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Again, nothing about American folk music
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Subject: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:00 PM I've brought this up before and feel the need to again. There is virtually nothing right now in the music threads relating to American folk music or American folk musicians. Mudcat continues to transcend into a site more for the British folk music scene. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM At the moment I have a Lyrics Request in for an American ballad, which Bob Deckman is helping me with. Why not remedy the situation as you see it, Martin? A |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Leadfingers Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:16 PM Surely a forum like this is dependant on what interests the members (and guests) at any particular time . And perhaps Britain has a more vibrant folk scene than the USA does at present ! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Peace Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:17 PM What's the ballad, Amos? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:17 PM Dang, Martin (as Bobert would say,) you got that right. For whatever reasons, the majority of music threads are about English folk songs and events. That used to bother me, until I figured that the number of particular types of threads just reflect the make-up of Mudcat, and Catters interests. That's awright with me. Now, Martin, my old man, what you and I and Bobert and others need to do is to start some Amurican threads that don't have Bush in the title. Seems like Amuricans just grouse about politics and English folks talk about music. (Don't you just love over-generalizations?) If you scroll down a little, Martin, you will find a new thread that was started in honor of you and Leadfingers. Hands across the waters. It's titled Amurican Harmonies. Maybe you can share some observations about harmonies in bluegrass and how they differ from harmonies in old-time bands like Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers. 100% Amurican, Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:30 PM Martin - I agree
A seperate part of the page - that stays active for a week - up at the top of everything else. A third division of the same thing.
Most American's appear to be more involved in other things - and check in occasionally - some excellent folk-music topics are lost in the chatter.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: chris nightbird childs Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM Jerry is absolutely right when he says that Americans talk politics and the English talk about music. If some of you have forgotten this IS a music forum. Specifically Folk Music, which there is plenty of in the States, but as usual, some people forget about the music in there own here. Politics, and War, etc. are thrown at Americans by the Media all their lives, and this could be blinding to some that don't realize that there is more to life than what they see on T.V... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: artbrooks Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM Well, perhaps I'm counting wrong, but it seems to me that, as I write this, at least half of the threads in the top fifteen or so that are about music (rather than things like conquering stage fright) are about "American" music (whatever that is). |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: RWilhelm Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:59 AM Martin, I have been a member of Mudcat for at least six years and I have to say that American folk music has always been well represented. You didn't specify; what are you interested in, ballads, old-timey, blues, ragtime, folk-boom, folk-rock, singer-songwriter? Let me know and I will point you to the threads. It's just a fact that, for obvious reasons, there is more English folk music than American. English folk music is probably the largest single influence on American folk. You can't talk about American folk music very long without referencing the British Isles. By the late nineteenth century the influences were going both ways. Mudcat is, I'm sure, the largest single repository of information on the folk music of England, Ireland, Scotland, Australia, and America, because they cannot be separated. If you want to talk about American folk music, start a thread. I guarantee you will get discussion of American music. Earl |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Ellenpoly Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:14 AM Chris, please not to forget that much of American folk music is BASED on politics. Not all, as there are fine songs about love and whaling as well (just joking, folks, I'm out of my depths here already) but it might explain why the Yanks go off so often onto other aspects of life, especially the political ones. They are related, but sometimes in a roundabout way. I'm always wishing someone will get creative (and they do on occasion here, as with the Jessica thread) and turn whatever the subject is, into a good protest (or otherwise) song. The best way to be sure the subject is continually covered is by being one of the those who brings it up, yes? ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Nerd Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:36 AM At this moment the top 5 threads are about American music. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: chris nightbird childs Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:33 AM Good, that's very good. I've done my part then... : ) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: George Papavgeris Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:58 AM And there's the Songlinks II project also... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:04 AM I rather agree with Martin. Its hard to get a picture of the grassroots scene over there from Mudcat. Come on you yanks, spill the beans - what's happening....... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:11 AM Time might be an element in what is at the top of the page. I've noticed that few are awake when I am. Despite what the posting time shown is, it is 10.10pm here in NZ. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:14 AM That last guest is Gurney. Spybot or Adaware seems to have removed my Cookie. