Help learning fiddle

Subject: Lyr Add: hlep learning fiddle
From: laugh
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:49 AM

HI out there :) I am new to learning the fiddle. Just started about a month and a half ago. My teacher is a music teacher and does not actually PLAY the fiddle. I am a little frustrated with learning the correct way to use the bow. I was watching some fiddlers paly and they seem to have their wrist arched? Is there any exercises that can help me with this and also some exercises with learning how to get my fingers moving better? I very much enjoy playing the fiddle I practice for an hour and a half a day or more. I just can't seem to put it down!! I am very excited that I found this site!!!! any information you have would be useful I am sure!
Thanks in advance!!
Laugh :)

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:15 AM

Do NOT try to learn to play fiddle from a violin teacher.

You and your teacher will simply annoy and frustrate each other.

See
"Twelve questions violinists ask about fiddling"
http://www.dhebert.com/publications/fiddleFAQ.html

Do NOT ask a violin teacher whether you should study fiddle with a violin teacher. Ask a fiddler. Ask someone who is now where you want to be.

No matter what benefits might derive from studying violin, if you want to play fiddle, CUT TO THE CHASE.

If you BEGIN with violin, it will take you forever to stop sounding like a fiddler with classical training. Know 'em. Play with 'em.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:32 AM

it will take you forever to stop sounding like a fiddler with classical training

Well, I certainly still do but I put that down to lack of practice. I know several very fine fiddlers who began with classical training who also teach. In workshops they maintain that the only real difference is in bowing technique (and, obviously, how you hold it).

I couldn't recommend more highly workshops run by the Wren Trust but If you can say where you are, I'm sure someone will be able to suggest a good fiddle teacher local to you.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:46 AM

OOPS!

After reading Countess Richard's response I realized that I had made an UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTION.

My remarks apply only to traditional fiddling of the American southern mountains (aka "old time fiddling"). That is the only fiddling with which I have significant experience.

It's not just me. My remarks voice a common perception among old time musicians. My old time fiddling friends who began with classical training will be the first to admit that it took forever for them to overcome it.

OF COURSE a VIOLIN teacher will push classical training. It's their job. Might as well ask a tuba player about the best way to learn the banjo.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

Oh, I do agree with you, Russ, in my own experience. I was just pointing out that some very experienced fiddle teachers (Scottish and English style) have told me not to get too worried about it.

Laugh might find this online tutor useful.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:42 AM

Surely, many of the very impressive young fiddlers emerging today from the British Isles have a classical background. For example, Kate Rusby's mate ( totally forgotten his name! ), and that chap in Malinky.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: laugh
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:26 AM

wow! Thanks for the response!
I should tell you that i live in Alberta, Canada. It is a very remote little place. A military base. There is not alot around and she is the only violin/fiddle teacher around. I do not know a whole lot about the different styles. only that i want to play country music. Much like the Dixie Chicks. not sure what to call the style.
I think what i need the most right now is how to use the bow properly. I seem to be going sideways on the strings alot so the sound is well, pretty awful :)any suggestions?
thanks
Laugh

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 11:58 AM

Make sure you have a couple of lessons in the basics. Bad posture and techinique will cause you probelms and pain later on. Learn the correct way to hold the fiddle/violin and the bow and get out to as many sessions as possible to learn different styles. The violin and fiddle are the same...the difference is the style of playing. Perservere through the frustration of learning a new instrument and you will get many years of enjoyment out of it!

Good luck!

Khatt

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 12:31 PM

I would not worry about it too much at this point. Learning to bow is difficult. Getting the angle and learning to keep your wrist loose and the bow perpindicular to the strings are very basic, and how to hold your fiddle or violin where you are not supporting it with your right hand which will allow you to finger better. Work on basic bowing and intonation. The basic are the basics. Whether you play classical or tradition you should have this foundation. regardless of what you play you want good tone.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Laugh: I am not clear from your first post whether your teacher plays the classical violin style, but not fiddle style: or whether she doesnt play the instrument at all. I think if she doesnt play at all, you need to get a fiddle-teaching video to help, if there is really no fiddler around.
Or alternatively, just get cracking, Learn to bow the rhythm bum-titty bum-titty bum-titty-bum-titty fast and solid. Then you're off! Keep the bow at right angles to the string and go for it.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Pauline L
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:12 PM

I'm writing from the perspective of a violin/fiddle teacher. No matter what kind of music you end up playing, it is important to get a solid grounding in basic techniques. The violin/fiddle is physically, technically difficult. You need to learn how to hold the violin, how to hold the bow, how to move the bow across the strings, and how to play in tune, no matter what. Even, or especially, if you play folk or traditional music, you will be a much better player, artistically, if you learn some more techniques and ways to express emotion in your playing. There is a big difference between playing notes and playing music. Technique and feeling are both essential, regardless of the genre.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: laugh
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:39 PM

