BS: Child abuse Pitcairn

Subject: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 08:48 AM

This island is populated by the descendants of The Bounty mutineers.
There are only about 300 of them.
Half of the male population are facing charges of statutory rape and sex offences against children.

The islanders say it is how things are in their culture. Women say it happened to them as children and that was fine.

The defence is going to be that British law has no jurisdiction on Pitcairn

What should happen here?

Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:13 AM

Child abuse is child abuse and despicable no matter where it occurs. Certain Pacific islands used to have a culture of headhunting and cannibalism - just because something is cultural doesn't mean that it's right. As I understand it, from what I read in the papers today, the culture on Pitcairn has a relaxed attitude to consensual sex with under-16s who have reached puberty, as do several cultures (wrongly IMO) - but several of the charges relate to underage rape, which is surely indefensible under any legal system.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:21 AM

It's easy to be very dogmatic about things, and feel we have got the laws about right where we live ourselves. But we should be (at the least) prepared to think about how they organise things in other cultures (including English culture not so long ago...plenty of English monarchs married girls under 16). And,let's face it, there is an enormous amount of under-16 sex carried out in England now, that doesn't result in court cases because nobody complains about it. And it might be an idea to hear a bit of the evidence that is brought out at the trial before jumping to any very definite conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:22 AM

I would ask.... much as I am against any kind of mistreatment of children (or adults) anywhere.....Just because British people populated an island many miles from Britain.....have the British Government any legal jurisdiction over it? How did it become British and under British rule?. I don't know the answer to that but perhaps someone can help explain please.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:24 AM

I think it's a helluva note, that's for sure -- the mutiny, the scrutiny... This is a tiny chunk of land with no roads, no sewage system, no airstrip. They ferry travers in through the surf by longboat. That is to say, they don't have a lot going for them on Pitcairn Island.


Chief among the defendants is Steven Christian, a direct descendant of Fletcher Christian, the worlds most renowned mutineer. Helluva note!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM

the effects of sexual activity from a young age are not always immediately understood by the person involved. people who start young sometimes slow down their development in other areas - emotionally. Some teenagers who are sexual partners of older partners are told that they are particularly mature, and ready, and of course like to believe it. They can grow up fundamentally seeing themselves as a sexual being, and playing sexual games without fully realising that its inappropriate. Some people can never move out of this and can go through a lifetime of seeing themselves as a sex object, and living accordingly.

How liberated is it to raise children from your teens? These laws are more about containing and protecting young people so they can mature, learn, develop education and skills and have more choices. yes, some people may not experience early sexual relationships as abusive. but when that's all they know, and there's not much else to compare it to, thats a sad reflection on the world they grow up in.

and that's just talking about the relationships that are not coerced or violent.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:59 AM

I've been hearing about this on BBC, and they say it has garnered a lot of international attention, but I have to admit not having heard a thing yet from the American media.
Anybody remember the Prime Directive?
Would that be appropriate here if the "victims" aren't the ones complaining? If, of course, they are, then I think No, but hey, it isn't MY ancestors' descendants. We were French back then.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:23 AM

The question is whether they are under British law or not. The local culture argument doesn't hold.

This has been tried often in Germany by defendents from immigrant minorities: In our culture it is right and not wrong when a brother kills his sister for having intercourse before marriage. That line of defense doesn't help. They should know the law. And the argument that some centuries ago people in what we now call Germany have done similar things also doesn't hold. Opinions change, culture does and laws.

150 years ago, when you killed your wife or her lover or both (but, of course, not when a wife killed a cheating husband, that was different) you got a suspended sentence in Germany or even less when you surprised them and acted in 'uncontrollable' rage. Today you'd get between 12 years and life for the same act. Morals and society have changed and people should get used to changes and they should know the laws that apply to them.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:12 PM

Wolfgang: I pretty much totally agree with you. Except legal opinion is very much divided as to which British laws(if any) actually do apply on Pitcairn. And it is an established thing in English law that"ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law". Which might be fine here in Stoke, England(I can go to the library and look up the law)...how does that work out on Pitcairn? So if even the lawyers don't know what the law is on Pitcairn, how are the inhabitants meant to find out?

