Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 08:26 AM

One of my 'local' pubs (Since closed down!) regularly had a Disco on a Saturday evening , at which the most common sound heard was the Landlady screaming " Stop that @*)(^%$ Dancing !" One wonders WHY she
would book a Disco , when NOT having a dancing Licence !!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:38 AM

" in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without."

Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast, eh?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:29 AM

I seem to recall that the rythymic beat of music increases the heart rate and the production of adrenaline, this combined with a volume of sound sufficient to debar clear verbal communication led to conflict through misintereptation of normal anthropological nuances, for example were a wave of hello would be construed as a gesture of aggression or defiance. Of course one would consider that alcohol played it's role in this, however Prof Smith conducted various evaluations across a wide range of bars and clearly came to the conculsion that it was the music (volume and fast pumping rythym)and NOT the alcohol that caused MOST of the conflict.

........And yes Treewind, whenever I asked friends to help me carry out research I was frequently inundated with offers of assistance to the extent where research flew out of the window and we all got pissed instead ! Ah Happy Days

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:35 AM

Subject: DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs
From: The Shambles - PM
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:15 AM

From today' Guardian. PLEASE HELP!

Fancy footwork lands pubs in the dock

Colin Blackstock
Friday November 22, 2002
The Guardian

The pub owners tried everything to stop it including putting up signs, rearranging the furniture and even asking people to refrain. But it was all to no avail: council officials diagnosed outbreaks of spontaneous dancing, and the owners were fined £5,000.

Officials from Westminster city council initially spotted four people dancing to piped music at the Pitcher and Piano pubs in Soho, central London. Later, as the rhythm took control, that figure rose to five. On another visit as many as 11 people were dancing. Something had to be done.

The council took action against Wolverhampton and Dudley Breweries, which runs the two pubs, where customers had been spotted getting down to the piped music.

With their patrons caught red-footed, the company pleaded guilty to not having a proper licence which allows dancing.

It was fined £2,500 for each offence, plus costs of £1,600 at a London magistrates court on Wednesday.

Derek Andrews, Wolverhampton and Dudley's managed house chief, said the company had tried everything in its power to stop customers from breaking into dance, even going so far as to turn the music off, but people still continued to dance.

Council officials have also served two written warnings on another pub in Wardour Street, Soho, about people found "swaying", according to the licensed trade's newspaper the Publican.

Under current law, dancing is only allowed if premises have been granted a public entertainment licence.

Bob Currie, director of the community protection department at Westminster council, said in a letter quoted in the Publican: "Dancing could be described as the rhythmic moving of the legs, arms and body usually changing positions within the floor space available and whether or not accompanied by musical support."

ENDS

No this was not a joke..........

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:24 AM

Possibly one of the factors with juke boxes is that although folk can listen to the music - without specific licensing permission - dancing to this music - which at one time was pretty much thought the entire object of this juke box music - was forbidden.

Having loud rock and roll on a juke box that you are prevented from dancing to - is hardly likely to cause good feeling and orderly conduct.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 06:16 AM

Raggytash, your friends must have envied you for choosing a research project that necessitated visiting a statistically significant number of pubs!
(not that I remember needing any excuses for that when I was a student...)

I'm not suprised at the findings. Noise causes stress, and stress makes people drink more (I wonder if that's one reason why they have juke boxes?), and the combination can hardly encourage orderly conduct.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Perhaps it has been. The Licensing Act 2003 contains an exemption from the requirment for entertainment permission for the playing recorded music that is 'incidental'. This word is not defined in the legislation but the statutory guidance does refer to juke boxes as an example and specifically the volume at which the juke box was played. If it was played a low level it could be considered as 'incidental' and exempt - at higer levels it would not be..........   

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

If your pub does currently have a Public Entertainment Licence there is no need for the management structure to be concerned. If your pub does not have one and there are more than (the same) two 'performers' making music - they probably would be concerned.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:25 AM

Sorry to be a bit of a bore on this but, when I did my thesis for my honours degree almost 20 years ago it was entitled "The Regulation of Alcohol and Social Control, a Case Study of the English Public House"
In it I related the incidence of violent conduct in public house's with and without Juke Boxes, in bars with Juke Boxes the incidence of violence was far greater than those without.(Yes, I did look at the demographics of the clientele) One of my conclusions was that juke boxes, in particular those played at volume, created sitautions were tempers were likely to flair, this conclusion was also arrived at by Prof Michael Smith of Bristol University although I have to admit to meeting and discussing this with him.
Perhaps in the intervening years someone has heeded the wisdom of Prof Smith (I doubt if my thesis has ever been taken of the shelf at Bradford University)and thought to apply his logic in an attempt to reduce pub violence

Just a thought

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: muppett
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:37 AM

When there's nowt folky appening in Whitby the Juke box in the plough is source great entertaintment, by eck I had some good sessions in there with my local friends dancing to the old clasics and singing away to them. They'll be a few complaints if it goes.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:24 AM

"including a friday night where 700+ pints went down"

I resemble that evening come morning....excellent camp site

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:11 AM

Was I there? Strange all this, because Nellies in Beverley does have a jukebox, but it is tucked away in the pool room. Incidentally it is full of the most God awful 'heavy metal'

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:02 AM

The management structure of the company is well aware to MD level that we have been playing there for 2+ years - one of the things it shows in is in the takings.

