BS: Michael Moore on Question Time

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Maureen....I enjoyed that message, and Ill be thinking of what you said for a long time

Regarding Akhenaton,although your points about practicality are valid, don't we need dreamers and believers such as he to construct the stimulating environment you feel we require.

If any dreamers or idealists dare to peep out from under their stones on this forum, they are immediately crushed by the politically correct, or supporters of the status quo. BW Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: semi-submersible
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:14 AM

The USA does have a lot of great people, and a powerful culture as long as you can keep morale up. However, intelligent glimmers within clouds of addictive fug are unsustainable.

Intelligence, independence, and critical thinking require a stimulating environment (challenging yet secure) to develop. The overhead is too high for many families to provide this for their children in isolation. Enclaves of sanity could still be feasible except for the addictive factor I mentioned: the media-disseminated fug is heavily laced with potent subliminal appeals to survival imperatives. The Hummer ad is an example. For every woman who says, "Fagh!" after viewing it critically, there must be many who see the same ad without making the intellectual effort (if they were into effort, they wouldn't be watching the tube in the first place) but they will certainly pick up on the "protect my offspring" implication, and it may influence the car-buying ones to pick something heavy (with the usual costs, of course).

Seeing that the neocons control the money, the weapons, the media, and the state of the art in propaganda, how do you see us dreamers and believers shaping a better future?

What would an optimistic future look like, anyway? (I mean, one we can reach from where we are.)

Maureen

P.S. Akhenaton was a great patron of philosophy and the arts, but weren't there valid concerns among his contemporaries about getting people fed and keeping the barbarians from the unbuilt gates?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:41 AM

Hi McGrath,

I agree that the discourse or debate is polluted by some passions.
Moore is funny, though. But it's not about facts any more.
It's a clash of ideologies. In America, we're too close to the process of elections to take an objective point-of-view. It's more about how a candidate or a supporter appears on TV and it doesn't help that there is a highly virule anti-intellectual strain rampant in our country that is being spread by a partisan pseudo-religious faction who tend to vote Republican. To hear them talk,
God don't wantcha' to read or think too much.

There is another virus, the largest one being warmongering which is somehow connected to owning guns. It's funny how this heavy-handed approach to problem solving is revisited time and again. Insanity: Doing something over and over again that doesn't work.

I am optimistic about our country, though. We've got quite a few sane, intelligent and sensible people who sometimes are allowed to peek through the clouds of media spin and shine some light on important issues.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:51 AM

P Piper...Im glad you've discovered the story of my historical hero.

The worlds first free thinker!!....But the bastards got him in the end

Keep digging, maybe his story will change your life a little ,as it did mine.....Best wishes   Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

Peg... Im sorry I was confused over your nationality,but I thought I remembered reading of a Cornish childhood?Im sorry if I was mistaken.

On the subject of bigotry, someone much wiser than me said on another thread,that there is bigotry of one kind or another in each and every one of us, I can assure you I have no bigotry towards women and Im sure calling someone a feminist could not be construed as such.

Under the circumstances,and as a gesture of goodwill,Im prepared to alter the phrase to "embittered American feminist"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

akanaton is an interesting choice of handle check out the story of the real Akanaton.
Harvey has it right; the neocon disciples of the prophet Straus have a not very well hidden agenda to reverse all this untidy liberalism and political pragmatism to unite the American people in a simplistic fear and hatred of mythical and (for now) external threat.
Rumsfeld did this with the Russians in Reagon's time and now it's Al qaeda, which the Weasel worded Machiavellian hypocrite help set up.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:00 AM

Embittered English feminist?

If you're referring to me, I'm an American.

And that is also an extremely bigoted statement, akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: shepherdlass
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:33 AM

I was equally depressed by the standard of debate. Felt particularly sad that one woman was voting for Bush because she believes he's in favour of the stem cell research which would help her spinal injury. That's the effect of spin on real debate, I suppose, but it was a very cruel illustration of it.

However, I think Moore was deliberately subdued - he took a lot of stick last time round for supporting Nader and being perceived as one of those who let Bush in - so this time maybe caution was the watchword. The few points he did make (eg how the Brits were kicked out of their empire any number of ways bar another foreign power invading the country in order to liberate the people - which was clearly not democratic!) were pretty good but seemed to go completely over the heads of that Jerry Springer audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:18 PM

The programme is still there to see, Frank, on the link I gave early in the thread, and it'll be there till Thursday. I don't mean there should be any obligation to see it, but I point that out just in case that "I didn't see the program" implied that you wished you had. (You didn't miss much. But often enough Question Time is pretty good.)

