BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:29 PM

And, Martin---beware of self-made traps. Your superior intellect has dropped you in the shit yet again. "defenceless" in my Concise Oxford Dictionary is splelt [or spelled] "defenceless". Y'know, the UK folks were driving CARTS on the Left side of the roads before you guys had either a cart OR a road! Childish backbiting will never win any friends---or arguments. If you don't toke, have an aspirin---calm down.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

Guest, Boob

It looks like you are the one who has a bug up your ass.

Easy to get at through your skirt!

LOL!

Watch out your "cart" doesn't tip over.

dianavan, your world consists of what's between your legs and nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

The article makes some reasonable points, but any attempt to justify the murder of Margaret Hassan as the act of "desparate" individuals is ridiculous. These are simply murderers who have tried execution, found they enjoy it, and are using a hybrid of religion and hate to justify their actions. Bush and Blair have certainly stumbled through the occupation of Iraq like blind men in a mine field, but they had no hand in this particular crime. I am personally sick of the kind of rhetoric coming from both ends of the political spectrum that want to link their political opponents with individuals who are plainly psychotic. Liberal=Terrorist, for example, or Bush has caused the murder of Hassan, for another. Such arguments remind me of the defense attorney's plea for Ted Bundy... his actions were horrible, but they were the direct result of his unhappy childhood, and so hadn't his parents, neighbors, and the elementary school system be put on trial as well?

The problems in Iraq are painted in shades of gray, but some things are clearly, inexcusably wrong. Like Margaret Hassan's murder.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:49 PM

LEJ, I could not agree with your conclusion.

I think it could have been predicted that putting boots on the ground in Baghdad would bring this sort of madness out of the woodwork but I won't go so far as to say that Bush caused Margaret Hassan's murder in particular.

A

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:52 PM

Agreed. "Cause" is too strong a word. But is it a fair question to ask - "If the coalition had not invaded Iraq, would Margaret Hassan be alive today?"

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:22 PM

If the coalition had not invaded Iraq, would Saddam Hussein still be killing his own citizens in droves?

Amazing how some just don't get it.

Get real, please.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:06 PM

But is ita fair question to ask- "If the other countries and the protesters had not let Saddam know he could get away with non-compliance with the UN resolutions, would the US have seen any need to have invaded Iraq?"

Or is this one of those questions that right-thinking people are forbidden to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:00 AM

Seems to me that Iran was supporting the Kurds fighting against Iraq. Why didn't we just let Iran and the Kurds finish off Saddam? Would they have lost? Why did the U.S. think they had to get involved. Did anyone ask for their help?

d

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:10 AM

The second to last post from our Martin says it all---about the Man Himself.
His last one proves beyond doubt that there are still numpties around who believe the stupid lies which "justified" the war on Iraq. Or perhaps they don't, any more, but like their brave heroes in the White House, they perpetuate their "justification" by suddenly finding that the war is all about "Iraqi freedom" after all. They just don't have the nous to know that the worldwide resentment they have stirred up would have been much less virulent if they had said "We are invading to get rid of a vicious dictator". Well, the vicious dictator DID exist, although even that statement would have been a lie then as it is today. The same vicious dictator got a helluva lot of assistance in his oppression from those who now are embroiled in the horror that is the "democratisation" of Iraq. The

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:21 AM

--as I was saying when the fingers slipped---[!]-the U.K., the U.S.of A., ---and France, and others who thought they had an axe to grind all had a clandestine part to play. And now they try to convince the world at large that it was Saddam they were after all along. In a pig's eye! There's a three-letter word O-I-L. It's spelled the same no matter where it comes from, be it Iraq, the Caucasus, Darfur or North America---and that --and Israel--is what it's all about. It might surprise those hawks in Washington and London if they got rid of their blinders and told the simple truth henceforth, just how much increased support they might find.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:32 AM

there are still numpties around who believe the stupid lies which "justified" the war on Iraq.

