BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......

Subject: BS: If Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:20 PM

Now personally speaking, I am against abortion but, hey, I'm a guy and a white guy at that....

...but I'm pro-choice.

Here is my question. If Roe v. Wade gets overturned then if a woman gets an abortion will she be arrestesed for murder? And if so, where does the death penalty enter into the scenerio?

Also, what if another woman flies to a Latin American country and gets an abortion? Can she be charged with murder in the state in which she resides? How about the death penalty for her?

Any thoughts?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:21 PM

Make that "If"... not "after"....

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:42 PM

Actually, Roe v. Wade only made abortion legal during the first trimester of pregnancy. I don't know where we got the idea that Roe v. Wade made all abortions legal. Here's the summary opinion from the decison in Roe v. Wade:

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

The whole decision is online.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 10:53 PM

Good question, Bobert. It is now official that a fetus counts as a second person murdered if its host parent is killed. So any overturn of Roe/Wade would impact any subsequent abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:26 PM

Who'd have ever thought that Arlen Specter would be considered a "moderate" and a slight wedge to keep Bush from automatically cramming the Supreme Court with pro-life judges? It's still bound to happen, but maybe Specter (of the Clarence Thomas debacle fame) will be a little block in Bush's road. He says he won't block anti-abortion judges, but perhaps something else in their records will work as well to block them, eh?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:49 PM

If you happened to see the post on another thread, about a pharmacist who refused to give a woman birth control pills because he didn't believe in them, you'll see that this is sadly only the tip of a huge iceberg waiting to engulf the women of America.

Many think that the fight to upturn Roe/Wade is the first step to making sure us wimmenfolk are back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.

I wish I were kidding, but all bets are off in the U.S. of All hell breaking loose.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 11:52 PM

Bobert,

Is Roe vs Wade going to be overturned?

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

Actually, it is only third trimester abortions that the state reserves the right to proscribe, but those are extremely rare cases anyway.

There has been a steady erosion of women's civil rights for the past 30 years, and it doesn't just have to do with women's reproductive freedoms. I really can't imagine anything more regressive than the Clinton welfare reform bill for poor women. There is still no move towards dealing with pay inequities between men and women, and women's real pay is eroding at an alarming rate as well.

But hey--we don't need feminism, right? Those crazy womens libbers are just a bunch of bitches, right?

Women already have all the freedom they need in the US of A, right?

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 12:53 PM

Wooooo! I can't wait to read the threads when Bush appoints Scalia or Thomas to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court after Rhenquist resigns.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:16 PM

That isn't where you will see the fight, DougR. The fight will be over the next appointment to the SC bench. IF either Scalia or Thomas become Chief Justice they don't get an extra vote.

I also have strong doubts that Roe v. Wade will ever be overturned. I just think it highly unlikely that a recent decision would be overturned purely based upon political ideology grounds, even with this mediocre court. There would have to be something legally wrong with that decision for the justices to overturn it--something that has rarely happened in the history of the court.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:30 PM

If the woman goes to a foreign country they probably won't be able to get her for murder but they will probably charge her with kidnapping, transporting a minor over state lines, child abuse and anything else they can.

The thing is that it won't stop abortions. We'll go back to the blackmarket style and many women will end up dead because doctors will fear doing them, health standards won't have to be met, etc. I'm against abortion and I realize that.

And worst of all with the welfare reform, lack of school funding, dismantling of soc. sec. and other "socialist programs" we'll have alot of young men and women locked into low wage jobs without finishing their education. Dooming the child to be raised in poverty and probably repeating the cycle. If you don't think so then you haven't visited the inner city areas where this happens all the time even with abortions being legal. No-one wants to adopt babies afected by drugs or alcohol or "colored" babies.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

You're all acting like the far right christian anti-abortion folks are in the majority. They aren't. Depite their protests of being "betrayed" if Specter gets the judiciary appointment, there are a lot more folks out there who disagree with them. The holier-than-thou folks are just the noisiest about their unhappiness right now, trying to solidify what they want others to perceive as a coalition. It isn't.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM

Correct. It is the political radicals that are praying they will be able to overturn Roe v Wade if the perfect storm of political circumstances can be summoned up by their Almighty Bush.

Fat chance of that happening, I say.

