Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:55 AM

the Black Horse in Whitby has the same problems, (alledgely ! )

QUESTION why move next door to a pub if you don't want the noise associated with them ?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:23 AM

Heard on the BBC radio news this morning that the Bull's Head in Barnes, SW London, home of nightly jazz & blues for many years and Humnphrey Lyttleton's base: he plays there monthly, had been threatened with thousands of pounds of soundproofing by council demand after a neighbour, who's only been there a few months, complained about the noise of even acoustic sessions.
I suppose if she'd moved next to a railway line she'd have written to ask Railtrack to stop the trains. It's like people who complain about cockerels or church bells that were there long before their house...
(Stop ranting , Roger, it's thread creep. OK I'll shut up!)

RtS
(At least Jagz only has the railway to contend with!)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 05:49 AM

1. These days, a keyboard does not have to be a piano. Good portable keyboards are available.

Recent case-law has established that MIDI is 'recorded sound'. So the playing of these MIDI keyboards are both live music and recorded music, at the same time.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Well, as Nick knows, I play most weeks at the Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington and I write my own stuff and own the copyright to it. But although I can do this legally, it won't be much fun if there is no-one there to listen to it! And equally, I wouldn't have much fun if no-one else can play and sing.

Nick is right - even if we don't like the answer to the question, we have to ask the brewery. And it would be nobody's fault for asking.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Dec 04 - 07:40 PM

"Coincidentally" a chap from the PRS called at the pub in Farlington on Thursday lunchtime to see what was going on as I think he felt they were owed money, and left a very well produced set of booklets and prices.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 10:23 AM

Pupils to get anti-piracy lessons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4055753.stm

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 06:37 AM

Or maybe get a sence of humor. Or not

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: pavane
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 05:26 AM

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. It doesn't HAVE to be handled through PRS/PPL, and you could print that on the CD!

Maybe a whole new arena for songwriters, writing and recording specifically for pub use?

You do automaticlly own the copyright of anything you write yourself.

(Perhaps we could adopt the Bob Dylan approach, change a few words and the odd note, and claim the copyright? )

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 05:45 PM

Friday night and every things right for the weekend, got a date for half past three at the week end,Rog called Mick and Mick called Sue I made a dash into the loo, a few pints of Sams and every things right for the weekend.    THIS WEEK ANYWAY. NELLIES 1600hrs START.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:45 AM

Robin:
Everything may be "copyright once created". The point with Traditional music is that it has ceased to be copyright. (Most countries now 70 years after death of author/composer)

Nigel

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 08:20 AM

Well, in Australia, everything is automatically copyright once created - I assume you mean 'copyright not assigned and handled thru PRS'... in which case if the CD label stated that, it would create an interesting legal precedent...

Robin

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: pavane
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 07:48 AM

Various comments on the above:

1. These days, a keyboard does not have to be a piano. Good portable keyboards are available.

2. The PRS only has control over music which is in copyright

3. The PPL ditto over prerecorded music

THEREFORE
a) A privately recorded CD containing only non-copyright material AND/OR material written and recorded by the vendor
CAN be played in a pub without a PPL licence

b) provided the premises has a licence for entertainment, it can provide live performance of TRADITIONAL and self-penned material without paying the PRS.

Therefore it becomes more economically viable to provide folk, classical and early music than pop, rock or jazz.

The biggest problem is in determining what is in copyright - see many other threads. Even if a song is not in copyright, the tune or arrangement may be.

In particular, you cannot even sing 'Happy Birthday to you', because it is still in copyright.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:29 AM

It's all muscle!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:19 PM

... to match the waistline? ;-)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:42 PM

Unless it was Uncle Albert playing! Different pubs for different people. That's what it should be about. Sam Smith's are offering good value on their beers and an environment where you can 'think' as well as talk. They will always have clientel. I sincerely hope live acoustic music is allowed to continue in their pubs as many of them such as Nellies have the atmosphere that goes hand in hand with that style of music. Loud, brash pubs are not my scene unless I was desperate to go and watch a sporting event on a large sceen. Mines a pint of Extra Stout.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:37 AM

Hi Foolestroup ........ we too have those gas heaters, but I for one don't want to sit outside on a cold night, I much rather sit in a pub with an open fire, quenching my thirst, deep in conversation.

