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Left Handed violin

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GUEST,JR 01 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM
MaineDog 01 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM
curmudgeon 01 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM
wysiwyg 01 Sep 04 - 10:17 AM
Jeri 01 Sep 04 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Jess A 01 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM
s&r 01 Sep 04 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Stew 01 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM
HiHo_Silver 01 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Sandy Mc Lean (lost cookie) 01 Sep 04 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Stew 01 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM
Nerd 01 Sep 04 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,JR 01 Sep 04 - 04:20 PM
wysiwyg 01 Sep 04 - 05:19 PM
Sorcha 01 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,JR 02 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,JR 02 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM
Pauline L 13 Jan 06 - 08:26 PM
Ned Ludd 14 Jan 06 - 07:10 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jan 06 - 07:42 AM
Pauline L 15 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM
Sorcha 15 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM
Pauline L 15 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM
Ned Ludd 15 Jan 06 - 06:50 PM
Pauline L 16 Jan 06 - 02:17 AM
cobber 21 Jan 06 - 12:57 AM
Pauline L 21 Jan 06 - 01:49 AM
Gary T 21 Jan 06 - 03:23 AM
Ned Ludd 21 Jan 06 - 04:23 AM
Ned Ludd 21 Jan 06 - 07:28 AM
Pauline L 22 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,coyote@thecoyote.com 09 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,christy 15 Dec 07 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,ptalerico7221 23 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM
jonm 24 Jan 08 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,buspassed 24 Jan 08 - 07:16 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Jan 08 - 08:11 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 24 Jan 08 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,ancient briton 24 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM
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Subject: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,JR
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:52 AM

I've been wanting to learn violin for a few years and yesterday got a good deal on a beginning level violin. I'll try to play it right handed, but am pretty sure I'll end up wanting to string it left handed. Is there any down side to stringing them backward? Does it affect tone? Other than reversing the strings and the bridge, is there anything else that should be done for that kind of a conversion?
Thanks


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: MaineDog
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM

Hi Guest,JR,
A true left handed fiddle has to be made differently from the start.

The sound post is on the (high) a-string side, and the bass bar is on the (low) g-string side, and these are internal, and cannot be switched. There are other subtle differences in construction as well. You could expect that merely switching the strings and reshaping the bridge and the nut would get you started but would not result in a truly good sound. Also you may find that getting good instruction is difficult, as most teachers and players play right handed even if they are true lefties.
MD


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: curmudgeon
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:12 AM

Check out this book. And while you're at the website look through it for more info on left hand playing and other great music info -- Tom
-


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:17 AM

I've referred the question to our local luthier and asked him to reply. When the time comes, he may be the man to refit a violin for you to play lefty, or he may have one on hand.

Another option might be to play an electrified one, to get around the basic construction problems outlined above.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:21 PM

Sound posts are held in by pressure and can be easily switched, bass bars can't. (I'm not sure the bass bar would prevent the sound post fitting. I've never been in there). Tuning pegs have to all move, or your hand will keep running into the peg for the e-string. This requires filling and re-drilling of holes. As to lessons and learning, it may actually be easier to see what folks are playing if they're a mirror image. I don't play lefty, but I considered it. What with the expense of converting and instrument and the dangers of dueling fiddle necks when sitting next to other fiddlers, or poking a guitarist's eye out, I went rightie.

Regarding Ryan Thompson's (Captain Fiddle) site (see curmudgeon's links), also see this page.
Ryan's 'bi' - he started out rightie and switched to leftie, so he's got a very good understanding of the blessings and curses of both.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,Jess A
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM

out of interest, why do you feel you'll want to switch to playing left handed? as a right handed fiddle player I'd have said I use both hands and arms equally while playing (albeit in different ways). Although obviously I'm used to the way I play and having done it this way for 23 years can't concieve of switching, each arm has had to learn it's own set of specialised movements in order to play and I don't _think_ that being right handed in normal life means that my right hand is naturally better for bowing with, or my left hand better for fingering with. I'd be interested to hear other opinions though...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: s&r
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:38 PM

Our experience (one righty and one lefty) is that handedness doesn't matter while everything is clumsy. Once handedness with an instrument is established it's very hard to switch. I have a guitar pupil who plays right handed although he is left handed: he had some problems because he played the bodhran left handed.

