BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???

Subject: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:07 AM

Is it possible that Organised Religion is a form of Mental Illness.
They can't all be correct , they're always fighting each other and they seem to be rich organisations.
Whaddya reckon ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:14 AM

Sho nuff, I rckon it can be...

...but, fotunatrely, it doesn't have to be.

I am a Christain who sees nuthin' in common with the what Bush and his followers brand of Christianity. Don't make no sense to never open the Bible up past the Old Testament.

But, yes, it can very much take over one's mind in a negative way. Actually, I think that these folks may not be mentally ill but "consumed" with a need to be part of something and just get caught up in some bad stuff. Think of the Brownshirts in Germany. Were they mentally ill? Maybe and maybe not... Bu they sure were consumed and eat up by the "Movement"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:19 AM

that comment gives a double stigma, to both mental illness and religion.

Mental illnesses can affect persons of any age, race, religion, or income.They can affect athiests.

Stigma prevents people from getting treatment.

I think the more dangerous illness is ignorance - a deliberate choice of lack of responsibility, lack of awareness, and the ignorant are the pawns of the powerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:24 AM

Religion is a contentious subject around here Betsy, but sometimes when I see some of the sorts of people involved in practising religions I wonder. There would seem to be a type, particularly on the female side, they have pale earnest face, and often wear glasses and no, or little makeup, and while they are obviously loving Mothers and devoted spouses, they don't seem to have an abundance of social skills. Many of them should inherit the earth, on the basis of meekness anyway, and for them I think religion is a sort of moral crutch. I don't think that religion per se is a form of mental illness, although it may be that many practitioners are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
All in all though they are a good advert for christianity in its wider sense.
I shall now sit back and await the flak.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:29 AM

Religion itself is not. The use of religion (or anything else) as a substitute for confronting reality is always a mental mallfunction whether mild or whacky.

Organized religion is sort of an oxymoron, as the nature of reality is not very organized. But then again, folks is gonna lay down whatever they wish to discover and then discover it. This may seem crazy but its a pretty widespread sport with different topics.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:32 AM

Flak vest (fragmentation): Newest issue kevlar vest to the German military, comprising of six kevlar panels and one cloth cover. Cover is in flecktarn poly-cotton material, has zip-open slits for easy removal and insertion of kevlar panels. Cover features front expandable pocket, velcro openings over the left shoulder and on either side and a velcro sewn-in waist belt. Kevlar panels protect front, back, shoulders and neck. Weight is well distributed and the kevlar helps to spread the extra weight of webbing. The level of protection offered by the flak jacket is not guaranteed. Cover is machine-washable.

Staying out of this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM

Don't confuse religion, religious belief, theology, and a "church."

A church (and I'm not talking about a building) is a group of people who come together because they disagree about their religious beliefs less than with the religious beliefs of other people.

Theology is the human attempt to understand the structure of the Underlying Principle of a religion.

Religious belief is that body of belief, mores, and teachings that a particular church agrees upon.

Religion is what's left. When examined, religion doesn't differ from one church to another.

These statements seem to be true of ALL religions, not just that which is called "Christianity."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

Religion can be a form of mental illness, as can any other set of beliefs allied with practices.

For example...let's take your definition of religion, "They can't all be correct , they're always fighting each other and they seem to be rich organisations." ....and apply it to (big drum roll)...

POLITICAL PARTIES!!!!   (da-da-dum!)

Now let's apply it to....

NATIONALISM!!!!!   (da-da-dum!)

Those are two more areas in life which are absolutely riddled with mental illness, in my opinion. :-) Whaddya reckon? Then there is corporate competition for market share, the adversarial justice system, and organized sports! More rich organizations who are always fighting each other.

The fact is, there is are sane ways and a great many insane ways to do absolutely anything, religion included. To single out religion alone is probably an indication of your own prejudices, not a comment on religion itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:26 AM

Ouch Giok, that's a perceptive post! Put it in the context of folk music and it fits, too...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM

Giok - I am familiar with the type of female you describe! They are rather bloodless creatures, aren't they?...but basically they make fairly good and reliable neighbours in a chilling sort of way.
Their husbands, by the way, are often boring and deadly serious prats. Sometimes, however, they are the rosy-cheeked and enthusiastic type...forever rushing around busily doing "God's work". They have religious bumper stickers. They give me the creeps.

