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BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Nerd Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:12 PM I'm especially sad that you can't talk about your disappointment with the other rabbis, Sol. You've always got Mudcat! I too feel like George Bush is tapdancing on my nads. Sigh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM Well, It is the day after and I, along with my wife and both her parents all voted for Kerry. After staying up until 1 AM, I got up this morning to find out that Bush got 4 more years. The Rabbis in my community are saying that Gods will was done. Also, the fact that the overriding issue was "morality and family values" proves this point. I did not dare tell them how I voted or else they would run me out of town. SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:09 AM National exit polling shows that the Jewish vote went 76% to Kerry and 24% to Bush. Kerry / Bush Jewish vote exit poll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: CarolC Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:41 AM Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention Rabbi Sol in my list of people who endorse Kerry. You're right. I am in good company. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: CarolC Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:40 AM Yes, Larry K. I am the only person in the world besides Yassir Arafat, Ossama Bin Laden, and the Anti semetic ruler of Malaysia who endorses Kerry. Your powers of observation take my breath away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 02 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM Guest Larry K: Always refreshing to read about someone's priorities as to which nation is the most important to him/her. So--l;et me see if I have this right--if you are French, Italian, Turkish, German, and other non participants in this fiasco you vote Kerry?---and if you are Micronesia, Japan, Cameroon, and other such nations (OH---yes UK) that are part of the Coaliton of the Committed (or is it the Coaliation of those who should be committed) you vote W. Other national priorities first---right? NY Gov. (Ex) Mario Cuomo was interviewed today and his point was that Bush speaks like a bully, acts like a bully, and wants to act the tough cowboy---in our complex society the nuance and intellect that Kerry provides is the more viable option. Interestingly enough you might like to check a website from the Museum of the Moving Image--there you can see political ads all the way back to 1950. A 20 second ad for Eisenhower (GOP) in 1952--title: The Housewife 20 seconds Dialogue:(paraphrase) We need a President that is involved with other nations and is respected by them. We need friends around the globe---that is why I Like Ike. Kerry should have shown that GOP ad---how the times have changed for the Grand Old Party. Finally, I ask---you have spoken with all the people you mention that support Kerry? I am impressed---such close contact with tyrants. That is one of the best post Halloween scares yet---give my best to Yassah Yassir. Looks like you never caught the name of the Malaysian at the cocktail party of creepy demagogues. Bill Hahn Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:41 PM Orthodox Rabbis in the USA endorse Bush. Head orthodox rabbi in Israel endorses Bush People in Israel support Bush 55% to 17% Ed Koch (former NYC mayor & lifelong democrat) support Bush Yassir Arafat endorses Kerry Ossama Bin Laden endorses Kerry Anti semetic ruler of Malaysia endorses Kerry Carol C. endorses Kerry (well as least she has good company) My wife is a lifelong democrat who has never voted republican in her life. This week she has finally made up her mind and decided to vote for Bush because of his support for Israel. A very tough decision for her. A Bush win will be a great birthday gift. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Amos Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM A French pastry shop, Martin. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Once Famous Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM Brucie Perhaps. what exactly is a patiserrie(sp)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Nerd Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM DtG: The more accurate figure is about 6 million Jews in the US. Yes, more than in Israel. (We have more Irish people than Ireland too, and Mexico has far more hispanics than Spain!) This Jewish figure may work out to less than 2.5% because that number was the older figure, and may have changed as the general population went up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: CarolC Date: 02 Nov 04 - 11:11 AM It all boils down to the electoral college, DtG. Political strategists are more concerned with the micro-elections (individual states) than they are with the macro-election (the popular vote in the country as a whole). Because it's the cumulative number of micro-elections a candidate for president wins that will determine the outcome. If there are significant numbers of a particular group that can be appealed to as a group (for instance, people of Cuban descent in a state like Florida) within any given micro-election, political strategists might pay close attention to that group. However, as we see in this thread, it isn't always easy to appeal to Jews as a group, because they are no more homogeneous in their opinions than any of the other religions in the US, with the possible exception of fundamentalist Christians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Nov 04 - 04:39 AM Whoops! My apologies (How do you do an embasased looking smiley?) - Usual case of decimal point in the wrong place! It should of course be 2.0 billion christians and 1.4 billion moslems which makes the world population of people of the jewish faith being outnumbered by a mere 250 to one rather than 2500 to one! I did give the right figures in a previous thread though - guess I should have looked that one up rather than relying on the old brain cells. I must say I am very surprised at the 2.5% figure, Nerd. The US population is currently 295 million. 