BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'

Subject: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:15 AM

I don't start political threads often (there are plenty to go around) but this is an interesting development. Lots of stories out there, here's an excerpt part way down in one from the San Francisco Chronicle:

It is unclear whether this is the first time a sizable group of soldiers in Iraq has refused to carry out orders, and the military is playing down the mutiny as an isolated incident. But the small rebellion suggests that problems linger with outfitting soldiers with adequate equipment in an increasingly dangerous country.

"I know soldiers are deeply concerned and have been deeply concerned about the equipment shortages," said Paul Rieckhoff, a veteran of the Iraq war and executive director of Operation Truth, a New York advocacy group working to draw attention to the needs of soldiers in Iraq and returning veterans.

"When you don't have proper equipment, you feel vulnerable," Rieckhoff said. "We haven't evolved quickly enough to meet the enemy threat, which is rocket-propelled grenades and roadside bombs."

The incident, which was first reported in the Clarion-Ledger in Jackson, Miss., where several of the soldiers live, apparently began after the company tried to deliver a shipment of fuel to a base but was turned away because the fuel was unusable, according to family members of some soldiers.

According to relatives and the Army officer, they returned to their home base in Tallil, where they were told to go to Taji to deliver the fuel. The group refused, citing the poor condition of their vehicles and the lack of an armed escort, family members said. American convoys, which are usually accompanied by armored cars and sometimes also by aircraft, are often attacked by insurgents.

"Yesterday, we refused to go on a convoy to Taji," Spc. Amber McClenny, 21, said in a message she left on the answering machine of her mother, Teresa Hill, in Dothan, Ala. "We had broken-down trucks, non-armored vehicles. We were carrying contaminated fuel."

The full story is here.

Okay, Dubya, just try to dismiss these soldiers as renegades and the conditions as atypical.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:16 PM

Maggie, It's going to be interesting to see how President bush spins this one! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:24 PM

There is obvously no respect for the lives of our soldiers. They are no more than mules in this context. They must risk their lives to pack contaminated fuel! How disgusting! Aren't the lives of our children more important than that!

d

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:25 PM

Nothing like hearing from the troops to get a better appreciation of what it's like on the ground.

I understand that it's also pretty hairy for the security consultants at the Baghdad airport who are on the ground in Iraq, watching out for "the enemy" while looking over their shoulders at their own supervisors ripping off the U.S. Air Force with phony billings through dummy corporations in the Cayman Islands (reference to Custer Security).

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

I wonder if this passaage from Bush in that last Presidential Debate might have been the last straw for these young soldiers:

I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before.

The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

It probably doesn't bother them at all that Halliburton employess are making 5-10 times as much for doing the same job?

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:39 PM

The thing that may get these people into serious trouble is the fact that they discussed it and were in unanimous agreement. My understanding of the UCMJ is that this is the nature and core of mutiny, the essence. They were right. But the Uniform Code of Military Justice doesn't take 'right' into account. Their best hope is political action. It was, on the surface, a stupid order.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:42 PM

A hundred dollars says that any action against this platoon will be delayed until after the election. Punishment now would be very unpopular, and this story has legs -- it is all over both the internet and MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:43 PM

It looks like the Political action is working. The Army is even denying that they had reason to punish them.

I guess after the election they may reconsider, if Bush wins...

Its a political war...

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 03:04 PM

Everything I've seen so far has been one-sided and, at best, second hand. I believe I shall defer comment until there is some first-person information.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Mudlark
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

Interesting, especially in view of a report I heard on NPR yesterday morning, saying that in 2 different surveys of the troops in Iraq, they are overwhelmingly (85%) for Bush to continue as their Commander in Chief. If that is true, either we are in total Spinland, or should all pull up a chair at The Mad Hatter's tea party.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

Another report says that 62% say that not enough troops were sent over there. The other guy is is so bad they want to vote for the guy that screwed the pooch?? How could that be??

Yeah Swiftboats!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:45 PM

read moore's book containing letter's from soldiers in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 05:12 PM

Yes, please. Read the words from the soldiers themselves. There were some bits of the book printed in one of the London newspapers last weekend. It is utterly fascinating reading.

Please, anyone who is pro-Bush, as I am continually trying to keep open minded to those who support him, I really suggest you also take the time (you don't have to buy the book, if you go to Michael Moore's Website,

More Soldier's Letters

you can read several letters there) to just read what these people are feeling. They're the ones on the line, just as these soldiers who are not willing to keep quiet when they feel they are being set up.

This is quite different than someone doing their duty in a time of war. Supposedly the war is over, and these are peace-keepers. But peacekeepers in Iraq better be adequately prepared for those who haven't heard this isn't a war.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 05:41 PM

How do they do those survey of what troops think about it all? In such a way that all those responding are absolutely certain there will be no way their superiors can know what they have said?

