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BS: Voting problems arising
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Subject: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:59 PM Might as well start with this thread now...just put online 20 minutes ago... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20041102/ap_on_el_pr/eln_voting_problems Please add on website article as you find them...this could become quite a long thread, I fear. ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM You mean, after 4 years, they still haven't learned? Or else they're trying that trick again.... how else is he going to get back in - Bush MUST serve another term, he hasn't finished colouring in that book yet. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Burke Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:28 PM Liz, Problems have been predicted for Florida & Ohio especially for weeks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: chris nightbird childs Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM I know that a lot of Pennsylvanians are strickly for Kerry. Hoping that'll give him an edge... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Taibnor Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:11 AM Sorry to piss on your candles but the voting problems are few and far between. Old Memogate himself, Dan Rather has called it for Bush. T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: beardedbruce Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:28 AM In Colorado, Republican Party officials said a lawyer for the Democrats showed up at an Eagle County precinct with a list of registered GOP voters, planning to challenge them all. Democrats admitted it was true. In other closely contested states — including Iowa and Michigan — the liberal group MoveOn.org was accused of disrupting local precincts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:55 AM I was a non-partisan poll monitor for Election Protection in Philadelphia, and I didn't see anything too bad. A few people were turned away over obvious clerical errors (the person who recorded their registration changed a w. to an e. in an address, as in e. Osborne st instead of w. Osborne st., moving the person to an entirely different district). One Republican precinct captain went ballistic and threatened Democratic poll watchers, saying "I'll kick your ass, and then my biker friends will come and finish the job!" The Dems called the cops. Weirdly, this same GOP precinct captain had a beef against Arlen Specter (his own party's candidate for Senator) and ripped all the Specter signs to little shreds. If you discount this one crazy guy, who did as much damage to his own party as to the other party, there were no shenanigans in my little corner of Philly! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Taibnor Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:01 AM I had no trouble voting. I saw no problems or disruptions. I met old friends there and had a good time. T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: chris nightbird childs Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:03 AM That sounds like the republican mentality for ya... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM I was ashamed that I didn't vote today. Then I remembered I'm Canadian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: chris nightbird childs Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:36 AM It looks like Georgie might have the last laugh... I just can't believe 169 people voted for him! There's only one word that comes to mind at this moment, repeated over and over again it goes : "baaa... baaa... baaa..." thanks to the wooly republicans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,peedeecee Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM George W Bush didn't need chicanery, cheating, voter problems, electronic voting machine problems, or thugs. All he needed was what he had: a completely dumbed down America. Bye-bye, USA. You were great for a while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:10 AM The Bush people are clammering for Kerry to concede Ohio. But the provisional ballots have not been counted there yet, and there appear to be at least 200,000 provisional ballots in Ohio. The provisional ballots were used precisely to prevent the kind of disenfranchisement we saw in Florida last time around. So to concede before the provisional ballots are counted would be Florida 2000 all over again. I think the Bush people are desperate for Kerry to concede before the provisional ballots are counted because they know those votes are going to go to Kerry. Stay the course, Kerry! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: chris nightbird childs Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:11 AM Like I said elsewhere, it ain't over yet... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:34 AM John Edwards just speaking now "We have waited four years...we can wait another night" "In this election, every vote would count, and every vote will be counted...you deserve no less" ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Jack the Sailor Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:53 AM They need to count the votes all of them. If someone filled out a provisional ballot it MUST be counted!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Deckman Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:59 AM You know ... there is an "up" side to all this confusion. It gives our "Supreme" Court something to do. And of course we all know just how well they did the last time they had to decide a national election! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:27 AM Latest news from Ohio http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041103/325/f5uz4.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Liz the Squeak Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:29 AM Why don't we just line the candidates up and do 'ip dip bird shit' (or Eeny meeny miny mo, if you prefer....), it would be just as "democratic" as the US voting system seems to be..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:41 AM Excellent website from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/americas/04/vote_usa/map/html/default.stm ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Bill D Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM almost 55 million of us tried....I can't explain why it didn't 'quite' work... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:11 AM Ah well... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM Then there was the voting machine in Ohio that yielded a result at one point of MINUS 25,000,000 votes! Completely aside from the fact that lots of voters were effectively prevented from voting by lines so long you had to wait -- in rain or burning sun -- 2 to 6 hours to vote! -- aside from those problems (mostly in heavily Democratic areas) there were about 30% of the votes cast on electronic machines with NO PAPER TRAIL and with "proprietary software" such that not even the county or state election officials are legally allowed to view their source codes! To quote Greg Palast GregPalast.com "Are [we] INSANE??!!" BlackBoxVoting.com Not only HAVE their been quite a few reported cases of ACTUAL malfunctions -- e.g., you touch the screen for X and Y's name lights up, or the machine breaks down and loses 2 hours worth of votes -- but even if there were no KNOWN problems, how the heck can anyone have faith that the machine count is free from both unplanned malfunctions and deliberate tampering? Especially when the manufacturers -- the only ones allowed to program them and view the code -- are loyal to one party? (The head of Diebold is a major contributor to and operative for the Republican Party and even openly stated that he pledged to do whatever he could to deliver Ohio for The President.) Say what you will about pollsters, but exit polls conducted by reputable and respected polling firms have an excellent track record in predicting Presidential races. At least they did till Florida in 2000 -- especially West Palm Beach Co., home of the "butterfly ballot." And till this year, when we are all at the mercy of the unverifiable paperless machines to know what the vote count IS in many counties! When there's no other way of checking the accuracy of the machines, comparing the official count with the exit poll figures is the next best thing, and doing that this year casts suspicion on the accuracy of the official results. There have some analyses of election results that show that Bush averaged 5% more votes in counties where the infamous electronic machines were used than in places with a paper trail. If this is true, it's all the more remarkable because, at least in some states, like Florida, the electronic machines tended to be used in counties that usually vote heavily Democratic. One more "voting problem" that's being overlooked by the media because "the margin in the election is too big for it to matter": There are hundreds of thousands of votes -- maybe millions -- that have not been counted and may never be. E.g., over 37% of Floridians voted by absentee ballot -- many of them Democrats who did not trust the paperless machines. They have not been counted and, since Kerry's already conceded, Florida does not plan to count them. Many states don't bother counting absentee ballots, provisional ballots, or ballots that require hand counting (ballots spit out by a machine, ballots with write-in candidates, etc.) once they've determined who gets their electoral votes. But this is a sort of catch-22, innit? You don't bother making sure all the ballots in a state are counted, even if the election is close, if a candidate has a wide enough margin in the popular vote. And you base that popular-vote margin on INCOMPLETE state counts, incomplete because you've decided the national margin is wide! Etc. Etc. We are SERIOUSLY in need of ELECTION REFORM! It was supposed to happen after the 2000 fiasco, but the Dubya admin. had better things to do with the money (like give it to Halliburton and the like), so the states never got the funding they needed to implement the reforms. Now the news media are saying these reforms should be in place within 4 years. FOUR YEARS?! Why the heck should we expect things to be better 4 years from now when in many ways they're WORSE now than they were 4 years ago -- partly because the media don't bring the problems to the public's attention till a couple weeks before a friggin election?! Do I think the results of this election were clear, accurate and fair? Not on your life! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:26 AM I don't see why they would be difficult for the precincts to just take care of themselves. I live in an area that probably doesn't have much money for voting equipment, but it seems to be able to manage paper ballot voting. Why can't all precincts just use paper ballots? At least with the paper ballots, even if the scanning machines don't count the votes accurately, at least there is a paper trail for conducting a recount if needed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:23 AM Today's analysts are bemoaning the fact that the exit polls didn't match the voting. Well, think about it. There are a couple of possibilities. The voters questioned were voting for Kerry, but pollsters didn't ask all voters, so they may have been light and not really balanced on the polling. OR Bobert got it right, and Diebold did deliver. There weren't paper receipts for most of those machines. How is anyone going to know their vote was lost or not counted with no way of tracking, except annecdotal evidence that it seemed like more democrats voted than the count reveals. Duh. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:43 AM As long as there's no paper trail, no way for anyone to check the accuracy of the tallies spewed out by electronic voting machines, how can anyone have faith in the electoral process?? Even if the exit polls matched up perfectly with the "black boxes'" results, it's still insanity to conduct an election where a recount isn't possible. (In fact, in some states, e.g., FLORIDA, it's ILLEGAL to do that.) But in this election, both the pre-election polls and the exit polls were pretty widely discrepant from the "official" results (without all the absentee and provisional ballots counted). These election results are highly suspect IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:49 AM I agree with you Genie. Thoughtful and informative posts...thank you. ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: NH Dave Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:44 AM One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Kim C Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM If Kerry had won, would we be having this conversation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Dani Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM No, but someone would be... Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM I would, Kim C. I want our elections to be honest and above any hanky panky whatever. Regardless of who wins. I want to live in a Democracy. If the candidate of my choice wins by less than honest means, I might feel that it benefits me, but only in the short run. In the long run, dishonest elections hurt everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window. Not true Dave. One CAN poll people who vote early, just by sending the pollsters out there early too. No great difficulty there. As to Absentee ballots and provisional ballots, these tend to make so little difference they are almost never counted in US elections--the election officers just wait until the machine votes and real-time votes are counted, then count the absentee ballots only if they will make a difference. Usually they won't. Since the reported vote count ignores absentee ballots, the exit poll will more accurately reflect the reported vote count by ignoring the absentee ballots too. Sad but true, absentee voters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM NH Dave - "One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window. " Early voters can be polled, and their responses should be included. Absentee voters are not polled, and their numbers can be great. Nerd, you're right that absentee votes are seldom counted, unless the election is "close." But this year in Florida I understand that about 37% of the state voted absentee, largely because people didn't trust the paperless machines. Since the electronic machines tended to be used in heavily Democratic counties, there's a good chance the absentee votes might be as much as 2:1 in favor of Kerry & the Democrats. Especially when much political hay is being made over the POPULAR VOTE, it's important that ALL VOTES be counted -- even if we think the voters have decided on all issues and candidates. The SPREAD is important, too, when interepreting "the will of the people." It's outrageous for FLORIDA to have been called for Bush when the absentee ballots have not been counted. Kim C - "If Kerry had won, would we be having this conversation?" Not only WOULD we, Kim, but people like Bev Harris and Greg Palast and many, many others HAVE BEEN having this conversation for YEARS. The mainstream media have given it little attention, but lots of us have been talking about voter problems and demanding that they be fixed ever since the fall of 2000. And the issue is NOT who WINS. The issue is that EVERYONE ELIGIBLE to vote should be ALLOWED to vote -- without being harrassed or threatened or having to stand on line for hours -- and even ENCOURAGED to vote. Then EVERY VOTE SHOULD BE COUNTED. Them's s'posed to be the RULES in our "democracy." We need to keep having "this conversation" till those in power GET it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: dianavan Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM Makes ya kinda wonder how the voting will go in Iraq. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots. I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM They're afraid. They know they can't win without cheating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Jubilation T Cornpone Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM The South shall rise again! JTC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Kim C Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:45 PM I'm sorry; I must have missed something. Did someone cheat? Kerry and Edwards made it very clear they would hang on until every last vote was counted. They didn't. If you all think Kerry could have won if he had held out, then blame him for conceding. Although I imagine someone would have a conspiracy theory for that, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,petr Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM or how about this.. oops voting machine in ohio gives bush extra 4000 votes you only need a few of those.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:03 PM There's a new report about Ohio today. Apparently there's a precinct where 600+ voters cast ballots and the machine reported about 600 for Kerry and almost 4,000 for Bush! Nerd - "I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots." Ken Blackwell, Ohio Secretary Of State, has vowed that he WILL count all the provisional ballots. I DK if he's promised to count all the absentee ballots though. "I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count." Personally, I'd like to see legislation to require that a state must count ALL votes before certifying the vote count. That, and an agreement that the state would not announce its totals till the votes were certified. That would not prevent exit polls and "leaks," but it would keep the election results in the realm of speculation till the votes were counted. (Absentee ballots could be required to be RECEIVED by Nov. 2. Oregon votes entirely by mail and Nov. 2 is the deadline for receiving all ballots.) Any "concessions" before that could be considered as non-binding. (I don't know if the election "result" can be overturned if it's found that the actual results are different from the election night projections. They probably can if it's discovered before the Electoral College casts votes. But though Nixon was officially re-elected in 1972, the misdeeds of his organization were brought to light during his administration and he was driven out of office.) Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd - PM Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots. I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count. CarolC "They're afraid. They know they can't win without cheating." Well, they didn't even trust their own campaign to win without blatant LYING about Kerry. And in 2000 they didn't trust that they could win if all the votes in Florida were counted. Why should their cheating stop now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM Interesting, Genie. I was going by what CNN said the afternoon Kerry conceded. They said that vote counting in Ohio would stop. I'm glad to hear they were wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM Good point Genie. Kim C, if a pattern can be shown in which the districts that used voting machines had a higher discrepancy with the exit polls than districts that used verifiable voting methods, that would be enough to suggest that the non-verifiable voting machines are highly suspect, and very probably rigged. If people don't have anything to hide, they won't object to making sure that it's possible to verify all votes. As things stand right now, a significant percentage of votes cast in this election cannot be verified because the machines on which they were cast leave no paper trail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM CarolC In Maryland, a solid Dem. state, we were forced to use electronic machines, with no paper trail. Makes you wonder.... ANd of course, the state went for Kerry.... In four counties. I find it interesting to look at the county-by-county maps of EACH state- Like PA. Note that usually some small number of the counties went blue, but with enough votes to carry the entire state. Seems to me that it looks as if the Dems were making sure they held "their" states, regardless of the votes cast. Just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Frank Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM The black boxes under Diebold stole this election. It has undermined our democracy. Kerry betrayed his followers by not having the votes counted before he conceded. In a way, I can kind of understand it though. Who needed to be a president that would be a Republican football? Now we have another Bush four years to dishonor the office. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM So I'm sure you would like to make sure that all votes are verifiable yourself, beardedbruce. I'm not a Democrat, and I have no stake in making sure that either party can prevail. I just want to live in a democracy that has a government by the people, for the people, and of the people, and in which every voter has an equal number of votes. I want honest elections. I'm sure you feel the same way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:04 PM CarolC, I agree with you on this topic, entirely. I just want to let people know that it is the system, and NOT just one party, that does this. To blame the Republicans, and let the Democrats get away with the same thing is ridiculous, but unfortunately what I see here all the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM PA by county DEMS win, of course... MD by county.... DEMs win, of course... NY state by county... DEMs win. of course... Michigan by county... DEMs win, of course... It seems to me that if there is an indication of fraud, a good case could be made that the Democrats really lost by a much larger margin. Or do you really think that the Dems would not stoop to such tactics? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM Frank, I think you are wrong to blame Kerry. He did make a point to say that every vote will be counted. IF there were something to change the election, the fact that Kerry "conceded" would not negate the result. The electoral college still has to meet and the election ratified. Speeches do not seal fates. I am glad Kerry did what he did. I am sure if they had proof that there was enough problems that he would have stayed in. The fact that is he helped start the healing process. We don't want to look like a bunch of whiners. We want justice, but we are also realistic. Sure there were problems. There always have been. This wasn't the same as 2000. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:10 PM I don't know, beardedbruce. Only way to find out is to make sure all votes are verifiable and counted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Alba Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:19 PM I think it would help People understand where their Vote went....why not Count them. I do however question a machine Ballot that has no paper backup...machines are machines after all.....Any Vote is too important to trust it to a device that may malfunction.... If they are for Bush then....they are for Bush. If they are for Kerry well they are for Kerry. Surely the information on the numbers alone would be an asset to either Party...no? and peace of mind for those who Voted and feel that their Vote didn't Count...because nobody counted them....it just doesn't seem right. I say if your confident about your Win it would be a Patriotic and Bipartisan thing to do.... Just a thought Blessings Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 05 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM bb, I don't know what you think you're proving. That map of PA is exactly what anyone from PA would expect. Philadelphia and Allegheny counties (Philly and Pittsburgh) pretty strongly for Kerry, their suburban areas all for Kerry too, sometimes by as much as 15 points without any visible blue appearing. The challenge for Kerry was if he would get suburban voters in places like Montgomery county, and if he would get turnout in places like Philly. I was a poll monitor in Philly, so I can tell you that I saw the turnout with my own eyes in Philly at three polling places, and we were at 2-5 TIMES the numbers that voted in 2000. But i watched 'em going in and counted them, so I know it was for real. All those counties that look so red, unfortunately for Bush, have very few people in them. If you win where the people are, you win. But I agree with you and carol that all the votes should be counted and verified if necessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM Nerd, My point was that only a few counties need be rigged, to throw the entire state- to either side. I understand about the population, but that only reinforces my point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Bill D Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:24 PM *IF* there has been rigging done, it should be stopped. It is just that there do not seem to be any |