I have to say
I LOVE THIS FORUM! You people have been awsome!
I would like to thank countess richard for the site FOLK OF THE WOOD!
What a fantastic site.

the instructor i have does not play the fiddle or the violin. When i asked her for help in the bowing she couldn't suggest anything. I am learning how to read music from her as well.
Reading the music is going great. but little problems i am having with sound and bowing well, she just doesn't know what to tell me.. but she is the only one around so i am stuck.. until... i found this site! :)    you guys are amazing with your knowlegde and also your response time... all i can say is THANK YOU! Should I have an arch in my wrist or keep it straight? when i keep it straight i tend to go sideways on the strings
thanks
Laugh

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

Putting the arch in your wrist makes for a lot more relaxed control and range of sounds, but I've heard a lot of amazing attacking traditional fiddlers who dont thold the bow like that at all.
   If you teacher doesnt know anything about bowing, get a fiddle book that does help with bowing(simple shuffles etc). Then get your teacher to help you work through the instructions in the book, she will probably be able to understand them quicker than you if she's a music teacher. Just a thought. I taught someone to play the fiddle once like this years ago, and I couldnt play a note on it myself. I just tried to pass on what I knew ther people did, either from experience or looking it up. And that pupil has made a helluva lot of good fiddle records, so I know the process works!

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: laugh
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:38 PM

I don't know what a shuffle is :(

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:47 PM

There are some fiddle camps in Alberta that you might want to investigate.

The Foothills Acoustic Music Institute runs camps in the spring and jams in the fall just west of Calgary.

Here is another link to fiddle organizations and events in Alberta:
Alberta Fiddle Links

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:48 PM

Shuffle-bow is a accompanying fiddler's bowing technique/rhythm that can sound like ONE, two-and-three, four-and ONE, two-and-three, four-and

and so forth.

Runs under the melody while someone does melody.

Right, experts?

~S~

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

A shuffle is a word to desribe a basic rhythm on the fiddle. The most common rhythms (in Ameircan and British fiddling, anyway) are
1) the simple shuffle, which is played with one lonng note and two short ones, the rhythm comes out as bumtitty bumtitty etc.
2) Sawmill, chatanooga or alligator bowing. This just involves one bow struck per note, the words alligator or chatanooga repeated fast give you the rhythm you are aiming at. These shuffles are the basis of folk fiddling(though accomplished fidders can get waway from using them much, in all sorts of ways). But these are definitely the first things to learn if you want to be a fiddler. Just put your bow on the D and A string together aand try either of these rhyhms . Have fun. When you're trying the chaatanooga one, play a don bow first, and just go up and down. All the main beats will be down bows. When doing the bumtitty rhythm (the "simple shuffle" or just "the shuffle"), if you start on a down bow, you'll find the next dtrong beat(on "bum") will be an up-bow. They alternate, which seems awkard, but plug away till youve got this rhyhtm. That is what people will dance all night to!

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: treewind
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM

Greg, for some reason I've got you down as a guitar player.
Do you play fiddle as well?
(well, obviously yes...)

That (long, short-short)rhythmic pattern is something I've been thinking I might focus on if I'm ever called upon to run a melodeon workshop.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: BanjoRay
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 07:25 PM

If you want to learn what a classically trained Southern Appalachian fiddler CAN sound like, listen to Rayna Gellert. Totally amazing, but I expect people as talented are few and far between.
Brad Leftwich has a couple of excellent Old Time fiddle instruction videos - well worth the money, and will answer many questions.
Cheers
Ray (who didn't start fiddling till he was 57 and sounds like it)

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Scoville
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

I just figured when the bow stopped grating and squalling I was doing it right. No kidding. I've been self-teaching for almost a year and am actually making progress, believe it or not.

I actually took Suzuki lessons for a year but I was four years old at the time and I don't think much of it stuck with me.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 08:27 AM

Hey Laugh,

I typed into Google "Alberta Folk Festival 2005". You have quite a few in Alberta in the coming year. You are sure to find a few fiddle work shops at one of these festivals.

Good Luck!

Don

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:18 AM

Treewind(Anahata): I'm not a fiddler at all, I am a guitarist. But having spent 35 boring years strumming chords to accompany fiddlers, and having nothing better to do than listen and watch what they were up to, I've picked up a few hints! And I did teach a beginner fiddler once, by passing on what I knew(without being able to do it myself).

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

Learning to use the bow is one of the most important and most difficult aspects of playing a technically difficult instrument. They don't call it "the devil's instrument" for nothing. Most of the artistry and emotion of playing the violin/fiddle is in the use of the bow.