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:38 AM

The survey in question was conducted by Annenberg, which has an OK reputation. It's necessary to know who did the survey, who paid for it, and to know a little about the target group to assess a poll's validity. For example, I doubt that many of the troups in Iraq get the news from Reuters. They probably use the sources the brass make most convenient, thus slanting everything from the very begining. Polls that allow 'self selection' are a waste of ink because the undecided and the 'don't cares' are excluded. On line polls are too easy to sabotage. Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:22 PM

More than anything else, I think what put an end to the Vietnam War were those pictures and stories intrepid photojournalists filed during their stints in the field with the troops. When the folks back home got birdseye views of their bloody young soldier sons being evacuated by helicopter to Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals (MASH units), fighting and dying for ephemeral causes like 'democracy in foreign lands' didn't seem quite as noble or popular.

Which is why journalists don't accompany troops to the field any more....

A friend's nephew returned recently from a tour in Iraq. He was trained as a cook in the US Army, but when he got to Iraq, his company commander said, "Guess what? You're not a cook any more," and handed him a machine gun. He spent his tour carrying out "reconnaissance missions," which consisted of breaking down the doors of unsuspecting villagers in the middle of the night, looking for terrorists. He would've much preferred peeling potatoes.

He said the worst part was the children. He said there were thousands of orphans living in the streets. He and his buddies took to surrendering their MRE's (Meals Ready To Eat, the modern day 'C-ration') to these starving kids, but received orders to stop after several tragic incidents. Children who rushed a tank in hopes of getting something to eat were being run over by drivers who couldn't see them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM

Guest - You are right about the photojournalists but lets not forget the photos from the military personnel. Many rolls of film were smuggled out of Vietnam to be developed in the States. Unfortunately, many rolls were damaged by one means or another.

Military personnel have always taken photos - I still have my dad's World War II photos. We have seen the horrible prison torture photos of Iraqi prisoners so we know that it is possible to be informed by the soldiers themselves. Photojournalists may not be in the field but where are the photos that the military personnel usually send to us?

Do military personnel in Iraq have access to the internet? If so, I hope they will send us photos so that people in America learn how much their oil really costs.

d

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:01 PM

"It's necessary to know who did the survey, who paid for it, and to know a little about the target group to assess a poll's validity." And it's also important to be sure that the polling methods were not such as to allow the results to be distorted.

The circumstances of a military unit are different from that of civilian life, and the fact that the people carrying out the poll might have a deservedly good repuration, and had no intention of skewing the results wouldn't necessarily guarantee the accuracy of a poll.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:44 PM

I think we will have to wait until all the facts are out before we know what might happen to these soldiers. Personally, I think they are in deep do-do. To refuse an order in time of war is a pretty serious offence. The thing that makes it look worse for them is soldiers from their own unit carried out the mission without misshap.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: GUEST,jmc
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:52 PM

They should blindly follow all orders without questioning them. They aren't being paid to think or have an opinion. The majority of them are free of conscience or else they would not have marched in to murder innocents.
The minority who are capable of thought will be thrown out. The commanders can't be doing with displays of intelligence from sub ordinates. It might catch on and become a trend.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:35 PM

And did the soldiers from their same unit accomplish the task with the same piss-poor equipment and situation, or was it remedied before they proceeded? There is a lot we don't know about this, but asking them to drive an explosive payload with no protection will look to many as criminally neglegent of their superiors.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:35 PM

Too right, mate!! Soldiers seeking self preservation, and trying to think for themselves, is vaguely immoral, like women trying to avoid pregnancy or children not knowing to keep their mouths shut int he presence of their elders and betters!! Humph!!


Cranston Rigid-Dingle Beauregard
Conservative Majority Member

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:37 PM

I'll wait and see. Like artbrooks I'd like to hear from the troops themselves, not from the news. Like DougR, I think that they're in deep doo, but I'd like facts and not opinion.

Opinion seems to be what got us over there.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:41 PM

Doug the unit is now on maintenence stand down and according to the Army the soldiers are back at work. They must have had reason to be concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM

Doug does not care, it is not his kids who are in danger. Let's just hang them all then.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: mack/misophist
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:06 PM

The story given on this (free registration requited) site seems to include quotes.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 06:16 PM

According to the most recent release from the military command, this was one of the last units still waiting to get their trucks armored and not previously been assigned to run convoys into the roadside bomb danger zone. While neither blaming or excusing the individual soldiers involved, this seems like a failure of the leadership to me.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:47 PM

I'd rather assume that the top priority would be to try to minimise attention to this in the US media until after the election. It threatens to hole Bush's Yankee-Doodleism beneath the waterline.

That would imply a need for the army authorities to avoid treating it in a way that gets people focusing in it. And that, it appears, is the way they are treating it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:09 PM

Top headline in all of the on-line main-stream media, and in my local paper. "Minimize attention"? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:35 PM

I think Magrath is right on this one. If they were to charge those soldiers before the election... shitstorm!

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:56 PM

Well gol danged... Don't charge 'um wid nuthin'... Just stick 'um down in Guantanamo Bay and let 'um rot wid the res' of them terrorist... (spit...). This is America an' yer either with us or aginst us.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: US Soldiers: Common Sense vs 'Mutiny'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:39 PM

Oh but to have been the fly on the wall when Condoleeza and Dick and Dubya and Karl (Colin is nowhere to be seen--he actually KNOWS SOMETHING about military issues) discussed this one!

SRS