Chief Chaos, you sound like one hell of an ignorant racist in the last post of yours. I live and work in the "inner city" which you conveniently feel free to abuse and blame for all of society's ills. I can safely say you not only are wrong, but are full of shit besides when it comes to "urban" and "inner city" and "socialist programs" of which you redneckly speak.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

Shouldn't that be "redneckedly?"

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: *Laura*
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

It's illegal in Brazil - and thats where they have the highest number of abortions and death from abortion.
Hey wonder what Bush would say if it was one of his daughters who had to make the choice!

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 06:22 PM

Redneckidly?

Redneckaciously?

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: MAG
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 09:27 PM

If you are concerned about this and can go see *Vera Drake,* do.

It takes place in GB in 1950, and deals on the surface with a slightly sinpleminded woman who "helps" women in trouble with the ol' lye solution solution.

And make sure you pay attention to the very last dialog in the film; if you are already putting on your coat, you may miss a big piece of what the film is all really about.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Peg
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:44 AM

Mike Leigh has dealt with abortion, sometimes fleetingly, sometimes emphaticly, in every one his feature films. I am glad he finally addressed the topic fully in this latest film. Leigh's parents were both in the medical profession. He apparently comes down on the side of abortion being an undesirable option and many of his characters offer the view that it is "murder" or "the easy way out." But the strength of his treatment of this issue is that a number of different views and situations and contexts are presented--and within this diversity of portrayals, the decision to have abortion is seen variously as calculated, cold, terrifying, sad, thoughtless, desperate and teeming with regret...kind of like it is in real life.

Over fifty years after the time in which Vera Drake takes place, attitudes have not shifted all that much (although the "life begins at conception" argument is much more self-righteous and contextualized as Christian, which is kind of silly)--the only thing that has really changed is that the procedure has become safer and fewer women are dying from it, whether at the hands of legitimate medical doctors or back-alley butchers or well-meaning housewives.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

Saturday 20 November 2004

    "Washington - House and Senate negotiators have tucked a potentially far-reaching anti-abortion provision into a $388 billion must-pass spending bill, complicating plans for Congress to wrap up its business and adjourn for the year.

    "The provision may be an early indication of the growing political muscle of social conservatives who provided crucial support for Republican candidates, including President Bush, in the election.

    "House officials said Saturday morning that the final details of the spending measure were worked out before midnight and that the bill was filed for the House vote on Saturday.

    "The abortion language would bar federal, state and local agencies from withholding taxpayer money from health care providers that refuse to provide or pay for abortions or refuse to offer abortion counseling or referrals."

Storming the Doors

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

And as we can see, it doesn't take MUCH of a majority...

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:27 PM

We can also see that Senator John Kerry has no genuine interest in protecting women's reproductive rights. Why the silence from the Kerry camp, after the promise that he will take the fight to the Republicans on issues like these?

All Kerry had to do to get this language out of the damn bill was step up to the microphones. Apparently he was too busy planning the launch of his next exploratory committee.

But again, it is going to take something as dire as women losing their reproductive rights in this country to galvanize the population. Maybe the women in this country deserve to have Roe v Wade overturned on them, so pathetic has their response been over the abortion rights issue.

And BTW, this tactic is nothing new. Under Clinton, the Congress successfully got through a bill that prohibits federal funding of abortions for poor women around the world. So I fault both the Republican party and the Democratic party for the erosion on abortion rights, birth control, etc. The Republicans couldn't ram this sort of shit through without Democratic cooperation.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:38 PM

Kerry has been speaking up against this spending bill. The thing is immense and is being shoved down everyone's throat at the last possible minute. There are a lot of nasty things within it to choose from.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Really. Wonder why I haven't heard squat about either the language in the omnibus bill, or Kerry's response to it?

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

GUEST SEZ:

"All Kerry had to do to get this language out of the damn bill was step up to the microphones."

SRS point out Kerry HAS spoken up.

GUEST Replies:

"Really. Wonder why I haven't heard squat about either the language in the omnibus bill, or Kerry's response to it?"

Hmmm, GUEST, can you really blame Kerry for your failure to hear about this? Isn't it more likely that the mainstream media are once again making a bigger deal out of Terrell Owens and a nekkid actress than about a Senator and his reaction to a proposed spending bill?