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Subject: Nationwide voting machine audit sought From: Genie Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM BlackBoxVoting.org has filed the biggest Freedom Of Information request ever, seeking audits of the electronic voting machines in 300 counties. Corporate Machines threw OH & FL election? Ralph Nader is getting behind this effort too -- as a consumer advocate, not as a candidate who lost: Nader seeks NH voting audit |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:32 AM Alrighty then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM No it doesn't, bb. You're thinking as though the urban counties have one big voting machine, or one big voting district. Philadelphia is divided by population into a huge number of districts which each get several machines. We do not use paperless machines, by the way. So to rig "only" Philadelphia means rigging just as many voting machines in just as many districts as you would to rig an equivalent population in rural PA. In the area of Philly I was in, we had one machine per about 500 registered voters, which is a pretty good ratio, so in fact there may be MORE machines per person to cover in the city than in the country, making it HARDER to rig the urban counties. I suppose it might be marginally easier to do the cities in that you don't have to drive as far to get from machine to machine, but 1) it wouldn't surprise me if all the machines for rural Pennsylvania were stored together at some point. and 2) I don't think that the driving is really an obstacle to people who are rigging an election. In any case, you're just doing what you often do: trying to change the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Metchosin Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM My understanding is that the machines are connected to a modem and therein lies more vulnerability to hacking or altering totals by outside or (inside) sources, this according to my more savy computer programming daughter. One thing for certain, after reading this, I'm sure thankful for our suposedly antiquated locked slotted metal box and pencil and paper method and the scrutineers who stand watch over the process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Frank Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:06 PM The election was stolen thanks to Walden Odell, Jeb Bush and Ken Blackwell not to mention the suppression by white Republican yahoos in minority voting areas. For furthur information go to www.blackboxvoting.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:48 PM Bush might have won without voter fraud, just on the basis of the inept, gutless media and a "dumbed down" populace, but it's becoming more and more apparent that he -- and probably some Repub. candidates for the House and Senate -- had more than a litte help from hacking, proprietary source codes, and outright voter suppression and intimidation in largely Arican-American and native American precincts. The major media are being muzzled about this, but the story is getting bigger by the hour, and some of the many organizations signing on to fight the fraud are garnering successes in that fight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 13 Nov 04 - 01:41 AM If anyone is interested, here is an organization in the process of doing something to make sure there is an accurate investigation into the whole process. Let's face it, without such an investigation, it's only going to continue to be a faulty system..xx..e http://www.moveon.org/front/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:34 AM And another one...xx...e http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/index.cfm?CFID=13975562&CFTOKEN=4505e37bb0d84744-35C7BB2C-F41E-B87D-FA0E9C0170F7699D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM Metochin, your daughter is right. One of the most INSANE aspects of this year's general election is that in many states a lot of precinct data were sent to the central computer over simple modems, from machines using MS Windows and programs like Excel. Talk about hackability!!! >:( The Republicans SHOULD be as concerned about this as any other party. After all, it's been recognized since 2001, if not before, that one potential type of "terrorist" threat is CYBER-sabotage. Yes, US party operatives and pesky teen-agers could have distorted the data in some races in this election, but so could Al Quaeda operatives. If we don't take major steps NOW to ensure the security of our voting systems -- and by "security," I DON'T mean locking out reporters and letting a private corporation or one party count all the votes -- there's more at stake here than just the 2004 Presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: dianavan Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:43 PM How could the Democrats overlook the possibility of cyber-sabotage? Why did they allow such a thing to happen? Thats the part I don't understand. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Peace Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:47 PM There's always the possibility that in a 'greater' agenda, it mattered not one jot or tittle which of the two parties won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: dianavan Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:39 PM brucie - I am afraid you are absolutely right. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:55 PM I'm afraid you're right, too, Brucie. What I don't understand is why the political parties -- especially the Democrats (after 2000) -- didn't make this a key campaign focus. The mind boggles! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Frank Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM The question remains about the suppression of the vote as well as the manipulation of the machines and by the denial of the leading GOP governors in Ohio and Florida. The Democrats are not in power. Many of them are still in a state of denial and afraid of being called "crybabies" by the GOP supporters. I am a crybaby because I believe our country's democratic process is going down the tubes. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:19 AM Ohio has been pretty much forced to count all votes, including provisional ballots, before certifying their results in a few days. Secretary of State Kenneth "Katherine" Blackwell was SO sure most of the provisional ballots (from people "challenged" by -- mostly -- Republican operatives at the polls) would be thrown out, but it turns out 81% of those ballots were legitimate, by Blackwell's own criteria. The money has been raised for a recount, which will happen after the initial count has been certified. BlackBoxVoting.org is reporting a lockdown of Volusia County election records ( Votergate.tv ) because of poll tape discrepancies, stonewalling, etc. CONSUMER PROTECTION FOR ELECTIONS Harris's organization has launched a fraud audit into Florida. Investigators Bev Harris, Andy Stephenson, and Kathleen Wynne will initiate hand counts on selected counties that have not fully complied with our BlackBoxVotin.org's Freedom of Information request. In addition to the official Ohio recount filed for by David Cobb (Green Party) and Michael Badnarik (Libertarian Party), Black Box Voting is also launching a fraud audit in Ohio. "Latest Katherine Blackwell outrage: Failure to properly account for provisional ballots, and refusing to allow citizens to see the pollbooks." Bev Harris Black Box Voting is also investigating what appears to be widespread vote manipulation in New Mexico and corrupt voting processes in one county in Georgia and election fraud in Pima County Arizona and in the state of Nevada. Frank, you're right that the suppression of the vote also needs to be investigated and publicized. It won't change the outcome of any elections for this year, but legal action needs to be taken and criminal prosecutions pursued. Some of the things that were done to keep people -- mostly minorities and lower income people -- from voting are felonies. We do need a lot more "crybabies!" Like Ralph Nader. Nader is filing to audit Diebold machines in New Hampshire. He says several elements make voting machines "probative" for investigation, according to Nader: proprietary ownership, secret code, vested interests, a high-value reward, and lack of any real consequences, or likelihood of getting caught, for vote manipulation. Nader says "We are told that shenanigans are just politics" "Well, it's not politics. It's taking away people's votes." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ebbie Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM This just out: "The three counties where the voting anomalies were most prevalent were also the most heavily Democratic: Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade, respectively. Statistical patterns in counties that did not have e-touch voting machines predict a 28,000 vote decrease in President Bush's support in Broward County; machines tallied an increase of 51,000 votes - a net gain of 81,000 for the incumbent. President Bush should have lost 8,900 votes in Palm Beach County, but instead gained 41,000 - a difference of 49,900. He should have gained only 18,400 votes in Miami-Dade County but saw a gain of 37,000 - a difference of 19,300 votes. "For the sake of all future elections involving electronic voting - someone must investigate and explain the statistical anomalies in Florida," says Professor Michael Hout. "We're calling on voting officials in Florida to take action." "The research team is comprised of doctoral students and faculty in the UC Berkeley sociology department, and led by Sociology Professor Michael Hout, a nationally-known expert on statistical methods and a member of the National Academy of Sciences and the UC Berkeley Survey Research Center. Click for Smoke Alarm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: DougR Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:09 PM And the beat goes on. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ebbie Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:27 PM Dear Douglas Richards, Please read those links. Thank you, Elva Bontrager |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Once Famous Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM Dear Elva Bontrager Please eat smokie links. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Amos Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:14 PM A really dramatic tale of altered records and chicanery in the face of Freedom of Information requests by the brave folks at Black Box.org can be found at this page. Enjoy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM Woahhh... Amos. Very interesting. Thanks for posting that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Metchosin Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:33 PM Noticed too, that a Senator from the US, sent to the Ukraine to observe the voting there has declared the election in that country a fraud because the exit polls didn't match the vote tally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Don Firth Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:22 PM Christine Gregoire (Democrat) and Dino Rossi (Republican) are locked in the closest race for the office of governor in Washington State's history. With only a few thousand votes separating them, Washington State law requires a recount. For several days, Gregoire lead Rossi by a couple thousand votes. As of this morning, Rossi (Rep) is leading Gregoire (Dem) by 262 votes. With many thousands of votes still to be counted, Republicans are trying to stop the recount at this point. Story HERE. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: dianavan Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:13 PM C'mon Christine! d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Once Famous Date: 22 Nov 04 - 09:46 PM The Bulls are 0-8. What a shame for a once great franchise. BTW, everyone, did you hear Kerry lost? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:46 PM We'll see, Martin. dianavan, I have to admit, I'll be happy with either candidate winning if it can be demonstrated that all of the votes have been counted fairly. I just want an honest election system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Nerd Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:43 AM For those who don't bother to read links, Amos posted a report showing that in Volusa county, Florida, election officials have been destroying and throwing away original, signed polling place tapes (on which vote tallies were recorded) and replacing them with false ones, which seemed to show more votes for Bush and other Republicans. The Freedom of Information Act request enacted by Bev Harris of blackbox voting is causing them to panic. Rather than turn over the real tapes, they are printing out new, falsified ones and destroying the originals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,2BAD Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:09 AM I heard they were picking their nose and eating it. This comes from the ihaterepublicans.org website and constitues a report. No charges, judge or jury required for a conviction. 