I would have thought that was made patently obvious by the re-election of President Lying Sack himself-

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:06 AM

Guest, Bood, your finger didn't slip.

Your stupid head did a long time ago.

Fuck off, Oh great hater of America.

Fuck off, all of you America haters.

For Thanksgiving, I am glad I do not live in your morbid little European countries.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:10 AM

Martin...you are fuckin brilliant..
If you didn't live here, we'd have to invent you...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:26 AM

Thank you, Ake.

Have a nice holiday, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM

I wonder why people hate America, when it's full of fine, intelligent, gracious, tolerant gentlemen like Martian Gibbon. How unreasonable the rest of the world must be.

OK, I know most Americans are fine, intelligent, gracious, tolerant gentlemen (and women). Just a shame that Martian lets you all down so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:36 AM

Strollin' johnny, you watch too many bad sci-fi movies.

I'm tolerant of you. Just as you are tolerant of the terrorists who killed Margaret Hassan.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:29 AM

No Martin, not tolerant of them at all - I'm very intolerant of all those who act violently and against the rights of others, irrespective of their religion or nationality. But there are better ways of expressing my intolerance than those you employ. Whilst your arguments may (or may not, I'm not making a judgment here) be valid, your poor use of language, and your constant practice of resorting to filthy insults, lose you the support of others who might otherwise be on your side. Your anger and vitriol defeat your purpose. You will never get respect for your point of view if you disrespect those who don't quite see things your way.

But I know I'm wasting my time here, so farewell and adieu.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

You waste your time everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

There you go. Thanks for proving me right. Byeee.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 11:53 AM

How many times can you say bye?

It just proves you can't live without me, Johnny baby.

don't let the door knock you over on your way out.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:03 PM

Yeah whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

Took balls to post again, Johnny.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

Yeah whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

Yeah whatever. Beat you to it.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,US
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

Tia:

Possibly so but If Saddam had heeded the UN resoultions would Hassan be alive today?

If The UN was not corrupted by the Oil For Food program would Hassan be alive today?

There are thousand of things in the chain of events that would have spared her life including a swifter end to the war if the anti-war protesters were not giving the terrorists the idea that they can win using the anti-war sentiment stirred up by killing Hassan.

Would people still be having their tounges cut out, tortured in many ways and entire familys murdered If the coalition had not invaded Iraq?

The answer to that is definately yes.

Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: TIA
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:54 PM

"There are thousand of things in the chain of events that would have spared her life..."

Agreed, aboslutely positively.

"...including a swifter end to the war if the anti-war protesters were not giving the terrorists the idea that they can win using the anti-war sentiment stirred up by killing Hassan."

Baloney, on so many levels.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,US
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

Anti-war protesters are Stalin's "Useful Idiots":


know the people I'm talking about. They are for peace and always against war, even after September 11. They think patriotism is racist and abusive.


Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:22 PM

you know, for some strange reasons i thought that article would satisfy a lot of people, because it was uncompromising in its condemnation of Margaret Hassan's murder, yet also pointed out some hard truths about whats happening in iraq right now.

why not take five minutes to remember Margaret Hassan and the wonderful work she did for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:37 PM

Margaret Hassan is a martyr to new Iraq

a beacon of hope

wikipedia on Margaret Hassan

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:58 PM

She was an admirable woman for many reasons, but when I read in the one article linked to these sentences
This city of 5 million was a very safe city. There was stealing, but not acts of violence against people.
I must say she also was a bit naive. (or: cited completely out of context)

The streets in Hitler's Germany were also safer than after the war, seen from a point of view of an unpolitical German with the right ethnic background.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:59 PM

