Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM

Let me add why I appreciate Shore Grass so much. I've booked quite a few bluegrass bands over the years, but never one I enjoyed as Shore Grass. Shore Grass makes sure that the words and what the song has to say are never subservient to the instrumental breaks. And, Frank plays what the song needs on banjo, not restricting himself to the narrow range of traditional three-fingered bluegrass rolls. They honor the tradition without being limited by it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:09 PM

Sinsull,

The versions that I mentioned are definitely Bluegrass Songs. They may have started as something else, but such is the beauty of Bluegrass. By the time those songs left the mountains they were Bluegrass songs, complete with the high harmonies, Bluegrass Instruments etc.

Is Sitting on Top Of The World Blues or Bluegrass? I've heard it done both ways and I say it is both.

A bluegrass ballad that started life as a Bluegrass song. Several, but give a listen to The Stanley Brothers "The Lonesome River" to start. Carter Stanley wrote it. Carter and Ralph Stanley together were magical.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Franz S.
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

I attend three "festivals" a year:NCBS Good Old-Fashioned Bluegrass Festival,San Francisco Folk Music Club Free Folk Festival, and Western Workers Labor Heritage Festival. The broadest range of music is probably at the SFFMC event, but all three are characterized in large part by participatory music. I do a lot of singing along at all three. I don't recall running into anyone being snotty at any of the three. And I am passionately fond of all three.

I'm not a performer, but I am a participant. I've been listening to, singing, and trying to play bluegrass, old-timey, folk, gospel, labor, mountain, and country (I'm sure I left something out)almost all my life. I appreciate Barbara Shaw's comments. Let's try to look for the things that unite us. (Lord, that sounds like a Dubya slogan: sorry.)

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:15 PM

Aside:
I am trying to picture Dick Greenhaus as a Morris Dancer.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

Sinsull-
What brought that on? I have done some Morris dancing way, way back, but I seem to have recovered.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:52 PM

It seems to me several posters have mentioned the most important factor of all--whether you yourself actually do bluegrass or folk rather than just listening to it---it makes all the difference if you're a participant.

But if we talk about why bluegrass people don't like folk or vice versa we get into quicksand real fast.

What is a bluegrass song?

"Sitting On Top of the World" is not---or is it? I've heard some great bluegrass versions of it. "There Is A Fountain" is not--but the Bluegrass Cardinals do, to my mind, the definitive version of it. "Sleep With One Eye Open" is--and for me a great song with a sly sense of humor (also, according to Lester Flatt, banned as too suggestive by some radio stations when Flatt and Scruggs did it). "Little Bessie" is, for me, a bluegrass song--I've never heard a non-bluegrass version of it (though they no doubt exist) and the stark bluegrass instrumentation and "high lonesome" sound fit perfectly. So it may predate Bill Monroe--lots of bluegrass does.

A crucial question would be--what about the Carter Family?    I can't imagine bluegrass without their contributions.

Anyway, it's always too bad when somebody narrows his or her musical taste, and as I said, the most important aspect is doing a type of music yourself.

I've stayed up all night til 7 AM at bluegrass parties at least twice and had a glorious time singing and playing.   I've also sung and played til dawn at least 3 times doing folk music (not counting Getaways where it also happened) (as I said I really don't think you can separate the two rigidly, especially Carter Family material--why would you want to?)

I also like the lyrics in bluegrass--the best seem very evocative of a not too distant past--not only Singing All Day and Dinner on the Ground but also of a time when, for instance. death, even for children, was considered a very accepted part of life (e.g. "Little Bessie")

I take the religious lyrics in gospel bluegrass seriously--as the writers meant them. The romantic complaints I don't always take seriously--"Hit Parade of Love"? A sense of humor in music makes it even better.

Folk of course is wonderful--partly because of its variety---not just Child ballads but drinking songs, sea songs, farming songs, gospel especially black Gospel, but also Sacred Harp, Klezmir, Irish, Scots, western swing, calypso (especially calpysoes from the 30's and 40's), mining songs, railroad songs, etc., etc. But here again the distinction becomes meaningless---there are great bluegrass railroad songs, mining songs, etc.

