Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:29 AM

A friend we sing with has written to Smiths exactly on these lines (ie it costs you nothing to tick the box when you apply) but I don't think they have had a response. As he has taken the "there is no more music so that's it" stance, I would guess he doesn't see it as relevant.

I am still awaiting the promised response from PRS - it will be interesting to see what their view is. They are at the end of the day part of the problem/solution as well

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Flamenco ted who can't log in
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:19 AM

There was a news report on Radio Humberside this morning to the effect that live music has ceased in all Sam Smith's pubs. The report sited Nellies music history as well.
Speaking as a rather confused non folky, Don't the PRS have a lot to answer for here? Could Sam Smith's not be seen as taking a stand against a ridiculous situation? My banging out a few tunes in a pub is hardly taking the food out of the mouths of some poor "composer" is it?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,manitas
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM

I thought the topic of PRS licences had been done to death but perhaps that was on another list. If you don't have a PRS licence they will be down on you like a ton of bricks and you will have a hard time proving that everything played or sung at your session is exempt from their licence. You may think the burden of proof is on the PRS but they can make a nuisance of themselves and it will only take one rendering of 'Dirty Old Town' or 'Street of London' for their case to be made.The landlord certainly won't want to waste his time, money and livelihood in court so the simplest thing will be to get a PRS licence. If Sam Smiths won't allow the landlord to do this then you're stuffed.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:04 AM

If Sam Smiths won't allow the landlord to do this then you're stuffed.

It is a sad fact that the historical approach to both issues has been a blanket licence - the lack of which prevents the music.

However, it is plainly not in the interests of anyone -especially PRS/PPL etc - to have music prevented. If these bodies they succeed in this end - it is they (and those they are supposed to be representing) who are stuffed.

Those that see that freedom of expression through making music as a right - are only stuffed - if they accept this current stupidity. Where a blanket claim for performing rights prevents material from being played - that no body has the rights over.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 06:54 AM

Did we ever find out how many Pubs are owned by Samuel Smiths?
Can we quantify the loss to the PRS?

Also, what about other pubs declining to renew their PRS licence?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:02 AM

Or is the the PPL/MCPS?
It would help if we clarified which licences are involved

As far as I recall

PPL covers playing prerecorded copyright music (& video?) on the premises

PRS covers performance of copyright material by live acts

Also
The new PEL covers 'entertainment' but not playback of prerecorded music, nor TV.

MCPS covers copyright on prerecorded music - paid when CD is recorded

If the music is not under copyright (Often difficult to prove), then only the PEL is relevant.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,John from Hull [can't log in]
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:57 AM

This issue has just been featured on Hull TV [it's a local thing],
they said "local music lovers are annoyed at plans to ban all live music at local pub "Nellies", by the brewery Sam Smiths, music has been played at Nellies for many years, but will be banned from the end of this month.Sam Smiths are refusing to comment."

Hull TV is a local TV station available in and around Hull, its a joint venture between the BBC and Kingston Communications.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Flamenco Ted
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:44 AM

Thanks for that Pavane. Our Hull based flamenco club had been held in a Sam Smith's pub since 1972, until we recently moved it to a Spanish restaurant last year, so we would be stuffed too. Ridiculous!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Beast of Farlington
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:40 AM

PRS licence applies to copyrighted music, published or performed live. It would be totally impractical to have live music limited to non-copyrighted material - you'd have to do a lot of research to know exactly what is and isn't copyright. It's a bit like owning a TV and saying you only use it for playback and therefore you don't need a TV licence.

It's interesting that Sam's are concerned about PRS licences - probably because PRS uses inspectors to enforce them - because they have never seemed that bothered about having a PEL for live music.

In the case of Farlington, we would even offer to pay the annual licence for the Brewery to be allowed to play every week and contribute to their beer profits - it would be a mere 70p each a week - but they won't even countenance that.

