to resign earlier and create the special election.

I'm not sure how having McGreevey in office helps Kerry's campaign. Kerry had a 20 point lead in NJ polls, and having a tainted governor in office wouldn't improve Democratics numbers.

The Republicans are already throwing around a few names. Steve Forbes seems to be their favored choice. Schundler is probably ready to run, but he does not seem to be a candidate that they are happy with.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

After reading this thread, I am amazed at the number of comments about being gay, and almost nothing about Homeland Security.   I don't think this is a gay issue at all.   Barney Franks has done fine.   I think a candidate should be honest about his sexuality, but I don't think the vast majority care if a person is gay.

I do think the homeland security is a much bigger deal.   McGreevy hires his (allegedly) gay lover to be head of NJ Homeland security at $110,000 a year with virtually no experience and he can't even get FBI security clearance.   Doesn't that bother anyone?   Having lived in NJ for 35 years, it bothers me.   

I think that will be a much bigger campaign issue.    When democrats talk about how much they support the war on terror, the republicans whill throw back how they hire unqualified gay lovers to protect us.   It doesn't make the democrats look good on that issue.

It hasn't hurt McGreevy though.   His poll numbers are up 2%- just like Clinton.   Democratic scandals seem to bring up their poll numbers.   Now if McGreevy would resign by Sept 3, Corzine could run for Govr in a special election.   If he won, he would appoint his replacement for Senate.   Maybe Toricelli?   Maybe McGreevy? I would suggest Tony Soprano.   He is from NJ, knows economic development, and is an honest politiican- (an honest politician is one who stays bought) Senator Soprano. Has a nice ring to it. The more things change the more they stay the same in NJ.

PS_ You got to love Kushner hiring prostitutes and video taping his brother in law to get him to stop testifying against Kushner.   Yet you snicker at my choice of Tony - excuse me Anthony Soprano for senator.

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:20 PM

Ah, I lit this thread up and then left for three days on a long weekend fun-style road trip as I have been doing over the summer to enjoy a real life.

As you can see Jack the Sailor and Carol C. jumped down the Rabbi's throat in typical reactionary style and then proceeded to make the usual genitalia out of themselves before it was discovered it was all in jest. What a laugh I got out of it! Ruotous. Worth the whole price of the post!

OK, everyone wants to decide what I meant when I did this post. Bobert was pretty right on the button and my hat is off to him for his perception.

Now, as far as the majority of people thing. Is anyone begging this guy from NJ to stay? Anyone at all? I hope the door doesn't hit him on the way out. I would think his ass is already pretty sore.

Goodbye Amigos! See you soon! Hah HAH!

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 01:04 PM

Sleeze in New Jersey politics.

Shocking.

Mark (from New Jersey)

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:33 PM

So far, the Village Voice wins for best writing on the subject, though:

"I'm a gay American—applause, applause—so I've been especially mesmerized by McGreevey-gate, the most sweeping allegory about the dangers of the closet since David Gest was allegedly brutalized by flying pieces of Halston furniture. By his own admission, New Jersey governor Jim McGreevey has been a poster child for duplicity, finally forced by a legal wake-up call to come clean while wearing a patterned red tie that would have outed him anyway."

You can read the full article, that makes more sense than most I've read, here:

"Alien vs Predator"

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 12:32 AM

This past Sunday, I travelled to a gig at the Antique Car & Bus Museum in Hershey, PA. On the return trip, I was on the CB radio. All the truckers remarked as we crossed the bridge from Easton, Pa. to Phillipsburg, N.J. that "we are now entering the Gay Governor's state". There were many pro-Bush and anti-Kerry remarks as well. I wonder if blue collar America will really support the Democrats in November ? I hope that they do for the good of us all. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: NJ Gay Governor quits!
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 01:07 PM

Rabbi-Sol, I absolutely do not think that they will. blue collar America is now a different animal. As a general rule, it is no longer the unionized factory worker group it once was. There just aren't that many factories here anymore. Blue collar America is now led by our police and fire departments, who after 9//1 have taken on new heroic status and are considered I believe both patriotic and conservative. The patriotic conservative vein in blue collar lifestyles now has a soundtrack of Toby Keith and Alan Jackson.