It's not a single handed skill: it doesn't matter much which way round you learn - as Jess says, both hands do complex movements.

If you've never played, don't even pick the instrument up left handed; borrow an instrument and work for a while. If you go left handed you have problems buying/converting/changing instruments (unless you play the other way round so the top string is furthest away from your bow hand. This brings its own problems.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:41 PM

I reversed the strings and played a bit of lefty fiddle. The biggest problem was that the tuning pegs interfered with the knuckles of my right hand. You would have to reverse the pegs which would involve plugging and and redrilling to accomodate the bevel, etc. Best to have a fiddle made from scratch for a lefty.
Stew


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM

I have repaired as goodly number of violins and have never seen a left handed violin. It would be interesting to know if there is or ever was a violin constructed for left handed playing. It presents a whole number of problems: Bass bar location, sound post location as well as graduations in the thickness of the top etc. I have several acquaintences who play left handed (only old time fiddle music) but play a right handed configuration by bowing with the left hand from the bass side. Some just simply shift the strings in reverse. Is acceptable in old time music. Unable to see too terribely much deteriotation in sound and playing quality. Hope this helps a little. Will look forward to someone posting on a truly left handed violin.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,Sandy Mc Lean (lost cookie)
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:41 PM

Many of the best Cape Breton style fiddle players such as Kinnon Beaton and Ashley MacIsaac are lefties. They play a right hand strung fiddle upside down, holding it left handed. They then learn to play with the bass strings on the bottom and the high ones on top. The problem of peg interference is overcome by holding it with the body of the fiddle at right angle to the floor. This allows the index finger to easily reach up to the nut.
       Slainte,
          Sandy


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:17 PM

HiHo, there are loads of true lefty fiddles sold on e-bay. As to their quality, I don't know, but they seem to have all the features reversed in a correct fashion.
Stew


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:21 PM

So that's why those guys hold the fiddle so weird! I kinda wondered about that...


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,JR
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:20 PM

Thanks all for all the good info... though not exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm left handed and play guitar & banjo right handed. When I think of playing a violin I can only imagine holding it in my right hand and bowing left handed. With a lot of work I can only imagine approaching mediocrity.. so may try just reversing strings and see if that the tuning peg causes too much trouble. It will be old time fiddle music and my own songs... so it may be ok. Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:19 PM

Keep checking back in case my friend weighs in.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM

Well, because of the aforementioned problems with the sound post, bass bar and tuning pegs, I strongly suspect you will not be pleased with the sound. Also, on 'good' to 'decent' violins, the inside of the belly and top are carved differently for lefties. BUT, I have seen and heard lefties using a right handed fiddle with just the strings reversed that sounded good and won contests. So, do what you will.

IMO, since your left hand is dominant and the left hand does a LOT of the work on a fiddle, you should be able to play quite well in standard position.

My (now deceased)friend Stuart Mossman made only 2 left handed guitars in his entire career, and said he would never make another one. Too much work to think backwards.

IF you decide to have one custom made, PM me...I may have some contacts for you.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,JR
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM


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Subject: RE: Tech: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,JR
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM

OOPs.. and thanks again.. I will keep looking.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:26 PM

I teach violin/fiddle, and I was recently contacted by someone who is a lefty and wants to learn to play a left-handed violin. She is an adult and has never played violin/fiddle before. This is not an impulse on her part. She loves music and has played piano, both classical and jazz, since childhood. She has done a lot of research and has bought a left-handed violin and some books and a video about how to play it. Everyone she has spoken to has told her not to play a left-handed violin, but she is determined.

There are left-handed violins. Some are made for lefties, and some are conventional violins with the setup done differently (interchange the soundpost and bass bar, reverse the order of the strings.)

Most of the artistry of playing the violin is in the bowing. Really. There is some advantage to using the dominant hand to hold the bow since fine motor skills are needed. If a left-handed student starts learning violin as a child, there is usually no problem using a conventional violin. One of my students, age 8, is left-handed and very talented. She has no problem playing violin the conventional way. Her bow hold is wonderful, and she sounds great.

I have consulted with people who play and/or teach classical violin, and many of them are left-handed. I'm astounded at their responses. They are very, very emotional about saying no. Their point of view is that this woman must be mentally ill, wants special attention, wants to be coddled, etc. The emotionality reminds me of gay/straight fights. I have only heard one rational argument for not playing left-handed, and that is that it would be inconvenient for ensemble playing. Personally, I'm not much impressed with this argument. Small changes in seating should take care of the problem.