The impression I get, possibly unjustly, is that the US political scene is more or less mutual "diatribe for political purposes" - Michael Moore is a lot funnier then the people he's up against, and I find him very likeable, and he does an enormous amount to stop anti-Bushite feelings degenerate into anti-American prejudice, but he's basically playing the same kind of game.

There's the old saying "Bad money drives out good", and I suppose that's what's happening. Our tabloids over here are pretty advanced practitioners of this kind of stuff, and no doubt other aspects of our public life will catch up before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:17 PM

Harvey...I agree with your assessment.

And a climate of ignorance helps the fear to spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:12 PM

Peg ..The tone was not meant to be anti American, but anti ignorance.
Many Americans have posted to agree the level of public debate in the US is deplorable and getting worse.
Im more inclined to take their word than that of an embittered English feminist..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM

Thanks Frank...Its clear from the posts of yourself and other US Mudcatters, that reason and intelligence are still alive and well .

Maybe we could form a World Govt.

But who for president??

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:01 PM

dianavan--I was agreeing with you.

akenaton--This thread opens with a very anti-American tone to it--yours. The "oriental" comment just pushes it over the edge.Therefore I think referring to you as a bigot is justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: harvey andrews
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:53 PM

The word is "FEAR". Generate it, perptuate it and power is yours. Hitler knew this.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:46 PM

Aketon,

I didn't see the program. I will say this. Dialogue of any consequence is now
not a part of American discourse. The reason for this is that we are in the process of being taken over by Republican fascists. The dialogue has been reduced to diatribe for political purposes. I don't think it's ever been this extreme before when the American public can't talk to each other if they are on a different political side.

My experience with trying to talk to Republicans is that the discourse is never either taken seriously or so seriously that it turns into a shouting match.

What we are going through now is a clash of cultural values. One one hand, the Republican model of dictatorial and patriarchal iron-handed pronouncements and on the other side, a denial of basic nurturing and compassionate ideas sacrificed to policies, facts and wonks.

The two sides are unable to communicate with each other because of the extremity and polarity of our country based on the aforementioned.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,Yorick
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:03 PM

"American Muslim Group Endorses Bush"
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/48/story_4878_1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:56 PM

Amos is right, it's hardly just older people who are watching Fox. People like Ann Coulter are a powerful draw for some members of younger generations. But the other major networks are just as biased in their own ways, and just as bad about censoring what we see and hear. Even the Public Broadcasting people censor. People here don't necessarily prefer this state of affairs, it's just that most people don't have any other frame of reference, so they don't realize the extent to which what we are allowed to see and hear in this county is controlled by a powerful few.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:40 PM

Peg , regardless of whether the woman had white, yellow or green skin,
she was talking cliched rubbish, as were most of the men on the panel.

You folks sure like to throw around words like racist and bigot..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:32 PM

DV:

Their age is not really a factor. My parents both watched CBS news into their late 70's. But they would not have watched Fox or evangelism, except to survey the "vaste wasteland".

It is a matter of cultural predilection, and in a country as large and wide as thi9s one that can be anything at all.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:50 PM

Carol C. - I do visit the U.S. When I'm at my mom's, the t.v. is blaring with FOX news. At my aunt's house it is evangelism. They are old and I thought that only the old folks were tuned in to that garbage. Are there no alternatives or is that the only kind of programming that the people want? Surely there are other people who prefer an informative and balanced perspective on world events.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:25 PM

We watch a fair amount of BBC news too, McGrath. You in the UK get coverage of quite a few stories that would never get covered here in the US as well. JtS and I frequently see a news story on the CBC or BBC, and we look at each other with a wry grin and say "they'll never cover that story here". (And this is because such stories don't fit the US propaganda machine.)

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:11 PM

We have to get along without luxuries like that...have to make do with wall to wall Beckhams instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:07 PM

Hell, the people who call themselves "journalists" on the major networks and cable networks will devote hours of air time just to discussion of what what's-his-name Peterson was wearing in the frigging courtroom, while giving far more weighty matters, such as Karl Rove's testimony before a grand jury no air time whatever.

JtS and I watch a lot of CBC news, and quite a few stories that we see covered on the CBC, don't get reported here at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:58 PM

No, dianavan. What bugs me is the 24 hour a day coverage the popular media in the US is giving to the Lacy Peterson case, while so many far more important news stories get no coverage at all. My Lacy Peterson point goes directly to my point about our media here serving the purpose of distracting us from the real issues with massive overcoverage and sensationalism of stories like the Lacy Peterson case. And before that, Martha Stewart. And before that, OJ Simposn, and Jonbennet Ramsey. It's all slight of hand. Distract us with bullshit with one hand, while they destroy everything worth living for with the other.