I've found that in both folk and blugrass gatherings somebody who knows lyrics is appreciated, as is somebody who can do harmonies.

Have to admit I can get my fill of bluegrass intrumentals when the goal seems to be to finish first. But I'd say the same of folk ballads read off the page by somebody who really can't settle on a tune and stumbles over the words.

Some like vocals, some instrumentals. Optimal for me is a good song, with a chorus, and with great breaks--that way everybody gets a chance to participate, but individuals also shine.

On top of this I sing in choral groups, love orchestral music----and doo-wop.


There's such a wealth---as several posters have already said---good music is good music-----it's foolish to be narrow.

It also limits your own pleasure---needlessly.

Why do that?

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:54 PM

What a coincidence---cross-posted on "Sittin' On Top of the World".

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 11:36 PM

Maybe I should clarify. Obviously I'm not nostalgic for the years of TB and smallpox epidemics.

But songs about earlier times that really evoke those times I find fascinating.

The vast majority of Sacred Harp songs are about death, including the most upbeat.

A WAMU d-j here talks a lot about "plumb pitiful songs" and plays a lot of them--lots of listeners, including me, seem to like them.

Maybe it's realizing how Hobbesian life was, not so long ago, and realizing how much things ( in the West) have changed.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:29 AM

"Folk music" is yon stuff that folk sing and play. And folk clubs are plagued [as, apparently are "bluegrass" clubs] by "bigots" who see nothing good beyond trad, or are besotted by shanty, or some other narrow spectrum. Traddy-folkies should realise that, as in the antique business, some things that are dug up would be far better left buried. And our local club in Northumberland ---nominally a "folk club" ,and the BEST in the country at that time [I insist!!] used to welcome all who had a talent for entertaining, and many indeed who entertained only by the merit of their material alone. Shantymen abounded. Traddies were to the fore. And Bill Zorn and the Arizona Smoke Review found a riotous reception. I find great pleasure in all good music [I'm like Moses in this respect---as long as "Moses" isn't a pseudonym for Charlton Heston!]. I found to my delight that Bluegrass tends to be "three-chord' in structure, and invites participation of "lesser mortals" alongside vituoso fiddlers and banjo maestros. I have a great love for the good traditional music and song of many lands. I revel in shanties [being cursed with a voice like a foghorn!:-) ] And I think I would have difficulty finding a celtic piece that wasn't worth a look and listen.
Och!---I'm just music-daft!!

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:45 AM

Hey, Ron:

You sound like my kind of man. Last night, while I was adding comments to this and other threads about old-time, bluegrass and folk music, I was listening to a two CD set of the best of the Orioles. It took me close to twenty years to finally find a compilation that included one of my favorite recordings of theirs.. Don't Go To Strangers.

Why do people who love folk music hate Jazz?

Why do people waste their time and energy hating any form of music? Not appreciating it is one thing.. I don't appreciate opera or rap or disco, but if it speaks to someone else, then it has it's own, inherent value. It just doesn't touch my ears. The qualities of bluegrass that several posters find endearing are the same qualities that others (myself included) find repetitive or even irritating.

And by the bye: Old-timey music which is held up as the comparison in this and the thread on the subject is characterized as going on forever, with words mostly as an after-thought. If a band is playing for a dance, the music and the rhtyhm and the DANCE (no duh!) are the purpose of the music. The other times when old-timey bands play, the music, the words and the humor are the purpose. I booked old-timey bands for concerts for many years, and the songs were three or four minutes long, with an emphasis on the song, not the instrumental breaks. When I booked the same band for a dance, they played repetitive fiddle tunes as a support for the dancing.

Different strokes for different folks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

Jerry, thanks for the nice words about ShoreGrass. We combine some elements of bluegrass, old-timey, folk and even some blues in our band. Frank loves clawhammer as much as Scruggs-style banjo, which makes things very old-timey on some songs. And often when I try to write something bluegrassy, it comes out bluesy or folkie. As can be expected, the sticking point on some of the original music is the LYRICS! When I try to include more "content" there is a resistance from some quarters who want to keep it "simple." Hey, I'm fighting the good fight anyway...

