BS: America WAS a Christian Nation

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

I just attended a wonderful and enlightening lecture and tour at the Old Manse in Concord, Massachusetts.

It is clear that many of the colonial settlers, and colonies themselves, were founded by Christians, in particular, nonconformist Christians. The Puritans who settled New England were of the same sect that led to the overthrow of the English King during the Revolution in 17th Century England. The Quakers were instrumental in the founding of Pennsylvania. During the American Colonial Era, the Puritans gave way to the Congregationalists, who distinguished themselves by electing their leaders (and refused to call where they worshipped 'churches'). The Congregation split when the majority voted to become Unitarian.

There were historical happenings known as The Great Awakening, and The Second Great Awakening. Some early luminaries such as Ralph Waldo Emerson gave up on Unitarianism and embraced Transcendentalism.

What this adds up to is that whatever you mean by 'Christian' was in fact a broad ranging exploration of the intellect that went beyond what many people, perhaps yourselves, regard as Christian in this day and age. When the Framers are referring to 'Nature and Nature's God' without mentioning Christ, I think you are hard put to make Jesus the center of some imaginary historical America.

That having been said, Americans have certainly put religion high in their personal lives. Early American villages were pretty much homogeneous and didn't perceive a difference between church and state. The buildings people worshipped in were the ones they conducted town meetings in.

My main point is that you can't properly put this issue on a bumper sticker. And if you want to sleep with a bible and a copy of the Constitution, fine by me. I just think a pillow is a bit softer.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Well, Chuck Hemrick, I have never hidden the fact here at Madcat that I am of Christain Faith but would take exception to your assumption that the "left" has much of an influence on the church or the policies of the government. You chose the 60's as the turnining point. To me and many other Christains, yes, the 60's was an important decade because many of us saw first hand what's behind those nice suits, dresses abd pot luck dinners at the church in Thursday nights and what we found wasn't at all pretty... Yep, I'm not sure where you were going to chucrn then, or if you were going to church but in thre church I grew up in, our fine caring minister was run out of the church for, ahhhh, being against the Vietnam War. So were many families, including my own where my father was a decon. Yep, this is what I saw and, rwll ya what, it was ugle and so unlike anything that I had been taught about the way Jesus wants us to live.

And it wasn't just my church that purged itself of them "commie bleeding heart peacenics" but churches across America as intolerant heathens showed loving compassionate folks to the door... Now I'm not going to say it was like that in every church but I don't think you would find too many liberal Chrisatins who went thru it that don't have similar stories about their churches.

Now, just in case an pinkos goy thru the first purge we have the anti-gay movement spreading thru what's left of Christain churches, further isolating anyone who might actaully believe in tolerance and love so that these folks will next be shown the door.

Now as Jerry Rasmussen pointed out this has not hit the black churches and I can honestly say that as a white Christain the only church I have felt comfortable in since the 60's are black churches, Oh, I'm sure this will get some folks going but, hey, its the truth. Seems that Jesus has holed up in them while white Christains figure out how to either get their churches back or start new ones...

As per usual, MO...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM

American Christianity today is hardly Christianity: it is less about the New Testament than it is about the Old Testament. No love, tolerance, peace, gentleness, respect for women, cheek-turning -- none of that wussy stuff.

American Christianity today is all about judgment, control (look out, women!), power, retribution, smiting, wrath, and imposition of all these things on others.

Abortions are not okay, but wars and executions are okay. It's not death itself that is bad -- only certain types of death.

Jesus Christ would not recognize what some Americans -- fundamentalist Americans -- call Christianity. He would be the first one judged and found wanting by these dipshits.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

I think we have been had. What Guest Chuck Hemerick posted looks like Spam to me. Look at what I have italicized. It seems he has cut and pasted someone else's editorial and turned it into a chain letter. It doesn't even appear that he included the stuff that was erased form the textbooks.

We seem to be spending a lot of energy and animosity on a hit and run post.

