Origins: Three Score and Ten

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Bates from Birregurra
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:48 AM

Gerday from Birregurra

I know that line as "They learned to fight that bitter night and battle with the swell"

Cheers

Keith Maxwell

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

When I first heard the Waterson's sing this in the sixties the tune AND the words sent shivers up my back - it still does.
Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

I say again, it is only the tune that makes this one a favourite.
I like to hear it myself, but the lyrics....the lyrics....aaaargh!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: BB
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 02:23 PM

The version as it is usually sung is not particularly long, unless you're not into singing choruses which would make it seem long I suppose. The folk process has been at work on what was originally a poem, and made it into something that fishermen from all over love to sing, and which they can and do relate to.

Dead Horse, I doubt that you're a fisherman, and therefore might find that difficult to understand, and therefore to you it may seem no better than other broadsides - and indeed it may not be, but it obviously strikes a chord with many. I see no particular virtue in its age or that of other broadsides - in this situation, its age is irrelevant.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Ref Dead Horse's comments --- Steve P is quite right --- merely being old and well-loved does not make anything safe from criticism (I know this because people have been known to criticise me!) On the other hand, there are wellknown traditional ways of dealing with this situation. 1) Ignore it --- nobody who likes the song cares about what anyone else thinks. 2) Rewrite it so that you like it. Nobody else will, but you'll be happy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 05:24 AM

I have read that the event commemorated was in February not October, the change to improve the scan.
I find that I can make Feb. scan OK. Should I ?
Floating to the shore,
Keith.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:15 AM

Dead Horse has raised an interesting point. Old-established and well-loved songs are not, in fact, sacred, and to criticise one on fair and reasonable grounds is rather less unforgivable than blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Or is it? If we want to have a debate on this, I suggest we start another thread and leave this one in peace!

Steve

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:47 AM

Methinks You are a curmudgeonly old bastard you.

eric

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:42 AM

At the risk of being taken for a curmudgeonly old bastard, I will say that the lyrics of this song are no better than dozens of similar disaster/murder/sensation crap found on broadsides from even earlier.
The only saving grace of this tedious offering is the tune, which alone saves it from being lost in some dusty archive.
Methinks it is somewhat repetitious. Methinks it overdramatic. And methinks again that it doth go on far too long.
I shall now await the storm I have so deservedly unleashed upon myself, methinks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:23 AM

I have a version (the short version) recorded by the Watersons, from the 60s, (one of the "New Voices" set, at least I assume it was a set, recorded by the BBC) where they definitely sing "long to fight that bitter night".

The chorus on that version has "masts and spars and broken yards".

The other verse posted above I picked up in South London about 10 years ago in a slightly different form as

Methinks I hear the skipper say
'Tis time to shorten sail
The sky to all appearances
Heralds an approaching gale
Methinks I see them yet again
Though the midnight hour is past
Those little boats are battling
Against the icy blast.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:19 PM

"Masts and spars and broken spars" -- that line always makes me catch my breath, because of what it does not mention. When I said that to Don Duncan at one of his sings, he told me that the fishermen's wives each knitted special designs into their husbands' sweaters, which might identify them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM

I heard this at the George in Barnsley, Yorkshire - in 1968 or early 69 I think.

There are slight differences.

It was three score and ten boys and men were lost from Grimsby town
From Yarmouth down to Scarborough many hundred more were drowned
There were herring craft and trawlers and fishing smacks as well
Went out to fight that bitter night and battle with the swell.

Methinks I see a host of craft their sails set to the breeze
As down the Humber they do glide all bound for the Northern sea
Methinks I see on each small craft a crew with heart so brave
Going to earn their daily bread upon the restless wave

Methinks I see them yet again as they leave the land behind
Casting their nets into the sea the herring shoals to find
Methinks I see them yet again and all on deck all right
with sails close reefed and decks cleared up and sidelights burning bright

October's night brought such a sight as never seen before
As masts and spars and broken yards came floating to the shore
there was many a heart of sorrow there was many a heart so brave
there was many a hearty fisherman went to a watery grave

Anne

Subject: Lyr Add: A BALLAD IN MEMORY OF THE FISHERMEN....
From: BB
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:38 PM

From 'The Oxford Book of Local Verses', comes the following:

'A Ballad in Memory of the Fishermen from Hull and Grimsby who lost their lives in the Gale of 8 and 9 February 1889'
by W. Delf, a Grimsby fisherman.

Methinks I see some little crafts spreading their sails a-lee
As down the Humber they did glide bound in the Northern sea;
Methinks I see on each small craft a crew with hearts so brave,
Going to earn their daily bread upon the restless wave.

Methinks I see them as they left the land all far behind,
Casting the lead into the deep their fishing grounds to find;
methinks I see them on the deck working with a will,
To shoot their net into the deep either for good or ill.

Methinks I see them shoot their trawl upon the Thursday night,
And saw the watch upon the deck, and everything was right;
methinks I see them yet again when daylight did appear,
All hands working with a will getting off their gear.

Methinks I see the net on board and fish so fresh and gay,
And all were busily engaged clearing them away;
Methinks I see them put away into the ice below,
And then the sea began to rise, and the wind did stronger blow.

