Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:22 PM

Beast also received a letter yesterday from Humphrey Smith which curiously had my name in the Dear .... bit, so poor man is confused as I haven't received a reply to my last letter.

From the point of view of our pub it was VERY negative and the tone was increasingly terse. I will post a copy of the text once I get a copy tomorrow. Not looking good for the survival of us in our present surroundings which is a bugger.

See what you think when I post it.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:52 AM

You'll have to have a chaperone to drink in a Sam Smith's pub next....

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

Will I still be able to go in wearing a frock like your two chums at Farlington then Beast?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

Nick

Given the sad situation and the blunt reply - it may seem to go without saying but given the Government's intention to review any detremental effects of the new Act upon live music - it may prove helpful to record.

As you are writing to them at this point - could you get them also to confirm that none of Samuel Smiths pubs (and how many that is) will applying for Premises Licence permission to provide regulated entertainment - under the new Licensing Act 2003?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:36 PM

Yes indeed they are - in particular the Traveller's Rest at Oughtibridge.

In fact in 1994 a new landlord decided he didn't want the carols and we migrated to a nearby boozer (The Clock Inn) which was glad to have an extra three grand or so through his tills at Xmas time. (I say "we" but I am not a regular, just know the people).

There is also another pub not too far away that has a carol session which is not at all publicised and they might take it on....

If it happens then I will try and post appropriately. And I hope to see a few of the people involved at the end of the month. Clearly an appeal to Sam Smiths will not be heeded and is a waste of time and paper.

Best regards,


Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

Sorry that last post was in reply to D.McG 04/05 05:43.

Dave

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

The chairman wrote to Nick - " our small brewery's whole strategy and objective is to keep our brewery open and producing ".
What he doesn't seem to appreciate is that NO LIVE MUSIC = NO CUSTOMERS = REDUCED PRODUCTION = LAY OFFS AT THE BREWERY!!
If there's no folk club at NELLIES on a Monday night I for one will not turn up just to drink four pints and keep Sam Smiths in business. I will follow the club to a new location.
The Jazz Club will go to a new location.
The Salsa class will go to a new location.
The Sunday session will go to a new location.
Mr H Smith will in effect be giving his trade away to his opposition!! Hows that for business acumen!

Jake

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 08:31 PM

And thosewho like a quiet pint or two, in ambient surroundings will
love it.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 02:35 AM

If some folk do not like live music in their pubs - they currently have a choice - for there are many at the moment that do not have any. It would be nice to still have that choice.

There is little point for all concerned in taking away this choice but that is what is happening, and partly by making the provision of live music more unlikely by making the overall pub running costs more expensive.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a situation where all pubs were automatically made safe for the public and able to safely stage small-scale music without first needing the various permissions - (and for all those other bodies to have a piece of the action). And if all pubs COULD provide their customers with what they wanted and it was a matter left for individual licensees if wished to provide it?

Wouldn't it be nice if our Government recognised that any increase in overall pub running costs is unlikely to provide an increase in the provision of live music and addressed it? Instead of blindly still maintaining that the new Licensing Act 2003 - will increase opportunities for live music.

PPS/PPL seem to have recognised this by putting up their fees for the remainder of pubs who will choose to apply for permission to provide regulated entertainment. taking the view no doubt - that in order to stand-still - they need to increase the revenue as there will be less pubs paying their fees.

This move has simply further discouraged this pub chain from providing any music in its pubs - I am sure that others will follow - if the issue is not addressed?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM

Much as I agree with Shambles about the Licensing act and its impact....and the PRS/PPL cost increase.......the Sam Smiths situation also shows up the balatant profiteering that still exists in the licened trade......particularly by some of the big brewers and the Pub Co`s. If Sams can brew and sell a pint of decent cask bitter for under £1.30, and still make a good profit........then where does the other 70-90p go that you pay to have the equivalent in most other high street pubs?
Yes....some will go to pay for the "Sky Sport" and other add ons which Sam Smiths pubs choose to do without, but having had some experience with the licenced trade I know the outrageous rents that many landlords are expected to pay over to many of the Pub Co` chains, just to be able to keep trading each month....and then having to pay a third more than the open market price to buy beer from a tied contract with one of the big brewerys. It is no wonder that pubs change hands faster than ever before and that pub closures are a regular occurance. Someone is being very short sighted and it is not just the government ....though they have created the current situation in both the Licence fiasco and in the way they split up the tied houses a few years ago. The Pub Co`s are now property companies and only interested in short term returns......how much can they squeeze out of the current Lease holder in their pubs before they give up and the next one(mug?)comes along.
All this is combining to kill the traditional British pub......a unique institution and part of the fabric of local comunities. Soon all that there will be left are housing estates and supermarkets.....the driving out of live music in pubs is yet another symptom of the death throws of the British Pub....RIP. By the way....we will have to have the wake in someones front room cos the local is shut......could someone bring a few cans from ASDA on the way?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: John C.
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM

Let's look on the bright side! We all now live in a world where 'market forces' have free rein (hurraahh!!!) and all of us happy consumers have got lots of choice...well, that's the theory, isn't it? Hang on...something's not quite right here...just run that market forces/more choice thing past me again...

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

And anyway why should WE have lovely cosy warm pubs with real fires lovely real ales and fun live music, when the rest of the world have bars selling larger and have duke boxes and 20 ft TV screens. It's not fair on everyone else now we can all go out and not enjoy ourselves.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 15 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM

Looking on the bright side -

Two of us went out last night and found two homes for us to sing in, so life goes on. Hopefully the place we choose to sing in will benefit from us and us from them - and hopefully it will be as good a venue as the last.

Bit of luck some of you will come visit in our new place once we get settled in, I'll post about it in time. Hopefully we can have another weekend or two like we did last year at the Blacksmiths?


Hopefully Nellies survives.


And Guest...

"And those who like a quiet pint or two, in ambient surroundings will
love it. "
You might be on the wrong forum. Try http://www.licensedcemeteries.com/forum to chat with your friends

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 12:08 AM

Here is a letter i'm going to send to sam smiths=
Dear Mr Sam Smith,
Hello, I reckon you are a big load of shit, and this is why-
I heard that you telling people not to play music in youre pubs anymore, this is a stupid idea, and tyhis is why, people like music, and like to listen to it, and another thing is, i went last year to a pub in near york, called Farlinton arms or something, and it was really nice, and loads of music people went, from allover the place, like hull and beverley etc, and anyway=music people drink loads, and never make trubble, ie big sport screen pubs always get trubble, fighting etc from trubble makers, i been going to music pubs for more than 20 years, and i never seen 1 fight yet, so this prooves you are stupid, and i hope you go bankrupt, and i wont drink in your pubs anymore [i drink loads, so youve lost a lot of money].

your's sincerly
john evans.


I havent got any stamps, but i'll post it on monday, wehn post office opens.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

What a mess the government is in over licensing and pub hours. Now talking about he pub licence costing even more to cover local authorities concerns about policing and enforcing the many regulations. All this from legislation that started as de-regulation, not increased regulation.

I am not sure where we are going. The tories are in a mess and did not provide much opposition at the time. The lib dems were completely fooled over the issue of acoustic accompaniment to Morris dancing.

Looks like the best bet is a round of front rooms with cans from Tesco?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:30 PM

Looks like the best bet is a round of front rooms with cans from Tesco?

And an ABSO when the neighbours complain about the noise and the parking.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Bassic
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM

So its back to the old traditional ways then is it? Blacked up or coloured faces and disguises......lightening "raids"........and dissapear in to the crowds before the "authorities" spot you! If they want to spent £1000 to DNA test my pint glass then I see that as a victory!!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Blowzabella
Date: 16 Jan 05 - 07:11 PM

You might have a point there Bassic - all things come around again, eh? Our future is in our past...?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:45 AM

Nick,
                      Let us know where you smock wearers end up, and I will try and organise another raiding party from sunny Hull.
             Nothumbrian smallpipes, the true path!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:06 AM

This could be the year of the Shed or perhaps the start of a new era

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:34 AM

John from Hull ....... put that letter where it belongs ..... in the bin, all it will do is antagnonise someone who is probably suspecting he has made a rash decision. Experience tells me that when someone is in this frame of mind any criticism is seized upon as a justification of their original decision, if you tell Humphrey Smith that you think he is " a big load of shit" he will see it is confirmation that he is indeed thinking straight and that the rest of us are misguided fools who don't know what we're talking about. By all means write to him expressing your concerns but do not blame and do not complain both these are counter-productive

Cheers

Raggy

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Gedpipes
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:50 AM

Sensible comments Raggy. Well worth heeding

NSP a path....of sorts

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:03 AM

Yes, john, please take heed.