Here's a good example of a song that exemplifies the folk process and demonstrates some commonality:

Curtains of Night (AKA I'll Remember You Love in my Prayers), written by William Shakespeare Hays in 1869.

This song was done by the Carter Family (early country), I heard it first by Stecher & Brislin (folk), Ralph Stanley recorded it (of course, he's recorded just about every song ever written, giving it his unique mountain sound) and I heard Dan Tyminski (of Union Station) perform it on stage with his own bluegrass band. The Carter Family and Stecher & Brislin use a different melody from the Stanley and Tyminski versions, but all are 4/4 time. Then our own Kendall Morse comes along and sings me a version he knows with a totally different melody in 3/4 time! All great. It's the LYRICS that tie them all together.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GLoux
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:26 AM

Gail Gillespie does a great version of "Curtains of Night" with the W.S.Hays lyrics on her Travelling Shoes CD backed by the New Southern Broadcasters. It's in 4/4 time. Old-time.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:52 AM

"The actual music is secondary in folk music. Doesn't matter much what the melody is about or the tempo or structure of the song, it's the words that really matter."

Thanks for the insight - I always wondered why so many folk performers choose songs that are devoid of any appeal tunewise - now I know. I'll try to stay awake long enough in future to appreciate the lyrics.

If the "actual music" is a throwaway, why not simply recite the piece - or, better yet, do monologues?

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:53 AM

I think that many bluegrass musicians with years of playing experience have a keen interest and deep respect for various forms of folk music. This comes about by knowing where the music roots are when you search out the music. There are for example old time musicians that are techincally capable of playing bluegrass music as well on a professional level and visa versa- e.g. such as Art Stamper, Kenny Baker, John Hartford, Tim O'Brien, Mike Seeger and many others who understand profoundly the music and it's roots and are also not afraid to take the music in new directions as well. Some of the great young players I know around where I live are certainly opening up these days and respecting other forms of music and the musicians who play. Chalk it up to experience of playing music with others informally, or perhaps performing at music camps and festivals where all forms of music gather in one place.
A lot of bluegrass musicians and audiences are focused in only their world only as a choice - be it a matter of lifestyle , taste, or perhaps non exposure and appreciation for other forms of music. You could say the same is true in musicians and audiences of other genres as well.
Tradition - a big part of bluegrass no doubt. How many times to we hear the same Gospel songs, or Scruggs tunes, or Bill Monroe classics over and over from bands. It can get a bit tedious, unless you are ingrained in the culture of bluegrass. Good bluegrass musicians know this and are reaching out in new ways - and they sell lots of records in compared to most folk music recordings.
Have a good read of Ron Block's IBMA Keynote Address on "What is Bluegrass" http://www.ronblock.com/ibma.keynote.2004.html
Arnie Naiman

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:13 AM

Those same old songs get very tedious, even for those of us ingrained in the culture of bluegrass! Those are the jams that I walk away from after a few minutes. In their defense, the people doing them have often been hanging out and playing music together for years and get great joy from playing the old tunes together each year at their festival reunions. Others who play the old chestnuts are very often rookies, just discovering the music and finding their magic for the first time, not the bohillionth time like some of us.

There's a great new band called King Wilkie, five young men who make wonderful, traditional bluegrass with their own NEW songs. If you get the chance, go hear them.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 10:49 AM

Arnie,

I have extremely diverse musical tastes. My only real exposure to the Banjo was through Bluegrass, mainly because I attempt to play it. I got the Banjo Special not long after it came out, and as much as I think Mr. Quinn is one of the finest BG pickers I have heard, I really like the stuff that you, Chris Coole and Brian Tenehy do. What a great CD.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:15 AM

Steve - I thank you for your comments about the Banjo Special. It was our goal to get some bluegrassers to hear players in the other styles too in hopes of appreciation such as yours.
Everyone's ear is different. David Freeman's review from County Sales was good except, He flat out stated his dislike for the Irish music. The Old Time Herald review stated their dislike for the bluegrass cuts and hailed Brian Taheny as a great player. Sing Out and Bluegrass Unlimited liked the whole deal. Go figure - it'a all in the ear of the beholder.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Oi, Jerry! I like jazz as well!