Methinks I heard the skipper say, 'My lads, we'll shorten sail,
As the sky to all appearance looks like an approaching gale.'
Methinks I see them yet again, and all on board was right,
With sails close reef'd, the deck cleared up, and sidelights burning bright.

Methinks I see them yet again, the midnight hour was passed [sic];
Their little craft was battling there with the fiery blast;
Methinks I heard the skipper say, 'Cheer up, my lads, be brave.
We'll trust in Him who rules the deep, in Him who alone can save.'

Methinks I read the thoughts of them who now are called away;
They were thinking of their loved ones dear many miles away;
Thinking of wife and children dear, and aged parents too,
Who no more will see them here again in this world below.

Great God, Thou sees each sorrowing heart, the widow in distress,
Thou knows the little children dear, who now are fatherless;
Comfort and cheer them here below, and lead them by Thy hand,
And at last may they meet with their loved ones dear in the promised land.

The notes say: 'Supplied by F.R. Whitmarsh of Grimsby from the original broadsheet as sold by the author.'

I have heard that the tune and the chorus, were written by Mike Waterson, but whether or not that's true, I have no means of knowing. If so, presumably he also did the adaptation of the words.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 03:13 AM

I am told that a copy of the original broadside is held at Grimsby Public Library. Perhaps someone from 'Ull can nip across and copy it for us.

I found this entry from the local newspaper some time ago, describing the storm (which was not in October):

As day after day passes and no tidings arrive of the missing Grimsby smacks, it is beginning to be realised that the gale of the 9th ult. will prove one of the most disastrous to the Grimsby fishing trade on record. Altogether nearly a dozen fishing vessels, carrying between 60 and 70 hands, are missing. Most of these vessels were only provisioned for eight or nine days, and many of them have been out over a month. Of the safety of seven of them all hope has now been abandoned. The vessels are:

Sea Searcher, trawl smack, owner Mr Joseph Ward; five hands.
John Wintringham, cod smack, master and owner Mr John Guitesen; eleven hands.
Eton, iron steam trawl smack, owner Mr H. Smethurst, Jun.; eight hands.
British Workman, cod smack, owner Mr Thomas Campbell; seven hands.
Sir Frederick Roberts, trawl smack, master and owner Mr W. Walker; five hands.
Kitten, trawl smack, owner James Meadows; five hands.
Harold, trawl smack, master and owner Mr Blakeney; five hands.

Portions of wreckage from the Kitten have been picked up at sea and brought into port, and the British Workman was seen to be reduced to a mere wreck by a heavy sea on the morning of the gale. Many of the men who have been lost leave wives and families, and an immense amount of distress will be caused amongst the fishing population. The total number of vessels lost will, it is feared, be near 15, and of lives between 70 and 80.

Hull Times, 2 March 1889.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 01:59 AM

Ahem...
Yeah, Boab - the version in the Digital Tradition has four verses.

Here's the additional verse:

Methinks I heard the captain say
"Me lads we'll shorten sail"
With the sky to all appearances
Looks like an approaching gale
Me thinks I see them yet again
Midnight hour is past
The little craft a-battling there
Against the icy blast

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:54 AM

I use the song as Joe sets it down fairly regularly, but I have seen somewhere [forgetful!] an additional third verse. Anybody come up with it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM

Me too - knock 'is bloody top hat off!

Most people do sing 'long to fight' but then most people are pillocks (IMHO). This is part of the oral tradition at work, I'm afraid. Most people have picked up this chorus from somebody else singing it.

I'm not sure about the reason for Yarmouth down to Scarborough, but the prevailing wind round here is between south and west, so Scarborough is usually downwind of Yarmouth. That's the first time that line has made sense to me - we usually think in terms of maps, but I'm sure they didn't think that way so much in C19.

Another way to sing this song is to leave the (second) verse till the last one, and you can imagine the ghosts of these small craft heading away from land. Spooky!

This song is still (surprisingly) popular among the fishing communities of the East Coast, and is often requested in Whitby in informal pub singsongs.

Which reminds me of a session that used to take place in Whitby Yacht Club bar, when we were asked by the Commodore why we sang so many songs about drowning sailors. Of course, we just took this as a challenge and stated keeping a running total on a board. I still remeber the glee of somebody coming up and saying 'Put this lad on - he knows 'The Loss of the Royal George' - there's nine hundred of 'em on that one!'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 04:38 PM

Perhaps I have a warped mind , but the 'Battle with the Swell ' line always makes me think of lads from the East End of London going up to Mayfair for a punchup with the upper class !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:56 PM

Yep Joe, agreed! Both sound better and make far more sense!
As a long-time Tall Ship sailor I never, ever longed for a storm, but I sure as hell defied a few! Makes me queasy to think about them! LOL! :0)
SJ :0)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:43 PM

Hi, Johnny - that goes to show you that maybe even Roy Palmer can be wrong. I'll agree that it doesn't make much sense.

The DT version has

They long defied that bitter night, And battled with the swell.

The Bok, Muir, & Trickett version has

They long did fight, that bitter night, their battle with the swell.

