BS: America commits war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:29 PM

Authoritarianism, right or wrong is the cry of the war criminals.
Hegemony is nothing new, the US has been doing it for years.
How about McKinley in the Phillipines for example?

Hypocrisy in foreign policy has become de rigueur.

Hillary is a hawk and Obama is in bed with the MIC.

What do you expect?

The World Court has no power to extradite the US let alone Bush and Obama.

The OWS is supporting world peace and condemnation of the Obama Doctrine.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

OK, LH, that I understand.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:36 PM

Okay. How would you answer it? I think another possible answer is: "because they have friends in high places"

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:24 PM

No offense: all that's well and good, but the answers don't answer my question.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 01:12 PM

It all started when they hit us back.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:38 PM

"why is it that people who commit war crimes are not prosecuted?"

It's a matter of sheer power, that's all. "Might makes right." The only time high level war criminals (like heads of state) are prosecuted for war crimes is when they become prisoners of a conquering power, following a military conflict....or....

...sometimes a few of the small fry (ordinary soldiers) will go on trial as an exhibition to mollify public outrage. They are then sacrificed, but their top commanders and their political leaders go free.

And so it has always been. Might makes right is the functioning rule of international politics.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM

If we got around to prosecuting all the presidents (and other national leaders) whose actions have led to war crimes being committed....there'd be a whole lot of politicians up on trial. War itself is a great crime, particularly when it's a war of choice...(as opposed to defending your own ground against a foreign invasion and occupation). Anyone has a clear right to defend his own ground, territorial waters, and air space. No one has a right to unilaterally decide to invade someone else's, just because "they might attack us one day" or "they might do this, that or the other thing we don't agree with" or "they might have or be planning to build this or that weapon which we already have so many of ourselves that we can hardly figure out how to pay for all of them".

For practicing gross hypocrisy like that, I think it would be very appropriate to put a number of our politicians (past and present) on trial. It's not a partisan matter. It's a matter of basic moral principle that goes beyond partisan loyalties.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM

"You imply that it is OK for Obama to do the same things that Bush did because Bush has not been prosecuted yet."

The real question here is why people who commit war crimes are not being prosecuted. So, I ask: why is it that people who commit war crimes are not prosecuted?

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:11 PM

I never said you said any of those things. You are accusing me of something I did not do.

I merely stated that your line of reasoning in the statement "soon as Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney & the rest of the BuShite criminals are tried & convicted, Sawz, we can move on to Pres. Obama.
OPne thing at a time." Would lead to the other conclusions. The same logic as in A+B=C means C-A=B or C-B=A or C=A+B

Perhaps you need to study the English language.

You need to study logic too because your only logic consist of false accusations to defend your lack of logic.

You imply that it is OK for Obama to do the same things that Bush did because Bush has not been prosecuted yet.

Please note that imply is a different word than said. They mean two different things.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

Rubbush. Learn to read and understand the English Language, Sawz.

Not only did I say none of those things, but there is no reason for you to assume that I "meant" them- unless you're simply making things up & pulling stuff out of your arse as per usual.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

That is the best excuse err, reason to allow Obama to commit war crimes that I have heard yet.

Can you tell me the logic in this Mr. Logician?

If there is any logic in this equivocation, it exonerates "the BuShite criminals" of any wrongdoing.

If Obama does it, it is OK because Bush did it and was never prosecuted.

Obama does it too so it must have been OK when Bush did it because he was never prosecuted.

By that reasoning Bush should be prosecuted because it is wrong and Obama should be prosecuted too.

Your logic is over ridden by Tribal Politics. You must accept wrongdoing by members of your tribe while complaining about the same wrongdoings of the other tribe.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:45 AM

Just so soon as Bush, Wolfowitz, Cheney & the rest of the BuShite criminals are tried & convicted, Sawz, we can move on to Pres. Obama.
OPne thing at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:36 AM

Nader: Impeach Obama for war crimes

Former presidential candidate Ralph Nader says President Obama should be impeached for committing "war crimes" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The consumer advocate and former presidential candidate said in an interview that aired Friday that Obama has committed "war crimes" on the same level as President Bush.

"Why don't we say what's on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached," Nader said in an interview with the anti-war Democracy Now! organization.

Nader's comments came before the U.S. on Saturday launched military strikes into Libya, but they are among the toughest criticisms Obama has endured from the left.

The consumer advocate participated in an anti-war demonstration outside the White House this weekend, during which more than 100 protesters were arrested.

The U.S. sought the passage of a U.N. Security Council resolution and commitments from European and Arab nations before taking action in Libya to thwart the country's leader, Col. Moammar Gadhafi, from killing civilians amidst a rebellion against his regime.