Maybe not overkeen on the trad stuff, but I saw some great live bands playing for free in my student days in Bristol (UK). Back then it seemed every pub had a jazz gig and I regularly used to go to a Sunday lunch gig and then play at a folk club in the evening.

There's only one criteria for the music I like best: it has to be LIVE.

Pete

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

Thanks, Steve. The Stanley Bros are now on my "To Buy" list.

Sorry Dick - that was pure stream of consciousness. Don't know where it came from.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 12:38 PM

Sinsull,

I would recommend starting with this one. There are some sound clips. Check out tracks 2 & 16 to start. I love Flatt & Scruggs, J.D Crowe etc, but there is just something about the Stanleys that make them my favourite. Someone once said that they never strayed very far from the mountain. Although they are a Bluegrass band, I think that they are closer to Old Time than a lot of the others.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000294U/qid=1100626418/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/002-2356520-4593636

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:01 PM

Guest, Joe

I said that completely in sarcasm in response to someone who said the lyrics in bluegrass are secondary.

I wish you would have read the whole thread so you would see what I was responding to.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 01:15 PM

Jerry,

I want to return to the initial thread. African-American people do like folk music. There are representatives notably in this form of music. Odetta, Josh White, Leadbelly, Leon Bibb, Jackie Washington, Sparky Rucker, Taj Mahal,
(many names not known these days) and more.

One of the problems is that the music has been segregated along cultural lines and redefined for cultural reasons. Bluegrass is essentially a newer form of music with Bill Monroe as the leading icon. Maybe it is opening up now to African American people and musicians and this is certainly a better trend. I haven't seen it yet but I will take your word for it.

There was a time before the music marketing forces began to take over bluegrass, blues, old-timey, celtic, ethnic etc. would have fallen under the rubric of just plain folk music. That obviously has changed.

Now the folk music label seems to have narrowed due to the insistence of the bluegrass community that they are not folk. For some reason, probably political, they have narrowed the definition of folk to be constricted to protest or topical music and/or the stereotypical coffee house singer (many singer/songwriter) playing for urban audiences.

I find this tendency toward exclusion to be unfortunate and as a result, bluegrass becomes a rubber stamp rather than a growing and innovative musical expression. A lot of this has to be placed at the cultural rather than musical level. Lets face it. Many bluegrass musicians are hard-nosed because they are prejudiced against the urbanization of America. This includes being uncomfortable with the presence of black people. It works in reverse. black people have no real interest in bluegrass because they feel it alien to their interests and needs. The same type of snobbery found in bluegrass, used to take place amoung the traditionalists of folk music which at that time was defined differently though ironically the definition came from folks who were mainly from the cities.

Today, there is a rich growth in the field of music whereby there are musicians out there who can play a variety of musical styles well, far better than when I was growing up. Fortunately, they are often not drawn into the semantic wars of bluegrassers, folkies etc.
They play and enjoy.

I happen to like all kinds of music including bluegrass but I see these lines drawn basically by non-professional musicians. i also see this as a manifestation of just plain old prejudice and a mythical ideal of what constitutes a rural or southern landscape.

Bluegrass started in the oil fields of Indiana and is a johnny-come-lately to the deep South.

It has to be seen as part of a larger picture of American music and not segregated to exclue anyone who isn't a mythical white rural southerner.

Frank

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Steve-o
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM

BTW Jerry, thanks a lot for this thread! American music WILL be discussed when we finally get a good subject. More, please.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 02:58 PM

To-day I have been listening for the umpteenth time to the sound track from, O Brother where art thou, sheer magic, and also to the Planxty comeback concert, also music to die for.
If it`s good bluegrass or good folk, it makes no difference listen and enjoy.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 08:47 PM

Some bluegrassers don't like folk because the songs can be jam-busters. Complex melodies with unpredictable chord progressions and subjective timing are not the kind of thing you can join in on, and participation is a big part of bluegrass culture. There are other jam-busters, but certain folk songs are sure to break up a good session.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Steve-o
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Whoa..."complex melodies with unpredictable chord progressions"...what "folk songs" have you been listening to??