When I go to Ireland however those heaters are appreciated cos you have to stand outside to have a cigarette !

Maybe I'm clairvoyant because when I first heard a Jukebox in a pub in the late 60's I knew then that the pub would never be the same again, I was fortunate enough (although underage) to catch the last of the era when an old lady or gent played the piano on a Friday and Saturday night and still consider it to be the best entertainment in the world

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:28 AM

If it turns out that I was wrong and Sams promptly ban all live music then at least you'll know who is to blame.

Folk may attempt to blame you - simply for trying to establish the true position - but the true blame for all this, lies elsewhere.

As there will be no extra cost to the chain for making the application for all its pubs to provide Regulated Entertainment - there should be no real reason for them not to do this, come February 2005. They don't HAVE to actually provide any subsequently but it will enable the sort of small-scale music making that seems to be going on at present (with or without the knowledge of the top management).

There is certainly no harm in asking what their intentions are and if they are deciding not to apply - it will be useful to know this - and the reasons - as soon as possible.

The issue with the PPL/PRS may be a bit more complicated. But the lack of these licences does not come with quite the full weight of law behind them. If they claim that the chain owes them money for the use of any of its material - perhaps the onus should be on PPL/PRS them to prove the level of this claim, especially if it was only for live (folk) music, where it should not be too difficult to arrange payment of a small fee, for this that would be acceptable to all sides? Samuel Smiths obvious reluctance to pay the £1,000 fee for the recorded music - should make this second option easier.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:13 AM

"outside seating with heating ........... Australia come to mind."

Well, funnily enough - many places in Brisbane and west of here are installing those gas bottle heaters with the big reflector shades on the top - in winter time they can be very handy... in summer time - ice packs would be nmore useful.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:35 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

The management ARE aware - at least definitely in our case. It's quite difficult to hide on your sales figures too I would guess (ie AREA MANAGER: "Your takings are very good every ???day, what are you doing to attract the business?" PUB MANAGER: "Just a coincidence..." Hmmm!!!)

My interest in writing to them is so that I know before and can make other arrangements rather than have it happen one day and be faced with doing things in a hurry. Potential venues in this part of the world for hosting folk get togethers are limited without having to travel lots and it is not necessarily something to reorganise in seconds.

Sams responded to my previous contacts promptly and politely and I see no reason why they shouldn't do so vis a vis live music.

If it turns out that I was wrong and Sams promptly ban all live music then at least you'll know who is to blame.

I dare say that as a reasonably large pub chain (and with their interests in working mans clubs etc) that they MAY have got the whiff that something is in the offing about PEL and that it won't come as a total surprise. I would guess this is closer to the position than a group of total naifs running Sams.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:44 AM

Guest Al, would I be correct to guess you are under 30, The very things you suggest customers want are the things some of us try to avoid like the plague, when I go for a pint (which I do very frequently) I like a decent beer or stout or cider and good company and good conversation.

I do not need plasma screens, sport, juke boxes of any description, sky TV or any TV come to that (if I want to watch TV I'll stay home or tape it and watch it when I get home) If I want a big screen I'll go to the cinema. Modern interiors are fine in modern pubs, personally I like old, well worn, lived-in interiors where you can feel the presence of all the clients of the pub over the years and as for outside seating with heating ........... Australia come to mind.

These are the very things that have ruined pubs, pubs should the heart of a community where people can meet and talk and laugh and cry, share problems, discuss issues,as Hilaire Belloc wrote "when you have lost your pubs, you may drown your empty selves, for you will have lost the heart of England" I couldn't have put it better myself

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:33 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

Don't think there was ever really a place for the 'head in sand' approach.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:29 AM

Perhaps it's an opportunity for the return of the pub pianist?