2BAD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Peace Date: 23 Nov 04 - 01:17 AM . . . and EATing it? Aaaaaargh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Algore Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM Martin The Bulls didn't really lose those 8 games, the scores were fraudulently recorded in a right wing republican conspiracy. Those games were stolen, and we need an investigation and a recount to get the truth out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:53 PM Vote counting on going in Ohio. What I don't get is the smarmy superior attitude that says "Votes don't matter, only winners matter.". Does the phrase "Weimar Republic " not mean anything to you? Is your love of moral values powerful enough to make you amoral? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:54 PM They don't believe in democracy, Amos. They're anti-American and anti-democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,2BAD Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM Mr Nader demanded a hand recount in NH which was just finished. He gained 10 votes!!!!!!! In New Hampshire, independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader's requested 11-precinct hand recount ended with results changing little from initial tallies. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apelection_story.asp?category=1131&slug=Election%20Challenges 2BAD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:11 PM Nader wasn't looking to gain votes, and he did not expect to gain any. He was looking into possible voting irregularities. I know you wouldn't want any of our elections to be tainted by any possibility of cheating, GUEST,2BAD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 Dec 04 - 12:10 PM That it's taking the Greens and the Independants to question the vote tally is most depressing, but I'm glad they're doing it. Screw Kerry, I lost what little respect for him I had when he conceded so quickly, and I don't give a rat's ass what his reasons were. This whole process needs to be pulled apart before the next election nightmare. ..xx..e Published Tuesday, November 30, 2004 by the New York Daily News Ohio Tally Fit for Ukraine by Juan Gonzalez It has been a month now and we still don't have a clear count of the votes for our own presidential race from the state of Ohio. For those who may have forgotten, Ohio supposedly assured George W. Bush a second term in the White House - only the most important job on the planet. The morning after the election, we were told Bush was ahead of John Kerry in that state's unofficial count by 139,000 votes, or 2.5%. At the time there were 155,000 uncounted provisional ballots and an unknown number of overseas ballots, but Kerry concluded they would not produce enough of a margin to erase his deficit, so he promptly conceded. At the same time, given the bitter Democratic memories of the 2000 Florida fiasco, he assured his supporters he would fight to have every vote properly counted this time. Within a few days, other problems began to show up in Ohio's preliminary tally. We learned, for example, that an additional 93,000 voters had gone to the polls yet machines had registered no preference of theirs for President. Only a manual recount can tell us for sure what happened to those 93,000 ballots. Then, red-faced election officials in Franklin County admitted a computer error on Election Night had tallied 4,258 votes for Bush in a precinct where only 638 people voted. That correction alone will drop Bush's margin by 3,620. And now Daily News reporter Larry Cohler-Esses and I have uncovered some more unusual vote totals, this time in black neighborhoods of Cleveland. Those results are from the precinct-by-precinct tallies released by the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections, where Cleveland is located. In the 4th Ward on Cleveland's East Side, for example, two fringe presidential candidates did surprisingly well. In precinct 4F, located at Benedictine High School on Martin Luther King Jr. Drive, Kerry received 290 votes, Bush 21 and Michael Peroutka, candidate of the ultra-conservative anti-immigrant Constitutional Party, an amazing 215 votes! That many black votes for Peroutka is about as likely as all those Jewish votes for Buchanan in Florida's Palm Beach County in 2000. In precinct 4N, also at Benedictine High School, the tally was Kerry 318, Bush 21, and Libertarian Party candidate Michael Badnarik 163. Back in 2000, the combined third-party votes in those two precincts - including the Nader vote - was 8. Cuyahoga, like most of Ohio's 88 counties, uses punch-card balloting. "That's terrible, I can't believe it," said City Councilman Kenneth Johnson, who has represented the 4th Ward since 1980. "It's obviously a malfunction with the machines." But Peroutka and Badnarik polled unusually well in a few other black precincts. In the 8th Ward's G precinct at Cory United Methodist Church, for instance, Badnarik tallied 51 votes - nearly three times better than Bush's 19. And in I precinct at the same church, Peroutka was the choice on 27 ballots, three times more than Bush's 8. In 2000, independent candidates received 9 votes from both precincts. The same pattern showed up in 10 Cleveland precincts in which Badnarik and Peroutka received nearly 700 votes between them. In virtually all those precincts, Kerry's vote was lower than Al Gore's in 2000, even though there was a record turnout in the black community this time, and even though blacks voted overwhelmingly for Kerry. If this same pattern held true in other cities around Ohio, then quite possibly thousands of votes meant for Kerry somehow ended up in the tallies of the two independent candidates. So far, however, precinct-by-precinct results have not been posted by boards of elections in other counties, but by Thursday all official results are due. On Monday, Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell will certify Ohio's results and then a manual recount will be requested by the Green and Libertarian parties. The Badnarik and Peroutka surge was not the only unusual occurrence in Cleveland. Also unusual was the drop in the Democratic vote in scores of precincts compared to 2000. But more on that next time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: John Routledge Date: 03 Dec 04 - 04:25 PM How about following Ukraine's lead.