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:23 PM

...and "subjective timing" ! Beats me. Have any examples in mind?

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

OK, not that complex, but more than the typical 3 chords found in a bluegrass song:

Summer Fly (Cheryl Wheeler)
Coal Tattoo (Billy Edd Wheeler)
Sing With the Angels (Rick Fielding)

We've tried all of these at bluegrass jams and watched everyone drop out, turning it into a performance rather than a jam.

The "subjective timing" refers to pauses and retards and other personal expressions and tempo variations that you might find in a folk song rendition but rarely in a bluegrass song.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:05 PM

Barbara

I thought that you were referring to folk songs rather than recent compositions ??

Surely if you are playing in a 'jam' then everyone participating needs to know the material whatever genre you are playing in.
If you don't know the material how can you take part?
May I suggest that you don't try and introduce your taste on other people's sessions but start your own. Others who are familiar with the material and enjoy playing it will then join you.

Too much slagging off people for their taste! It's all music (well most of it) and whatever we play/sing surely we do it for fun.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 03:10 PM

At the risk of continuing the never-ending "what is folk?" discussion, let me say that I don't consider folk to be only old songs. Cheryl Wheeler is surely a folk singer by anyone's definition, no?

My point about folk songs in a jam vs bluegrass songs is precisely that people can usually join in on a bluegrass song that they've never heard before. Most of the songs are quite simple and do not require knowing the material. I've heard hundreds of songs at jams and festivals, and always leave them having heard many, many more that are new to me. And usually no familiarity with the song is required to join in. In fact, I look forward to hearing new songs at every jam.

As for introducing my taste on other people's sessions: we carry so many instruments in our camper and usually camp in a compound with 2 or 3 other families, so we almost always jam at our own site or our own house. People join us all the time. My point was that for the "folk" songs mentioned, the jam became more of a performance during that song, rather than a participatory event for everyone, because the songs were too difficult for people who were not familiar with the material to join in easily.

I'm not sure what "slagging off" means (I can guess) but I don't think I'm criticizing anyone's taste. My initial post states that I love both bluegrass and folk, and although I'm in a working band, I can assure you I do it for fun.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 04:30 PM

Barbara and Frank are awright

Jerry

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 09:39 PM

"If the "actual music" is a throwaway, why not simply recite the piece - or, better yet, do monologues?"

Dylan, come back, all is forgiven...

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:14 AM

Barbara,
apologies for lapsing into the vernacular "slagging off" = "badmouthing".

In my world Bluegrass music is "Folk", as are cajun, old time(y), ballads, banjo tunes, fiddle tunes, blues and any material that has been around for a few generations and survived without the asistance of brainwashing by the media and their damned playlists.

I have to admit I don't know the name Cheryl Wheeler, what does she do?

I suspect (possibly incorrectly) that she is a singer/songwriter and she may be very good at what she does but I can assure you that you cannot make a claim that she is surely a folksinger by anyone's definition. As you rightly state above "What is Folk" is a never ending argument.

Billy Edd I do know (I received some audition tapes of his many years ago) and I really enjoy his work however I don't hear much/any of it now that I am aware of. Which of his songs are now performed in folk circles?