2.5% of that is well over 7 million - Which means that over half of the worlds population of jews is in the US - More than there is in Israel! Even so Not that any of this realy means anything - Apart from that I am more of a nerd than Nerd:-) Ah well, thanks for pointing out the error of my ways anyway. The principle is still the same though - How come 11% of 2.5% of the population (0.275%) warrants such deliberation from the polititians though? Mind you - seeing how close the pollsters have put it every little helps I guess! Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:41 PM Keresem a magyarorszagi Orthodox rabbit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bobert Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM Yo be da man, Amos... No right thinkin' feller would admit to that 'cept you... ...ahhhh, now we're gonna have to ask you a few questions about the usual, you know like lingering tiolet training issues and polymorphors perverse guilt and the like... Nuthin' too tough, mind you... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Peace Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM Martin, None of your favourite delis are in Canada? Eat once at Ben's and you will never be able to say that again. (Ben's is in Montreal, home of the steamie.) They make the best smoked meat sandwich in NORTH AMERICA. Who wins the election is one thing, but that remark--it's a matter of honour! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:17 PM it only makes sense in Hungarian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Cool Beans Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM I dunno. To me it sounds rather unorthodox. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:19 PM I mean this with complete respect, but I have to reveal to you that every time I read the title of this thread on the list I misread it to say that orthodox rabbits are endorsing bush, and it seems perfectly natural. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:12 PM the only thanks I need is for reasonable people to cherish their faith as best they can, without imposing it, or its consequences, on others... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:58 PM Thank-you, Bill D! d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:38 PM there is a thread running that asks whether religion is a 'mental illness', and of course, the answer to THAT, asked that way.. is no, but there are sure some strange aberrations in religious behavior! Some Muslims defend beheading and terrorism in the name of Allah, and some Christains still believe in "kill a Commie for Christ" and some Jews believe ANYTHING done in the name of Israel is ok, and Irish Catholics and Protestants preach hate based on which church they see you leaving...and all the other asinine bits of behavior the human beings justify by refering to principles that are mostly just accidents of cultural development....and the moderates in all of those groups claim that they are right, just because they are not extreme. It is a Tower of Babel, indeed...if there IS any truth at the base of any of it, it gets trampled in the rush to assert all the nonsense that passes for 'righteousness'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM But not in Canada |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:25 PM Rabbi Sol - My apologies if I offended you. My question about another mudcat name was an honest question. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:05 PM In fact, some of my favorite delis are in Florida. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Nerd Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM Ooh, i cross posted with BillD. Turns out Dave The Gnome's stats were worse than I had noticed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Nerd Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM Rabbi Sol, I didn't see a personal attack, but there was definitely a "whisper campaign" implicit in the question about another Mudcat Name :-) Dave the Gnome, your figures are highly flawed because the US has a MUCH greater concentration of Jews than the world at large; China, for example, has virtually no Jews today (although Kaifeng once had a significant Jewish community), India has almost no Jews, and much of Europe was depopulated of Jews by the Holocaust. By contrast, these countries have many Christians and Moslems. So in fact there are far more Jews in the US than would be expected given the Global percentages of the three religions you picked to reference. So, your idea that the entire Jewish Faith is outnumbered 2400 to one is WAY off. In fact, 2.5 percent of the US population is Jewish, so we are outnumbered by less than 50 to one. Moreover, Jews reliably turn out to vote, so Jews are estimated to comprise about 4 percent of the electorate; we are outnumbered 25 to one among voters, two orders of magnitude off your estimate! This is somewhat offset by your other error, assuming that 50% of those Jews are Orthodox. In fact, only about 11% are Orthodox. Still, many non-Orthodox Jews still "look up to" their Orthodox brethren as being more Jewish or "better Jews." So the opinions of Orthodox Rabbis may carry some weight among non-Orthodox Jews. If these endorsements were made from the pulpit, then only those orthodox Jews in those synagogues will have been directly affected. Not all of the members of their congregations will fall into line, as we Jews love to argue (an old joke in our community states that where you have four Jews you have five opinions). Looking, for example, at the Jewish Press site, you find that the paper did indeed endorse Bush, but a lot of the readers wrote in to say "shame on you." (A lot also wrote in to agree). So let's assume 15% of Jews in the US might be swayed by the Orthodox Rabbis; a large proportion of the Orthodox Jews and a smaller proportion of other Jews. This is, I think, a generous assumption. There are 6 million Jews or thereabouts in the US, so 15 percent is 900,000 Jews that this might affect. How many of them vote? Well, given that some are Children, etc., let's say about half of them will vote or very roughly half a million votes. Forecasters expect about 110-120 Million people to vote in this election, so we are talking about less than a half percent, but