I prefer people who are spiritually minded, but do not belong officially to ANY particular religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:36 AM

Glok: I am very interested in this pale complexion/spectacle wearing stuff. You may have put your figure on something significant here. I have a fairly pale complexion, and recently,alas, I have taken to using reading glasses. I also have an indecent and consuming interest in folk music, though not (as yet) God. There is obviously something going on here, possibly indicative of mental diturbance. Who can say?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:42 AM

Could be. How often do you feel compelled to put on a Tom Waites CD?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:56 AM

I would like to put forth the proposition that all adversarial and exclusivity-minded systems are a form of mental illness...given the fact that we are all of one spirit.

It's called: "Divide and Conquer" Find out who runs it from the top, and you have the scoundrels who set it in motion. The ones who run it from the top will normally be found to have the lion's share of the money, the power, the weapons, and the prestige. They will live in the largest mansions. They will command armies. They will encourage the "rabble" whom they rule over on this planet to be divided against one another, to hate one another and to fight ceaselessly over religion, politics, race, nationality, morality issues, and (most importantly) market share.

And yet we are all One Humanity in Spirit. Ask Mother Teresa. Ask Gandhi. Ask Jesus or Buddha. Ask anyone who is truly wise and loving.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:00 AM

That Gandhi wore spectacles, but Jesus and Buddha didnt. Not sure about Mother Teresa. All of them a touch on the swarthy side I would have thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM

A recent European study indicated that church attendence skyrockets when economic and social conditions are uncertain, ie. when people are helpless and fearful. If the church they attend is absolutist.. Well, shit happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:45 AM

Do you ever get the impression that some people believe that they are more worthy, or "better" than you, because they belong to an Organised Religion and does / should this feeling have any merit ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:07 AM

That is a mechanism induced by the keepers of the religion in order to create a magnetic restraining field in their subject to keep those dollars coming in.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:34 AM

Well, I dunno. I feel sane, and I've worked in the Catholic Church all my days. I know a lot of sane, wonderful people who work in various denominations. There is something about religion, however, that draws some pretty weird people. Maybe it's because they're social outcasts who don't fit in other groups, and religious people are generally supposed to be nice to others and are more-or-less compelled to accept the weirdos. Back in my recent period of being single, I had some pretty weird Catholic women pining after me. It was downright dangerous to go to church at times.

I also worry about church leaders who take themselves and their authority too seriously - the ones who have absolutely no sense of humor.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

There is of course as Joe says a few weird people who call themselves religious adherents, but they do tend to be socially inept to start with, and when they find an organisation that that says 'all are welcome' they think 'goodie people that will speak to me'. They tend to be the sort of person who gets picked last when sides are sorted for sports, and finding someone who looks for the good in everybody, plus the turning of the other cheek, they stick around. These observations are true of religion in the UK especially as personifed by the Church of England, you folks in the US seem from here to have more robust and 'in your face' religions of the type that would never catch on here in the country of the queue, where people say sorry even when it's not their fault.
Giok
[That's GEE EYE OH KAY to you Greg, and Benjamin Franklin occurred after Jesus and Buddha, who may have needed glasses, but they hadn't been invented yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

Yes and the more devout, the more serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:24 PM

Well, Joe, as the ex-officio Pope of the Mudcat Badlands , you seem to have kept your sense of humor intact, and a damned good thing, too! We'd really be in the soup without it!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

Vatican I say Amos, if nothing else, that soup would have a lovely aROMA.
Giok

2,4,6,8 time to transubstantiate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

Organized religion can be a lot like organized crime sometimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 12:57 PM

Betsey,

Read Michel Foucault's Madness and Civilization to get a good grasp of how society determines and misues the diagnosis of "mental illness."