I'm looking for enlightement not an argument

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,LUDOBOIS
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL , BECAUSE IN A SENSE PEOPLE (NOT EVERYBODY)DON'T SEE MUSIC AS ORIGINAL BUT MUCH MORE AS A STYLE WICH THEY CONFORM TO AND THAT DEMAND SUBMISSION CAUSE LIKE RELIGION THE RIGHT ONE CAN'T GO TO TWO DIFFERENT CHURCH. bUT I THINK THAT IT IS PERHPAS MORE REAL IN THE PLACE WHERE THES KIND OF MUSIC THRIVES SIDE BY SIDE EVEN IF IT'S IN DIFFERENT TIME, CAUSE PEOPLE SEE THIS AS PERSONAL AS PARTS OF THEIR INDIVIDUALITY AND IDENTITY. FOR MY PARTS IN CANADA I DON'T SEE THIS KIND OF SEGREGATION, FOLK MUSIC FORE ME MEANS NOTHING SINCE IT HAS PRACTICLY EVERETHING IN IT (BLUEGRASS FOR SURE), OH YEAH I DON'T THINK YOU COULD REDUCE FOLK BY CATEGORISE IT, LIKE IF LYRICS SOMETIMES IS PREDOMINANT IS BECAUSE MUSIC DON'T ALWAYS HAVE GO THROUGH TIME LIKE LYRICS. THANK YOU, HOPE I DON'T HAVE LOOK CONDESCENDANT TO ANYONE, LUDO
SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH
MUSIC IS THE HEALING FORCE OF THE UNIVERSE

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:04 AM

Sorry about my own provincialism mentioning Cheryl Wheeler. She's very well-known around the northeast USA, and I assumed incorrectly that everyone knew her. She writes wonderful songs, has a beautiful voice, and accompanies herself on guitar. Yes, singer/songwriter. I don't really know anything about Billy Edd Wheeler except as the songwriter of "Coal Tattoo." And I assumed that most mudcats would remember our own Rick Fielding, a wonderful singer/songwriter from Toronto, Canada, who died this year.

My point was that these songs and others like them are too difficult to do in a bluegrass jam situation. In fact, I resort to looking at my songbook to get the correct chords when we do it. (My husband has no such problem, but that's my problem). That would be one reason "Why bluegrass musicians don't like folk" if in fact they don't.

Other bluegrass musicians in fact love folk. Take Charlie Waller, for example. He recorded many, many folk songs. (Am I being provincial again? I hope not...)

Jerry, I'll getcha for starting this thread! Do you have any idea how many other things I have NOT accomplished, getting absorbed in this (most interesting) discussion??

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:25 AM

GUEST,Frank - look into the McHenry Family Band, an excellent "black" bluegrass band that most festivals WON'T book because (apparently) the M.F.B is the wrong shade.

A real pity, because they're fantastic!

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:08 PM

Terry Allan Hall:

I'll take the tip offered to Frank. Of course, there were black old-time string bands, too. The Dallas String Band being the best known (and wonderful.) I imagine there are some Hindus who love ragtime, but the exception doesn't negate the generality. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

Barbara

The recently late Charley Waller's work I have been familiar with since the first Country Gentlemen recordings in the early sixties and saw him on his (only ?) trip to England a few years back. He certainly had wide tastes and the ability to put the stuff across including some great country songs.
I really don't believe that most bluegrass musicians dislike folk (depending on your definition), how can they it's the roots of their music. What I do believe is that if they have a session going on and someone attempts to join in with music or instruments that don't fit into what's going on then they might not be too happy, same with any session surely. I get involved in bluegrass type sessions and old timey sessions and don't mind who joins in provided it fits and they know when to hold back. Someone playing spoons at a bluegrass session or bodhran at the old time session would certainly give me reason to put down my instrument and pick up my pint.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:36 PM

Jerry---

You were dead right in your first posting on this--many people--not just bluegrass fans have a wildly distorted picture of folk music.

It is certainly true that bluegrass people want to participate all the time-- not just patiently wait for your turn in a song circle, nor listen to navel-gazers sing about their own angst. Folk is obviously far far more than the navel-gazers, but unfortunately there is some of that. Even more unfortunately, sometimes they sell big, and since it's now so easy for anybody to do a CD, that's what the folk DJ's get flooded with, and they play a distressing amount of it.

It's also really hard to write a song dealing with societal problems without using a sledge-hammer approach, which comes across as (usually leftist) propaganda or the aforementioned whining.