This is one factor that will ultimately speak volumes to Humphrey Smith.

On Saturday night last, during the peak hours of 7pm and 8pm, the total number of customers in the Blacksmith's Arms, Farlington was 2.

On a typical Wednesday night, when there is music, there are at least 15 people in.

Quite how this contributes to keeping the Brewery open and safeguarding jobs I don't know.

Most businesses these days think CUSTOMER first, EMPLOYEES second becuase they know that considering the needs of the former, safeguards the needs of the latter. This is not difficult. But it appears to have passed Humphrey Smith by.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:21 AM

I feel sure sir john will not have sent his letter, it will have been done with his normal "tung in cheek"

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:28 AM

geust is right, i decided not to send it, can't be arsed, and i am not willing to waste a stamp on the miserable basterds.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:33 AM

No John, you should send a letter, we need as many people as possible to write to Humphrey Smith, if enough of us write he may reconsider, if we don't he will continue on this path (which as we know is not the true path!)

So get the paper out, be arsed, it is not a waste of a stamp

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:34 AM

make yer mind up!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:10 AM

John You know quite well what I am saying, you must write to him, what you must not do is slag him off, in nay way shape or form, that is counter productive

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:14 AM

"tong in cheek" raggy old chap me thinks

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:16 AM

Nah ......... Tongs in Bradford

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:17 AM

Humphrey Smith is Martin Gibson

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:21 AM

You are all misspelling tongue! Terrible!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 06:21 AM

Tong is also in Kent and Shropshire ........ must move about, week here, week there ........

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:39 AM

I got some hair tongs for Christmas

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:55 AM

Ted -

We are at the Highwayman in Sheriff Hutton this Wednesday in the back room from 8.15pm. We'll see how it goes.

We also have the offer to play in another local pub which we may try next week.

Hopefully one or the other could cope with a weekend later in the year with a bit of luck but we'll see once we're a little more established.

Have also got a third pub interested but that is lower down the list and would be less of a draw.

Highwayman or the other will work out fine I am sure

Come and join us sometime when you fancy it would be good to see you all again.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:03 AM

Out of interest has anything further been said about Nellies? There always seemed to be a discrepancy between what the Area Manager said to me and what people seemed to know in the pub.

It did not seem a wise idea to push it too much or enquire specifically about a pub away from us.

I HOPE it is not the case that Nellie's is affected. If it is I suggest you DELUGE Mr Smith from everyone. It would be tragic!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Bassic
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:08 AM

My understanding is that the Folk Club will be told tonight that they are going to loose their venue.........the Jazz club recieved similar news last Wednesday. :-( I hope I am wrong.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:24 AM

Good man Nick. We will see you soon. This licence business is infuriating, it's not like any of us make a penny out of playing in a pub. A stealth tax by any other name.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:25 AM

I understand the salsa dance group were told that last week was the last

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 09:58 AM

Ted -

Nick said

"We are at the Highwayman in Sheriff Hutton this Wednesday in the back room from 8.15pm. We'll see how it goes"

You will have to come to visit us again as this is 3 miles nearer Beverley than Farlington.....

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:07 AM

Can't make it this week Beast old chap, but I am girding my loins for a visit soon.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:10 AM

Good - we don't want you THIS week! A new venue AND yuor presence might just be too much in one go. The Beast will be getting a nosebleed from having to prowl outside Farlington.

there might even be a standoff with the Beast of Sheriff Hutton

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:19 PM

Everyone in the Sunday session at Nellies was in elegaic mood as we suspected that it was our last session there.

Next weeks session is in the Sun and I suspect that Sams will have pulled the plug at Nellies by time the following session comes round at there.

We were talking about spreading the Sunday rota around to include The Tiger if and when Nellies is out of the circuit.