My take of the situation is that this woman is unconventional and determined, but not necessarily someone who just wants coddling. My sympathy has been aroused. Hell, I'm unconventional and determined, too. I pride myself on my versatile teaching style. I find my students' wants and needs and try to work with them. This is especially important for teaching adult beginners. Many classical violin teachers do not want to teach adult beginners.

I wonder whether the "hell no" attitude I have been hearing is related to the fact that these people are classical violinists. That's why I'm asking Mudcatters for their opinions.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:10 AM

I have always been of the opinion that wanting to play an instrument left handed was phsycological because as was said earlier both hands are used, albeit differently.This does not mean that people who insist they can't play right handed are wrong...in order to play well you need to be comfortable.
The problem is that a left handed violin means reversing the whole design and that means that most makers would be effectively working 'left handed' and could therefore make a poorer instrument due to their unfamiliarity with that way of working.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:42 AM

I found that I was able to play the Piano Accordion 'left handed" i.e. upside down, but only did so when I was learning. It actually improved my playing normal handed quite a lot, cause I had to think extra hard to play it 'back-asswards'. I discovered this trick many years ago as a child, playing squash left handed and later on, learning to fence etc left handed made improve more rapidly than just sticking with the right handed method alone.

I suspect it's to do with my damaged brain wiring, when the physiotherapist diagnosed me with MMD (from birth) at age 40, I had already tried all those tricks, so she said I had already done all the sort of tricks to help my brain work around the damaged areas.

I haven't really persisted with the Piano accordion upside down (at the time I was able to play nearly as well as normal) for some years as I was learning new techniques that were difficult enough to train the muscles and nerve pathways to cope with.

I used to be able to play the whistle either hand uppermost too.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM

The right and left hands are NOT equal for playing the violin. Most of the artistry and fine motor control are for the bowing, as I said in my previous post. There are good luthiers who make left-handed violins, and my student has one, as I said in my previuos post. Please read before you shoot your mouth, especially if you're going to write someone off as a psychological problem.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

Darn sure can't follow their fingers tho! LOL!


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 06:13 PM

So true, Sorcha. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 06:50 PM

Pauline, You are entitled to your opinions, but before you accuse people of shooting their mouth off you should give them the respect of reading their post also.I wrote off no ones problems, I have come across many instrumentalists who are left handed. some of whom are brilliant....playing right handed!
My comments on making are informed, as I have been making and restoring violins for many years.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 02:17 AM

Ned, are you familiar with these? They're very interesting.

http://home.tiac.net/~cfiddle/lefthandedbook.html
http://www.violinslover.com/lefthandedviolins4_4.php


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: cobber
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 12:57 AM

There's a book called Folk Songs Of Australia, can't remember the author but I bet Bob Bolton would know it. It has a picture of an old timer who fiddled but lost his left hand in a threshing machine so he just relearned to finger with his right and held the bow with the clamp on his prosthesis arm. It doesn't say what he sounded like but they collected a few songs and tunes from him in the old days.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:49 AM

Cobber, I really admire anyone who can do that.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:23 AM

Living in a world where most devices are designed for righties, lefties necessarily learn to do some things right-handed. They generally can do more with their right hands than righties can with their left hands, and generally have a better-developed comprehension of mirror image. However, they vary in the degree to which they feel their left-handedness.

For some, playing a right-handed instrument is no big deal. For others, it's a huge deal. I am left-handed with a strong sense of it. When I held a right-handed guitar in normal right-handed position, it felt so awkward that I immediately abandoned the idea of playing that way. So with full knowledge of the many inconveniences that accompany playing a left-handed guitar, I chose to do so.

Natural arm position for most people is to have the dominant arm closer to the body, and the other arm extended somewhat. You see this is many things -- a boxing stance, holding a rifle, holding a guitar, holding a violin. If you're right-handed, try doing these things in a left-handed way, with the left arm closest to your body and your right arm reaching out. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that you find it feels strange and disconcerting.

Ned, you may know a lot about violins, but it is apparent you don't know what it's like to be left-handed. I find your comment about wanting to play a left-handed instrument being a psychological matter bothersome, and actually a bit insulting. If the only violins available to you were left-handed, and everyone told you that you had to play them in a left-handed position, would your desire to play a right-handed violin in a right-handed position be psychological? I don't think so. There are sound physiological and neurological reasons for wanting to do what feels natural.