Under the new Act - a (playable) piano is an entertainment facility and its playing illegal without entertainment permission. But those behind the drafting of the Act were not expecting the piano player to lug their own piano around.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:26 AM

It might be better to keep our heads down and hope that they (the management)don't notice that we are there.

R

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 04:12 AM

All the music and TVs have gone rom the pubs round us and it's still a BIG talking point. Our local has now lost the little Saturday afternoon racing fraternity who enjoyed a pint and a little flutter on the horses.

Perhaps it's an opportunity for the return of the pub pianist? I have suggested to my son that he has a trot round the pubs and see if anyone wants any music over Xmas. Only problem is lugging the upright round with him but it could be quite lucrative! (Visions of every pub with their own Liberace... scary thought)

I have decided to write to Smiths about what they intend to do about live music if/when that comes to a head in the coming year as they are aware that we play each week. I will let you know what the response is if I get a reply.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:22 PM

I would go quite a long way out of my way to find a pub with no jukebox or television or wallpaper music - for me it's a major advantage - and it would be a bonus if it's OK to play a few tunes now and again. If it's not live, it sucks.
Ray

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 02:08 PM

It shows a total disregard for their customers if you ask me.

There are other ways to protest than to make life miserable for your customers.

So what if it's gone up to £1,000 per annum, it was probably under priced to start with for a professioanl entertainment venue.

With an £800 per year increase (£1,000 per year fee) thats only £20 per week for a licence. A juke box will take that amount in a night.

I spend £50-£60 per week in my local Sam Smith's.

I'm never going back. That's already cost my them 3 x the increased fee even if no-one else leaves my local.

It's about time Sam Smiths came into the 21st Century and realised what customers expect:

Pool Tables
Up-to-date Juke Boxes / Video Juke Boxes
Large Screen Entertainment - ie. Plasma / Projection Screens for sporting events etc.
Sky TV
Decent Outside Seating areas with adequate heating
Decent modern interiors in good repair

Other pub chains provide these, there are 3 other pubs within 5 minutes walk of my Sam Smiths and at least 10 or 11 other pubs within 5 minutes drive.

Yes, Sam may be trying to keep beer prices low.

But everyone I know has said they'd rather pay and extra 5-10p per pint (which would still leave his beer by far the cheapest)and have all these facilities than have no facilities and very slightly cheaper beer.

Al.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,andee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

Has the world gone MAD!!!No music in my pub,no darts,no TV.
Sam Smiths do you want customers????

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Michael
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:54 AM

The landlady of my local Sam Smith told me yesterday, that was told by the brewery not to play any music from today on. The CD player and TV will be removed. Very sad. Maybe I have to look for a new local.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:27 AM

I had a quick break from Xmas shopping yesterday and had a pint in The Rugby on Dock street. All of the old men in there suppin' cheap mild wouldn't have known if a TV or background music was on anywhere. They just wanted to chat.............

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Steve, The Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:20 AM

Arrived at the pub Tuesday night to watch the results of the champions league football. When I arrived I noticed that the television had GONE!!!
The landlord said he had been ordered by Sam Smiths to remove any entertainment products. The bailiffs duly arrived and took the T.V. and the pubs background music system. Leaving only the bolts in the wall from the T.V. bracket.
The landlord offered to pay the £400 increased fee out of his own pocket but was told that he couldn't.
A crowd of about 20 people duly left the pub to go and watch the T.V. at another pub up the road.
I am sure this measure by the brewery wil cost the pubs a small fortune in lost revenue.
Is it me or have Sam Smiths gone MAD!!!!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Nice sentimemt Handed Pulled, however in theory some of the this money goes to the perfomer and writer who made not have the same generousity of spirit due to the fact they rely on this income, which is the other side of the coins to be considered when we are discussing the merits of this argument

or playing Devil's advocate !

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 10:40 AM

Many local artists are not members of organisations like PRS and would gladly allow a pub to play their own CD's as background music. harriWatts band will gladly allow Nellies to play their CD free of charge. By the way the beer is good and excellent value for money compared to most other pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:31 AM

Now for the good news! You won't even be safe now whilst tucking in to a 'Ruby Murray'.