You said They can't all be correct ,--I ask "why not?" If they (in particular, the non-industrial autochthonous religions) address the needs of a given people and function in a local way, they might be correct, for each given group. That isn't to say they are--we can all see social and political inequities in places around the world, practices that are frankly inhumane, but this should be addressed in a secular manner, not pitting one religion against another. Each religion typically has stuff that has gone disused for a while, that can be revived to address new issues; give those other teachings a chance. Religion can respond to society and change, despite some of the big religions that would like society to be static and let them have the upper-hand socially. This "they can't all be correct" presumes a judeo-christian view that one over-arching god and religion is all that is needed, and others should be stamped out via converting the world.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:03 PM

I would be inclined to say that yes, religion is a form of mental illness except that I take freda's point. I am also uncomfortable with Giok's sterotyping as I know some very level-headed (ie freethinking) women who don't like make-up.

Once again the Oxford professor Richard Dawkins, whom I have sometimes quoted here, has put his finger on it: religion is a virus of the mind. It survives and propagates exactly like a virus and, of course, it attacks the weak. Just as I have read people who write from a religious perspective and keep the Old and New Testaments constantly to hand, I would urge believers to read Dawkins' book "The Selfish Gene."

Most Christian and other belief-based stories are so shot through with internal contradictions that I can only marvel when adherents refuse to acknowledge that the emperor is wearing no clothes. Religions could not survive without being constantly revised and reinvented to stay within touching distance of whatever is the popular mood of the day. The results are miasmas of compromise – beliefs contrived precisely to give the anipulatively minded a degree of power over the feeble minded.

When the missionary David Livingstone reached previously unknown tries in Africa, his first thought was the new markets they represented for consumables like shoes. His second thought was that Christianity would be the key to unlock those markets. It's a pity that some of the hardline religious nuts in Africa who now revile the evils of homosexuality, etc, don't pause to remember why their so-called Christianity was thrust upon them in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:08 PM

I think that organized religion is sometimes used by people who are criminally insane as a way to manipulate people into doing or giving consent to reprehensible things that they might not do or consent to otherwise. I also think that criminally insane peope sometimes create jingoistic "civil religions" which they use for the same purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

I'm guessing that the point of this thread is to make the atheists feel better about themselves by putting down the beliefs of others. Kinda like whistling in the dark ?

I guess it's a form of mass hysteria since more people believe in some form of higher power than don't. This is the type of discussion where people already have their minds made up before they get here. There are evil and misguided people who have religious beliefs and there are also atheists that are evil and misguided people. Perhaps we have to look at the individuals to find the real answers. It requires more effort - and being a bigot is so much simpler.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

I think religion is anything you do religiosly.

As to the churches - well thats another matter.

The churches are supposed to be the people who hold the same religious beliefs. These beliefs are brokered by the priests, ministers, etc.

I'm sure that people with mental illnesses are attracted to the boundaries imposed by church doctrine and that some of the 'keepers of the faith' are driven mad by the power they have. That doesn't mean that religion is inherently crazy.

I would say, however that faith is a pretty good excuse for lack of foresight and planning. It must be comforting to know that God is on your side at all times, no matter what you do. That no matter what the consequences of your actions may be, you will be forgiven.

That said, I think Bush has given religion a very bad reputation.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:02 PM

Mental illness has many symptoms. Dramatization of concepts is one of them. These can be literary concepts, concepts drawn from pop culture or TV, or even from religion. It is not the source of the concepts that makes for madness, but the dramatization of them. Deciding to go on a crusade on behalf of the old Jehovah of the Old Testament, at the expense of others' lives and mutual peace, would be an example of insanity painted with the colors of a religion.

Irresponsibility consists of displacing one's own causation for one's own condition and projecting it onto other forms, people, agents, or forces. HEre again it can be the schools, the church, the "society" (whatever that may mean to the individual), one's parents, siblings, tragedies in history, religious doctrine or even invisible metaphysical forces such as God, Jesus, aliens, radio w aves or what have you.

Again it is not the target of the dispalcement that mnakes for madness but the fact of shedding the ownership for the causing of one's own life.

In these ways and some others, religions are often used as masks of madness or vehicles for dramatization when in fact they are in and of themselves no more or less mad than any other philkosophical belief system.