The fact that some lefties play fine right-handed illustrates their unavoidable practice in doing some things right-handed and/or a lesser sense of their left-handedness. It does not mean that all lefties can do likewise.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 04:23 AM

True I don't Know what it's like to be left handed, and I take back that Ill thought comment about it not being Physical. That argument about fine Motor control may be correct for playing a violin. The fact still remains that left handed instruments are difficult to find, expensive to buy( In comparison to entry level right handed ones) and likely to not sound as well.
Which was the main point I tried to make.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 21 Jan 06 - 07:28 AM

Interesting web sites Pauline. The author of the book on lefthanded violin says at one point that he has good friends who have totally opposite opinions to him.I'm glad that there are those that allow and respect differing opinions in the world.
As for Me, I'll say no more until I have looked further into the subject as I allow that I don't yet know enough to comment further.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Pauline L
Date: 22 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM

You're so generous Ned. I'm impressed. I'm glad that you clarified your position. Someone reading your earlier comments might have thought that you meant that wanting to play a left-handed violin is a psychological problem. I've seen prices for left-handeed violins listed at about $350. I don't know their quality, but I hope to learn soon. I would not be surprised if left-handed violins cost more than right-handed violins because the market for the former is smaller.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,coyote@thecoyote.com
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 02:31 PM

I am looking for a left handed shoulder rest. Do you have any suggestions?


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,christy
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 06:00 AM

try the artino shoulder rest on ebay.it has no curves so,it should suit both left and right players.i hope this helps.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,ptalerico7221
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM

I am a lefty and quite dominant as such. I do play left handed fiddle and have for 7 months. I have a patient teacher and doesn't mind teaching me. My violin was made in Romania as a left handed violin and was set up for fiddle. I also play guitar left handed and wouldn't even entertain the thought of playing right handed. I am a pure lefty and though I agree there are levels of dominance.....it's lefty for me. I have no desire for chamber music or chairs of a symphony !


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: jonm
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:41 AM

I think that handedness can be regarded as a scale - some people are very one-handed and others closer to ambidextrous. I am strongly left-handed. I made the decision early on in my musical career to accept the limitations of that. I play guitar left handed, piano accordion upside-down, even reverse the hands on a whistle.

Having learned a mandolin (strung in fifths like a fiddle) upside-down, taking advantage of the GDAE becoming EADG and using all my guitar chords straight away, I have tried a righty fiddle inverted.

Most of the dexterity required is definitely in the bowing hand. I can play with the instrument nearly vertical in the crook of my arm, which enables reasonable fingering, but vibrato is more challenging. I have, however, found that playing it upright on the knee (like a small cello) works well and puts the higher strings on the bowing-hand side.


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:16 AM

Some time ago I queried as to whether there were any left- handed fiddlers on the current folk scene. An interesting discussion ensued leaving me with the distinct impression that the violin/fiddle was the only instrument which left handers were 'persuaded' to play the 'correct' right handed way! As a member of the '12% Club' and having 2 L/H offspring this situation irked me no end [possibly due to memories of being knocked about at junior school when an idiot teacher tried to teach the L/H'd class members italic handwriting without realising we needed L/H nibs. [How strange, I've just recalled the man's name after 50 odd years, Mr. Bergstrand.]

Since this discussion I've been looking out for L/H violinists/fiddlers in all fields of music without any success until several months when I happened to catch BBC4's docco on 'The 3rd. Programme' and there playing with the 'Allegri Quartet' in '56 was a violinist going the 'wrong' way. On checking the details he was called James Barton and he played quite a radically altered instrument, new bass bar & peg box together with the sound post shifted.[Obviously not a Strad!]

So there's another name to be added to the Sinistral Heroes book and to any young wannabee fiddler get yerself one of those new fangled solid bodied instruments,L/H of course! Plug it in and go totally Barton!


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:11 AM

Ashley plays upside down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt8ksq4LQss


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:16 AM

Also Kinnon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk5Jv5oGCq8


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Subject: RE: Left Handed violin
From: GUEST,ancient briton
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM

it's interesting that lefties seeme to be expected to struggle with right handed playing, on the grounds that fiddle makers can't do mirror image work reliably.


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