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM

Rest assured that a lot of solicitors will make a lot of money trying to solve it!

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:18 PM

....and if we find life on Mars, 35 million miles away, we will be examining THEIR sexual practices and interfering...

Barring evidence of forcable rape, instead of just statutory rape, leave them alone! If forcable rape is found, throw the book at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 12:18 PM

Will the judge call him "Mr Christian"? Come to think of it, do they watch the movies on the island, do you suppose? Charles Jaughton was my favourite Bligh.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:03 PM

From BBC News website - "The first prosecution witness described how as an 11 or 12-year-old girl she was taunted on the island for being a "half-caste" and that she had been targeted and raped by Steve Christian (Pitcairn's mayor) on four occasions.

She said she was held down by the defendant and two other men in the first attack.

There was no one she or her parents could turn to on the island, she reportedly said.

Mr Christian pleaded not guilty to six charges of rape and four of indecent assault of four women, the AFP news agency quoted local media reports."



While I agree that this is not final and damning evidence, it's convinced me that that is not about a few yokels who can't tell 15 from 16 but about something altogether less innocuous that definitely does merit a criminal investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:19 PM

This is not unusual for a culture of people who have been invaded by another culture. The Pitcairns believe it is part of their culture but it was probably introduced by the mutineers. You don't have to look very far for examples of this. Look at what the govt. residential schools did to Natives in Canada. After generations of child abuse, it seemed 'normal' to the culture. It is not a part of their culture but was imposed on them by another culture long ago.

Who has jurisdiction? Doesn't really matter. What has happened there will need years of counselling and who will pay for that? The British?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:22 PM

Was there an indigenous Pitcairn people? I thought it was started from scratch by mutineers and the Polynesians who were put ashore with them. I may have gotten it confused though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:40 PM

G'day Keith,

Current indigenous population of Pitcairn is 47 - actual number of people there is probably double that. I understand there are six media people - do you have media hounds as 10$ of you community?

Here a coupe of Pitcairn links....

VOfficial Government Website - which is a bit boring - if you aren't into stamp collecting..

Paul Laurau's Pitcairn Website is well worth a visit if you want an insight into a small, rather remote community.

Ummmm..... More to say.... BUT.... think about it...

How would you sustain your sex life on Pitcairn?

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:42 PM

Dianavan: I have the same query as Amos. What was the Pitcairn culture the mutineers imposed themselves on? Were yhere any other inhabitants before them? I thought it was some guys off Bounty and some Tahitian women who set up shop there.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Chris Green
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 01:49 PM

Amos, greg - re 'native culture: The short answer is that there wasn't one because no-one lived there! There wasn't one. The 'native peoples' were people from other parts of Polynesia who came with the mutineers (from Tahiti, I believe). There's a potted history here

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 03:16 PM

wow..having read that, there's no easy answer for that place no matter what the outcome of the trials.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM

There's a difference between the situation where a country insists that certain agreed customs and rules should apply to anyone who comes to live there, regardless of their previous traditions, and where it seeks to impose its own ways on another country.

The former is basically straightforward in theory though tricky enough in practice. The latter is more complicated, because that kind of imposed change tends to backfire.

With Pitcairn Island you have something which falls in between, because, from all I've heard, it doesn't seem to be a viable "country", and is heavily dependent on New Zealand. (NB "British Law" in this context doesn't mean Britain, it means New Zealand, with a system of law derived from Britain.)

In a sense it's analogous to the pre-Civil war USA, where part of a country has a peculiar way of life which involves behaviour which is seen the rest of the country as evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: annamill
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 05:54 PM

Here's an interesting, if not factual, thought about this whole thing.

What if, after the mutineers mutinyed(sp), they went back to the islands and kidnapped some woman of all ages and took them to the island. Then rape and even child abuse might have started from the very beginning and what we're looking at, there, is a whole island of woman victims who think that this is it. The only way to live.. the way it was meant to be...