As PPL and PRS are going to combine for this exercise - perhaps this accounts for the £1,000 cost proposed for 2006 - as this includes the PRS fee? if this is so - there will be a real threat to live music also.....

For decades, anyone wanting to play live or recorded music in public premises in the UK has had to deal separately with PRS for their music licence and PPL for their sound recordings licence. Now, the organisations that represent composers & publishers of music [PRS] and the record companies and performers [PPL] have come together to promote the use of music in public places and give some new music users a one stop shop for their music licences.

Under the banner of "The Power of Music", PPL & PRS will use trade & local advertising combined with direct mail, telemarketing and field marketing to reach new customers from next week. The first marketing campaign is planned for Indian Restaurants and Takeaways. In a first for both collecting societies, the accompanying advertising, mail and telephone campaigns will be multi-lingual, encompassing the two most common languages from the Indian sub-continent as well as English.

Early next year, Power of Music will embark on geographically based campaigns for individual postcode areas and the Top 500 companies in the UK who use music in the workplace.

Said Clive Bishop, PPL director of operations, "We are trying to make it easier for music users to get their PPL and PRS licences and to get all the information they need from one source." PRS performance sales director, Clive Thomas, added, "Music is a powerful business tool that really benefits enterprises of all shapes and sizes. Our aim is to bring that message to thousands of businesses that need our licences, with as little red tape as possible, thus creating a substantially user friendly environment"
Contact: Adrian Crookes, PRS, 020 7 306 4230 or Jill Drew, PPL, 020 7 534 1245

http://www.thepowerofmusic.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 09:19 AM

The PPL website

http://www.ppluk.com/

They have a tie-up with EFDSS - details here.
The PPL licence and your club
http://www.efdss.org/ppl.htm

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 05:40 PM

Not sure that I follow that this move makes live music any cheaper. It may mean that the total pub running costs will be a little less perhaps, at least for next year for Samuel Smiths and others who may follow their example. However, this fee (apart from perhaps buying the CDs) is all it costs to provide bckground recorded music.

To provide live music, on top of all the other costs to run the pub and the PRS fee - pubs still need to find the money to pay live performers.

This move by Samuel Smiths - not to pay the current fee for a year, looks to be a protest and probably will be an effective one. If others follow this example - PPL will certainly feel the pinch in 2005 and may have to re-think the £1,000 fee proposed for 2006.

It could be that Samuel Smiths may apply for the licence again - if the proposed increase does not happen - then again they may find that the majority of their customers prefer to drink and not to have to shout over background music, I know I do. PPL may prove to have shot themselves in the foot.

My concern is that no distinction is being made between recorded background music and live music in pubs. And that live music may suffer as a result of the general agreement I can foresee - that banning music in pubs is a good idea, or at least not a bad one.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

Yes, my mistake, PPL, not PRS. So in fact in this respect live music will be cheaper for pubs. They will still need PRS, but not PPL.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 08:06 AM

It's sadly true, my local nellies in beverley has had to stop, but this also means it will see less of me and my mates, as going out for a pint in an atmosphere of music we like was a key point to are nites out. Now it means will be going to Hull to hear the music we like, this is a sad case as i love nellies but without the music the atmosphere will go and eventually many of its drinkers will also.

To Sam Smiths i hope you see the error of your ways before your profits go to low and you have to start closing your pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Not apparently a PRS issue either but one for Phonographic Performance Limited [PPL].

Quiet pint returns as pubs ban music.
Exclusive by Brendan Williams
Daily Mirror Friday 3 December 2004.

Hundreds of pubs have banned background music because of a huge rise in licence fees to play the tunes.

Brewers Samuel Smith have ordered landlords to switch off sound systems after it was announced costs could soar by 500 per cent.

Bosses refused to say why the ban was imposed. But it is thought to be in protest at the price rises by Phonographic Performance Limited, the body which makes sure record companies receive royalties.

At the moment a large pub pays £214 a year for a music licence, but that will go up to £1,000 under a new rates system which comes into force in 2006.