To the degree radio folk DJ's play this sort of thing, traditional or "music in the tradition" is marginalized and folk gets unfairly tarred with the bad singer-songwriter brush. Mudcatters prove constantly that there are still excellent singer-songwriters around, by doing it themselves--I heard a lot of great newly written --(say, in the last 30 years)--songs at the Getaway, for instance.

But the stereotype of a Jewell--- (or whoever the prototype is these days)--- wanna-be is really hard to shake. When the general public (including but not restricted to bluegrassers) think of folk, they either think of Blowing in the Wind folk-scare stuff or whining singer-songwriters.

It's a blatantly unfair and distorted perception, but persistent nonetheless.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: balladeer
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:18 AM

Billy Edd Wheeler wrote The Coming of the Roads, a big hit for Judy Collins back in the day.

Great thread!

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: PennyBlack
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

We like music.

Folk, Bluegrass, C&W, Irish, Pop, Classical, Punk, Jazz etc etc.

PB

Bluegrass - "Folk Music with an overdrive" - Earl Scruggs

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:39 PM

Cheryl Wheeler is very well known in Alaska also, Barbara Shaw. She writes excellent songs- including the ironic '(Honey), Don't Forget the Guns'. She puts on a good show.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:23 AM

Congrats, Jerry, on getting up a thread that's worth contributing to and reading. Although the title of the thread may appear divisive at first glance, it is precisely the innumerating of differences that forces the realization of commonality.

Ron, who often jams with us, by the way, Jerry, is one of the more eclectic players and singers around our area and can contribute in many genres.

Our old pal Rick Fielding liked to use "Rolling in my Sweet Babies Arms" as an ice breaker, he did so with me the first time we sat down to play togther. That song began as Old Time (no it wasn't a fiddle tune, ahem...) traveled into Bluegrass and Country. But is performed by Doc Watson at Folk Festivals. Rick's choice was a perfect one in that that song, like Ron's example above, "Sitting on Top of the World", travels across the American Folk/Tradtional/Old Time/Bluegrass/Blues genre boundaries.

Susette and I travel across the boundaries, also. In fact, we don't see them as boundaries, and distinguish between them only when asked:
"What kind of music do you play". How I dread that question, as there is no short answer. As we have seen illustrated in this thread, we don't agree on the definitions and one never knows what one has truly said to the questioner.

regards,
chance

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:48 AM

they know when to hold back...

That's another reason why some bluegrassers don't like folk, again related to the jam situation. Folkies (and others) inexperienced with bluegrass jam etiquette (many good threads on this) tend to play along all the time. In a good bluegrass jam, you can hear every instrument and every voice and people know to HOLD BACK when someone is taking a lead break and HOLD BACK so as not to obstruct the vocals. Rookies thrashing away on their guitars during someone's break or during the singing will raise the irritation factor tremendously and break up a good jam. This of course is unlike an old-timey jam, where everyone happily plays along together in unison.

Communication and education solve this issue quickly and add new people to the circle if done gently.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:28 AM

I didn't know that this was an issue until recently. I was at a popular bluegrass event. I heard not only bluegrass being played but oldtimey, fiddletunes, swing, country, celtic, jazz, singer/songwriters and even what I consider folk music being played there. Even some of the headliners at the event held workshops about songwriting and performed their own material in such a way that did not strike me as being bluegrass at all. This gave me some ease as I don't possess, musically speaking, what seems to be a prerequisite in most bluegrass, that ability to solo at great speed.

I also don't approach what intruments I do play in the same way as they seem to command I do in order to be a part of their circle. About the closest thing I can do to join in is play some bottleneck slide solos. I use my homemade resonator which is a cross between a Dobro and a National, I call it a Nobro. It is tuned in a different form but still a version of open G and though it has a square neck I play it as a round neck, and not lap style. That's how I set the guitar up to play when I made it. I get strange looks from some, right from the start, when I approach to join in one of their jams.

I can sing and lead a song or even add some vocal harmonies. I can also add some harmonica solos but I've noticed that harmonica is not widely accepted unless you can play solos like the devil and keep up with their fastest Celtic stuff or fiddletunes. I can't, but what I do does serve my purposes and in my opinion does sounds nice on a few things that they play.

