BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know

Subject: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

I have been reading and digesting an article I found about "why the conservatives are controlling the political debate"....this is something I have been struggling to express for awhile now, but didn't have the training & framework to do...it is well worth reading, and I wish I could get Kerry and his team to read it.

it is here by George Lakoff:
George Lakoff is a senior fellow at the Rockridge Institute and the Richard and Rhoda Goldman Distinguished Professor of Cognitive Science and Linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley. He is the author of Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

I agree it's a thought=provoking article. We had a previous thread starting out from it - BS: Explaining the 'right-wing power grab'

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:08 PM

ah...thanks, Kevin...that was right before & during the FSGW Getaway last year, and I totally missed it due to being preoccupied. Now I have another thread to read..in my copious spare time.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:20 PM

Interesting article, Bill D. Lakoff's reference to "frames" within which we interpret the essential meaning or context of words/terms is brilliant.

"J. van GIGCG makes the point: "When communications Sciences were dominated by SHANNON's work in Communication Theory,... the human communication channel provided this scientific discipline with its metaphor: a system grounded in telephone and electronic technologies. However, this school of thought has been superseeded and displaced by a more comprehensive view which embraces not only the syntactic, but also the semantic and pragmatic views of communication. Therefore, this field can be associated with the metaphor of a relational exchange system designed to influence" (1993, p. 50)."

from    www.imprint.co.uk/thesaurus/language.htm

So, to get out of the Bush league, do we need Kerry to relief pitch for two terms?

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:58 PM

Yeah, Lakoff's a genius and his work on metaphors and frames is legendary. Howard Dean had met with Lakoff a number of times, planning for this phase of the campaign. I wonder if he's on Kerry's radar?

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:01 PM

One can but hope, Nerd.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM

more from Lakoff, on the language and 'frames' being used at the Republican convention.

He notes that what is excluded from frames can be as important as what is included.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM

I believe that Kerry does know this. The article of course is right on.

The strict father model, the authoritarian view, the absolutist approach by Bush is the very thing that Kerry is trying to avoid in his own candidacy.
He is attempting to reframe the debate by ignoring the smear and fear tactics of the Republicans.

It's time in the reframing of the debate that we challenge Republicans directly.
We also need for them to see that they are shooting themselves in the foot
by an antiquated view of the world, that a hegemonic approach to foreign affairs can't be successful. and never will be. Iraq is just compounding the problem of Vietnam making the latter relevant to today.

"Terror" as a concept is another frame that needs clarification. Somehow it has become separated from the notion of criminal intent. Common criminals are not "terrorists" by this frame. "Terrorism" is somehow defined by the Republicans as being worse than other crimes because it involves the notion of "patriotism". You're either for us or against us. This simplistic view of "terror" is part of the problem we face in Iraq. Unfortunately, some Dems are buying into it. They are not seeing "terror" as another manifestation of criminality.

Republicans have defined Democrats as policy wonks because Dems have not articulated their vision as Lakoff suggests. There seems to be an accepted fact amoung Liberals that Republicans ought to understand the "issues" as being the important thing rather than ideology.

The so-called "Culture War" is about preserving the "strict father" idea.
This idea is also a frame. There is nothing inherently cultural about the "gays,guns and religion" issue. It's a trumped-up deal framed by Republicans to furthur their control.

In a sense, you might say that this "strict father" approach to control borders on fascism although the difference in Nazi Germany is that Hitler was more of a gang leader big brother than a strict father. It has been said that Big Brother Hitler was a rebellion against the German propensity for strict paternalism.

Reframing the debate involves attacking the language of the Right-wing.
For example, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a "bleeding heart Liberal" since the very notion is of compassion for human beings rather than the "dog eat dog" Neo-con view which basically mistrusts people. Liberal means generous. In terms of taxes, the betterment of society has to mean that everyone pays their fair share responsibly. Those that feel put upon by the Liberal's position are selfish and their self-interest will never succeed because there are too many people out there who are being short-changed by this ostensible "self-interest". It does not serve the poor and disenfranchised in America hence it might even be thought of as being un-American. Ultimately, it will not serve those self-interested people or companies because it doesn't promote the betterment of society.

Public service is American. Privatization that tears down public service is
antithetical to American values.   

Fighting a war so that corporations can control foreign companies is un-American. There can be no freedom in a foreign land if the people who live there don't have it for themselves. It can't be imposed by military bullies.

As long as gun control is considered a right, not a privilege (as driving a car)
there will continue to be crimes committed. The NRA has not managed to assuage gun violence in the US which is more pronounced here than in other countries.

If marriage of gay people is restricted, it will have the opposite effect, threatening heterosexual marriage instead of helping it because when you deny the notion of marriage based on love and nurturing relationships, you demean the institution. Also, you can't have civil rights for some and penalize others.

The state legislating abortion is a power play. Those who protest at abortion clinics bear little responsibility for child care. They have no solution for the myriad children who have "fallen through the cracks" in the system and are subjected to child abuse. Some of these Right-wingers are practitioners of child abuse as well because they subscribe to a violent authoritarian approach to child rearing.