You ought to come back to the US for a while so you can feel for yourself how bad things have gotten here.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:24 PM

CarolC - Please start a new thread about Lacy Peterson. I know a bit about that case but have no idea if the husband was found guilty. Obviously, there is something about it that bugs you. Fill us in.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:05 PM

You forgot one, JtS:

Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson Lacy Peterson

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:01 PM

Sure! Because Mom will drive that muvverfugger right up over the soccer field and swoop down on those little bastids and whop their butt from the driver's seat. Who'd want to mess with a kid whose Mom was likely to do that? No bully in their right mind would go up a Huimmer with anything less than an RPG, or some IED. But, give 'em some time and they'll learn about vodka bottles 1/4 filled with petrol, and whooo, boy, Mom will need a Bradley!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:32 PM

Whether the experiment was real or not, Carol's anology about TV and the Internet is kind of apt. If you look at the messages at the heart of modern Television. It goes something like that.

Here is some sex... be a consumer
Here is some santiized news ... corporations are good.
Here is an opinion, here is how to talk to Liberals
Here is a sordid story about the murder of children.... consume consume consume.

There is an ad on US television right now that suggests that if Mom drives a Hummer II her child won't be beaten up at school. That's how ridiculous things are getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:13 PM

Peg - No offence meant on my part. What you had to say was correct. Whether it is politically correct or just correct is a moot point.

The woman in question should have been given more respect. My reply was to try to clarify why referring to her (or anyone else) as Asian or Oriental is racist. In the context of the program, it also seems to be sexist; ie: she doesn't matter except to identify her as a woman of colour.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:22 PM

*sigh* I find it really strange that someone being called on their racist language (but why should that surprise anyone in a thread like this, whose sole purpose is Yank-baiting?) should automatically assume I am just being "politically correct."

Nope, just trying to be correct, is all. The other panelists seemed to deserve being referred to by name, whereas the lady in questions was just some woman with yellow skin. Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:49 AM

Actually I've heard that the frogs thing doesn't work. When it gets uncomfortably hot, they jump out. I haven't tried it myself and I don't plan to.

But people aren't always as sensible as frogs.

Note thing on TV marked "Power". Computers have the same thing I suppose that's a way of saying you can always turn stuff off if you don't like it. Trouble is, that doesn't do anything to stop it screwing up people who don't push the button, and the effect it has on life in general. What other people do of their own volition can effect us all.

Mind these days, it isn't so much the on off switch on the set that matters, it's the change channels switch in the remote.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:57 PM

Note thing on TV marked "Power"

That's true. But unfortunately, the way it seems to work is a bit like that experiment they did on frogs a while back. They put some frogs in a pot of room temperature water and very, very gradually heated the water. They found that if they increased the temperature slowly enough, the frogs wouldn't notice the temperature change, and they would stay in the water and not jump out until they were too cooked to do anything about it.

That's what the US media is doing to people's brains. And most people don't notice until they've lot too many IQ points to comprehend what's been done to them.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 11:52 PM

If you know where the lady is from, you can refer to her as the Columbian or the South American. If you don't know where she is from you refer to her as the woman or the woman in the red dress or ....

When you refer to the woman as Asian or Oriental - you are identifying her on the basis of physical characteristics which probably includes skin colour.

There are alot of people of colour in this world. To guess where they are from, based on the color of their skin is racist.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,US
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM

Note thing on TV marked "Power". Computers have the same thing.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:27 PM

For some strange reason,in current UK usage, "Asian" seems to be limited to referring to people with origins in the Indian Sub-continent - India, Pakistan, Bangla Desh and Ceylon. "Oriental" as an adective would mean Chinese and Japanese. People from other parts of Asia would be unlikely to be described as "Asian" - Turks or Arabs, for example.

There doesn't seem to be any logic to these things. For example "Orientals" sounds offensive somehow in a way that "Asians" does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:58 PM

Peg's comment is a bit difficult to follow: if nobody uses the term "oriental" any more, what is the correct term, nowadays? Are you suggesting that "of Asian descent" is the right way to refer to her? that might be OK in America, but it would not be normal usage in that context in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

Here in the US, the dumbing down of the media (and the population) serves several purposes. If you've read Orwell's 1984, you can see most of them represented there. Things like distracting the people from the real issues, entertaining them with mindless garbage to keep them happy and dumb so they won't notice all of the bad things the government has in mind for them, using the media as a propaganda tool instead of a way to educate and enlighten. And of course, it's a great recruitment tool for the military industrial complex. I'm guessing maybe the dumbing down of the media (and the population) could serve the same purposes in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM

Its strange, Akenaton, US "conservatism" has created the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:06 PM

Yes Carol ...Im afraid Greg is correct. The British media is struggling valiantly to catch up with the US in plumbing new depths.