I am now looking forward to playing somewhere we will be welcomed.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 10:58 AM

Exactly.

No licence is necessary if no copyright material is performed (or rather, no music for which PRS administers the copyright?)

But as pointed out above, the PRS can make a lot of fuss, trying to prove their case, and it only takes one error for them to win. That is even more difficult than you may think - even Happy Birthday to You is in copyright, so don't sing it!

There does not seem to be a reliable database of Public Domain songs, and even if it existed, there would still be the arrangement to worry about. This has all been covered thoroughly in other threads.


(By the way, it has been held that you do NOT need a TV licence if you only use it to view video/DVD, and do not have an aerial connected.)

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:26 AM

Radio Humberside have just emailed me for information so we'll see what that's all about...

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 11:48 AM

Might be worth listening and watching the following -

From Radio Humberside reporter -

"I wonder if you could e-mail/ring me and tell me what the explanation is as we'd like to report it on our news programme. Reports are also running this evening on Look North ( East edition )."


Might get some wider coverage now?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:37 PM

The PPL PRS link-up.

http://www.ppluk.com/

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM

PRS licence applies to copyrighted music, published or performed live. It would be totally impractical to have live music limited to non-copyrighted material - you'd have to do a lot of research to know exactly what is and isn't copyright. It's a bit like owning a TV and saying you only use it for playback and therefore you don't need a TV licence.

Is it better then to have a situation where it impossible to make any music at all because of the current system of blanket licensing? I will settle for an impractial attempt at a solution rather than meekly accepting the playing of non-copyright material being made impossible.

I suggest that we need to work toward a better and fairer system? One that does recognise the practical difficulties presented (in particular to traditional and original music) and one that does not actually threaten live music?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:51 PM

PPL

http://www.ppluk.com/

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

This was on Look North BBC tonight. About 30 seconds. No reason, no comment from the Brewery. 30 years of radition and people travelling from far and wide. I wonder what view the Chairman of Sam Smiths will have when sales drop through the floor.

I hope if revives the fortunes at the Sun in Beverley that has a Tuesday night acoustic learning session, a Friday night session and events on Sundays.

Funny how things go up and down. The Tuesday night session moved to Nellies late last year when the Sun closed - then moved back when it re-opened.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:08 PM

The company owns over 200 pubs the majority of which sell cask ale, note that many of the London owned pubs do not sell cask ale. Many of the pubs are not branded as being under the ownership of any brewery or pub company.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Pistachio
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

I just saw Richard Wastling on TV - He has run the White Horse Folk Club upstairs on Monday nights for more than half his life... and having phoned him he's said there'll still be a singers night on 24 Jan and the booking for 31 Jan will still go ahead. The club will not run on the first Monday in Feb (7th) and by then Anna, the landlady, will have returned and will be able to speak to Richard about the 'future'. The jazz club who meet on Wednesdays have been told they have to close.....What a sorry state of affairs for all concerned.
HOW CAN WE GET THROUGH to 'Mr Smith'? HAS HE EVER ATTENDED AND NOTICED THE ATMOSPHERE, ENJOYED THE PERFORMANCES, WITNESSED THE PLEASURE PEOPLE GET and TAKE WITHIN SUCH A WONDERFUL VENUE. It's surely insulting to Nellies to be 'on an even playing field with other S. S's Pubs. I'm SORRY - I don't know the other pubs and I'm sure all their regulars are as upset. Grrrrr.
The clubs have brought good trade to 'Nellies' for so many years and when the folk festival is on how many people will rightly expect to hear music within those walls? I think the whole business is ill thought out - and every effort should be made to persuade this man to realise he's made a monumental mistake. I have friends in Scotland and America who remember 'the singing' in Nellies...and I know it's known of even further afield.
Sorry. I'm about to get really angry. Better go. H.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:24 PM

My understanding is that there will be a piece on Radio Humberside on drive time tomorrow between 5 and 7 and that they are trying to follow up MPs who are pro-live music and the PRS.