much more than Dave's 0.02 percent. Again these are very rough figures: maybe only 25% of Jews will vote; not knowing the population figures, I don't know how many are adults, how many are registered, and how many bother to vote. Certainly in most communities fewer than half of all people vote (in fact only about half of registered voters voted in 2000!) Still, we are in the realm of tenths of a percent, not hundredths. Can a half percent matter? Probably not. But given that as Rabbi Sol says, there are many in Florida, it might have an effect there. That is the only battleground state with a significantly higher than average proportion of Jews. (PA has 2.7% as opposed to 2.5% nationally). Florida has about twice the percentage of Jews as the national average, so conceivably this might affect close to 1% of votes, which could conceivably affect the election's outcome. But it is an outside chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM Rabbi Sol, The impression that I have is that when you refer to the "Orthodox community," you are actually refering to the Chassidic, ultra-Orthodox community, which, by the numbers, is a relatively small segment of the overall Jewish community in America. A segment that is certainly not representative of the larger community on most issues. Here are links to some editorials endorsing Kerry in mainstream Jewish newspapers. You'll note that of the three I'm listing here, two come from Jewish newspapers in Republican states, while the third is from a swing state. In all cases, they are much more reflective of the overall Jewish community than the right wing papers you read in your community. Atlanta Jewish Times Jewish News of Greater Phoenix Detroit Jewish News |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bill D Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:42 PM am I the only one who noted that Dave the Gnome has a world population approaching 35 BILLION back up there?.... as to the subject, I am struck that ANY religious leader would seek to impose a voting obligation on his flock based on an 'opinion' that one candidate is a bit better for them than another. He doesn't claim that Kerry is against Israel, or that Bush loves the Jewsih people, only that Bush is a 'better' friend, and that his conclusion is that anyone voting for a 'lesser friend' will have "the blood of fellow Jews" on his hands"...wow! such logic! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM I'm glad you started the thread too Rabbi. I admire your calm and reason when people disagree with you. I am happy that you and I agree about Kerry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM Oddly enough, the same JEwish Press issue which carries the arguments for supporting Bush is also open-minded enough to carry this Op Ed piece for Kerry which is equally persuasive, IMHO. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM For those who are depressed, I am a member of the Reformed Jewish community, which is by far a more liberal and activist denomination of Judaism in America. This group is much more split on the two candidates and is by far represents a greater percentage of the Jewish vote in America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:17 PM Sol: You are a brave man and I promise you you will not be struck down for your choice. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: CarolC Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:15 PM I'm glad you started this thread, Rabbi-Sol, if for no other reason than because I like to see some transparency in the political doings of organized religious entities. I also hope you don't get struck by any thunderbolts from heaven tomorrow ;-) Happy voting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Cool Beans Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM Thank you, Rabbi Sol, for shedding light here. My wife and daughters are engaged in the Kerry campaign (I work for a newspaper; participation in campaigns is strongly discouraged). My wife has been going door-to-door in Oak Park, Michigan, which has a sizeable Orthodox community, and has been discouraged by the amount of pro-Bush sentiment, all the harder to understand because we are Jewish ourselves. Cam Kerry, John Kerry's Jewish brother, has put out an excellent statement about John Kerry's commitment to Israel, and there a Web site, www.jewsforkerry.com that provides further illumination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:50 PM Okay Folks. Let us set the record straight. a) I do not have any other name on Mudcat. b) I live in the Orthodox community of Monsey, N.Y.. In addition I have relatives in Brooklyn, NY, Miami Beach, Fla., Lakewood,N.J. and Nassau County, Long Island, with whom I speak on a daily basis. Being part of the Orthodox community and not just an outsider looking in, I have my finger on the pulse and know exactly what is going on. My relatives fill me in as to what is going on in their Orthodox communities as well. Not everything that goes on here is reported in the press, especially Sabbath morning sermons, due to the fact that recording devices are prohibited on the Sabbath. A sermon that is given at 10 AM in the morning can not be reported until about 7 PM, (one hour after sundown) at the conclusion of the Sabbath. Only then are we allowed to use telephones and computers. By that time the major media networks are no longer interested because it is old news. c) Among the major publications that have endorsed Bush for re-election are, The Jewish Press, The Monsey Advocate, and The Jewish Voice & Opinion (published in Teaneck, N.J.). They give the Orthodox point of view. If you go to www.thejewishpress.com you can read the front page article by Dennis Praeger which clearly articulates the reasons why Orthodox Jews should vote for Bush. d) Orthodox Jews see nothing wrong about allying themselves with either, the Christian Fundamentalists or the Catholic Church on issues that concern the security of Israel or on issues of morality such as Gay Rights, Family Values, or Abortion. That does not mean that they are ready to embrace Mel Gibson's bigoted father who denied that the Holocaust ever took place. e) All I did was report what actually transpired over the Sabbath within Orthodox Jewish communities. That was NOT an excuse for people to make personal attacks upon me (If you do not like the news shoot the messenger). In fact I clearly stated in my initial post that I did not share this opinion, a statement that many of you chose to overlook. Jack The Sailor, who hardly ever agrees with me on these issues, to his credit did not overlook this statement and applauded me for making it. f) In conclusion, let me say that I intend to pull the lever for John Kerry tomorrow and hope that I am not struck dead by a thunderbolt from heaven for doing so. SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:58 PM Not to be disrespectful, Rabbi Sol, but do you have another mudcat name? d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:16 AM Thanks, Alonzo!! I thought that seemed a bit "off". Rabbi Sol, do you have a reference? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: GUEST,Ellenpoly Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:59 AM I didn't find that, but I did find this.. http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?strwebhead=Push+for+Jewish+votes+in+Ohio&intcategoryid=4&SearchOptimize=Jewish+News |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:28 AM The Mudcat Make a link does not seem to be working. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:27 AM I'll try that link again. of Jewish voters |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive) Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:23 AM Many of the most revered and respected orthodox Rabbis of our generation, including deans of Rabbinical seminaries, who have always remained above politics and never before endorsed political candidates have endorsed Geroge W. Bush for re-election this year. In sermons that were delivered from the Sabbath pulpit yesterday they ruled that it is incumbent upon all Torah true Jews to vote for Bush no matter what you think of him as a person or no matter how much you hate his domestic policy. Sometimes, you gotta take a posting on Mudcat with a whole shaker of salt. Since first reading this thread, I've tracked the major Jewish news sites. None of them have any reports of an organized push by Orthodox rabbis, let alone "the most revered and respected orthodox Rabbis of our generation," to tell Jews how to vote in tomorrow's election. I also called a cousin of mine who is the rabbi at an Orthodox synagogue in Queens, NY. I read him the opening post in this thread by "Rabbi-Sol." He said it was categorically untrue. Kerry has been endorsed by some Jewish organizations, and by some rabbis. Bush has been endorsed by some Jewish organizations, and by some rabbis. Kerry's Senate voting record on Israel is considered to be excellent by the major Jewish/Israel-oriented organizations: AIPAC, B'nai Brith, etc. Jewish voters have tended to be overwhelmingly Democratic. Gore took about 80% of the Jewish vote in 2000. Polling in the Jewish community indicates Jews are supporting Kerry over Bush at a rate of 69% to 24%. of Jewish voters |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Ellenpoly Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:12 AM This thread depressed the hell out of me (can I GET any more depressed?) Thanks to jOhn of Hull of saving me from the depths once again. Deckman, that's a loaded statement. I love you anyway. ..xx..e (PS-Just the THOUGHT of the Orthodox Jews in bed with the Evangelicals is enough to keep me irreligious and celebate) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Mudlark Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:32 AM It seems to me the truly religious would leave the whole shebang up to god...just pray that the outcome of the election be the right one for both the US and the rest of the world. Ought to be a piece of cake to an entity that needed less than a week to create the world in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:18 AM Hello, I thought it said rabbits, i will get some new glasses! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:21 AM Rabbi Sol - Remember, "Don't give up something that you know is good for something that is unknown" Do you think that Bush is good? If you know that Bush is evil, it would seem that you would have to choose the unknown. Agreed? d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Bobert Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:41 PM Yo, Sol, I personally find the way you reported what the Orthodox Rabbis said to be pro Orthodox Rabbis. And given Sharon's attitude toward the Palestinians you have no right to talk about Lybia. Bush has done nuthin' but bring about instability in the Middle East. If you thin instability is in the best interest of Isreal I've got a bridge to sell you. Hey, I didn't like Clnton too much but he put forth an effort to bring about progress in the Isreali/Palestinain conflict. Maybe you think the US turning its back on that process is progress but I don't. If you were really intersted in Isreals right to exist you wouldn't have anything to do with a man who has turned his back and let Isreal have their way with the Palestinians. And this ain't anti-Semetic. Just the way most of the world sees it. But you go ahead and vote for Bush. And please don't come back with any "Well, you missed my point. This is what the Orthodox..." Bull. Reread the way you wrote it. Peace and Justice Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: pdq Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM Kerry: "I voted for Israel before I voted against it. Er, or was it the other way around. Uh..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:19 PM What do they think of the fundamentalist Christians, to whom they have now allied themselves, and their near-adoration of "The Passion of the Christ", anti-Semitic messages and all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:55 PM They can't. But the reasoning is "Don't give up something that you know is good for something that is unknown", an old Talmudic axiom. SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Orthodox Rabbis Endorse Bush From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:50 PM How can they predict what Kerry as president would do? |