It needs to be pointed out that madness in various degrees can be precipitated -- especially in the young or infirm -- by enforcing ideas with which the individual cannot readily reason. Such ideas can include irrational moral codes, arbitrary authoritarian rulings, images of all-powerful but obsessed entities who rule one's life, invisible beings who might punish one, and other imaginings used to control the thoughtsof another person. THis is the most unhealthy and toxic use of religion and does not deserve the name of religion, as it is the cognitive equivalent, when it is done, of lambasting someone with a belt or a two-by-for in order to induce understanding, a failed methodology.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

I'm guessing that the point of this thread is to make the atheists feel better about themselves by putting down the beliefs of others.

You appear to be saying that that's bad when atheists do it but OK when conventionally religious people do it, as the more vocally religious love to do.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:32 PM

I, like Wesley, find this thread to be laughable. Just as in the Wicca/Halloween thread those that don't believe are using it as an excuse to blast the beliefs of others. Many of these same folks you will find in other threads talking about diversity and tolerance. Sometimes hypocrisy, even if unintended, is too hard to ignore.

When a thread starts on this type of predicate, it is designed to cause religious folks to be on the defensive. I hope you won't mind if I don't play along. Truthfully, I could care less if you all mind.

Religion, Church, faith, are terms that are often used interchangeably when, in fact, they have very different connotations. Church, and its hierarchy, is nothing more than an institution devoted to the practice of religious ideals. It's members are a community of somewhat (operative term there)like minded individuals. Sometimes these institutions are used for good, and sometimes not. In fact sometimes these institutions can be evil. That is not unique to religious organizations. Religions, in the common usage, refer to how one worships, celebrates, or relates to the higher power they believe in. For what it is worth, I have seen some secular organizations that were almost a religion. Again, most try to do good, others great evil. And finally, there is faith. No point trying to debate that here. It is not quantifiable, nor is it consistently applied. Those of us who think we have it, will just have to disagree with those who think it is foolish and misplaced.

Here is the real problem with the entire premise of this thread. It asks us to debate whether it is an illness. That is a ridiculous premise. Of course it isn't. No more so than secular dogma that promotes ethnic cleansing. Religion is a belief system, nothing more. When one seeks to create a debate on such a flawed premise, they are really seeking to discredit and spread their own agenda. To put religious beliefs in the same category as illness completely ignores the good that has been done by so many religious leaders. Gandhi comes to mind. The Dalai Lama does as well. As do many leaders among the various Christian religions. It places all the good works done by religious folks such as Mother Theresa in the illness category.

In short, what a biased and ridiculous premise to open a thread on.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:37 PM

Life is a form of mental illness. What has religion got to do with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

Mick:

I think you will agree that those who are mentally ill often use religous language or religous groups to hide behind, as well as sometimes getting into other things to cover up their probelms and seek to survive. The number of priests charged with molestation in recent years is a classic example, but it might as well be parents who beat their kids or people who teach scripture in authoritarian, dogmatic ways. And again, you might as well find them in organiuzations like the boy scouts, or local drama clubs, or any other group -- and in all these cases it ha snothing to do with where they end up, or what they dramatize. The "mental illness" is a totally indpendant variable.

The only intersection is when any group enforces data on its members such that it makes them less able to think freely for themselves.
SOme churches and some religions do this, but then so do some boyscout troops, or social studies classes. You can find insanity anywhere, and you can find people who try to heal it, and those who seek to make it worse.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 02:51 PM

Amos, I agree that folks with mental illness will latch onto any organization that is handy and allows them the room to maneuver. As to the number of priests charged with sexual misconduct, the severest critics agree that the total number is something less than 2%. How does that bolster any argument about mental illness? I have been a Boy Scout and I have been an Altar Server. Guess which organization it was that I was sexually abused in when I was just a kid? The Boy Scouts. The workplace sees many more examples, by number and by percentage, of sexual abuse and mental abuse. Does that make employment a form of mental illness?

The whole predicate this thread is formed on is phoney and agenda driven.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:14 PM

Any absolute belief system is liable to criminal application. And probably will be used this way. The question should be "Are tolerant religions insane?", and the answer is "No."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:18 PM

"You appear to be saying that that's bad when atheists do it but OK when conventionally religious people do it, as the more vocally religious love to do."