Apparently it is a big local story that they intend to follow through.

Could I suggest - because there are many people who know HUGE amounts more about these things than me that they contact

Chris Arundel
BBC Radio Humberside
East Yorkshire
Tel: [phone]


who was the guy who phoned me. I'm sure any useful information/spokespeople etc that might escalate it to a national issue might help things.

Coincidentally I believe there is something about folk music on the Culture Show on BBC2 on thusday - apparently on 'How do you make folk music cool' according to the BBC forum (at BBC folk forum ) - perhaps it would be good to allow it to exist and thrive at a grass roots level.

Chris, if you come here and you want the post removed or don't want the input, just post

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:44 PM

I reckon Richard has got the tone dead right here -

Nellies

Follow good advice!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:32 AM

The Performing Rights Society has increased its fees and become very active - Hence Sam Smiths decision. This week they charged £600 plus for "Sessions" held every Tuesday, in another Beverley pub to cover any music played still in copywrite - ignoring fees to "Trad" or original music.

They are more effective than the Government at killing live music (indeed any music) - killing the golden goose for them in fact!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Sooz
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:37 AM

Nellies was featured on BBC Look North last night.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 03:18 AM

Interesting : The PPL site did not seem to mention that some music may be exempt. It just says that if you broadcast or play recorded music (in public), you need a licence.

Quote pasted from the site:

You need to have a PPL licence if you use sound recordings in any of the following ways:

...

If you use music on your premises, such as night-clubs, pubs, in the workplace; or if you are an individual using music such as a dance teacher or aerobics instructor

Should we not query this? If the website is viewed as advertising, should it not be accurate?

As I understand, privately made sound recordings of original or non-copyright music may NOT require a licence.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:10 AM

I quote from PRS Website

"When music is played in public the owner of the copyright is entitled, by law, to payment from the music user. The Performing Right Society is an organisation that collects and distributes this money (known as 'royalties') to it's members - the owner of the copyright (usually the composer or their publisher).

A PRS licence is required for the live performance or public playing of copyright music by any means. This includes jukeboxes, CD's, video, radio, TV or live bands and discos."

The licence is not it seems specific to each individual peice of music - I doubt if a player in a session will get anything from PRS if s(he) plays an original composition. The quote is from a site encouraging music as a means of attraction to premises!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:42 AM

"Is it better then to have a situation where it impossible to make any music at all because of the current system of blanket licensing? I will settle for an impractial attempt at a solution rather than meekly accepting the playing of non-copyright material being made impossible."


Guest

Of course it isn't better. I was simply pointing out what the law is. As someone who has written to Humphrey Smith to make my views clear, I'm not 'meekly' accepting anything and, in my case, as I play my own stuff I would be exempt! What have YOU done about it?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:30 AM

Of course it isn't better. I was simply pointing out what the law is.

The law does not mean that all music can be prevented for the lack of a PRS/PPL etc licence - even if folk may told to accept that it does. If it does mean that in practice - then this law is an ass and the quicker it is changed (for all concerned) the better.

Most of the recent licensing issues that have caused problems to live music and to sessions in particular - are because officials have stated that the law supports their actions and the folk affected have largely accepted that the law did support these actions. In mamy cases the law does not support theses actions and there were other laws that protected the activities affected.

But most of the resulting activity was in folk finding ways around the law or finding alternative homes - not in establishing what the law did in fact support and fighting to change the situation.

The fatal thing is to ever accept at face value the things that you are told the law supports. If it seems unlikely that the law should prevent such activities as we are concerned with here - it is probably because the law - in fact does not support such prevention.

If PRS/PPL had a mind to - of course they could make trouble for a licensee who held a non-copyright only session - by insisting that a fee be paid for a particular copyright piece (accidently) played. But it would not be possible for these bodies to legally prevent such an event.