Yorkshire-based Samuel Smith, which has around 200 pubs, is believed to be the first brewery to ditch music over the fees. The move has been met with a mixed reception by landlords. Some claim customers will stay away, others believe many drinkers will be glad to have a quiet pint.

One said: "It's a mistake. At this time of year people will be coming in for Christmas lunches and like a bit of festive background music".

But a Samuel Smith regular declared: "Thank God. Its nice to have a quiet pint without music blaring."

Jill Drew of PPL said: "On a weekly basis the cost of playing music in pubs is not that much."

ENDS

The danger here is that the Daily Mirror does not seem to think that there is any other form of music than recorded background music and makes no distinction about exactly what Samuel Smiths ahve 'ditched'.

Many of us may welcome the absence of so-called background recorded music blaring out – but would not welcome the absence of the many forms of live music that struggle to survive in our smaller pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:03 AM

It may have been in the news but I could not find anything online about any attempt to increase fees for recorded music – perhaps someone could oblige with this information?

The following however, is a site about PRS and folk music.

http://www.tomcc.freeserve.co.uk/musicmkfiles/PRS/prs.htm

I did find this about the concern about total costs.

MP speaks out on rateable value increase
The Publican Published 3rd December 2004

MP for Brentwood and Ongar Eric Pickles, has expressed concern about the increases in rateable value on the ability of licensees to run their pubs.
Licensees in his constituency have slammed the increases of up to 30 per cent and say it will have a significant impact on the costs of running their premises.
Mr Pickles said: "Such a large increase in rateable value could have a direct impact on the annual costs of running a pub, club or bar unless the rate charged in the pound drops significantly.
"These increases are on top of potential 1800 per cent increases in fees for licences and other increased costs through new legislation being introduced by the Government."

ENDS
I think I am correct in saying that the level of the new Licensing Act fees will be banded on the premises ratable value.

I cannot see that the effect of all these increases are going to encourage many small pubs to pay musicians to provide live music.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:36 AM

If it is a question of total costs for licensees and pubs - then it probably matters little which particular aspect is at issue. But you can plainly see that there is squeeze being applied that threatens to increase the total cost of running their pubs and affect the current profit levels and all aspects of their operation.

But is this rise (in addition to the costs of the new licensing requirements) sought only for the fee for recorded music? How hard are they trying to increase the fee and who has the final say in this?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 PM

The facts have been in the papers. Well, insofar as anything in the papers is fact.

It is not a PEL issue, but PRS. PRS is trying to put the pub canned music licence relating to the performing right in the music up from about 250 per year to abour £1,000 or more per year. Smiths think this is too much.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 03:52 PM

If it appears that way then it is probably because I have not been directly addressing that issue or you have not read what I have said here very well. There were folk who were concerned mainly about the possible cost and the effects of this. That was not my main objection but cost remains a factor - as this thread possibly shows.

As you will not have to pay it - if you are not a licensee - you probably never did have to fear it. Those that do have to pay may see this issue and the level of the fee differently.

If you own a number of pubs and currently pay £10 a year but will have to now pay £250 for each one (before you even think about paying for a live act or bouncers) - costs do remain a factor and are unlikely to increase the level of live music.

If by 'we' you mean those of us who make and enjoy live music in pubs - we still may have quite a lot to fear. If the pubs choose not to apply - there will not be any live music permitted them as applying this permission remains optional. And pubs are not the only areas of concern.

My council are having to obtain Premise Licenses on their outdoor property just to enable the Punch and Judy shows that have taken place on the beach since the place first became a resort.