Nader's comments, however, were mainly directed at Obama's prosecution of the Afghanistan war. Some liberal activists have objected to Obama's decision to escalate the war and are unhappy with government's treatment of Bradley Manning, the Army private accused of leaking classified documents to the organization WikiLeaks.

"Bush officials were considered war criminals by many people. Now, Barack Obama is committing the same crimes," Nader said. "In fact, worse ones in Afghanistan. Innocents are being slaughtered, we are creating more enemies, he is violating international law."

Obama appears to be facing growing resistance from the left over his administration's foreign policy.

Anti-war filmmaker Michael Moore sharply criticized the president's authorization of military strikes in Libya and a cadre of liberal House Democrats are questioning the constitutionality of the Libya operation.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:46 PM

It is all well and good for you to cheer these kids from a safe seat somewhere. They pay a heavy price for your bravado. War changes people. Sometimes permanently. Don't be so quick to cheer.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

"In a book based on interviews before his execution, American Terrorist, McVeigh stated he decapitated an Iraqi soldier with cannon fire on his first day in the war, and celebrated. But he said he later was shocked to be ordered to execute surrendering prisoners, and to see carnage on the road leaving Kuwait City after U.S. troops routed the Iraqi army."

Think about this, Guest US.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:22 PM

Is it now the excepted norm that war is a good thing?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:22 PM

Yeah, brilliant logic US. McVeigh was so anti-war and non-violent, right?

Dumbass!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:50 PM

All of you anti-war protesters are members of the Timothy McVeigh Club of government haters.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

Uncle Sam = dork.
Lots of bluster
Not much talk.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

Brucie:
Took you long enough to think of it.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 01:52 PM

...and now they've raided a mosque in Baghdad and killed and wounded the people while they were praying.

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 08:54 AM

Ditto, Barry... Well written and sums it up very nicely!!!

Now, what about one of our Canadian Catters trying to make a citizen;s arrest of Bush while he's in Canada? Or has he escaped back to the dafety of the US. You know that Belgium was thinking about bringin' charges against Bush but word on the street is that they rethought it after Bush sent their president a poatcard of a mushroom cloud...

But really, one's debts must all be paid and Bush is running up one heck of a big inhumanity debt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:40 AM

I don't get it, would someone explain all this to me. We use our might to overthrow a nation who poses no threat to us, using fear tactics & the flimiest of excuses & then cry poor intellegience (no shit). 45 minutes & Iraq could nuke the US. Turns out Iraq couldn't get out of it's own way. War crimes? Surgical & persission strikes, not from what I saw, killing & shooting unarmed military & civilians. Torture, rape & murder & all this long before any beheading started. Well if we're gonna say fuck the rules what's to stop all the other players from not doing the same thing. No matter what a person, be it soldier or civilian, has to witness there is no excuse for murder. That goes more so for the trained professional soldier. Is it a crime that skilled Iraqi contractors are bared from rebuilding their own country, they were well capable of contracting before we got there & we wouldn't be overcharged by the sweet smelling deals of the HellBurdens that are sucking us dry. The occupation of Iraq & the fight that the Iraqi's are waging is getting worst, they're ranks are swelling daily while ours are getting picked off like ducks at a county fair. These fighters that we're told are mostly from elsewhere & that it's just a handfull misguided rabel. To my way of seeing this, this is a twin sister to Viet Nam, no end in sight, no glory, no victory & a lot of war crimes & crimes against humanity. Our name has become Mudd. One more thought about many of those that came home from Nam. Alot came home as basket cases & alot as junkies who were trained killers. I can only say from those I loved & knew from what they had witnessed overseas many couldn't live a peaceful life afterwards, will we see a repeat of the past again. War Crimes, can I borrow those rose colored glasses that people seem to be wearing these days. By the way watch the new CIA (Civilians In Action) it seems as if they're gonna take War Crimes to a whole new level.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 04:37 AM

Uncle Sam is a dork. Both of them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 12:01 AM

Quick rejoinder. Took you long enough to think of it. Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:53 PM

Brucie: No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:59 PM

Super Ted, Hitler was gassing Jews and Gypsies. Should we then have shot all unarmed German prisoners that were wounded from 50 yards away?

Your attitude is exactly what the problem is.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:56 PM

Any attempts to present Saddam Hussain in a positive light or to justify the actions of the insurgents are utterly PATHETIC. That said, Mcgrath is completely correct in pointing out that none of this would have happened if not for this illegal, immoral and unneccessary war. 'But Saddam was killing people!' I hear you cry. Well, none of that would have happened if the Yanks hadn't helped put him there. Iraq would perhaps have been a normal Middle-Eastern country (where people are murdered, oppressed and tortured, but hey, as good liberals we must respect their way of doing things, and, the bottom line is, they don't do it as badly as S.H. did, and we aren't bothered enough about it to declare war on them - yet. Wait until we need more oil.)