Peter. I never said that at all. Whatever made you jump to that conclusion ? You're adding two and two and coming up with five. Perhaps what I should have said was the atheists "OF THIS THREAD" want to feel better about themselves by putting down the beliefs of others. Does that make it clearer ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:23 PM

Religion seems to be normal and many think it's hard-wired into humans.

Maybe organizations are normal, but they are almost always power structures, and we all know what power does. Pretty soon the organization itself becomes more important than whatever they organized for. The American school system, political parties -- which are organized with power in mind -- and corporations, for example.

The Rainbow Family & the Discordians don't seem to be power structures, much, and they're usually considered to be nutsy by the general population. I suspect even they have some members that are More Equal.

There's a good book called "Systemantics" devoted to what inevitably goes wrong with systems. (Note the "n.") It's one of those funny-but-serious books like "The Peter Principle" and "Parkinson's Law." and it's true! True!

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 03:26 PM

Invert the topic and see what happens:

"Is Mental Illness a form of Religion?"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

why are people so afraid of mental illness?

Anthony Mannix

1953, Australia

Self-taught artist, born in 1953, Newton, Australia. Anthony has lived with a biochemical imbalance most of his life forcing him in and out of psychiatric institutions for many years. He is not afraid calling his illness, "madness".

However he decided not to fight against, but rather to live with, to adopt it. "There's nowhere else to go. Or you jump out a window. There are three choices: it destroys you, you destroy yourself to get away from it or you do something else. I'll do something else." Inspired by the surrealists, he began making outsider art in 1980 and for some years thought himself alone in this, as then he had no contact with people. His art has a fairly direct connection to unconscious, "to the source" as he says. He uses his self-taught art as a mean of bringing his unconscious to the conscious world through numerous journals, ink drawings, paintings…

In 1984, with his friend Philip Hammial, they found the "Australian collection of outsider art" promoting this marginal art by organising the first outsider art exhibitions in Australia, making videos…

www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/nightair/stories/s861423.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:13 PM

I agree, Freda, but that is an entirely separate issue. The predicate here has nothing to do with discussion of religion or mental illness.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

one aspect of the mental condition of being human is that we are ABLE to consider such questions, yet no one has to be logical, reasonable or cafeful in order to have an opinion. We can debate what is 'beautiful', or whether there ever was a 'creator' of the universe without having any particular evidence for or against. So, no ...no 'position' is a form of mental illness in itself, but maybe some answers on either side, by some people, in some circumstances, indicate mental laziness and ineptitude.

Mental illness should be reserved for other situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:34 PM

Mick:

I really want you to know where I am coming from on this question, obviously a sensitive one.

1. Religion is NOT a form of Mental Illness.

2. Mental illness sometimes manifests itself as extreme religiosity, a dramatization which is not, in fact, the same thing as religion.

3. In the form that it is posed, you are absolutely correct that the premise of the question is untenable. It is something like asking "Is it crazy to understand things?", a question with self contradiction woven into its fabric.

4. Organizing the inherent spiritual religiousness of the human being is risky, and if badly manbaged can drive people toward madness.

That's my two cent's worth.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM

Stilly - Great point! Yes, they CAN disagree with each other and still all be right!...meaning...they are right from their own point of view, given the conditions and situation within which they are working.

There is no one way that people have to live or be in order to be "right". There are many ways. It is up to each person to find the way of living that is best for him or her, but that will not be the way that is best for everybody...nor SHOULD it be.

Mick - You are absolutely right. This thread was launched on a stupid, valueless premise, indicative of gross prejudice and almost no real thought or analysis.

And folks, it is the "civil" religions that really worry me. Those are the ones that end up controlling the lives of millions and sending armies overseas to smash up other countries. Compared to those civil religions, the influence of church-sponsored religions on most people is small potatoes. Most so-called atheists are firmly in the grip of one or another of these civil religions...as are most churchgoers. You do not need to believe in God to be religious. Not in the least. You just have to believe in a concept that is larger than yourself and quite possibly mythological in nature, and then devote yourself to that concept and serve it. Like...the idea that your country stands for "liberty and freedom", for instance, when what it really stands for is military and financial supremacy and exploitation on a worldwide scale. Now THAT's a religion that has teeth, and it kills people all over the World in its righteous, crusading zeal.