When DO you hear details of spending bills and individual Senators' reactions to them, GUEST? When one of the presidential debates dared to be about issues, Candy Crowley and her CNN cronies proclaimed it a "wonk-fest" and said it wouldn't affect how people voted because it was TOO SUBSTANTIVE!

Our media think most Americans would rather sleep than listen to details about spending bills and what Kerry has to say about them. Therefore, you won't hear about it. That's not Kerry's fault.

Let's face it: first of all, this language does not ban abortion. It makes it no longer illegal for government funds to go to sex health programs that DON'T mention or support abortion. In other words, it increases the points of view that are allowed to be funded with Government money.

At the best of times, blocking such language would be a hard sell; it would be like blocking the stickers that say "evolution is only a theory." Many vociferous and committed people would support this language, while the opposition would be lukewarm: "I'm fighting to PREVENT people from NOT advising abortion? Huh?"

Now, you and I know, GUEST, that this is the thin end of a wedge, and that it can itself have far-reaching consequences by starving out medical programs that DO provide abortions. But to the average person, who does not want to BAN abortion but who is no great lover of aborion per se either, this bill probably looks pretty acceptable.

The news media then have this to consider: explain in detail what this language will do, show Kerry's response, etc, so that the story will make sense. Or else, ignore the whole thing and show another installment of the Peterson trial.

What's their decision gonna be? Fuhgeddaboudit!

My advice: wake up and stop blaming Kerry for every damn thing.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:25 PM

there are a lot more folks out there who disagree with them.

And a majority of the population in the U.S. disagrees with the Bushite agenda. Didn't stop these same assholes from electing Bush again.

Scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the the basic building block of the universe. I dispute this. I claim there is much more stupidity than hydrogen, and THAT is the basic building block of the universe.
  - Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 09:01 PM

Stilly River Sage said:

He says he won't block anti-abortion judges, but perhaps something else in their records will work as well to block them, eh?

One can always hope.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 09:05 PM

GUEST said:

Really. Wonder why I haven't heard squat about either the language in the omnibus bill, or Kerry's response to it?

Because the news media have chosen not to make anything of it, that's why.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:16 PM

Guest,

I think you misread my post.
I am not being a racist. I am working in the inner city, in fact I can truly say that our building is in the worst part of town. I also went to school here. I'm not saying anything about this color or that color, I'm merely pointing out that without the safety net of the programs I have mentioned (and you might notice it's in quotes to draw attention to what the right wingers think they are) that things won't get any better. I am not the first to point out that there is a poverty cycle and without abortion and contraception that cycle can only worsen. As far as the adoption statement I don't know of anyone willing to sya plainly what I have said and it's true with few exceptions. Babies that have been harmed by drugs and alcohol consumed by their mothers (and I make no distinction about race here, are harder to place because of problems with health and mental disorders. And last I heard, read, or saw, we have more minority children growing up in foster homes and orphanages than non-minority children. If that is not so then I apologize, but I haven't found anything to the contrary.
Please take a deep breath and realize that I'm on your side.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

Because the news media have chosen not to make anything of it, that's why.


Right. It's all moot. Who wants to hear what the "loser" thinks, right?

America spoke, from swamp to shining plain. They've had enough of the liberal media's nonsense. "No more Will & Grace!" they demanded. "Bring back The Dukes of Hazzard!"

So shut yer pie-holes and get on the bus! We're rollin' to glory! Here come de rapture!

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:44 AM

Hey Bobert, how can you be against abortion, and be pro-choice? Does that mean you are "kinda" against abortion or "kinda" for pro-choice?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:47 AM

Sounds kinda like he's FOR freedom, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 02:08 AM

"If Roe v. Wade gets overturned then if a woman gets an abortion will she be arrestesed for murder? And if so, where does the death penalty enter into the scenerio?"

The death penalty enters the scenerio when a pregnant woman submits to a backroom abortionist.

Thats what we're trying to avoid.

Apparently pro-lifers value the unborn fetus more than the life of a woman.

d

Subject: RE: BS: After Roe v Wade is overturned......
From: Nerd
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:59 AM

DougR, all it means is that Bobert is in the mainstream majority of Americans. He doesn't like abortion, but also doesn't want it banned. He disagrees with what some people do, but defends their right to do it. Not so hard to understand, really.

You were just pretending to be thick, right? As a rhetorical device to ridicule Bobert.