The onus should be on the body to demonstrate their claim - not for us to demonstrate that they do not have a claim. The impractibilty of such a system of collection - as used at present - is a matter for these bodies to deal with.

However, that has been the pattern - the officials make a lot of noise and trouble and inhibit licensees in particular as a result - who either pay-up or stop the activity. Very few (if any) have been legally tested by resulting prosecution and as a result - what officials claim to be the law - in practice actually becomes what you are told to accept IS the law.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:43 AM

If Samuel Smiths wanted to make a very effective protest - and not upset at least some of the local music customers - there is a way.

A regular session consisting of non-copyright material performed by unpaid pub customers as incidental live music would not require the PRS/PPL licence or the Premises Licence entertainment permission.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: ET
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:54 AM

I agree with all that is said but the man from PRS visits landlords (no doubt with coat collar up and hat pulled down) - not musicians. Hence landlord paying up in this case.

There are so many officials around, all doing "jobsworth" jobs - its a wonder they don't meet up at the same time and place and fight with each other. The PRS man could fight with the Licquor Licensing Inspector, the Food Hygiene controller, the Noise Abatement Official, the Chairman of the Local Residents Association, the Planning Inspector and the Toilet Inspector, all supervised by the Executive from the Health and Safety Inspectorate.   I hope they manage to wipe the lot of them out.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 05:59 AM

Good point there from Shambles.
Waht legal powers do PRS have, ie if people ignored them/told them to piss off etc, waht exacty could the prs people do?
I'm assuming it's a civil matter, have parliament ever given PRS any legal powers?
is it a goverment department, like customs and exice, or is it a private company, like the gas board etc?


Tjhis issue was featured on BBC Look North last night, they Interveiwed Richard Wasling [Oganizer of Nellies Folk Club], they also showed inside the pub, it was almost empty, just a few OAP's sat chatting, it will be even more quiet if they ban all the music!

Nellies is one of the main music pubs in the area,
Folk Club, Jazz Club, Northumbrian Pipers Club, Salsa Club, Various folk sessions etc etc.
I would guess that at least half the people go there for the music.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:09 AM

I reckon Sam Smiths are cutting their own throats here,
why can't they just buy the PRS Licence, for the music pubs in the chain, such as Nellies, Blacksmiths at Farlington etc?
Someone mentioned it works out at about £7 a week, in pubs like Nellies etc, it would pay for itself many times over, if all the drinkers from the music nights, go elsewere it will lose them thousands over the year.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:35 AM

"The fatal thing is to ever accept at face value the things that you are told the law supports"

Thanks for the advice but none of us at Farlington are guilty of this. Many of us have researched the law and made our views known vociferously to Sam's. We have an outstanding query with PRS on the implications and the ways round it - again, I was simply stating the coverage of the law as I understood it. That is not the same as 'accepting at face value'. We have a lot to lose here.

Amongst ourselves we have discussed paying the PRS licence for the pub but Sam's won't contencance such inconsistency across their pubs in any case.

What I do know, from having worked in the past with some PRS inspectors (on a training course just in case you think I AM one!)is that they are extremely zealous in tracking down offenders and an inspector paid our pub a visit just before Christmas. Our chances of playing non-copyright music without hassle are even more limited now Sam's have attracted such publicity over this decision - who do you think PRS will be watching most carefully now? We can fight this, but it will probably be a long game and I am not holding my breath for a quick solution.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:38 AM

I am still not clear on who controls what.

The PPL and PRS are DIFFERENT bodies, but both seem to claim to control the rights and collect payments for public playing of prerecorded music - is that right?

So do we pay TWICE?? Clarification in this area seems to be necessary.