I like both of those better than the Palmer/Oxford version.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:33 PM

Isn't it 'They long defied that bitter night'? I doubt very much if they longed to fight it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Bassic
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:00 PM

Re the Up/Down debate, this was posted some time ago....

......................................................................

Subject: RE: A note to Three Score and Ten
From: Wolfgang Hell - PM
Date: 10 Mar 98 - 04:17 AM

here's a copy from an old thread relevant to this thread:

Subject: RE: Eyemouth disaster (Lyr. req.) From: Pete M Date: 29-Sep-97 - 05:52 AM

I can add nothing about the original request I'm afraid. but I can throw some light on the point about "Three score and ten" by Ferrera. Scarborough is indeed north of Yarmouth, but in interpreting traditional folk songs you need to know a bit about the millieu in whivch they were created, The prevailing winds, currents and tidal streams of the East coast of Britain mean that going North is the "Downhill" direction, usually running with the wind on the port quarter, whilst going South meant beating into the wind. Hence amongst the sea farers the reference was always to going "down to the North".

However, I recollect hearing up to Scarborough from the singing of the McKenna Brothers. I'll relisten tonight.
Wolfgang
......................................................................

This seems to have a certain logic to it imho.

G

Subject: ADD Version: Three Score and Ten
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 02:01 PM

Here's the version from Roy Palmer's Oxford Book of Sea Songs (1986). Note that this version has only three stanzas, and the one in the DT and Bok/Muir/Trickett has four. Palmer mentions an 8-stanza version. Can we find that one?

THREE SCORE AND TEN

CHORUS:
And it's three score and ten boys and men were lost from Grimsby town;
From Yarmouth down to Scarborough many hundreds more were drowned.
Our herring craft, our trawlers, our fishing smacks as well.
They longed to fight that bitter night to battle with the swell.

Methinks I see some little craft spreading their sails a-lee
As down the Humber they do glide all bound for the northern sea.
Methinks I see on each small craft a crew with hearts so brave
Going out to earn their daily bread upon the restless wave.

Methinks I see them yet again as they leave the land behind,
Casting their nets into the sea the fishing ground to find.
Methinks I see them yet again and all on board's all right,
With the sails flow free and the decks cleared up and the side-lights burning bright.

October's night was such a sight was never seen before:
There was masts, there was yards; broken spars came floating to our shore.
There was many a heart of sorrow, there was many hearts so brave;
There was many a hearty fisherlad did find a watery grave.

'In Memoriam of the poor Fishermen who lost their lives in the Dreadful Gale from Grimsby and Hull, Feb. 8 & 9, 1889' is the title of a broadside produced by a Grimsby fisherman, William Dell, to raise funds for the bereaved families. It eight lost vessels, the last two from Hull: Eton, John Wintringham Sea Searcher, Sir Fred. Roberts, British Workman, Kitten, Harold, Adventure and Olive Branch. In addition the names of some of the lost sailors are given, and there is a poem in eight stanzas. This passed into oral tradition, and in so doing lost six verses and acquired a new one (the last, in which an error of date occurs), together with a chorus and a tune. The oral version was noted from a master mariner, Mr J. Pearson of Filey, in 1957, and has subsequently, with some further small variations, become well known in folk-song clubs.

---

28 April 2011: See discussion below and note this much-disputed line in the chorus, as Palmer has it:
They longed to fight that bitter night to battle with the swell.
Seems to me that it must be something different, since the Palmer version doesn't quite make sense. I think I'd interpret it as "they long did fight."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 01:27 PM

There's no entry on this song in the Traditional Ballad Index. folktrax.org has an entry, but it's very brief. The only songbook source cited is Palmer's Oxford Book of Sea Songs. Here's the Folktrax entry:

THREE SCORE AND TEN - "boys & men were lost from Grimsby Town" "From Yarmouth down to Scarborough" - PALMER OBSS 1986 #138 p274 Noted by N A Hudleston, Wardill Yorks 1956 -- THE WATERSONS: TOPIC 12-TPS-166 1966 - KESTY rec by PK 1980: 240 - Tommy MORRISEY & chorus rec by John Howson, Cornwall on Radio 2: 10/11/95: CASS-1335

---

The version in the Digital Tradition is not attributed. It's almost the same lyrics that I found in the Turning Toward the Morning CD by Bok, Muir, and Trickett - but not exactly. I wonder where the DT version is from.

---

Roud Index Search

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Three Score and ten?
From: Abuwood
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:37 PM

"From Yarmouth round to Scarborough" is more geographically correct and how I have heard it sang in Whitby.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: English folk song?
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:37 AM

I think Dead Horse does one, Pavane. Why not PM him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: English folk song?
From: pavane
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 09:21 AM

I seem to remember a parody as well - but can't actually bring it to mind - was it Dustbin men?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: English folk song?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:03 AM

'Tis in the Digital Tradition here.

Subject: Lyr Req: English folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 05:55 AM

I remember a folk song from the late 60s and would like the complete lyrics,if anyone has them.
All I remember is,

Four score and ten,
boys and men,
were lost to Grimsby town.
From Yarmouth down to scarboro,
six hundred more were drowned.
In their fishing boats and trawlers......?