Here is how I start students with bowing on the very first lesson. It's good to repeat, too, as you improve. Place your bow on the D or A string, halfway between the bridge and fingerboard, with all the hairs touching the string. Now, move your bow parallel to the bridge. See how slowly and steadily you can do it. This will give you a nice, even tone. If you hear a squawk coming from your violin, loosen up on the bow. The most common mistake is pressing down too hard on the bow. It may seem strange, but you get the greatest control of the bow when your hand is the most relaxed. At first, play mostly in the middle part of the bow; it's easiest there. (Same reason for starting on the D or A string -- it's easiest.) Gradually lengthen your bow strokes until you can play with the whole bow and still produce a steady, even sound.

It's hard for me to believe that anyone who doesn't know bowing would dare call himself or herself a violin/fiddle teacher. Are you sure there isn't someone else who is accessible to you?

There are a lot of good tutorials on the Internet with very good photos. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'll look for some good ones for you.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

The long-short-short pattern of bowing is the one that most students find most difficult, probably because we have two hands and two feet, so moving in threes seems unnatural. Stick with it until you get the feel for it. It's so much fun to play waltzes and jigs.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Jess A
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 04:18 AM

at one point when I was learning (what am I saying? I'm still learning!! but, you know what I mean, at an earlier stage...) I was told that the best thing to get a relaxed bow hold was to support the weight of the bow with your left hand, place your right thumb on the bow (slight bend to the thumb is helpful, resting slightly underneath the stick) and let the fingers flop over the top of the stick in a completely relaxed fashion, so that the wood runs beneath your second knuckles (almost - on my hand it ends up slightly further towards my finger tips than that, but only a bit.Guess it depends on the shape of your hand). That is about the right position - then you grip just tight enough to not drop the bow when you let go with your left hand - you may need to adjust your grip a bit for it to feel comfortable. The idea is that there should be no tension across the back of your hand or in your wrist. The bow should be sitting oin the end of your thumb and held there by the weight of your relaxed & floppy fingers, rather than gripped there by a pincer action between thumb and fingers. As for the position of the rest of your arm - I do have a slightly arched wrist when I play. As much of the motion when bowing comes from your upper arm as from your elbow. In fact all three joints (shoulder, elbow and wrist) move when you've got a good bowing action. My guess from your description of the problems you're having may be that your trying to do most of the movement from your elbow, and that your wrist, shoulder and/or arm in general may be too tense.

I'd definitely go along with the advice other people have given re: the long slow bow exercise and re: getting either 'teach yourself' style videos or even just videos of people playing the kind of style you want to aim at. Plus grabbing every opportunity you can get to play with other fiddlers.

Jess

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: s&r
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM

I was told that the fiddler holds the fiddle and the fiddle holds the bow - in other words, don't grip the bow like a hammer and don't press down. Arching the wrist: if you try long bow strokes keeping the bow at right angles to the string, you'll find that bowing near the tip needs a hollowed wrist, and bowing near the heel needs a raised wrist - but not the exaggerated bent wrist all the time that does nothing except hurt. Using the middle of the bow at the beginning as was suggested should be done with a fairly straight wrist.

The fiddle is often held horizontally by beginners. Tilted down on the treble side makes a huge difference in ease of bowing. A well fitted shouder rest makes this easier. You must make contact with a player who can help with these basics. They're hard to put into words, but easy to correct at the beginning,

Failing all else, get some pictures and a mirror and get your posture and hold right.

Stu

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: slowerairs
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

Hello Stu and Happy New Year. Might need a few fiddle lessons from
you myself, as the accordion gets heavier and heavier as time goes on. Love to Rusty. Hope to rejoin band again this year.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:24 PM

If hitting the note is frustrating you then try playing with a tuner in your line of sight. It helps separate the problems of getting the note and playing the tune - once the confidence starts, switch it off.

Divide and conquer.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:57 AM

just got one - how do I tune it please?

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:02 PM

G D A E, E is the string furthest from you,learn to tune to a note.the whole point about playing a violin/fiddle,is that unlike a fixed note instrument or a fretted instrument,your ear iS the only guide you have, you have to listen carefully as to whether you are sharp or flat and adjust.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:57 PM

It's funny, I've never played violin or fiddle and yet, as of late, I've been giving serious thought to buying a violin. Sounds stupid to buy one if I don't play but, if you want to learn, you have to have one to learn on. It's crazy, I don't know shit about playing a violin, I've never even attempted it. I think I held a violin in my hands once--that's about it. I know nothing about the bow or rosin or technique or jack. But I sure would love to get one and I sure would love to learn to play one. And I know where to get one--actually, I can get my pick of them. And the fact that I can get one and they're easily affordable and I'm itching to learn to play one is making it really hard for me to resist.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:44 AM

the wrist is important. hold your bow with a bent thumb,that way youcan get more wrist movement and you will make a pleasant tone,practice longbows keeping the boW straight ,282Ado it now.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:34 AM