From the PPL web site:

You need to have a PPL licence if you use sound recordings in any of the following ways:
...
This includes radio and television (analogue and digital), cable, satellite, internet radio and simulcasts
...
If you use music on your premises, such as night-clubs, pubs, in the workplace; or if you are an individual using music such as a dance teacher or aerobics instructor

As a result of legislation passed in the UK in December 1996, all performers now have a new statutory right to receive a share of the income earned whenever the recordings on which they have performed are broadcast or played in public. In the past, we made ex gratia payments to featured performers each year, but this new legal right applies to each individual performer - whether featured artist or session musician.

Distribution to PPL record company members and performers is made annually at the end of each financial year on a 50/50 basis. This means that revenue allocated to each qualifying performance will be shared 50/50 between the PPL record company member and the performers on a track-by-track basis.



AND
The Performing Right Society collects royalties on behalf of music creators and publishers for the public performance and broadcast of their copyright musical works.



From the PRS web site:

MCPS and PRS exist in order to administer the copyright in musical works (including lyrics) on behalf of their writer and publisher members.

The essential function of PRS is to collect and distribute music royalties on behalf of its members.
PRS is known as a 'collecting society' because its primary role is collecting royalties from music users in the UK who every day publicly perform, broadcast and include music in cable production services. PRS also collects royalties from around the world for its members through reciprocal agreements with collecting societies overseas.

PRS collects the royalties by issuing a licence to the music user (usually charged on an annual basis). In order to then make royalty payments to its members, PRS needs to know what music is being played. Major users, such as the BBC and large concert venues, give PRS detailed reports of the music they play. For many other venues including commercial discos, clubs and pubs, PRS sends researchers to obtain first hand information.

With an estimated 8 billion public performances in the UK every year it is not possible to track every one. To pay out these royalties, statistical methods are used based on actual performance information.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 06:44 AM

OF course, as far as I know, this is civil law, not criminal? Can someone clarify?

As you can see, the royalties paid by the PRS are based on performance information. So if your song is sung only at gigs which are not known to PRS, tough. It is a 'big boys' club

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 07:00 AM

Of course, if Sam's are being honest about their true reasons for this, it is the cost of the licences which they object to. Whatever 'dodge' we can conjure up won't apply if they say 'no music on our premises.

I believe that they will come to realise that they will make more money by paying the licenses and allowing music than watching a large part of their customer base go to the competition. They might make less money than they made previously when licenses were cheaper but it will be a lot more than they are going to make in the future.
A lot of their landlords are up in arms about this and are leaving. That increases Sam's recruitment and training costs and perpetuates the spiral of falling revenue.

I feel that change is likely to come via the economic route rather than the legal route. Who will blink first Sam's or PRS?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 08:00 AM

Here's another link to another site bemoaning the loss of music at Nelly's.

Sam's Music ban

Research shows that last year there was a campaign for Sam's to restore the 'Ayinger Brau Fat Man in the Box' (yes, really). I wonder how they have fared?

Ayinger Brau Fat Man Petition

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:16 AM

It all makes me very sad and angry. Clearly, in Farlington, on certain nights music brought in a huge income and a lack musicians/boycott might be effective. In the case of Nellies, despite its large musical following, I doubt that we really have much economic clout compared to the non-musical regulars. How about a poll of the non-musical regulars and perhaps a petition? Nellies will continue to be a popular and thriving pub without us. The support of those who do not participate but enjoy the atmosphere and entertainment created by live music could be very powerful. Before music is banned at the end of the month, it might be fruitful to put on a very accomplished and public session deliberately designed to appeal to the public. Simultaneous collecting of signiatures could be effective. I don't know whether this would be too militant, particularly for the Anna the Landlady probably doesn't wish to get into trouble. Perhaps it isn't even a good idea, though surely a public petition from those who do carry the economic clout must be worth something. Now's the time to do it. What do you think?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:19 AM

Of course, if Sam's are being honest about their true reasons for this, it is the cost of the licences which they object to. Whatever 'dodge' we can conjure up won't apply if they say 'no music on our premises.

