Irish/Scottish/English

Subject: Irish/Scottish/English style of tune playing
From: Torctgyd
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:10 AM

Considering the close geographical, political and family links why have Irish tunes turned into all about playing quickly and fitting in as much ornamentation as possible whereas English tunes have relatively little ornamentation and more emphasis on the rythmn with Scottish tunes somewhere in the middle? As an example an English melodeon player of my acquaintence went to an Irish session and played some tunes which went down very well. When asked what the tunes were the regulars were astounded to find that he had been playing standard Irish tunes but in an English style. The regulars hadn't recognised them!!

Is this a modern thing? Down to competitions (of which there seem to be many in the Irish tradition) or due to the many players in the tradition in Ireland pushing each other to the limits? Or is this a gross over simplification?

Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Davetnova
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:36 AM

Maybe it's just down to national temprament. At the extremes you have the Irish, fiery and passionate. The English, slow and plodding. And of course the Scots, extremely well balanced.:-)

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Splott Man
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 08:52 AM

I take it you're a celt, Davetnova.

I wouldn't call John Kirkpatrick or Rod Stradling slow and plodding... I could go on...

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST,Ish*gwelshmountainwomengogogoch
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:08 AM

Irish/Scottish/English...????

WELSH !!!!

I win.. I spotted the deliberate mistake..

The Welsh have such a subtle and understated indigenous style of tune playing
that nobody actually knows what it sounds like..
not even any taff folkies themselves..

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:56 AM

Perhaps Folk singing is understated in the Welsh genre as they have such a brilliant abundance of good tenors and choirs.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:16 PM

I feel strongly that it's the musicians, not the tunes that tend to set the level of ornamentation.
I find that the entheuasiam, experience and energy of the musicians are the important factors in how 'plain' the tune is. ik now dance tunes best, but am sure it's true in a broader sense. Also the size and 'freindliness' of the audiance...

Case study:
In a regular expert class (Scotish country dance), we have a few regular accordianists, from England and Scotland, playing for a small group of freinds. Tunes very rarely get played straight, regardless of nation origins, of the accordianist, or the tune.

Importance: People > circumstances > tunes > countries of origin

bunnahabhain

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:27 PM

It's been a long day, and I don't have the energy to go into the 'Welsh' thing raised above, but it's worth noting that the Welsh have next to no ornamentation (just the occasional passing note) in song and very little in tunes. However, if you can get hold of a book, "Welsh Music History 1" (Ed. John Harper, Univ. Wales Press, Cardiff 1996) there's a good essay by Phyllis Kinney, "An Irish/Welsh Tune Family" tracing the Welsh variations on "St Patrick's Day in the Morning" and giving 22 Welssh examples - some which are quite amazing (if you know Welsh songs).

siân

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:30 PM

The ornamentation/speed thing in Ireland is often regional variance, also as someone above mentioned, differences between musicians on a stylistic basis.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:37 PM

Also the Irish know how to have a good time and let themselves go! 'Jaysus I can't wait to hear the next one.'

The English are too busy queuing at the bar and the Scots are hiding in the lavs until the next round is in.

Ducks..............

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:52 PM

What Bunnahabhain said.

Almost.

It is not just the musicians it is the context of expectations

I see the same phenomenon in American bluegrass music.

Technically skilled musicians play fast and with extreme ornamentation because they can and it impresses other performers and gets the applause. It seems to take a long time for a technically proficient musician to decide that less is more. Some never do.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:53 PM

You ducked to late guest m'dear the english poured a gallon of ale over you (dont worry it wont do any more damage than water) the scot threw a bucket of thistles at you and the irish wrote a tune about it. Just be glad you didn't insult the welsh, you wouldnt want to know what they can do with a leek.   TFIC

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:15 PM

But the speed thing is regional too. Ask any Donegal fiddler.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:27 PM

Also, it appears the originator of the thread isn't taking the breadth of regional styles into account either, like Cape Breton fiddling.

Rather, they are dividing fiddle styles into national styles, which of course don't exist.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 03:31 PM

I also know musicians who would say speed is determined by the player, based upon the tune. Some tunes sound grand when played fast, although as the original player pointed out, if played at a different speed and given a different mood and setting, the same tune would sound quite different, but equally as pleasing.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Boab
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:22 AM

Guest 12.37---Read it four minutes ago---just now stopped laughing. I'll be home in Scotland to hide in the lavvies over Christmas and Ne-erday.
"Barman! there's a wee fly in ma whusky"!
"So sorry sir, I'll get you a replacement!"
"Och no---it's only that its wee feet are still touching the bottom!"
Aye --the English pubs serve whiskies as "wee" as that!!

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:21 PM

There's a bit of a dispute ongoing in Irish trad circles about the "speed thing." At its core, the traditionalists point out that the music originated primarily as dance music and should be played at a "danceable" pace. The "other side" tends toward the view that a faster pace allows for demonstrations of virtuosity. You'll find a wide distribution of ages and skill levels in both camps. Like so many other great debates, threr really doesn't have to be an "either or" solution. Both are likely here to stay, so pick the pace appropriate to the audience.

Subject: RE: Irish/Scottish/English
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:38 PM

One big difference between folk and pop musicianship has always been that folk performers don't seek applause for flash. They have no "future gigs" or record contracts in mind and don't care much about impressing people with "what they can do." When great folk performers like Jeannie Robertson or Frank Proffitt or Mississippi John showed their virtuosity, it wasn't the pop kind ("Hey! Look what I'm doign now!") that the commercial audience expected. They just did their thing with virtuoso sensitivity to the music and to the past and hoped we liked it.