The Germans under Hitler practiced a messianic civil religion of extraordinary vigor and potency. It was called "Naziism". The Russians under Stalin practiced a different civil religion, equally messianic. It was called "Communism" (or Stalinism). Chairman Mao launched a civil-religious revival called "The Great Cultural Revolution". Pol Pot did something similar and even worse in Cambodia. The USA is presently engaged in a civil-religious crusade called "The War on Terrorism".

Of those above 5 examples, 2 of them claimed to represent God in some way (the Nazis and the USA), while 3 of them didn't profess ANY belief in God (Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot). I repeat, you do NOT need to believe in God in order to be religious. You just have to believe in something that is intangible and much larger than yourself. An idea, in other words. A big idea. Dangerous ideas can persuade people to oppress and kill other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM

I think people who watch t.v. religiously are mentally ill.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:41 PM

Actually, a very interesting question.

In the mid-80s, two brothers who were fundamentalist Mormons butchered the wife and two year old child of their third brother, because they received direct instruction from God to do so. Dialoging with God on an active and ongoing basis is a fundamental tenet of Mormonism. If God instructs you to tear down your garage and build a Temple to Him, you are duty-bound to do His will. God had running instructional dialogues with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many others right up to the current leader of the Mormon Church. Blood atonement, the notion that certain sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, is also fundamental to Mormonism. Thus, if God's voice comes to you and tells you your brother's wife is a sinner and she needs to die for it, can you plead an insanity defense? Belief in the unseen and the irrational is part and parcel of most faiths. Is it insane only at the extremities of its practice?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, once again I recommend reading The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason by Charles Freeman; Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2003 (Freeman is British, and there is a British edition also, but I don't know the publisher).

Freeman outlines the beginnings and the development of Greek philosophy, the schism between Aristotle and Plato (one road leads to scientific thinking, the other to mysticism), the birth of Jesus, the early development of Christianity, the fragmentation of early Christian belief, the development of "one true Church" under the aegis (and imperial power) of the emperor Constantine, and the adoption of neo-Platonism as a way of philosophically justifying Christian doctrine. The abandonment of—indeed, the hostility toward—observation and reason in favor of asceticism, prayer, and "divine revelation" was what led to that period we now refer to as the Dark Ages. This period of intellectual and philosophical stagnation ended with the rediscovery of the writings of Aristotle, one of a number of intellectual factors that sparked the Renaissance.

The struggles and disputes between people such as Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine and others as each claimed to have a direct pipeline to The Truth makes a fascinating story (it's obvious that a lot of these folks could have used a good "shrink") and goes a long way to explaining the modern Christian church in its "infinity variety." Suffice it to say the Jesus got lost way, way early.

This is not an anti-religious book. But it does illustrate what can happen when we forget that God gave us brains with the intention that we use them. Failure to do that, at least in my theology, qualifies as sin. I would recommend the book to "heathen" and Christian alike. It gives a pretty good idea of where it all went wrong, and why. It's a bit of a tome, but it reads almost like a novel. It's one helluva good read!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:47 PM

I think you have gone meshugonah without a doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:18 PM

LOL Brucie!

Big Mick may find the question phoney, but it is one that has been excercising philosphers for many years. Leej's post explains why it should not just be laughed away.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:27 PM

Peter/Fionn, I am not sure what the problem seems to be, but that is OK. I stand by my contention that this thread was started with an agenda. I also think you contention that philosophers have been exercised for years by THIS question to be without merit. If you could give me some cites, I would be happy to retract that statement.

Amos, I understood where you were coming from. I am not at all bothered nor am I misunderstanding. My response comes from the fact that I believe that debating an issue on a phony premise is a worthless idea. I understand that we may disagree on that but it is my feeling.

BTW, your last statement, Organizing the inherent spiritual religiousness of the human being is risky, and if badly manbaged can drive people toward madness. is right on the mark.

All the best,

Mick