Dear little Martin--
When you grow up [ if ever], you may at some stage learn to judge your fellow-humans more astutely. You seem unable to tell the difference btween an "American hater" and a plain "evil-hater".
Y'know, I don't know the nationalities or the religious affiliation of more than half the folks who contribute to these contentious threads. Some have made both conditions obvious. What does shine through almost without exception, however, are their moral values.
    Now---to this "American-hater" stuff. I am wed to one of the finest Ladies ever reared in the City of Chicago. I attended [and provided music at] the wedding of another long time American friend just last Saturday; met the family, too--all fine people. I visit and regularly communicate with a Vietnam vet in Illinois. And his views and yours are at opposite ends of the spectrum, believe me. My partner exchanges visits with a real sweet lass from 'Frisco, who DIDN'T vote for the Bush candidate, and who is Jewish, and detests Sharon and all in Israel who share his foul intentions.
    American hater? Me? Doesn't that mean that I must detest Bobert, Little Hawk [is he American?] and all who see the filth sticking to BOTH sides?
   Martin---you haven't had your aspirin yet. Try it--it might help.
And I'm admitting here and now, this posting was for EVERYBODY who reads the Mudcat forums; not only for those who try to defend foul beliefs by insulting all who dress, look and think differently from themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:01 PM

Way to go Boab!!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 01:25 PM

Boab...I hope you didn't think my last post meant my agreement with any of Martins ideas.   I am much more in tune with your phylosophy.

But yet there is something so gloriously politically incorrect about his posts,most of which I think are tongue in cheek.

In this time and especially on this forum, when we have to scrutinise everything we write lest we are jumped on by arseholes screaming bigot or racist, its refreshing to see someone who just lets it all hang out....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 10:36 PM

Thank you once again, Ake.

You continue to be one of the astute ones here.

And, Guest, Boab, you continue to be one adult who seriously has a problem with the heartbreak of diaper rash.

Must be hard to go through life so chafed all of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:27 AM

I've read this thread with dismay and sorrow.

One of the reasons that we go to war is that we find it hard to hear someone shouting abuse at us without replying in the same terms - and so it escalates.

Getting back to the cruel murder of Margaret Hassan, I find GUEST's "sacred killing" explanation fascinating. It brought me to a halt, as I thought about killings in my own country like those of Louis Mountbatten, Pat Finucane, and so on. You've educated me, GUEST, thank you.

I think that Margaret Hassan was the victim of a serial killer, though. The extreme violence done to her body - arms, legs and head cut off, torso disembowelled - is not the act of an activist but of someone with a psychopathic nature.

War allows people who would otherwise be hunted and jailed for their crimes to play at will. This is so on every "side" - I have no doubt that there are psychopathic killers among the American, English, Scottish, and other coalition soldiers, and also among the Iraqis and their own coalition of helpers.

Yes, her visible terror when making videos shows how she must have been tormented; her tragic end was the act of a murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Boab
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 04:10 AM

Aw shit!--I give up. The guy can't even manufacture a decent insult!
Guest JTT---a perfect summary Sir.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 10:01 AM

Here's one for you pure and simple, Boob:

Fuck off.

And Guess, JTT you are just making excuses

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 01:02 AM

Way I figure it, those guys that killed Mrs. Hassan are on some sort of freakout tweaker trip. There wasn't any THOUGHT fer gawd's sake!

Talk about a nest of paranoid rattlesnakes!!!

A friend of mine is convinced that World War Three has started.

CB

PS will you folks please quit yelling at each other?

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Boab
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 03:13 AM

Ah, well, "f--k off" never ever won an argument. It does end most of them , however. If that was your aim, little man, you have indeed scored a win. See you on another thread. If you misbehave, I will tell you...

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Nov 04 - 10:48 PM

You won't tell me jack, Boob. It won this arguement as far as I'm concerned because you are so done they could put a fork in you.