Suggestions were:

First Sunday at Monk's Walk as it now is
Second Sunday at the Sun (extra session)
Last Sunday at the Sun as it is now

3rd at a selection from Tiger/Hodgson's/Oddies

Any views on that?

R

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

You have my sympathy - it's very sad.

I think we had the same feeling at the Blacksmiths and that has nothing like the length of time or history associated with it, but still has a bunch of nice memories.

Are the Whitby pubs f~'**d too?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

For what it is worth here is a copy letterI have sent to Humphrey the Brewer

Live Music in Your Pubs.

I am greatly concerned about the decision to end music in Sam Smiths Pubs. Locally Nellies (White Horse) and Monks Walk in Beverley are affected and for Nellies 30 plus years of folk tradition have ground to a halt.

I appreciate you run a business and the PRS fees have increased greatly but traditional music in the main is exactly that – Traditional. The music is either original to the artist or ancient and no PRS fee is payable. To obtain a music licence under the 2003 legislation requires no extra payment – simply a declaration in the statement of purpose for the pub.   If this is expressed as traditional, jazz or whatever there is no fear from enraged locals thinking it is pop music with its heavy beat.

Most acoustic musicians play on otherwise quiet nights – Mondays, Tuesdays etc and in my experience very often outnumber "regulars" although can sometime attract others just to listen.

The "Sun" in Beverley, a rival house, on Tuesdays has far more musicians than regulars to the point when some nights that there is hardly enough room for musicians and no doubt will be delighted at yet more increase in trade as a consequence of your decision.

I wish your Brewery well and am all in favour of "independents" but I strongly feel that you have flung the baby out with the bathwater here, to the detriment of the pubs and breweries. I do hope you agree and might be persuaded to change your mind.

Yours faithfully






Humphrey Smith MD
Samuel Smiths Brewery
Tadcaster
North Yorkshire
LS24 9SB

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Pete Fletcher
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:04 PM

I don't think Monks Walk is a Smith's house!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From:
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

Hi there, my names Rob and I drink at Nellies a Sam Smiths pub in beverley.

Its propa crap as all music has been banned even to the extent that my friends ghetto blaster was removed from the pub. The duke box has gone and there is even rumours that the fruit machines quiz machines and pool tables will have to go - how pants is that.

I talked to the land lord and he said he wasnt sure but the loss of music (including the folk and jazz clubs which have been going for over 30 years ((last ones at the end of this month)) but he did say that it might be a protest from the brewery about the increase in prices of entertainment licences which has allegedley occured.

This is just speculation but from what i have heard it is definatley public entertainment licence related.

The whole situation is a crock of **** as now everyone sits in a quiet room and when the conversation stops there is an eerie silence with nothing but the extractor fan for ambience.

If any 1 knows of anything about licences please post as there may be light at the end of the currently boring sam smiths tunnel.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM

Under the new regime starting in about 2 weeks according to the Department of Culture Media and Sport, entertainment - music or whatever, will not cost anything else on top of the liquor licence. Juke Boxes etc do not need an entertainment licence but it is the cost of performing rights, who collect on behalf of he copywrite holders of music that have increased the fees and caused Sam Smiths to chuck out babies and bathwaters.

When takings drop maybe there will be a re think?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:08 AM

I thought it was the PRS licence that Humphrey Smith objected to? This will still be required under the new regime.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:08 AM

Yes but there are different types of requirement. By statute - no Premises Licence permission for regulated entertainment - then no regulated entertainment can take place.

But this optional permission will not directly cost Sam Smiths any more - if they apply with their initial Premises Licenses. This does not mean that they then have to provide any regulated entertainment - but they will then have the choice to provide it and the choice to pay for PRS/PPL or not.

What we have here is a situation where because they do not wish to pay for PRS/PPL - they appear to see little point in applying for entertainment permission. So as a result of this (protest) they will not be able to have any music - even music that PRS/PPL have no rightful claim on.

For PRS/PPL it must surely hold true that if they claim that payment is due to them for the playing of a particular piece of music - it should be up to them to prove this case? It may be true for recorded music but if the unpaid sessions consist of tradiional, orginal or other non-copyright material - there is nothing stopping Sam Smiths from providing this.

Except the lack of Premises Licence entertainment permission.