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: George Papavgeris Date: 15 Nov 04 - 06:56 AM So, come on Ammies, get posting. Though I have to admit to a little private chuckle when I saw the first post. Martin, who regularly calls other whingers, whingeing himself! (Don't refute it, Martin mate, your sentence about "Mudcat transcending into a site more for the British folk music scene" kinda gives it away). But he's right nevertheless. SO get posting. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Linael Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:30 AM Or beg the Admins for Regional Sections Linael |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Dave Bryant Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:46 AM Perhaps one of the reasons that there seems to be more British threads than American is that the UK folk scene (thanks to it's relative geological concentration) tends to be more tightly knit than the US one. Most UK Catters know quite a lot of others and therefore we tend to use the cat as way of talking to friends - that's one of the reasons that we often seem to be so rude to each other - it's usually rather "tongue in the cheek". Most American catters who come over here are very surprised at just how many british catters they end up meeating. Anyway Americans, the balls in your court - make more postings - don't complain at the fact that we tend to enjoy using this wonderful facility that Max has provided us with. Also remember that folk music is international and that plenty of "American Music" has it's roots in music from the UK and other parts of the world. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:02 AM I think there's also a difference in what US and UK people perceive as 'Folk'. I gather that many UK folk-enthusiasts may not regard, for instance, Emmylou Harris as a folk artiste because she's viewed here as 'Country' (which seems to be like garlic to a vampire where many UK folkies are concerned - not by me though, I hasten to add!), whereas people in the US might do. From that aspect, UK members might not join in a US thread simply because they don't know the artistes being discussed, or don't regard them as pukka folk-artistes?? Maybe, perhaps?? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Maryrrf Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:55 AM Um, am I missing something or is thread content dependent upon what members themselves post???? No point in criticizing Mudcat for not having more American threads - why not just post some???? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:01 AM I've started a fair share of threads in the music section over the last couple of years, and I'd guess that more than half aren't geographically focused... they'll be like the one I started on rhythm, or musical influences. The songwriting threads aren't specific to a country, and many other music threads are just about music. I started a thread in response to Martin's observation titled Amurican harmony, but I really wanted to hear from people about different types of harmony, American or otherwise. There certainly are more threads about events in England than America, and that's understandable. There was just a thread about the NOMAD festival here in Connecticut, and it's as remote to our Catters on the West Coast as it is to our English and Ozland friends. Threads like overcoming stage fright, and others currently running aren't American or English. They're human. Dang Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Wesley S Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM Martin - I'm not sure, but I think you came to the Mudcat not long after Rick Fielding passed away. If you didn't know him Rick was Canadian and started some of the best threads about American music. If you look at some of the threads he started you'll find some very interesting information indeed. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:31 AM I think that the best threads start with intelligent questions, backed up with a bit of intelligent information in the original post. It takes a bit to come up with something that's interesting to talk about. You can't just request lyrics that are already in the DT, and expect to start much of anything. The good threads come when the time is right. You can't push more emphasis on American music, just by demanding it. You have to actively involve yourself in a community exploration. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Grab Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM To list the threads right now featuring American folk music:- So not many threads relating to American folk music, no... only about 20%! Hell, that's a national disgrace, ain't it?! ;-) IIRC, Mudcat's a discussion and information board. If no-one feels like discussing a subject that day, or if no-one needs information or has new information on a subject, that subject drops off the board for that day. Why is this a problem? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM Puhleeeeeeease. Many of these have either popped up after or as a result of my observation. The ones that were already here were at best, of little interest to many. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:29 PM For God sake someone shove the pacifier or dummy[uk] in this perpetual whingers gob. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:10 PM "The ones that were already here were at best, of little interest to many" ONLY in YOUR opinion - stop moaning and groaning and post something sensible yourself, and try and do it without swearing, now theirs a challenge you are not capable of completing. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM Re UK versus USA folk music, so many of the old "American" songs have their roots in songs from the UK (or other lands). One can't study one without the other. After his 'little interest' remark, one wonders what fragment of "American folk" Martin Gibson is interested in. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:36 PM What the hell is a "whinger"? Something from a hockey team? I think the last few months has seen an incredible amount of conversation in the U.S. about our election. This is not a Mudcat phenomenon, it happened all over. Hobbies such as folk music became secondary to most people. I do think that there is less interest in conversation about American folk music. I just attended NERFA (North East Regional Folk Alliance) where the singer-songwriters outnumbered the traditionalists. Good thing? Bad thing? It may not be a question that can be answered. I feel there is room for both. I don't want to drift into that seemlingly endless discussion of what can be done to make traditional music more appealing. Frankly, if it happens it will happen. One more sidenote - I did hear one great "label" this weekend. There was an amazing group called The Wiyos who do a really nice Americana presentation. Sort of old-timey, sort of vaudeville, sort of old-fashioned, sort of contemporary. They call their music "oldternative". Maybe the answer to Martins original quesiton is we should spend a little less time talking and more time playing! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:37 PM Well there you have it |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Chris Green Date: 15 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM "Whinger" pronounced with a soft G, from the verb "to whinge". OED defines it as "to complain persistently and peevishly." |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: MartinRyan Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:04 PM One of the reasons I continue to hang about this place is because it so often shows up the links between American song/music and "British" (for which read Irish, Scottish and occasionally Welsh)music. The odd insight into the impact of German, Scandinavian and other roots is, if anything, even more welcome. The fun bit comes from picking up the reverse process! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:05 PM Must be a Brit thing! We have "whiners" here in the U.S.! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Chris Green Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM We have whiners too. "Whinger" is a rather more irritating whiner! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM ... hence the extra "g"!! I like it! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Steve-o Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:21 PM I agree, MG- way too many whingers gobs going on here lately. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:30 PM Martin - what kind of American folk does interest you? What threads have we had that typify what you think we should be doing? I will admit that Mudcat has a bias toward traditional music and against singer-songwriter stuff. Some have criticized us for that, but I'm sure glad we have our traditional bias. I would also say that we emphasize the songs and the performance of songs, and de-emphasize performers. I see there's a thread active now that complains that nobody ever talks about Leadbelly. If you look on the crosslinks at the top of that thread, you'll see we've talked about him an awful lot. When you direct your discussion toward performers, there's only so much you can say - but nonetheless, today's Leadbelly thread has turned into a pretty good discussion. In general, I'm satisfied with the mix of discussion topics here. Yeah, I suppose I'd like to see more of an American presence, but I think that's the kind of thing that comes and goes. But anyhow, Martin, I'd like to know what it is that you're looking for. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:52 PM traditionally its us Brits that are the whingers. we go to Australia and become whingeing poms. This is a well observed and attested phenomena. Perhaps you are becoming a bit like us Martin .....a sort of trad influence. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 15 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM we could teach you some songs if you like ....theres this one called the Dowie dens of Yarrow, that would keep you occupied for a while. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM Whinge is listed in Webster's Collegiate. A very old word (12th c) in English. Just didn't travel well across the Atlantic. Enough of this digression. Several of us have asked what folk music Martin would like to see discussed. ?? I would like to see more on the Spanish folk music of the American Southwest. I know not too many are interested in that, but I think it should be included here. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Grab Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:41 AM To quote: Puhleeeeeeease! Many of these have either popped up after or as a result of my observation. So you interpreted a natural breather as the end of the world for discussions about American folk music - and then you use the fact that more posts about American folk appear as "proof" that you were right? Nice one. I see a promising career in politics ahead of you. As for these threads being the *result* of your "observation" - how do you manage to walk past mirrors? Someone, quick, ram a solar panel up his arsehole - if the sun's shining out of it then we might as well get some use out of him! Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:23 AM I'm sure there are alot of aspects of the American folk scene we would love to hear about. Favourite folk clubs, favourite recording studios, personalities on the scene we haven't heard of.... the post gig scene, how the lesser luminaries of the scene hustle a living........encounters with anybody on The Blues Project Album (probably my favourite folk album), interraction with the blues and country scene,.... theres a whole continent we wouldn't mind hearing about! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM I'm with WLD. We're not all folk-nazis. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Nerd Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:19 PM You can't fool us, boys. You are the Lord Sidcups of folk music, dressed in identical black footer-bags! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Arnie Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:40 PM Geez, I guess the Brits are a bit more computer savvy than the average American folkie like Martin Gibson. Perhaps the Yanks should be worried that their music isn't really the center of the Mudcat world (or the real world for that matter). I know - the Brits are busy playing with their computers and the Yanks are busy playing with their ______ (fill in appropriate word). That's it! Rest assured Martin Gibson - the downward trend may continue. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: YorkshireYankee Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM Perhaps one reason there are more threads about the UK music scene is that the US doesn't seem to have someone who posts numerous threads along the lines of: "waHt od yuo think of kATe Rusby?" and "XYZ flok cLub". Obviously, we USians need someone to fill in that tragic gap. Since you are so patriotic MG, perhaps you could do the honors? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Folkiedave Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:10 PM Just posted to American Carols - go take a look!! Dave Eyre |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:54 PM Sorry Martin, at Wal-mart's insistence, all American folk threads have been outsourced to China. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:00 AM At least now we will be more oriented than in the past. Art |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:33 AM Oh, gees, Art, that was disgusting! Somebody open a window! -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:59 AM just a suggestion- but how about an events section? [like we now have general stuff, and BS, how about General stuff, BS, and Events? but events section is split, so folk only see events that apply to them, ie UK folk only see UK events? then US folk won't get fed up of reading about UK sessions and festivals. Then again loads of folk are travelling to different countries now, ie UK folk are going to Getaway etc, and US folk are visiting UK for sessions and festivals. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Jonjo Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:25 AM "waHt od yuo think of kATe Rusby?" I think she plays guitar, and sings, at about the same level as the literacy in that particular post - limited. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Jim Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:32 AM (Tongue-in cheek) Wasn't most of it English export, but then re-packaged and re-exported back to the UK? Some of it was smuggled out in the early 60's of course. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: YorkshireYankee Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:34 PM Sir jOhn, I like that idea (although it's not up to me, of course). If the Events section was split into subsections by country, then people could read/ignore whichever sections they wished. Of course, I don't know how much of a hassle it would be to set things up like that, and you would also run into the question(s) of which countries/areas consistently have enough items of interest to merit their own subsection – for example, we don't get many posts about events in China; should it have its own subcategory, or go in an "other" category? What about Sweden? Germany? It could get even trickier... should both Irelands be included in the UK section, or would that upset some people? (Personally, Australia, Canada, Europe, UK, US and Other sections makes sense to me, but I'd be surprised if everyone was happy with that.) The other thing that occurs to me is, how long would it be before people start complaining along the lines of "Again, nothing about Hawaiian folk music," or "I'm in California, what do I care about events going on in New York? Why can't you list states/counties/provinces separately?" Followed by "Why can't you list cities separately?" etc. Thing is, I do actually quite like your idea; it's just that I can all too easily imagine the various headaches it could inspire as well. Of course, they wouldn't actually be my headaches, 'cos (as I said above) it's not actually up to me, but I do sympathise with whoever's headache they would be... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Jimmy Twitcher Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:56 PM Well, I for one enjoy reading the Brit threads, even though I don't post much AND I'm out here in California and rather unlikely to be directly affected by any of it. I see us all as one community, regardless of geographic location. Just my $.02. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: PoppaGator Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:08 PM I agree -- leave the music forum intact. I read about 1/4 to 1/3 of the threads, and sometimes I *choose* to look in on UK events even though I'm elsewhere, in the US. Anything you're not interested in, you can ignore. Not too difficult, what? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:23 PM I very seldom read any of the UK threads. I find them uninteresting. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:31 PM We all suffer from a bit of nationalism. That is human nature. The threads are fairly even if you ask me. This is the internet, not an intranet. Not many threads about Canadian folk music though, and let's not talk about those Poles!!! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Cluin Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:33 PM What part of the US seems to have the largest concentration of folk musicians, fans, and/or afficianados? New England? California? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Cluin Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM Polish folk music, Ron? I agree. There is a dearth of threads here on that subject. ;) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:38 PM Cluin, it would be hard to say. Chicago has a pretty good audience with the Old Town School being here. They are quite diverse in their concert offerings and programs and I know some people involved there. but I guess sometimes I'm more interested in what is going on in Nashville. It is Music City, USA you know. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:47 PM How do you know they're uninteresting if you don't read them. None of which excuses you from coming up with some scintillating news and gossip about whats going on down your end. As SJ and myself both said, we would be agog to hear what goes on over there. maybe someone would take it on to write a North American roundup every month. Just stuff that you hear and read about in magazines, or chatting to your mates. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:01 PM There are folk music enclaves throughout the country. New England is vibrant. New York/NJ, while close in proximity, has it's own scene. It's hard to say one area has a larger concentration, just different concentrations and different definitions of "folk". |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:08 PM weelittledrummer I don't have to read them to know they are boring to me. I am not at all into Celtic/Irish/English type of folk music and really don't care for what goes on in places like Sidmouth or Hull. Nashville, yes. NY yes. Chicago for sure. North american bluegrass festivals, bring it on. Maybe Americans are more into actually doing it then talking about it. I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Steve Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:18 PM "Maybe Americans are more into actually doing it then talking about it. I don't know." I feel sure English and Americans and indeed other nationalities have a similar approach both doing and talking about music. There are various threads planning and promoting events. We are lucky I suppose in that we are closer geographically. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:55 PM Yes, but we have a bigger country to explore! But none of that planning, promoting of American music seems to happen at this place. why do you think this is so? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Peace Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM What place, Martin? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Dani Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:30 PM Well, if my little neighborhood is a microcosm, I have to say you're onto something here, Martin. We've had a tough time getting a lively local sing going, though there are plenty of old-time and Irish instrumental jams, and plenty of performances. When I met the Shellbacks at the Getaway last year I was SO jealous. They make music everywhere they go! Pubs and clubs and on buses and planes! And not just the Shellbacks, it (singing, and 'folk' music) seems to still be part of the culture over there, while we Americans (mostly; present company excluded) sit on our asses and pay someone else to make music for us. Kind of reminds me of our political system, now that I'm thinking of it. Dani |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:00 PM I grew up listening to American folk music. The best resource around at the time was the Library of Congress field recordings, much of what was done by the Lomaxes. Since then, the definition has changed by those who came in through the door of traditional music and went in different directions. I found that soon the academic and ethnomusicological side of American folk music was at once stuffy and fascinating. The music itself divorced from scholarly pronouncements about it was vibrant and alive. The Harry Smith Anthology of Folkways Records as well as the Lib.OfC. provided a foundation for interest. The big problem is that the academics and musicologists couldn't get their heads around the idea that in order for the interest in this music to survive, it had to be participatory. For the "scalp collectors" this proved to be unsatisfactory because it disturbed the "specimen" in it's natural habitat. I gave up deciding I was a folk singer. I wasn't from an indigenous area whereby my music could be collected so I became a working musician/singer. I still maintain a great appreciation for the African-American and Anglo-American traditions as well as other ethnic areas which are not explored much. Much of this music was never meant for the concert stage. Some of it spilled over into professional show business. What I think has happened is that those who came through the popularization of folk music in the late 50's and early 60's broadened the definition to fit their contributions as singer/songwriters, pop folkies and protest singers. I think a similar thing has happened in the British Isles and unfortunately for American folkies as well as British Isles, (Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Northern England) much of all of this has become kind of self-conscious. Now we have a polarity between the so-called "traddies" and the others. One way around this dilemma I think is to start a conversation about stylistic aspects of lyrics and music as applied to the accepted traditional forms. It would be interesting to talk about the blues influences in bluegrass (Monroe) for instance or the development of the city blues from the rural blues (McKinley Morganfield and Lightning Hopkins) and also how much of the early blues found it's way into urban rock through Sunn Records and through Led Zeppelin via Page or Stones. It would be interesting to talk about how early jazz from the 1920's found it's way into the Piedmont picking styles of blues musicians and what really defines and differentiates the Delta blues. Vocal styles of the traditional rural areas of the Anglo-American tradition and how it varies in its performance from the African- American manner of communal participation would be interesting. Contrast for example the stringent approach of the Sacred Harp hymn singing to the Black gospel looser approach. The crossover from the traditional string band music of the 20's to the contemporary bluegrass music would be instructive to discuss. Oddly, many musicians in the British Isles seem to know more about these things then the average American folkie. Maybe because there is a propensity for academia in the Brit approach although that might be generalizing too much. I would welcome these kind of discussions more. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:13 PM If you read the threads, you will notice that the majority of the UK posts seem to be about who is going to be attending what session. During the summer months, I think there is a lot of USA conversation about who is attending what festival. Unfortunately, we do not have a folk club scene that operates like those in the UK. Our "clubs" are really coffeehouse that usually meet monthly and the audience is there to watch. The UK scene tends to involve more participation, and the folk clubs meet regularly. We do not have a pub scene that matches what occurs in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:20 PM This place, brucie. Ron, does that mean there is not as much of a folk music culture here in the US as there is in the UK? maybe it's because more people here have cable TV? But at least are livers might be in better shape. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:40 PM No Martin, there is a large folk music culture here, and it may be even larger for a variety of reasons. The main thing is that both cultures are different. It also depends on how you define "folk". Here in the U.S., the term incorporates a wider variety of styles - largely because our country was built on a variety of cultures. Bluegrass, blues, sea music, cowboy ballads, Appalachian ballads, urban folk, singer-songwriter, ethnic music and I'm sure I've left out a dozen styles - all make up "folk music". Now, I don't want to turn this into a discussion of what constitutes folk, but I do think our definition is a bit broader than what is considered "folk" in the UK. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:43 PM I kind of figured that true. If you were to see what the future concert schedule looks like for the Old Town School of Folk Music here in Chicago, it is extremely diverse. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Peace Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM Maybe too it has to do with how much/how deeply people wanh to go into the subject. I notice that above the line people respond to any and all threads that have to do with music--any kind of music. I kinda call the music I do folk, but it isn't, really. At least it doesn't fit the definition of what most people would call folk. Much of it is original, some by other established writers and some more traditional. A typical set for me might go like this: For a loud audience, I tend to start with a soft song, and for a quiet audience something more up tempo. Come Across--(one of mine) Walkin' Down the Line Go, Lassie, Go (WMT)--trad (audience participation) Sheila--Tommy Roe Request from audience-- Love Minus Zero, No Limit Jericho--(one of mine) Get Together--(Youngbloods)--(audience participation) (If there is an encore, I'll go with an up tempo audience request.) So, that doesn't leave me being very easy to categorize. If it's a three-set night, I get lots of my own in the second set and a few in the third, with audience requests and maybe a piano piece for the helluvit. What that makes me I don't know. So, when I have something of value to contribute to music threads, I try to. A deep discussion of bluegrass, country or blues leaves me lost. I don't know if this helps with your question, Martin. I hope so. PS When I come across good songs by contemporary writers, I work 'em out and incorporate them into various sets at various times. BM |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:53 PM What the "f" are you babbling about brucie? Read-heed then post to the appropriate threads. Joe - PLEASE - can't we have some sort of a DUI-mouse-maze to keep the drunks out of the upper sections? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Peace Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:58 PM Dear GUEST. Kiss, kiss. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Peace Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:02 PM Sorry, Martin. Before that rude individual stuck his snout into the conversation, I was trying to say that people who do try to talk about it--American folk music--often meet people like the GUEST and turn away from even trying to contribute anything. It is a snobbishness that one occasionally encounters here, and that's most unfortunate. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:19 PM Oh, I am well aware of it, brucie. The only folk music I ever liked was the good old fashioned good time stuff. Give me striped shirts and smooth 3 part harmonies and people singing along having fun. I let the warbling and braying stay with the so called traditionalist snobs. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Azizi Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:37 PM One of the reasons why I come here is to learn from others. To that end, I find some of the discussions about the current folk scene in the UK to be interesting. One example is the thread about Morris Dancers. Perhaps we have Morris dancers in the United States, but I don't know about it. With regard to the folk scene in the UK, I'd be interested in hearing about the folk scene among people of color in that nation, in particular people of African descent {Africans, people from the Caribbeans and straight out British Black people}. I am assuming it is not the same as that featured in these mudcat posts... And why is it that we {"United Staters"} can point to the very significant contributions of African Americans to our nation's and the world's traditional music, but there doesn't appear to be the same ability to trace people of Africans descent's contributions to traditional music in Britain? Is it because from which ever century that Africans first came on the scene in Britain as slaves or free[d] people they were eventually {before 20th century Caribbean and African immigration} so throughly assimilated into the culture that one can't say what their contribution was? Sorry if this is interpreted as thread drift, but if I don't ask here [on mudcat] where else can I ask? This is only partly a rhetorical question... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Burke Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:20 PM "But none of that planning, promoting of American music seems to happen at this place." You do see planning for events like the FSGW Getaway, where there are a lot of people in MudCat likely to go. The problem is critical mass, both in interest & location. If I want to try to get people together in Central New York, I'd do something on the Central NY Friends of Folk mailing list. If it's a Sacred Harp event, I work through the Shape Note mailing list. I get regular notices from someone about area Contra Dancing or I can go to Ted Crane's web page. I'm sure there are similar groups for other locales and/or specific music interests. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: number 6 Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:39 PM MG .... the only so called 'traditionalst snobs' I have encountered are bluegrass players. The most undiversed players when it comes to new ideas. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:05 PM Let it be known that Number 6 is so far the first of the folkie snobs who has been easily offended. I guess some old bluegrass is just so perfect, it doesn't need to be changed. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:18 PM Azizi - re your question about the lack of African influence in British folk music. Just a theory here - perhaps it's because there were comparatively few people of African descent in the UK prior to the 'Afro-Caribbean' influx of the 20th century (comparatively with the US, that is). Whilst the British involved themselves heavily in the slave trade as suppliers of slaves, they didn't import African slaves in large numbers to the UK. Thus it's only from the 20th century onwards that a heavy black influence is being felt in music here, and it's mainly in the hip-hop/rap/soul/R&B fields, and very much from African-American/Afro-Caribbean sources. Just my thoughts, but I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong! S:0) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:25 PM Mr. Burke-
You have identified an outstanding point.
Most of the American folk/FOLK contributors stumbled into the mc before max... MAX...changed it (and the banner/logo/mission) to the MC
We stumbled in....(some over 10 years ago) from the newsgroups....on invitation from respected American folk-archivists like Abby Sale....later wanna-be-but-your roots are dictators like Harpy and a "woman's contingent of healers" followed and have claimed this bit of cyber-turf.