I will tell you everytime when I think you are full of crap.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 06:53 AM

You know friends, there has been a lot of silliness said here, blaming antiwar folks etc. Well, frankly, having lost a friend in Iraq, a dear, gentle, courageous man, Arthur Helton, who was killed in the blast which leveled the UN office, the fact is that people like Arthur and Margaret Hassan go to work for peace in these places. They did so successfully, in the face of many dangers for many years. They did not go to kill for peace. The increase in danger that killed them came about as a direct result of a war begun, not for the people of Iraq, but for the greed of Neo Coms. For the many years that I had the privilege of knowing Arthur, I often asked him about the things he saw, and was somewhat amused that he would not speak about the horror or suffering he saw in Bosnia, or other war zones to which he went, as a UNHCR official, but he would speak in great detail about the logistics of the work. Delivering aid was his soul thought, saving lives in the gun sites - a calm force of good in the worst situations in which humanity tortures itself. I beg those of you who rattle sabers at each other, not to claim our friends as your martyrs, they are not. They are martyrs for peace and humanity.
All the best
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 06:57 AM

What a great comment, thanks so much Larry.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:10 PM

Yes

Art

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Boab
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:09 AM

Larry---you tell all of us. Your posting should end the contention on this thread. Thanks for speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: GUEST,US
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

silliness said here, blaming antiwar folks

I don't regard it as silliness. Those innocent people are murdered to stir up the "antiwar folks" and make them protest to end the war.

If you disagree, why?

Why would terrorists take the time to kill innocent people instead of someone trying to kill them?

Israel has a policy of never meeting the demands of hostage takers. Instead they try to find and rescue the hostages. Are they worse off because of this policy?


Uncle Sam

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:09 PM

Much of the problem is in the media---don't give these hostage takers the platform they seek and slowly (and hopefully--surely) they will crawl back into the woodwork with the rest of the termites.

Their cause is only aided by publicity. And they know it.

Israel has the right idea---no negotiations---find the kidnappers and try to release the hostages-----would we had another Entebbe.

As to terrorists---we hit the bee's nest and now they are swarming---so much for the nonsense of ridding the world of terrorism by this administration. They merely covered their asses for the intelligence foul-up and then created a situation they wanted all along---control of the region. Not going to work. Talk about nation building---sounds more like Imperialism---after all---where were we with the African problems and others---no oil, and no interest.

Frightening picture in today's NY Times of our troops wading off of this generation of "swift boats" trying to capture insurgents---they joke about Nam. As Pete Seeger wrote---"...when will they ever learn".

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:35 PM

Cut the crap about "insurgents." They are Islam fascists. Insurgents, my ass.

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:57 PM

So much for nuance, I suppose----Martin Gibson.   Islam and Fascism are totally incongruent. $5.00 words aside one could have a whole discussion on that---my point was more than the one word you so wonderfully quoted and had little to do with the point.

The point was publicity, terrorism, and our failed policy.

Always good to see your one line diatribes---Dick Gregory and Godfrey Cambridge did it better and more cleverly. Mort Sahl too.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 02:40 AM

Gibson doesn't need asprin, he needs ritalin. Strewth what a moron!

Subject: RE: BS: the murder of Margaret Hassan
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 08:16 AM

Dear Uncle Sam:

"Israel has a policy of never meeting the demands of hostage takers. Instead they try to find and rescue the hostages. Are they worse off because of this policy?"

Are they better off? Seems to me that this policy linked to plantations in occupied lands in homes and on farms litterally stollen from Palistinian families has not brought about peace. You don't often make peace by throwing folks out of their homes, any less than you make peace by suicide bombers. You make peace by acting reasonably.

We have been culpable in making the world which has given rise to the present horror, and in stead of giving back in kind, which leads to an unending cycle of revenge, it is time we stoped electing leadership which conciders the stockholders and directors of Haliburton as their base.

A degree of peace and the begining of an reasonable outcome in Ireland came about when Britan no longer needed a war in Ireland (see the threads about NATO and Ireland). Suddunly it was possible to negotiate with "terrorists" and the political dynamic changed. The criminal description suddunly was placed on loyalists, and the republicans who were terrorists yesterday became statesmen today. But, still we get led down the gardin path towards wars that are waged on a bed of lies and we pay the price.

I wish those who think nonsence like this war and the patriot act could have spent time in the northern counties of Ireland in the seventies, and seen that all this theater does not make you safer.

All the best
Larry