Today, we are asking God to bless America. But, how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to September 11, He was not welcome in America. Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.   Because the Muslim faith is so sensitive to the fact that the United States was founded on Christian principles and the politically correct left are doing everything that they can to force Christians underground, I suggest that the following bears repeating.

Since the middle 1960's, the United States has embraced almost every concept imaginable that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. The U.S. has embraced the occult, middle eastern religions, far eastern religions and have made up some of our own. We have decided that it is appropriate to kill our unborn children and that the family structure is whatever each individual decides that it should be.

We have forgotten the words of the U.S. Constitution and have chosen to make up our own rules in spite of the vision of our founding fathers. I think that it is appropriate every now and then to revisit our founders and appreciate the sacrifices that they made for us. Then, we need to ask ourselves, what are we willing to do to continue the freedoms that they gave everything to secure for us?

You are encouraged to make copies, and share with others, so that the truth of our nation's history will be told.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,The Allmighty Dollar
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:14 PM

Oh, sure, it WAS a Christian nation. Once. Now I am in command. I rule. Believe it. You all live to serve Me and worship at My $Feet. You will all die and pass away as the grass that withers and the day that ends. I will rule on. I am the Allmighty Dollar, and everything you do is done of, by, and for Me. I am the Unreal become Real, the Fiction made Flesh. I am the power of life and death, the reason behind all productive and destructive activities, the arbiter of all trading, the creator of weapons of mass destruction, the alpha and the omega. I am the Corporate Seal, Omnipotent, Deathless, and Eternal. Bow before me and tremble, ye CEOs, lawyers, bondsmen, and slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:34 AM

Welcome back, Chuck. I can't say I agree with your political or religious views, but I've certainly enjoyed your music that I've heard.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:48 AM

The love of money is the root of all evil. Just ask Cheney, Halliburton, Harkin and Enron.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

The belief systems practiced in the Americas prior to colonization were/are "authochthonous," meaning they rose and evolved with people in specific landscapes (the online dictionary says "originates where they were found") and they respond to the particular natural and cultural environment that exists in that place. They include ontological material such as origin stories; strict practices to do with living in the world and who does what; and a structured eschatological (death and afterlife) practices and beliefs.

Christianity was at one time autochthonous--when it was a small belief system in the deserts of an area on the southeastern end of the Mediterranean. Now as an organized religion (i.e., "institution to express belief in a divine power") it acts like an institution or a corporation, expanding it's power base and always working on the promotion end of things. (Interesting also, that the other two industrial religions happened to arise in the same small area? They certainly learned to share the prostelatizing and recruitment behaviors.)

What christians today are practicing is something that has been translated, rewritten, and retranslated by powerful men for powerful rulers. It is in no way shape or form tied to the land or a sense of place--it has merged with science and business but is still disguised as simply a religion. It has migrated and colonized many parts of the world and has been the cause of many wars and land grabs.

Beardedbruce says Anyone here is free to try to convert others to his/her religious or political belief- Just remember that that means that the person trying to convert others is fair game to the efforts and comments of others. Only fair... but a lot of people practicing other religions in the world don't feel that way--they live and let live. The big three industrial religions don't--christianity, judaism, and the moslem religions. But they're based on an overt power base and of course want to convert new recruits--they're part of a vast and legal pyramid scheme. Marx didn't call religion "the opiate for the masses" for nothing--billions of people are to some degree controlled by their religions. The religions leaders at the top have a lot of cash to burn when their flock coughs it up every week in church, synagog or mosque.

That was a funny line, Bruce, about Jesus overreacting. Just thought I'd mention it since I haven't given you much slack in the past. And I'm not likely to on this, either, with all of the chapter and verse being ladled into this thread, even with the diversion of humor.