They seem to be clear that this was a protest over the increased PRS/PPL charge due for 2006. I for one would support them in objecting to this. However, I question the wisdom of an approach that risks setting their customers against Sam Smiths and deprives pubs like Nellies and all of their other pubs of live music. A more selective method may be better.

As far as I can see - if there was no increase in this licence fee due for 2006 - they would be happy. So it is not Sam Smiths who are the problem in saying 'no music on our premises' - but PRS/PPL for increasing the fee.

Perhaps our efforts would be better designed to support Sam Smiths protest against the increased charges - whilst pointing out the counter-productive aspects of their approach - rather than concentrate on cricising Sams. Any 'dodge' should be one that is done in concert with their protest action - rather than against it and them.

The fact is that Sam's not paying the fee (now or in 2006) does not prevent ALL music from being played in their pubs. Their refusal to apply for Premises Licence entertainment permission for all their pubs (from February 2005) - would effectively mean this.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:30 AM

Shambles, I agree that that would be a great path to go down. My concern is that when I wrote to him:

"If I understand your letter correctly it is not that you are against us playing music in the pub per se but rather the PRS cost... I understand and applaud the basis of your company strategy ie "to keep our brewery open and producing and offering secure employment for the very long term" I can only say that our aims are in accord as we also would wish the pub and company to survive and prosper. As I mentioned in my previous letter the current course of action will unfortunately harm The Blacksmiths Arms financially in the short term as we will be compelled to move elsewhere to pursue our interests even though we would much rather stay where we are.

Given that our aims coincide, surely there must be a way to make this work?

... If the PRS cost ceased to be an issue at Farlington - without jeopardizing your position of keeping a level playing field across your pubs - could we continue?"

His answer was:

"I apologize but we have ended all live and taped music or entertainment, jukeboxes, TVs etc as a blanket policy apart from honouring existing bookings in the case of a few committed private functions...
I know it will not please you but our small brewery's decision is a strategic one. We will not be changing the policy and the Blacksmiths Arms and the other licenced premises we operate will have to adapt to its consequences for the long term. I can only apologize again."

I'm not sure how one conveys to the man that we would like to HELP and SUPPORT rather than battle against him. Perhaps my letters were unclear and I should send him a shorter one?! He certainly doesn't come across as someone who wants to explore solutions.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:07 AM

Nick I take your point.

But it could well be that circumstances may have changed since then?

Even if they have not - a full frontal attack upon Sams in response will only result in them digging in.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,Jenn
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:08 AM

Oh dear! Ive just heard about this.. i live down in cambridge but go back to Nellies as often as possible. I assure you that Anna, the landlady, is not one to lie down and let anything happen. (I used to work there so i should know.) They can, no doubt, stay afloat but they will lose a rediculous amount of money and respect. I alwyas thought that sams smith prided itself on its individuality?! Perhaps letters are the only way... or perhaps a nice trip to a brewery? My letters on its way!

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 10:47 AM

I fully intend to write again and will offer what support I can - it's up to him if he takes it or not.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:15 AM

RAdio Humberside Drive does indeed have a thing about Live Music on at some point over next 2 hours - http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/radiohumberside/
or 1485 am - 95.9fm

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:46 AM

Shambles

Though it might seem like it, I don't think you and I are are really in disagreement. We HAVE tried the 'our interests are the same' tack but Humphrey will not entertain it. I agree that whatever happens, we should not antagonise him. If he is to change his mind, he needs to have a way of saving face.

This was the second half of my letter to him:

"I think it is fair to say that all of us understand that without Sam Smiths' there would be no Blacksmith's Arms as few breweries seem interested in such idyllic village pubs anymore – and we are very grateful to you for that and know that you regard the Blacksmith's Arms as a special place. However, we believe that our gathering serves your interest as well as ours: we generate income through an activity – folk music – that is entirely in keeping with the village setting and generates income for Sam Smiths. We enjoy it, no-one else objects and it keeps your business going.