Cheez, talk about a star trek script! Should we tell them there IS another way, or, let it continue??

I vote to tell them and let them hand out their own punishments!

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:12 PM

The question about the apparent desire of some of the Pitcairn men to have sex with children, and whether this is cultrally acceptable if everyone involved agrees, does not matter here. Some Pitcairn women have said sex witgh 12 year olds is normal in their culture. However, the women involved in the allegations have made complaints to the police (even if some others haven't). So, there is a moral case to answer. Some children claim to have been raped by older males, in some cases older adult men. These are Pitcairn women who are making complaints.

The island appears to be some kind of dysfunctional family where some seem to decide to find their sexual relief in the rape of children.

I'd be disappointed if people were to argue that, in some way, this should be accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:30 PM

ideas about free sex on idyllic pacific islands go back to Margaret Mead. Her reputation as an anthropologist was founded on her book, Coming of Age in Samoa, published in 1928 and based largely on her interviews with two young Samoan women, Fa'apua'a Fa'amu and Fofoa. At the time of her visit to Samoa, Mead, a graduate student, was only 23 years old, scarcely older than the interviewed "girls" whom she called her "merry companions." Embarrassed and offended by Mead's constant questions about sex, a taboo topic in Samoa, the two decided to play on Mead what they thought would be a harmless joke. They had no inkling that Mead was an anthropologist who would go home and write a book about what they told her. To them she was just a young, naive, meddlesome tourist.

The two merry companions told Mead everything she wanted to hear. Yes, adolescents had complete sexual freedom, moving stress-free from childhood to adultery. Samoans were a happy, free-love people. Poor Mead bought it all. And not only did she accept the wild stories of the young women, but so too did the general public and the anthropological community. Mead's book was not only a best seller, fuelling a sexual rebellion among young people, but it was widely adopted as a university text in anthropology.

When in 1983 Australian anthropologist Derek Freeman exposed the story in Margaret Mead and Samoa: The Making and Unmaking of an Anthropological Myth, he was vilified by his colleagues and American Anthropological Association members formally denounced his book as "unscientific."

Unfortunately for Freeman's critics Fa'apua'a Fa'amu remained alive and in a 1991 interview the elderly grandmother confirmed everything that Freeman had said. "Samoan girls," she confessed, "are terrific liars when it comes to joking. But Margaret accepted our trumped-up stories as though they were true. Yes, we just fibbed and fibbed to her."

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 06:46 PM

An aside slightly off the point: If all the current residents of Pitcairn are descendents of the original mutineers and the Polynesians who joined them, wouldn't all the children be half-castes including Steve Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Grab
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM

Re guest who said that the purpose of setting the age of consent higher was to allow personal development - read those links about conditions on Pitcairn. There isn't any room for personal development. They're so damn busy keeping alive, there's no room for much else.

Remember that the concept of "teenage" is only 50 years old - before that, you were either a child and you were at school, or you were an adult and you worked. In the 19th century, the British armed forces would take soldiers or sailors as young as 12 and expect them to stand alongside the rest. Our modern concept of spending years on personal development is a creation of our richer society today which no longer needs every worker it can get. So it's hardly surprising that a society that's still in subsistence conditions hasn't moved on.

Having said that, the main issue is a girl who *is* saying she's been gang-raped. That's very serious, and really *does* need investigating. But the "statutory rape" thing can't work, simply bcos the precondition of British law, ie. a society resembling British society, doesn't exist here.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 09:19 PM

Very odd,as Sinsull says 'If all the current residents of Pitcairn are descendents of the original mutineers and the Polynesians who joined them' that means they are all related and therefore some clever leagle person might add incest to the charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 11:18 PM

Once again, my post caused some confusion. Yes, the people of the Pitcairns are a mix of Polynesians and mutineers. Rape and incest has probably been a part of the culture that was developed there by those people. Do you really think the Polynesian women had anything to say about it? I think not. Now, it just seems normal because it has been going on for generations. In that way it is very similar to the history of Indigenous people in Canada. It is not a part of their culture. It has been imposed on them. Rape and incest are an imposition.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Micca
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 06:39 AM