("Religion comes from the oppressed, but benefits those at the top," and other interesting quotes, appear here in a study-aid online from the UK.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Duane D. at work
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:40 PM

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Some folks here seem to think that reference to God automatically means Christian. There are many religions that reference God and followers who believe in God and are not Christians. Afterall, this thread does say BS, does it not?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:56 PM

The original essay from which the incoherent excerpty that started this thread was taken was apprantly from someone devout Christian named John F Morrison. It is rabble-rousing SOuthern-Baptist flavored intense ideology. I consider it is not in keeping witht he founding spirit of this nation. That is my own opinion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM

I hadn't noticed that the first message was a copy-paste. I should have known. It's less than our one-screen limit, so I won't hassle with it. This Google Search shows that the very same article appears in at least 285 other places on the Internet.

Our copy-paste limits apply only to non-music items. If it's about music, please post the entire text, if at all possible. For non-music articles that you want to copy and post, our limit is one screen of text, which is a lot of information. If the article is longer, post excerpts or a summary in your own words, plus a link to the source of the text. Whenever you post information from other sources, please tell us where you got it from - this is especially important when you are posting lyrics, because it helps answer a lot of questions. Generally, we ask people NOT to post lyrics that are copied directly from the Digital Tradition (or Yet Another Digital Tradition), or from messages already posted in the Forum - it confuses our song harvesters.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

At the risk of spoiling a perfectly good rant from Brother Chuck Hemmick, the Fathers of Our Nation were mostly Deists, NOT Christians...might want to research this, so as to be better informed.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM

Well said, TAH! But Upthread Chuck was just reflecting something someone else wrote, and that incompletely to the point of unclarity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

"The functional clause was ". . .one nation under God . . .", not one nation under Jesus."

Christians have a hard time reading?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Not reading--just differentiatin' ....

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: belter
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:41 PM

America WAS a Free Nation!

I seem to recall hearing in school that america had religious freedom. The founding fathers may have been nominally christion, or at least deist, but also were willing to discuss religion frankly. They had an open mindedness that was perhaps odatious for the time. If what they meant by "religious freedom" was actually the freedom of choosing your brand of christianity, then who cares? True religious freedom is essential to our way of life. Anything less gives the lie to our claim to being a free country.

I don't understand how calling something christian, like a country for example, makes it a good thing. If its good and it's christian then christians may be proud of it, but if its not and it's christian, then they should be assamed. Not call it christain as if that makes it good. Christianity, no dought against the teachings of jesus, has been used to justify all maner of war and atrosity for the last 2000 years. In this it is not alone among religions.

I'd like to sugjest that greater good will come from tollorence than from exclusion. I can tollorate chuck hemrick's close minded supersitious deist dogma. Opps, did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Many millions, myself included regard Jesus Christ as a giant flop as the Messiah.

I think I will continue to wait for the real one to show up.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

will you know him because he turns water into Manischewitz?

(that's a JOKE, son..)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Either that, or Mogen David!

Stay cool!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:16 PM

The trouble with missiahs is they have to do so much before anybody pays the slightest attention to them, then if it's attention they need and they are what they claim, why not grant totaly happiness to everybody?

I don't buy the NT story simply because the main character spoke in riddles and never actualy - as reported - owned up to being anything other than a slightly fringy Jew, and here I must remind myself he wasn't that bad of a Jew to deserve execution, but ... hey, still ain't enough reason to call him 'the' Messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Bottom Feeder
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

Tar_Heel was a right wing, religious nutjob before he went away. To tell the truth, I am sorry to see his sorry ass trying to stir up more hatred and discontent. Crawl back under your rock Chuck, turn on Rush Limbaugh, and quit peddling your bigoted crap around here.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Chuck Hemrick
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:37 PM