Why then go out and start learning! It's easier to learn as a youngster but it's never too late to learn and all that.
If you'll take my advice you'll rent for a while before buying though. A decent violin is quite pricey and it'd be a shame to spend loads and then leave it hanging on the wall. If you do buy, I suggest you bring along someone who knows their way around a violin. A first violin is a rather tricky balance between getting one that's cheap so it isn't a huge waste if it never really gets played and getting one that sounds good so the guy learning won't get depressed by bad tone that isn't his fault.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,jo
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:18 AM

I like to keep the wrist quite relaxed. A few times the bow has shot out of my hand its been so relaxed. I practice simple tunes using different rythems walking about to get the feel of the rythems. Twinkle twinkle little star repeating notes as a waltz jig hornpipe and reel is fun.
Learn tunes and play by ear from the beginning and you will get a better start.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM

there's an adjustment device on the bow as well, what's it for , please?

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM

the adustment on the bow is to slacken and tighten the bow hair. WHen you are not using the bow, you should slacken the bow hair off.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:59 PM

how much should the bow hair be tightened?

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:04 PM

I would say at least to the point at which the wood will not be touching the hair as you play - after that, to the point at which it seems comfortable .... It will take a while before you get a real feeling for that, but it will come, like a lot of things. Don't worry too much about it. Just don't wind it really, really, really tight.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

Remember that it's supposed to curve back towards the string. So long as it isn't curved the wrong way or even just flat you're probably not tightening it too far. Also don't loosen it too far. If the hairs aren't kept fairly flat they can tangle up a bit and you get a less constant tone or something. Other than that it's down to how flexible the bow is and how hard you press down on it when you play.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:59 PM

Well, I bought me a fiddle. A Palatino VN-450 4/4. Spruce belly, maple neck, back and sides, frog bow with Mongolian horsehair. Made in China so I guess it's convenient.

It's a pretty cheap little axe, well under $200, but it works. It tunes and it handles. Not much with pizzicato but neither am I. I'm not paying for anything more costly until I get handle on this fiddle thing. I bought a Mel Bay DVD to go with it that has Craig Duncan showing all the basics which is what I need right now. I'm just learning how to tune the thing (you have to push and turn or it unravels and then you fine tune it on the tailpiece), hold it under my chin, hold the bow, keep the thumb straight on the fingering hand, and draw the string nice and even across each string separately. I've done it until my neck hurts. I'm just going to keep at this for a while until it feels natural cuz right now it sure as hell doesn't.

I'll get it though. I always do.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:27 PM

You might want to do a neck rotation - of your own neck, that is - and a few stretches of arms and back before practising ...

especially if you're beyond 14 years old!

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:29 PM

It'll probably take a while, but it's well worth the effort. If you already play other instruments it'll probably be quicker. Happy fiddling anyway.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:19 AM

If ya wanna start fiddling, then just keep your hands out of your pockets.

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: BanjoRay
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 07:54 AM

I love playing banjo with good fiddle players, and to improve my banjo playing, I took up fiddle 7 years ago. It's given me a better way of listening to fiddle tunes, and definitely improved my banjo playing. Now, if I'm teaching banjo it's great to play the tune on the fiddle and have my student playing banjo with it. Cheers us both up, he's less concerned about playing exactly what I'm playing and more with making the tune sound good.
To learn fiddle (or anything else) it helps to play along with someone playing a different instrument.
Ray

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 07:58 AM

Thanks all so far for tips & hints.

Even tho I can't play it at all, I'll be taking it along to my weakly sesh tomorrow night & attempt to empty the place!!

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM

Um ... I don't want be discouraging, but ... don't you think it might be a little SOON to be taking it to a session ... ?

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 08:51 AM

not all.

when learing melodeon,I took it to sessions only being able to play 'skip to my loo"!

Subject: RE: Help learning fiddle
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 07:56 PM

After my first full day of playing fiddle, I've learned Mary Had A Little Lamb, Liza Jane, Camptown Ladies, The Bear Went Over the Mountain and a few others. All played monophonically and in the key of C. But considering I couldn't play a damned thing yesterday, I'm rather pleased and I'm even getting rid of that scratchy unmusical sound although it works its way in if I don't pay attention. But I need to get to the point where I don't need to pay strict attention to play correctly. It should be second nature and I'm nowhere near that yet.

It's definitely a work in progress but at least it is in progress. I've worked with harmonies on my own and am getting a handle on how it works. I'm preparing to try Ragtime Annie although it's going to be pretty awful for a while. But I can learn it. Learning to vibrate my fingering hand while I hold a note, however, is just not happening at all. That's going to require work. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your head.

But I should scale back a little for now and work on those things I can do right now and get them to perform smoothly with one another. I'll conquer the rest later.