Without, in ANY way condoning Rape or forced, under age, sex or bullying of any kind it is FAR too easy for folks such as us, remote and from a different social structure, and our own custom laden background to condemn and judge the mores and behaviour of a very isolated community on an island in the Pacific, especially when we have only a very unclear and biased set of newspaper reports as our only source of information. Similarly, would the "dating and Courtship rituals" of our own young people stand up to such intense scrutiny? Teenage Pregnancy? underage binge drinking? one night stands after a drunken evening in a disco? maybe not, I think. Maybe we should "caste the beam from our eye before removing the mote from theirs"
I am reminded also of Shaws words
"Theodotus: Pardon him,he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), "Ceasar and Cleopatra"

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:51 AM

What Micca said. And also, along the lines of what Grab said. The concept of "teenager" is realtively new, but so is the concept of "childhood" - the Victorians were pretty much repsonsible for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

And why should the laws of England precisely be applied in Pitcairn? Why not the laws of Scotland, which are different? Life can be very complicated. Pitcairn people, by the way, are not just descended from British male mutineeres and Tahitian women. Tahitian men were involved as well, I believe. And probably some others as well. So quite who has imposed their culture on who is not entirely clear to me. An empty rock was occupied by some people, and they developed a culture. And presumably, as is the case everywhere, some people forced certain ideas on certain other people. Whether this was an imperial thing is a bit complex iin this very unusual case. It's more a "Lord of the Flies "situation, with the addition of breeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:44 AM

The issue is being confused because the charges are rape, forcible rape, not child abuse. It's a side issue (ducking and running) that the females being raped would be called women in some cultures and girls in others.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:48 AM

Good point, Mrrzy.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Bagpuss
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:18 AM

Mrrzy, I'm sure I read somewhere that some of the charges relate to abuse of girls as young as 5. I dont believe that ANY culture would accept that this was acceptable.

I also believe that because of the closeknit nature of the community most of those accusing the men have had to leave the island due to fear. Also that because of this a number of women dropped the charges, in order not to have to leave the community. This may be putting women under undue pressure to say that abuse that happened to them was consensual and because it is local custom it shouldnt be prosecuted. Remember that in Britain, children who have been abused often blame themselves and justify it by saying that it was they who initiated it, because that is what the abusers keep telling them, and because it is all they know they come to regard it as normal. That doesnt mean it doesnt have negative effects for them though. Also there are other women on the island who say it didn't happen to them and are shocked to hear that others say it is local tradition.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Bagpuss
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:34 AM

Here's a good article in The Guardian
, which highlights a lot of the issues and problems involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 12:41 PM

There were originally some Tahitian men with the Pitcairn settlers.
I could not understand why they decided to leave with Christian and co. They were needed because many of the crew stayed on Tahiti (and were later hanged).

There was a violet episode that seems to have been over access to the women. None of the polynesian men survived.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:03 PM

And why should the laws of England precisely be applied in Pitcairn? In fact it'd be the laws of New Zealand which are involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: MMario
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

If I remember correctly very few of the adult men who settled Pitcairn survived - but the polynesian men went first; then if I recall correctly the WOMEN did away with most of the remaining men - because of sexual abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Child abuse Pitcairn
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM

We're not just talking teenage girls here - some of the kids were 4 or 5 when adult males started abusing them. That's not acceptable in any society and should be stopped!
Mr Christian believes that because he is descended from Fletcher Christian and because he is the Mayor, he has the right to do what he likes to whoever he likes.
Actually, he looks very polynesian to me.
The second abuser was attached to the church and took advantage of very young kids in situations of trust.
Because they were stuck on a tiny island in the middle of nowhere, these girls couldn't do anything about it until they were old enough to escape - some to NZ, and eventually they complained.
Now it's time to sort it out and stop it from happening to any other children there!
Robyn