This is going to be an ungoing dialogue and some of the assumptions that have been glibly asserted by demagogues on the Right will be increasingly challenged.

This is what I meant about a symbolic civil war that is going on now.

The only solution I can think of at this point is to realistically determine the approach that will benefit our society and world community and unfortunately there are too many who think of this as taking sides and shouting invectives against those they disagree with.

There needs to be a responsible dialogue coming from the Left as well. It can't be just about one side winning over the other. Platitudes and shiboleths need to be challenged from all sides and at times forcefully.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM

You make some great points, Frank. It is definitely time for the positive framing by democrats to begin. I hope Kerry not only knows, but consults with some experts on how to do it. Lakoff would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:30 PM

"As long as gun control is considered a right, not a privilege (as driving a car)
there will continue to be crimes committed. The NRA has not managed to assuage gun violence in the US which is more pronounced here than in other countries."


As long as religion is considered a right, not a privilege (as driving a car)
there will continue to be crimes committed.


As long as freedom of speech is considered a right, not a privilege (as driving a car)
there will continue to be crimes committed.



These are just as accurate statements. If you weaken the Bill of rights for a percieved "saftey", you weaken it for all the rights that are provided there.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:07 PM

no, Bruce, those are NOT "as accurate"....they are not really even comparable. Look up 'informal fallacies' read for a week or two, and get back to me...

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:32 AM

here is Lakoff's 2nd dispatch on the "night of compassion"

The Republicans are now trying to preempt traditional Democratic areas and show that THEY are concerned about the common man. Hidden in the language, though, are many of the same old themes of lower taxes(guess who gets the most 'lowering') and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and don't depend on govt. help", which itself is code for "only the strong & rich deserve to get stronger & richer".

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 05:13 PM

finally, here is the analysis of what happened last night --what Lakoff calls "Red Meat night"..*grin*....he uses the opportunity to differentiate between "spin" "framing", which are both sort of legitimate tools for a political party, and pure 'distortion', which is NOT.

Zell Miller and Dick Cheney both indulged in ALL of these last night.

There is a difference between feeling that you have the best party, the best ideas, and the best plan---and feeling that you have some sort of pre-destined 'holy mission' and MUST win. The Islamic extremists defend terrorism this way, and the Republicans are VERY close to using and defending outright lies and distortions for similar reasons. It did not take much listening to Elizibeth Dole proclaiming her faith in the same sentences as she touted the leadership of G.W. to realize that 'separation of church & state' is a weakened concept these days. Ms. Dole said "..we are guaranteed freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion." ...............I'm sorry, Ms. Dole, but if those who do not care to practice a religion cannot do so without pressure and intimidation, then freedom is an empty word.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:12 PM

refresh...just because

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:18 PM

Bearded Bruce, the Center For Disease Control has cited the gun violence epidemic as one of the most powerful viruses in America.

Guns make crimes so much more easy to commit.

Frank
.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

Nerd, I hope Kerry knows. I really think he does. He has tried to focus on his agenda. It's become painfully obvious that many Americans are simply not
interested in the very issues that are hurting them.

The Culture War has taken precedence.   I think Kerry has yet to realize this.

Lakoff's article as you say is a must read for any Progressive.

The problem seems to be that Democrats are so civilized. The Republican Party revealed itself last night to be barbaric in their lies and brutal in their simplistic solutions. To get Kerry to be like Cheney or Miller and hurl cruel invectives for political gain is not in his nature. Bush may be able to stay above the fray through "positive deniability", regarding the Swift Boat issues but the very nature of the Convention can't be lost on any reasonable civilized person. It has reached a new low in American politics.

What Cheney and Miller did last night was shameful.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM

did anyone see the interview with Karl Rove on TV yesterday? No?...I suspect you don't channel surf like I do. Karl doesn't GIVE interviews to just anyone--this was on The 700 Club, where Pat Robertson hangs out. You can guess the tone of Roves' remarks.

If anyone had any doubts about driving forces behind the Bush campaign...................

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:52 AM

Did anyone see Zell Miller on Hardball? He flipped out and challenged Chris Matthews to a duel!

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM

Zell is really weird. I met him a time or two and was not impressed with his demeanor. He seemed self-important.
Not a real populist as he pretends to be. He is an advocate of Country Music here in Georgia but for the most part a member of the "good ol' boy" network. Probably a holdover Dixiecrat.

John Lewis (rep. of Georgia) was shocked at Zell's transformation.

"Zig Zag Zell" they call him.

His speech was highly incoherent. I think he may be making a play for the Right-wing which is very big in Georgia. Sounds like political opportunism to me.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

Zell is close to what is called a "loose cannon"...he will probably BE a Republican after this election...he sure won't be welcome in any Democratic circles.....Chris Matthews seemed to enjoy the exchange...

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM

He has to discuss skeletons in other people's closets. People who play 'fair' against this group of Republican bastards are called losers. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:25 PM

Kerry needs to know you have to put your dick back in your pants before you pull up your zipper.

Subject: RE: BS: An analysis of what Kerry needs to know
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM

Bush needs to know you have to unzip before peeing.