The filth who murdered Margaret Hassan are suppressed in decent societies - they thrive only when a country is weak, divided and traumatised, and that is the effect of this illegal war. Bush and Blair must share the ultimate responsibility. I still find I can't work up any real anger about the marine killing the insurgent - and that too is another shocking effect of this war, compassion fatigue.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:02 PM

DougR,

You might want to read a post before you disagree with it in knee-jerk fashion. At 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM I agreed that Saddam HAD, in fact, murdered those people if you define murder as allowing them to be killed by your security forces. I then merely pointed out that there is another living head of state who ALSO has murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians, using the same definition of "murder." That head of state is George W. Bush.

The part of Larry's post I said was silly was the claim that Saddam had RAPED hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

Finally, there isn't really THAT much evidence as to who killed the people in the mass graves, and whether they were in part Gulf War I victims.

More importantly, it is likely that some of them were Kurds who George Bush I encouraged to rebel by suggesting he would back the rebellion. Then he screwed them royally by leaving them to their fate while continuing to aid Saddam. So I'm not sure those murders are free and clear of American influence, either.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, Dougie, I do care for human life and there nothin' hypocritical about havin' quite a lot of resentment fir Bush wastin' over 100,000 of our fellow earthlings over oil and politics... Are going to tell me that Saddam would have killed 100,000 of his own countryman over the same amount of time since the beginning of the invasion? Hmmmmmm? I think maybe you need a session with the Wes Ginny Slide Rule.

Yeah, I am a humanitarian and Bush isn't. He let innocent folks be executed in Texas with tahe same little gleeful smirk that we see when he challenges folks to "bring it on" and kill and injure my   American brothers and sisters of the working class...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:08 PM

"We have to fight fire with fire." As Osama Bin-Ladin would no doubt say.

Actually what does that metaphor mean in this kind of war? "We must kill the people who might be recruited by the enemy, before they can join the enemy"? - because that is how, in a firefighting situaton, you do actually "use fire to fight fire". I don't really think it is an applicable metaphor for any would-be civilised fighting force.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

Well, we know one thing for sure, and that is the US has taken over the job of butchering Iraqis for Saddam...I'd say the US has done a great job of catching up w/Saddam in the senseless slaughter department since March 2003.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:58 PM

Gee Larry - We don't know who the people in the mass graves were and we don't know who killed them. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how long they were there. Do you have any credible references?

For all I know, they may have been killed during the first Gulf War.

d

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM

Nerd: if those thousands of dead Iraqis dug up from the mass graves discovered by coalition troops in Iraq were not placed their by Saddam and his policies, who killed and buried them? They were killed long before there was an invasion of Iraq!

And Bobert, you claim to care for human life but assert that you wish things were as they were in Iraq before the invasion. Anything hypocritic about that statement? Hmmmm?

Larry K: good post.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Another thing Larry K - You are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan when you talk about "Iraqi women having no rights". But, as a probable Fox News viewer, it is understandable that you would conflate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

The insurgents have to resort to that sort of tactic, they don't have any jet fighters, helicopters, tanks, etc etc to fight back with, super ted.

This was never going to be a fair fight, because you have the most powerful military in the world beating up on a third world paramilitary fighting an occupation of their country.

How exactly is beheading people one at a time (which certainly keeps the casualty numbers down) more barbaric than bombing an entire nation into oblivion?

It is because of attitudes like yours, super ted, and mary garvey's, that we need the Geneva conventions, and to police the military.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The Insurgents are cutting people's heads off for god's sake! We have to fight fire with fire. If I had been that young marine I would have shot the bugger from 50yards away!

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 11:27 AM

"And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second?"

You don't. That is the very nature of combat, and that is why soldiers train. And they ARE NOT trained to do what that Marine appears to have done, which is to summarily execute a defenseless human being.

That said, we also know that there is a military double standard that says "fuck the rules" and that allows atrocities to occur fairly often, anytime the military is engaged in combat, anywhere in the world. Especially military and paramilitary organizations that know you can usually get away with committing atrocities. Every soldier who engages in committing atrocities knows they might be caught, but that it is highly unlikely that they will be, or if they are caught, that there will be any negative consequences for them.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

For what it's worth, GUEST 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM, it's because I can see a setup fairly easily. I know you think you are smarter than us simpletons, but I will choose what I am going to share and with who. And this is more of your "I am not going to respond" but still respond stuff.

I will be watching this case very closely, because I do agree with GUEST on one issue. Killing defenseless people, whether they were combatants or not, is not what honorable warriors do. When this type of thing is done, it completely blows the "moral superiority" angle that the administration tries to take. Events like this, or Abu Ghraib, only lend credence to the arguments against our actions.