It seems to be a mixture of intellectual laziness and apathy on the part of the public, who have swallowed a lethal cocktail of "reality" shows,chat shows,all manner of rubbish hyped to seem exciting.

Our welfare system has in the end ,pruduced a generation of whining, lazy, materialistic morons,people who have been conditioned to accept the lowest of standards and never think or question.
Another example of socialism as a tool of the right..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:32 PM

There were two obvious problems with the show, the first being that each person had their own agenda and their own talking points which they talked about instead of answering the questions.
Putting Michael Moore next to David Frum was provocative.

The second is that the audience seemed to be cherrypicked to represent the most strident and least civilized Americans.

A similar show on Canadian TV a few days before was much more civilized.

Tne Columbian lady, I thought was making some good points about the electoral process and how the US has been perceived and perceived its self since the Florida debacle.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 05:02 PM

I think it may be more important to ponder on why such a large proportion of your population have been kept in political ignorance

That one's easy to answer. It makes the majority of us easier to control. However, if you find that the media is being dumbed down in the UK, as Greg Stephens has suggested is happening, you might have reason to be concerned about why that would be happening, and whether or not you want to get to the point where we in the US are today (and how you can prevent it if it is happening).

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 04:09 PM

No need to "watch the programme again" to check that kind of thing - it's all there on the BBC site

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:36 PM

Maybe thats what America is all about these days. The politically correct vs. the ignorant. I think that just about says it all.

Where does substance come in?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM

Peg... Im sorry if your PC sensibilities have been injured, and McGrath is quite right, I should have taken time to watch the programme again.
However, at the time I could not recall the womans name ,or why she was a panellist, as her comments like the rest of the panel consisted of cliche ridden rubbish.   But now that you've drawn attention to my faux pas Im sure the whole direction of this thread will change.

I think it may be more important to ponder on why such a large proportion of your population have been kept in political ignorance,rather than try to score pedantic points....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:57 PM

The "oriental-looking" lady was called Lida Rodriqueze-Taseff, and she was born in Colombia. And all details of panel members are on that BBC website to which I gave a link. Doesn't take very long to get that sort of thing right.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:45 PM

I thought it was most interesting, a well-modulated exchange of arguments and questions.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 02:09 PM

I can't really take someone's criticism of American political discourse seriously when they refer to someone as "an oriental-looking lady." What is this, 1940? No one uses this term anymore, it is considered derogatory to refer to those of Asian descent as "oriental."

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:07 PM

I think it was unwise of Michael Moore to do the show at all, though. He hardly needs either the money or the publicity and the risks of saying or doing something that could be exploited against the Democrats were very high. The only way of avoiding that was to do and say as near nothing as he could manage, which seems to be what he tried.   HA HA HA HA Moore saying nothing.... what a joke

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:47 AM

We do have shows like this, and some are a mess like that show was, and some are much better. It really depends on how they're set up. I got the impression that the Question Time people were encouraging the "wild west" atmosphere though. At one point, the sound engineers turned down Michael Moore's microphone while he was still talking, and they turned the microphones up on the audience just so we could hear the audience's shouting and jeering instead of hearing what Michael Moore had to say.

In a show like that, the tone is usually set by the makers of the show. That's why Jerry Springer's shows are the way they are, and why some shows are better than that.

But it's true that there certainly are plenty of people here in the US who behave the way that panel and audience did.

The other thing I would point out is that David Frum is not an "American". He's a Canadian who likes to pose as an "ugly American". (He's one of the most strident of neocons, and a speechwriter for the Bush administration. It was Frum who wrote the "axis of evil" speech.)

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:02 AM

"Didn't see it." Try that link I gave at the top of this thread if you wish to do so. It'll be there till Thirsday. (Then that link woudl gve you teh noirmal domestic version.

I thought David Dimbleby felt inhibited, as a kind of guest, bout trying to control things, and hold people to the question the way he very effectively does at home.

Don't Americans have this kind of programme where the idea is for actual dicussion? I'd have thought in a country with a tradition of town meetings it would be second nature. There are similar programmes in some other countries, and they don't seem to have this problem. Andthere have been plenty of guest appearances by Americans on Question Time where they had no pribem at all in sticking pretty well to the subject. I wondered if it was that the ground rules hadn't been properly explained.

Perhaps some other part of the USA might have worked better. Florida, I gather, is a bit strange in sme ways...