Some, from the NG's expected the jabs, thrusts, and intellectual jousting - as long as it was balanced with academic posting. Newcomers, without the slightest knowledge of 2.3 or 3.1 or DBII, were suddenly thrust, by Mr. Gates, into cyberspace as "equals."
Thankfully, the DT continues. (Thank you dick and susan)
Somewhere, there is a severed, bloody fist flying in the seacoast wind.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:36 PM I have added to threads on American folk music here at Mudcat all along---since about 1998. I tell it the way it is from my point of view whenever there are questions raised that speak to what I know or have discerned. Sometimes the things I've said seem to have pushed some folks' buttons and elicited responses so off the wall and verbally offensive that I lose sight of the many positives of this place---and I cut my participation way back. I've made statements about the music or performers that seems right on the mark given the years of observing our scene it took for me to formulate those points of view. Yet, the next post from someone tells me I am only a traditionalist snob (at best)--and irrelevant. Well, with friends like that, I don't need enemas. As a result I pick and choose more and more where I bother to jump in now. Being rather old fashioned, I don't like being given the finger simply for being what, to me, a folksinger ought to be -- and is. Art |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: number 6 Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:54 PM MG .... I never indicated I was offended (and by what?), or that there is anything wrong with 'good old bluegrass'. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Dusty Dude Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:31 AM Martin, Let's try and spark some interest in American folk music and test the knowledge of our British friends with these questions: We got any "Jimmy Driftwood" fans out there? - :o) Or: Is anyone familiar with the history of a place called "Bradley's Barn"? If I receive some replies that don't resemble Google "cuts and pastes" I would be very much surprised... and, I might add, very pleased. I will be out of pocket for a few days, but look forward to checking back in later. M.G - I hope that this is the sort of thing that you had in mind... Dusty... P.S. - the smiley face after the first question alludes to a particular song in JD's work that might spark some interesting remarks from this venue... DD... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:09 AM Yes, I am guilty of owning a couple of Jimmy Morris albums. What do you want to know about Bradley's Barn ? I thought it was all Nashville pop country that Owen recorded ? As for Art Thieme's observations aboveI would have to agree. So much intersting material posted here gets an unnecessarily crude and ignorant response. I think that the reason there appears to be so much from here in the UK is that many people here tend to use the threads to correspond with other individuals with messages such as "will you be there John/"?. No sorry the cats just puked and I have to stay home". "Oh sorry, hope Kitty soon gets well, our dog just had fleas" etc etc ad infinitum.You get my drift. Little of relevance regarding music Can you please try and only post relevant messages. I might then even consider being more that just a guest contributor. Take it easy but take it (unquote) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:01 PM It's called Friendship, Hootenanny - isn't that what the 'cat's for? Because the UK's a compact place, many of us know one another personally and meet frequently. It's natural, therefore, that messages are frequently personalised like that. And there are a lot of musical events taking place here - in theatres,clubs and pubs - that many of us frequent. And messages are relevant because they are to do with music - musical events etc., not just 'Hi there, how's your haemorrhoids?' kind of stuff as you infer. IMNASHO! :0) S:0) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Jim Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:02 PM "Not many threads about Canadian folk music though" Well - here's one: For 20 years I was a "chord-basher" (albeit with good rhythm though) then a cousin visited us in the UK, picked up my guitar and finger-picked "Early Morning Rain". From that point on my guitar-playing took off (at last). I have probably got 99% of Gordon Lightfoot's recordings, and cover a fair number of his songs. So here's a toast to GL, and also to those wonderful acoustic guitars made up there! |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM I'm with you Jim. Gord's a cracker! S:0) |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Scoville Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:12 PM I can think of a couple of big differences between most of the "folk musicians" I know here (in Texas) and the people who post on the forum. 1) Most of the people I play with are quite conservative and wouldn't be comfortable here (not saying we're all raving liberals but . . . ) 2) "Folk" in the U.S. makes people think of Pete Seeger even though it could apply to a much larger sphere of music. Instead, we're divided into old-time (with all its regional variations), bluegrass, Cajun, blues, roots country, etc. All of these are "people's music" but they aren't necessarily what one thinks of when one thinks of folk. So, "folk" in the most common sense is rare, but there is plenty of traditional music. Depending on the geographical region, musicians are as likely to borrow from the Germans & Czechs (very obvious in Texas), French and French Canadians (Louisiana, upper Midwest), Danish (in the Midwest, where schottisches are a string-band staple), and of course Africans (blues, country). The UK may have been a starting point but there has been a tremendous amount of variation since then, and really only the most primitive American music is still strongly British. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:19 PM "MG .... I never indicated I was offended (and by what?), or that there is anything wrong with 'good old bluegrass" You just stated a fact "bluegrass is old" and has never moved on its stuck in the past. I suppose some of it's good and some bad, but how do you tell the difference? |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Jim Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:24 PM "bluegrass, Cajun, blues, roots country" - all brilliant! Well, it's all folk in my book Scoville, and all represented (eg very prevelant at the Whitby folk festival I'm glad to say). Anyone playing any of this music is applauded in my local folk clubs. Jimmy Rodgers is getting a fair old airing at the moment. I don't know if Buddy Mondlock or Slaid Cleaves classes as folk either, but what the heck? - it's great stuff, and I'll do it at any folk club I visit, without a second thought. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Frank Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:43 PM Bluegrass is not old. It's a recent development. Monroe started off in the oil fields of Indiana with his Bluegrass Boys. The Stanleys were popular around Virginia in the 1950's when I first heard them either on WWVA in Wheeling West Virginia or The Old Cotillion Barn Dance which I believe is in Virginia. Don Reno was a contemporary of Scruggs but never acheived the popularity because he went into the army. The earliest form of what we call Bluegrass dates back to the late 40's. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:39 PM Right Frank. it's actually quite a modern genre as we know it know. I agree with guest, Hootenany. Many of these so called music threads are just about a UK clique and that is why I don't read them and feel that they don't hold any interest at all for the greater folk community. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:24 PM I suspect that in fact there could well be a predominance of US music threads, but that we've got a similar position to that which we used to have with the non-music threads. They were always in a small minority, but they tended to get refreshed more often, because people got into conversations or arguments whcih went back and forward, so they were more noticeable up the top of teh page. I suspect the same may be happening with UK threads, because very often they are related to ongoing activities, and involve people keeping in touch with each other via the Mudcat. And that is because of the geogaphy - we're all a lot nearer to each other - and maybe also because as it's developed, it's more to do with making music rather than listening to it. And that's not so much to do with a surviving tradition, it's much more a sub-culture which has developed over the past few decades. ..................... The whole business about black music in the UK is a fascinating one. There isn't really a native black tradition, in the way that there is in the US, because, while there were sizeable numbers of black slaves and freed slaves back in the 18th century, they appear to have mixed in with the general population, rather than being a separate community. This article, on a BBC website, is worth reading The First Black Britons In the latter half of the last century there was significant immigration from various parts of the Commonweakth, and Black communities grew up, and imported traditions, which have continued to develop. But there's been, sadly, relatvely little interaction between between the native English traditions and black music generally (leaving aside American black music). That's something that deserves to be explored more fully, not as thread drift here. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Burke Date: 09 Dec 04 - 06:42 PM Can I suggest that this thread stay with the general issue of American folk on MC & the specific topics brought up be put into thier own threads? I'm sure there are many Catters interested in the specific questions who see this as an uninteresting meta-thread. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:13 PM well I think that showed those yanks! Should keep them out of our clique for a bit longer....... |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Once Famous Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:34 PM Hey, it's my thread. I started it. I believe it is about the difference in the US and UK approach to music and their respective music scenes, so, please carry on. I am always pleased when threads that I start get over 100 posts. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Azizi Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:06 PM At the risk of Burke taking offense, let me take this opportunity to thank Strollin' Johnny and McGrath of Harlow for responding to my sincere request to find out information about Black Britons in general and about the contributions of people of African descent to traditional British folk music. And thank you also, Martin Gibson for starting this thread and giving me the opportunity to ask these questions. Although this topic may be of little interest to most on this forum, the fact that I received such informative responses to my questions reaffirms my decision to spend time on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:25 AM I like Texas
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM Try the Y theatre in Leicester they do loads of multi cultural events with folk music from our ethnic community(as well as the home variety). that is Asian west indian and whoever the leicester mob are masquerading as this week. I think they are a bit more pro musician minded than many Brits. Like Asian films - there is a big home market for Asian music. Hope this is some help. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Burke Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:27 PM Azizi, Why should I be offended? It's not my topic that's buried. While you've gotten a couple of replies your topic is kind of lost in the rest of the discussion. The reason we have Subject lines & threads is to make it easier to follow the discussions we're interested in. I was only trying to be helpful in trying to suggest that if you start a new thread you might discover there is more interest in your topic than you think. You also could find responses to your without wading though the other material. |
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Subject: RE: Again, nothing about American folk music From: GUEST,Burke Date: 10 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM Sorry, I didn't notice your new thread. I think you see my point! |
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