just a note to say thanks to those who responded to the article i left here!!!!i am not back in mudcat as a member,but i do not sneak in here and leave rational messages,articles,etc.,for the enjoyment of upsetting anyone here,without leaving my name!
i know this group mostly consist of the liberal left,which i am not a member, nor support!
i am a hard nose conservative and state my beliefs just as the rest of you do!
(and,i am the same chuck hemrick...aka,tar_heel,that once was a member here)!
i am going the folk thingy alone now as "tarheel and friends"!
my son/daughter have their own lives to live and i do not pressure them to travel with me to perform anywhere!
my wife peg,has health problems and cannot perform with me anymore!
her bass fiddle is for sale to anyone interested!
you can see it in our website: http://hemrickfamilysingers.homestead.com
$1000.00 is the asking price...you pay for shipping!
it's the bass fiddle that is in the photo with poeg on the home page!
anyway,i'll be back from time to time and leave more conservative views of mine!
i support our troops,the president and god bless the u.s.a.!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

TO GUEST:BOTTOM FEEDER!rather be a right wing nut than a low lying commie,el pinko liberal like you!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

tar_heel...thanks for the visit. God bless, and may you and your wife be well.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:16 PM

Hey, Chuck!!

Thanks for coming by -- I wish I could take you up on the bass fiddle!! Sorry to hear about your wife's health troubles, and I hope she recovers her full stamina.

I t looks like you've been making some beautiful music for many years, and I wish you many happy returns from all the joy you've made playing for others. Regardless of our political leanings, we are about music, here, and you're part of that family even if you only show up once in a great while!

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:24 PM

Hi, Chuck! You may be pleased to know that one of my best musical friends locally describes himself as so rightwing that everyone else in the World is to the left of him...and yet we get along fine. He says there is no one he can vote for because none of them are far enough to the right. I am a left wing radical, a strong believer in the benefits of socialism. He and I usually disagree on a lot politically, yet we tend to identify a lot of the same problems in society...but propose different solutions to them.

Strange, isn't it?

He would like to turn the clock back to when Canada was a white, Anglo-Scottish-Irish culture (with a French enclave)...kick the French out...kick all the other "foreigners" out and relive the "good old days".

Ain't gonna happen. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM

Funny, Little Hawk, that your friend doesn't realize that Canada was never like that. Even without the French or other foreigners, there were still the native people who were here before the European whites. What would your friend make of them?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:02 AM

it should be stated that there is no reference to Jesus in the US Constitution. Hardly an argument for a Christian nation.

Also, John Adams informed the island of Barbary Coast to it's Muslim inhabitants, "We are not a Christian nation."

Tom Jefferson in his letter to the Baptists reaffirmed his view of separation of Church and State. Jefferson would not recognize the religion of the right-wing evangelicals today as being a valid Christianity.

The Ten Commandments were based on The Code of Hannarabi, a pre-Christian ideal from the Indus Valley.

In short, the so-called religious Right-wing evangelicals have hi-jacked Jesus for their own political advantage. They seek to impose their limited moral values on the rest of society by offering the ruse that God is somehow being outlawed. This is not true. Any school kid has the right to pray whenever he or she wishes as long as it's not forced down the throat of others who have the right not to.

The US is not a Theocracy and never will be. For the evangelists, it's a losing battle and they only hurt themselves by ignoring in economic disparity in the country today.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:54 AM

"Right-wing evangelicals have hi-jacked Jesus for their own political advantage."

Frank, you are so right. Jesus is respected by the Muslims, and accepted as one of their most important prophets of God. Jesus is accepted by the vast majority of Hindus and Buddhists and revered as one of the most important prophets of God. Most Native American spiritual leaders admire Jesus and his essential teachings, because they are universal teachings. The people whom I regard as almost the least exemplary of Jesus' actual teachings are the Religious Right in America. Like the fanatics of the Spanish Inquisition before them, they have co-opted a beautiful spiritual teaching and turned it into a monstrosity.