All the 'stirring up' may not have prevented the worst of the Act but it has resulted in the legislation not being quite as bad as first intended and may also have had the effect of ensuring that the suggested fee levels are not higher. But while there remains pressure from Local Authorities to increase them - there is no guarantee that these levels will not rise.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 02:59 PM

Shambles:
It appears from your post above that you have been stirring us up unecessarily for the last few years.
You seem to indicate that all the costs you have been claiming will prevent the performance of live music will not have that effect at all:
The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

If your latest post is true, it seems we have nothing to fear!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

At the moment - for a pub licence just serving to serve alcohol and no late night extensions etc - it costs £30 for 3 years. Or ten pound a year. this will change in February 2005

The exact new fees have not been finalised and set in stone but if you ignore the cost of the one-off Premises Licence charge, (say £500) valid for the life of the business and the cost of the Personal Licence valid for 10 years - there will be an annual inspection fee of say £250 to be paid whether entertainment permission is in place or not.

Now for a chain this size - the increase when multiplied by each pub - is considerable and it may well be that in order to enable them to continue - some cost-cutting measures will be required.

you could argue that there is plenty of money still to be made but the key may be competition. For some of the larger pubs currently providing live music or night clubs paying very larges annual sums for the Public Entertainment Licenses and being able to open late because of this payment - will be far better off under the new Act.

They will be in competition not only for custom but also for staff.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

Aren't we in danger of leaving our american chums out of this thread.
I was always of the opinion that Sam Smiths didn't travel too far from Tad and was suprised a few years ago to find a pint of Sams in Bangor (Maine)It tasted great but then again there wasnt any serious competition!!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:39 AM

If you consider the vast outlay for providing the various licences for it's managed houses, this may simply be a cost cutting exercise in order for Smith's to continue as one of the cheapest retailers of beer etc. It will also allow them to compete with Weatherspoon's on a level playing field should that be their remit. However as a devotee of the Plough during Whitby Folk Week I fervently hope they continue to allow live music (although I have to say some of the sessions in the Plough only loosely fall into this category!)

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:58 AM

Nick

You seem to earlier suggest that not many were licensed for live music which if true would probably mean that there were only these that were able to provide live music. Have we established if your your pub has a PEL?

With the new Licensing Act set to come into force in February 2005, it may be a good idea to find out if your pub and others in this chain are going to apply for entertainment permission. If they do not intend to do this - the future of any live music in these pubs is very uncertain.

If they are thinking not to apply - due as you possibly indicate to concerns about PRS charges - it will be interesting to know. If it were the case - it would be important to inform your MP and get them to inform the DCMS's Live Music Forum, which is set up to study the effects of the new Act on live music.

I don't want to start a rumour either but one of the feared effects is that for the first time under the Act - PRS and similar bodies will have a (Council supplied) list of all premises where live music takes place - unlike now where their inspectors have to visit - as it will not be able to take place in any pub without this permission. It could be that a chain like this one - may see that having to pay for PRS fees in all its pubs - is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Of course all this is pure speculation - without some firm evidence.

Perhaps a letter to them would be best and a reply may serve to put your mind at rest - or not? But at least you would have some firm evidence one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:32 AM

A thought struck last night. Could it be that Sams are trying to make their pubs unattractive to the young at a time when binge drinking etc is a problem? With no alcopops - own brand spirits and beers - and no music are they going out of their way to distance themselves from the 'branded shots/fancy bottle brigade' who frequent the 'trendier' drinking spots?

The Kings Arms in York - famous Sams pub for being underwater when the Ouse rises (quite fun standing on beer crates with the water lapping round your feet!) - is now out of the 'Micklegate run' at weekends I believe. For those who have never been to York, Micklegate is filled with bars etc and at weekends has scores of youths trawling from pub to pub for the evening, followed by peeing in the doorways and smashing the odd window. You probably have something similar in your area!

Out of interest are there many Samuel Smiths pubs that regularly do live music round the country - I know of Nellies but is it widespread?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:37 AM

Treewind ......... whilst considering the introduction of Jukeboxes as a significant event in the slow painful death of English Public Houses (and I do distinguish them from Scottish, Welsh or Irish bars)
even I have to say that on occasion I have come across one or two that actually have music on that would appeal to the most ardent dyed in the wool folkie

I'll go and wash my mouth out with soap shall I ........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:32 AM

Manitas, we're talking juke boxes - what's music got to do with it?
[evil grin]
Anahata