True to say that over the last two years the biggest takings at the bar have always been on nights when there has been music on (including a friday night where 700+ pints went down - I can name the main culprits who frequent this forum as well (!!)). When you consider that the pub is based in a village with approximately 100 inhabitants (of whom 10 perhaps use it regularly) surrounded by larger villages each with their own pub/pubs and that it does minimal food you can see that anything that provides regular drinking trade is not to be sniffed at.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:44 AM

If these pubs are not currently licensed for live music - it may not be such a good idea to inform the bosses that you are holding live music in some of their pubs.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:37 PM

Same feeling from me Re Nellies, maybe we should all get together and lobby the board.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:57 PM

Well I spoke with a representative of the brewery and (to quote) "for the moment" we are welcome to play and she wished us well for this evening and hoped we had a good time - which is nice. And this after consultation with her bosses.

The general consensus seems to be that either it may be down to PRS - presumably an unwillingness to renew which is hence why it won't come into effect for a while; or it is a whim of chairman as he did when he took the decision to remove alcopops.

If it is the former then the first time that Sams have a complaint over live music (which few Sams pubs are licensed for I believe) presumably there exists the same possibility of a blanket decision affecting us all.

For those of you who have visited our local pub (Blacksmiths Arms in Farlington, N Yorks) you will know why we rather treasure it.

Shameless plug at the end - everyone always welcome on a wednesday evening for a singaround and play!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:48 AM

J.D.Wetherspoons pubs are totally music free. No muzak, no juke box, no live music. (No morris dancing, by implication).

If, as it now appears, Sam Smiths are banning all recorded music but allowing live music, this is truly good news. I wonder what prompted them to make that decision?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 04:38 AM

No muzac, can't be a bad thing.

eric

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:29 AM

I hope they've kept the live music, Nick. Good luck with the gig.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 03:26 AM

Most of the Sams pubs round where we are have a cd player or something just to play some background - apparently those are not ok either. And (another unconfirmed thing) I did also hear that TVs will be gone by end of year though I can't say that concerns me.

Still if live music is ok (though I have been told in one pub it isn't) that's great. HAven't heard from anyone from Sams themselves yet - hopefully someone may phone me back today

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:43 AM

No music?? Like I said in the smoking thread, pretty soon no talking & no drinking!

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:41 AM

If I contracted to move the juke boxes that aren't there to some place else they won't be, how much do ya think a contract like that would be worth in Euros?

Bruce 'Halliburton' Murdoch

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 01:49 AM

So the news is, that the juke boxes - they don't have - are going to have to go?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

I was also of the opinion that Sam Smiths pubs never had a jukebox as a matter of company policy.
Quack!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:20 PM

I didnt think any Sam Smith pubs ever had juke boxes I thought it was just one of those things that Humphrey didnt approve of, like advertising or selling Guiness

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Could be the thin end of the wedge for the new/proposed legislation.Or am I just being dumb.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:12 PM

I wonder what the reasoning is behind this move?

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:47 PM

I have just phoned my landlady ,   She says that you are right with the juke box having to go, She has had the letter of confirmation, jukebox out pre Christmas.   But there is no problem with live music. Panic over i'd have had to sell up and move to a new venue,   and oh the price of a pint i'd then have to pay.

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: oombanjo
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:30 PM

|Nellies In Beverley is a Sams where the folk club was on last night.   The Sunday sessions are 2nd 3rd (and if) the 5th weekend of the month. The Jazz club is Wednesday and there is a regular saltza?
night on one friday in the month. But I will check with my landlady,

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

One of the carolling pubs near Sheffield is SS. Ill be ther Saturday and try and remember to ask.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:22 AM

I have tried to get clarification from the pub but I can't get an answer at reception/area manager/her boss/managing director level - apparently they are all unavailable.

Seems a simple enough question but is apparently being dealt with at an area + level.

I will let you know when someone calls me.

Perhaps people in other areas might have more luck?

Samuel Smiths number is 01937 832225

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:13 AM

If true, that is truly disastrous. Wonderful ale, used to have a folk club in a Sam Smith's pub in Lincolnshire (many years ago).

Subject: RE: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:02 AM

If you heard it in a pub - then it must be true!

Subject: Have Sam Smiths pubs banned ALL music?
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

I heard today in a local pub that as of yesterday Samuel Smiths pubs had banned ALL music - including juke boxes / behind bar music / live / everything.

Does anyone know if this is true?

Be aware - this is based on ONE pub so there may be more/less to it than this.

I AM NOT TRYING TO START A RUMOUR - just seeking clarification. I will phone the brewery a little later as - as a few of you know - we sing in a pub locally and I would like to know before I turn up tomorrow and get told I can't!