And as others have pointed out, "God" is not an entity exclusive to the Christian religion, therefore a nation "under God" is not by definition a Christian nation. The Christians don't "own" God. :-)

peedeecee - Actually, my rightwing pal is very pro-Native American! In this he is consistent, as he always tends to favour the indigenous people (those who have been in an area longer) over the new arrivals. He's basically anti-immigrant. This is a bit ironical, though, because HE emigrated from Scotland to Canada when he was in his 20's. :-) He figures that doesn't count, because Canada was already an English-speaking and predominantly Anglo-Saxon culture when he arrived. He seems to be bothered by different cultures arriving from foreign shores. He is under the impression, same as Kipling was, that "the twain shall never meet".

What he is really objecting to is change, and that is a typically old time conservative position, isn't it? But it's not neo-conservative! Those guys would like to make big changes...all for the worse (unless you're very rich). He's not neo-conservative. He's old time conservative, but more than most. This helps explain why he can't find anyone to vote for. His kind of conservatism has almost ceased to exist on the political party level.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

In the United States, at least until recent years, religion has been safe from interference by the government. But especially within very recent years, the government has not been safe from interference by religion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

True enough, but that's small potatoes when compared to the influence of $money...(the real prevailing religion these days)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 04:02 PM

. . .and religiou$ money. . .

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 04:09 PM

The main thing wrong with this thread is the title. It's bullshit. America never was a Christian Nation. Show me ONE reference to Jesus in the Constitution or B of R. Show me ONE! And if you can't, then kindly #@%* &!! about it. Warmest thanks.

Chuck, I hope your missus heals, buddy. The best to you both.

B Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:01 PM

True enough, Stilly.

Bruce - Well, I think what the poster may have had in mind was that mainstream North American society was mostly composed of at least nominal Christians until fairly recently...whether or not it was so stated in the official governmental documents. Most people at the time of the Civil War, for instance, would certainly have identified themselves as Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 10:21 PM

IMO, LH, the 'one nation under God' was put there to allow for other religions. Christians don't seem to allow for much that ain't Christian. Kinda lately it's 'my way or the highway' and I'm tired of it. No offense to anyone. The fundies seem to think they have a corner on the God market--and the reserve parking in heaven--and it don't wash with me. They are trying to manipulate the American government (and doing a good job at it I might add), and I find them to be untrustworthy bastards no matter how much they stuff God down my throat. Sorry, but that's my view. I don't have the wisdom of Solomon, but then, neither do they. They seem to have got his riches, though.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:03 PM

The teachings of Jesus have a long history of being hijacked, edited and rewritten to suit the needs of powerseeking people whose sole desire is to maintain a stranglehold over the lives of others. It began just a couple of centuries after Jesus' death when the gospels which portrayed Jesus as a teacher who said "I'm not so special. Each of you has the potential to be as I am." were tossed out and labeled heresy while only those that portrayed him as a leader who said "I am unique and you must worship me." were retained as part of the canon. How can a hierarchal church seeking to control the lives of its followers embrace a figurehead who says that hierarchy and control are illegitimate? It can't. So, it cherrypicks the stories that work toward its ends and ignores the others. Remember that Jesus himself wrote nothing. The gospels upon which the Christian religion are based were written by his followers. And like the blind men describing the elephant, each of the authors of the gospels described the aspects of Jesus that he perceived. Taken as a whole, they may do a fairly good job of portraying a man who was, undoubtedly, one of the most enlightened beings to ever walk the earth. But the gospels which the early church canonized (and upon which all subsequent flavors of Christianity are based) don't tell the entire picture and I, for one, will not associate myself with any church that claims that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 02:13 PM

Well put, BWL, and more succinct than my post several yards up the screen.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: belter
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 04:37 PM

Right on, BWL.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

there are a couple of issues...one is whether ANY religion makes any sense, the other being how to deal with the very strict, non-compromise statements of the New Testament, which give ammunition to those who would promote Conservative Christianity as **THE** religion, no matter what the Constitution says.

If one believes in Jesus, and accepts that "I am the way, the truth..."etc...and that "no man comes unto the Father but by ME", (and other narrow statements) then they are sort of compelled to force their religion on others.