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:27 PM Declaring the count void? I doubt that would hunt as far as the front door! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: freda underhill Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:08 AM re The U.S. House Committee on the Judiciary is scheduling a public congressional forum on voting irregularities in Ohio on December 8.. Wikipedia has a good analysis of what has happened, its constantly being updated: wikipedia onU.S presidential election controversy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,2BAD Date: 04 Dec 04 - 10:49 PM If every vote is going to be recounted where the race was close, how about Wisconsin and other close states? They were way closer that Ohio and Florida. Kerry got only 22,823 more votes than Bush in Wisconsin. Kerry got only 9,171 more votes than Bush in New Hampshire The margin in Ohio was 13,6483 The margin in Florida was 38,1147 2BAD |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Thomas Date: 04 Dec 04 - 11:42 PM "No mortal can foresee in favor of which party the election will go. There is one supreme consolation. That our people have so innate a spirit of order & obedience to the law, so religious an acquiescence in the will of the majority, and deep conviction of the fundamental importance of the principle that the will of the majority ought to be submitted to the minority, that a majority of a single vote, as at the last election, produces as absolute & quiet a submission as a unanimous vote" Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William Short March 26, 1800 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: Genie Date: 05 Dec 04 - 12:04 AM It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was electronic "cheating" on BOTH sides -- IF the Democrats had any access to the source codes of the voting machines. However, in many cases, the source code is PROPRIETARY to the machine manufacturers, most of whom, as far as I know, tend to favor the Republicans. More to the point, if the private companies own the software, who knows WHICH way they may have rigged thing? I'm not too dismayed that Kerry "conceded," though. It's not binding, and it probably allowed the Democrats to "fly under the radar" in their recounting efforts. Following what Bev Harris et al. have encountered in Florida, we see the lenghts some party operatives will go to to avoid a fair recount when their backs are to the wall. If Kerry/Edwards had followed in Gore's footsteps and held off for a recount, the media would have been in "crisis" mode ever since Nov. 3, bewailing how our poor country was being held hostage to having to wait a few weeks to find out who won! (We actually need to GET OVER this insane sense of urgency about having to have our election results in 24 hours! Washington state isn't going to know for sure who their new governor is for another week or two, yet I expect they'll survive! Same thing for San Diego in their mayoral race.) Y'know what bugs me, though, every bit as much as the posibble behind-the-scenes vote count distortion? It's the THEFT IN PLAIN SIGHT that's tolerated by the media and the public at large! We all saw, on Nov. 2 and 3 -- and even earlier in Florida -- how a lot of people were having to stand on line for hours on end to vote! We also knew this wasn't true everywhere. Even if it were ubiquitous, it would be WRONG, but when it obviously happens pretty much only in lower-income urban areas, a huge RED FLAG should go up in the eyes of the press and the public. Instead, the TV news covered this sort of story with a "Wow! Isn't it great that people care that much about this election?!!" type attitude. THAT shouldn't have been THE big story! THE story is "Why the heck does ANYBODY in the USA in 2004 HAVE to wait more than an hour to vote? And WHY is it harder for urban (largely minority and/or lower-income) residents to vote than for rural and suburban (mostly white and/or more affluent) voters to do so? Perhaps even more important: HOW MANY voters were, in effect DISENFRANCHISED by such insurmountable obstacles as having to wait on line several hours to vote? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: CarolC Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:30 PM If every vote is going to be recounted where the race was close, how about Wisconsin and other close states? They were way closer that Ohio and Florida. By all means. If there were any voting irregularities reported in Wisconsin and other close states, let's make sure the voting process in those states was honest and valid. The important thing isn't so much who wins. The important thing is how they win. What we want is democracy, and open, honest, and verifiable elections. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: GUEST,Frank Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:42 PM Fact: Diebold systems were presided over by Walden O'Dell, a Republican who stated that he would win the election for Bush in Ohio. Fact: All three systems are owned and controlled by Republicans. Fact: Ken Blackwell is a leading Ohio Republican fox in charge of the henhouse. Not to be confused with Fox Network being in charge of the media Republican henhouse. "Unfair and unbalanced". Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising From: freda underhill Date: 06 Dec 04 - 08:31 AM Hundreds Gather At Ohio Statehouse To Demand Recount Of Votes; Election Day Is Over But The Contest Is Not (12/05/04) Reported by: A.P.;12/5/2004 11:54:01 AM cincinnati.com About 400 people gathered at the Ohio Statehouse to demand a recount of Ohio's presidential election, or at least a look into Election Day irregularities around the state. The crowd listened to speakers who claimed Ohio voters were the victims of a fraud that took votes from John Kerry and gave them to President Bush. One group says it plans to contest the election in the Ohio Supreme Court and that the fraud details would come out in its court filing, expected Monday. Ohio was the state that the election hung on, and Kerry would have won the presidency had he carried the state's 20 electoral votes. He conceded the day after the election, saying there was not enough provisional and other ballots to swing the results his way. |