I can really bust up a jam when I approach them with my washboard, the one instrument on which I can keep up when speed is a factor. It is visually very stimulating and looks like something Spike Jones might play. I think that shocks most bluegrass players. Before I even get an opportunity to play they figure I'm gonna make way too much of a disturbance in their formula approach to playing. Actually, quite the opposite is true. I've learned, after scrubbin on the darned ol' thing that more is often less when it comes to percussion and that subtlety is a good thing. Still there's that visual factor some find uncomfortable and tend to shy away from. Most don't consider washboard, especially one with as many crazy additions as mine has, as being an acceptable bluegrass instrument. I'll admit that I do enjoy exploring some of the zanier aspects of what I've added to my ol' Maytag but only where and when it's appropriate.

Another instrument that I can add to those rare slow numbers that bluegrass musicians are sometimes known to play is the musical saw. The saw has the capability to flow beautifully and harmonize well within many types of music, just not that speedy stuff that bluegrassers are so fond of playing. I can solo with it or play back up softly. It has a very vocal quality to it and blends easily with vocals when those complex bluegrass harmonies are being showcased but again, it's a saw and just the site of it seems to make grassers shrink away. I don't know if they're fearfull I'll scratch their precious instruments (saws are the natural enemy of all wood products you know) but they all move away from me, or quickly change tempo beyond my capabilty to follow on the razor sharp handtool when they notice I've joined their jam. I can only play so fast with my saw before I start losing body parts. Fortunately, most do grow back. It's the ones that don't that I worry about.

So, my point is, what's a saw bendin', washboard scubbin', harmonica huffin', bottleneck slidin' guy to do? Hmmmm, invent a new genre?

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:20 AM

No, try to do a solo act, I guess.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: HuwG
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:35 PM

Bluegrass is obviously not as common in Britain as on the other side of the Atlantic, but does have its devotees.

I have worked at venues which recently hosted events sponsored by the British Bluegrass Federation. The audience was obviously different from that at a folk event. They were generally older; they were hushed and reverential.

The bands picked up this atmosphere, and while the music was excellent, it was rehearsed and unspontaneous. There was practically no communication between performers and audience, other than to say in response to polite applause, "Thank you. This next number is called, whatever", and then launch into it. The bar staff tiptoed around, but didn't have too strenuous an evening; the audience all seemed to make one or two pints last all night.

Obviously, an event which didn't have this formal backing might be a little less restrained.

Folk acts are generally marked by lots of banter between the performers and the audience (and among the performers themselves, sometimes reaching the level of "What key are we in ?"), vast quantities of drink being bought and consumed. Set lists are there as a rough guide only.

Here again, this is one extreme end of the folk spectrum, which can approach comedy. I do agree that I have had to sit through too many performances of trad. dirges.

Incidentally, one of the best bluegrass and C and W singer/songwriters has a musical background from ... Sheffield and Manchester, UK. I refer to Lorna Flowers. I have to admit I am very fond of this lady since a snog (all right, a polite peck) and a free CD, last year.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:44 PM

Reggie--

Most bluegrass people are even more friendly than "Martin Gibson", hard as that might be to imagine.

A couple of possibilities:

With your washboard, I would think you could do any number of railroad songs--it would fit pretty well. In the groups I've played with, I'll tell you we would have liked it.

And the saw would be good on waltzes (of course your key would have to be good for other instrumentalists also).

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:41 PM

Reggie

I am not an unfriendly person at all and am willing to share my knowledge and experience with anyone. There was nothing at all intentioned to be mean spirited about my short and simple response to your post.

Ron Davies just has a problem with many things in his life, that's allthat I can imagine. It was uncalled for by him to single me out and shows very little class on his part taking his vendetta into the music threads.

PM me about it if you want to.

Subject: RE: Why Bluegrass musicians don't like folk
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:12 PM

It was short and not really so friendly, Martin.   People who want to get into bluegrass deserve encouragement. Think before you post.