Many other religions have a simpler attitude.."We have OUR prophets and Gods, you have yours...we don't argue with YOU unless you make fun of US!"....the USA is supposed to allow free expression of religion, while promoting none..but you'd never know it to hear blessings invoked "in the name of Jesus" for everything from sports events to wars to mall openings!

I get rather annoyed...I'm sure that if there is a God, he can hear your prayers if you do them silently

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 06:34 PM

So Chuck Spams us, then comes back to tell us that he spammed us and will do so again, then he insults a couple of people does another ad then slinks off again. Good for him. I hope he sells his fiddle.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

Friends,

    1)Jesus spoke kindly and openly to a woman of a different nation and religion and culture. You all are name-calling and you supposedly have this group in common. Stop that.

    2)Jesus spent His life reaching out to those whose lives and choices weren't always the best ones... the Christians out here seem to be pre-occupied with quoting Scripture and, as He said, "neglecting the weightier matters... justice, mercy, good faith." So stop that, too.

    3) The Bible is the record of God's love for man, and the pronouncement of judgment on those who reject that love; salvation is for those who believe in the One God sent and persevere in well-doing, not losing heart, not rendering evil for evil but always being the most humble examples of Christ-likeness. I hear you Christians trumpeting about how right you are. Stop that, too.

    The Christ I serve is the One, though blameless and sinless, died a sinner's guilty death and never even cursed those who killed Him. You can't even bear to converse without slamming one another. Stop that.

    The Bible says to exhort and rebuke with all patience and long-suffering so that our brethren can learn to be more like Jesus. Fellow Christians, consider yourselves rebuked in love for the sake of our precious Master. I love you.

FoF+

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:18 PM

Who is this fop?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:26 PM

Me? Just a fop. A regular old fop. Like all the fops you've seen before.

    Just trying to get people out of each others' hair over the whole Christianity vs. patriotism thing. I see often that some people don'tthink the two are very compatible, others think that Christ is a Republican. All I'm doing is getting the Christians (hopefully) to stop quoting all the stuff about judgement of others and start them thinking about servanthood and humility. Big fop that I am, after all.

FoF+

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 08:50 PM

PLEASE...no preaching here! We can discuss religion, but you are PROMOTING religion.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

I'm confused (again and still). Is Tar-Heels the Mudcatter who openly pursued Sandy Toes through the forum a while back? And is Peg Sandy Toes?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:10 PM

well jack,believe it or not,there is life away from the computer,especially the Mudcat room!
and,if i may say so,it's a beautiful life out there and i don't intend to waste my time and energy wondering who's going to insult me,or ridicule me next,in here!
after all,if it wasn't for the hard nosed conservatives like me in here,you liberal jackels would be bored to death day to day,trying to come up with something worthwhile to say and print in your little biased forum here!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM

Chuck! You're back and you aren't preaching or selling anything! Welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,chuck hemrick
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:18 PM

sorry jack...SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: FriendOfFrancis
Date: 18 Aug 04 - 09:30 PM

America, at her best, is a place where people can escape what they once were and pursue the chance to be something they are not yet. Most of the flag-wavers who argue about whether America was or is a Christian nation or not fail to see the trend of right-wing Republican Christians trying their hardest not to allow people to pursue what they can be, but trying to FORCE people (and this nation) to be what they believe it should be.

    Granted, I believe that the nation whose God is the Lord (YHWH, the I AM) will be blessed, and America has been. But America's future is no different than the future of any other nation on earth: We will all stand accountable for the gift of life God has given us. Those of us who try to legislate righteousness are going to find out that "the wrath of man worketh NOT the righteousness of God."

    I am a dyed-in-the-wool Christian, but believe me when I say that if adherents of other faiths treated me the way some of my Christian brothers treat people from their puplits, this would be a scary and miserable life indeed.

FoF+