Having said that, I will withhold judgement until all the facts are presented. This young man is going through experiences that idealistic Quixote's like GUEST have no frame of reference to understand.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:25 AM

No you didn't forget 'candy ass'. You just posted.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST,US
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:24 AM

I forgot candy ass.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 09:11 PM

Mary,

I do NOT think anyone here is supporting Muslims per se. People seem to be saying that the US ought to get the heck out--and others are saying it has no right to be there, that's all. The thread title is that "America commits war crimes." Yes, America does. All countries do in war. ALL countries. Saying America doesn't is tripe. Wars that Canada has been in have resulted in crimes, and those crimes have been committed by my countrymen. In this case, YOUR countryman committed a crime. Iraqis have committed them too. War allows that to happen.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

Judging by the pictures that have come out. the Marine was well aware that the wounded man was NOT boobytrapped. Had he been and killed at such close range, the resulting explosion would in all likelhood have taken out the Marines standing in the area.

In the same way I will always believe that our government knew very well that Saddam did NOT have WMD or they would not have invaded. They knew Korea and Iran did have weapons that could have been used against us - and they didn't go there.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: mg
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

They have so much respect for the Muslims and other religions of Fallujah that they are freeing them at the cost of their own lives. Fifty one of them. Maybe they got it wrong. But their intentions are exactly that. And how do the wise ones of the world know who is unarmed and armed in a split second? You gotta be smarter than me for sure, but then most of you think you are. mg

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:25 PM

I'll take Macho trigger happy shoot first and ask questions later men over liberal elite scaredy cat crybaby girlie men...

That is precisely the way in which terrorists think, I'm afraid. I am quite sure that Timothy McVeigh would have wholly agreed with those words.

As for Saddam - he was an evil man, and the most evil things he did were done while he was a valued friend of the USA, supported to the hilt. By the time of the invasion he was greatly weakened and vulnerable. With a massive army poised to invade, his rule was crumbling, he was accepting a whole string of concessions. There seems very good reason to believe that he could have been brought to make a deal that removed him from power, before too long. It would have required patience and determination.

There was no valid military reason whatsoever for launching the invasion at the it was launched. The military build-up was not yet complete even. The only apparent reason for launching the attack at that time, rather than wait anither six months or even a year was that this would have meant problems with Bush's re-election plans. That is not in itself an acceptable reason for killing thousands of people, and for launching a war without any clear understanding of what was entailed, and without any clearly thought-out exit strategy.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:19 PM

Sorry, I meant to add that an execution is an execution, whether it is a beheading for the Al Jazeera cameras or executing a wounded, dying man by blowing off his head at very close range for the NBC cameras.

There is no difference in the barbarity of the acts. None. Both are barbaric executions of defenseless human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM

Odd isn't it, that the most vocal of the Mudcat veterans here, choose not to tell us what their actual military/combat experience is that use to bludgeon people over the head with in these sorts of heated debates?

Why should anyone give their opinions any more credence than anyone else's? I mean, for all we know they could be a bunch of military wannabe types.

As to the difference between Marine murdering the wounded combatant, and the Hassan beheading, I would posit there is a difference of a few degrees only: one of the victims was a civilian and the other (presumably) chose to be a soldier in this war. But both of them, I'm sure, felt they were contributing to the welfare of the Iraqi people the best way they could.

Both killings are despicable. That is a no brainer. But from the looks of it, the Marine summarily executed a wounded prisoner of war, which is against all morality and reason, regardless of boobytrapped bodies. Hysteria of battle or not isn't a defense. That Marine knew from his training that booby trapped bodies are a reality of war, just like he knew from his training that executing wounded prisoners of war is against the Geneva conventions, and you can't rationalize that reality out of existence just because the other guy's army isn't a signatory. So that line of reasoning is irrelevant too.

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:57 PM

Yeah, I rather have Saddam back in power and my country's attention turned back to the War on Terrorism. We're less safe now that the noecons have destabilized the entire Middle East...

And as fir the Saddam-was-a-bad-man-and-raped-and-killed-his-own-people blah, blah, blah, I am not at all comforted by the fact that now the US military is doing it for him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

Oh, if only the United States of America had "dilutions of mediocrity. "

Subject: RE: BS: America commits war crimes.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:24 PM

"Sadaam would still be in charge murdering and raping hundreds of thousands of people."

Yes, didn't you know Saddam was raping hundreds of thousands of people?

This is the sort of silly comment that people make when they have ceased to apply any reason to a situation.

BTW, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians ONLY if by "murdered" you mean that his policies, his military and security personnel killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. By this definition of "murder," there are probably only two living heads of state of whom it could be said that they murdered over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. One is Saddam. The other is George W. Bush.