I'm sure you have your reasons for your decision, Mr Smith and I would appreciate knowing what they are. However, I do want you to know our feelings on the matter and the impact this decision will have.

Please reconsider your decision so that we can keep a gathering that is very precious to us."

To which the answer was 'no'.

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:22 PM

No I don't think we disagree much and as I have said, I do not think this is a good move by Sam Smiths but the reasons for this protest move on their part, are easy to understand. Also many of us would have beem unaware of the threat presented by this PRS/PPL increase for 2006 - if Sam Smiths had not taken the prompt action they have and Nick had not alerted us to this. Perhaps this may prove to be a good thing in the long-run and we may even have cause to thank them?

If you look at it from a position of survival in a competitive market - as Mr Smith does - it is clear.

If a Government allows or encourages a situation where it is cheaper for (small) pubs to run - without providing any live music (even before paying the musicians) - pub operators will not provide any.
No ammount of this Government's claims - in the face of this - that it is providing more opportunity for live music - will change this sad fact.

It may well be true that large pubs currently staging live music (and night clubs providing recorded dance music) - in areas where the PEL charges are set very high - will be paying less under the new Act than they are at present - but the 2006 increase in PRS/PPL fees will no doubt affect these places too...........

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:24 PM

I listened to the Humberside report at c5.30 which surprised me a bit.

I've sent an email to Chris Arundel which I copy here -

"Listened to your report at 5.30 ish - just to correct a factual error the correspondence with Humphrey Smith was in January not December. And also the bit on the news at 5 seemed to link me much closer to Nellies than I am - I have only been there twice in my life. Richard and Jean and others are the prime movers there.

I was surprised that the tone of the report was that Samuel Smiths have made an informed economic decision, that PRS are reasonably priced and that's it tough luck for the folkies.

No mention of the jazz at Nellies or that it affects more than just folk music.

No mention that even at Farlington the c£5000 (estimate) that whizzed across the bar over the last year AS A DIRECT RESULT of music (not incidental business because people were there, but directly linked to the music) - for Nellies you are talking many times that figure of LOST business from Jazz, Folk, Salsa etc. Tonight c15 of us will be at another pub and give them our business - this is a direct economic negative for Sam Smiths. The £7 it would have cost is irrelevant compared to the takings.

Just surprised really that it seemed pretty much ok Sams have done rather than going a little deeper into the financial loss that is involved to Sams. If they would adopt a wider selective view on the needs of their individual pubs then they could save fees where they wanted and still allow music in their pubs - ie KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY

I'll stick a copy of this on Mudcat to keep friends etc informed - any problem with that let me know and I'll get it removed

Regards

Nick"

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: ET
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

According to Radio Humberside its the fault of the Supermarkets.
Sam Smiths refused to comment directlybut in December had written to the chairman of a North Yorks Folk Cub saying that the Brewery had to protect its long term interests and cut costs.

Seems the PRS has not increased its fees for live music, but the organisation that protects live Muzak and Big Screen TV have, considerably.

Because so many are buying beer from Tesco etc and following that wretched idea that "staying in is the new going out" pubs are in fierce competition for trade and Sam Smiths are throwing babies and bathwater out of the window by banning all music to save costs. According to Radio Humberside there is no sign that they will change their minds.

Seems to me that making pub visits a less enjoyable experience is an odd way of competing with Tesco and the Box at home, but what do I know about commercial commerce.

What I do know is that we are seeting up a very odd society where we all rush home, lock the door, switch on the box and open our cheap 6 pack. No communication with anyone else, no interation, no live music.

I think all lovers of live music should find locals that will accommodate us, take along as many drinkers as we can, and prove it is worth while having music in pubs to drag as many as we can into the pub?

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 02:51 PM

It matters little if PRS/PPL charges are thought reasonable by those that do not have to pay them.

If it is the opinion of those who do have to pay them - that they are too high - these people (the ones that do matter) won't be prepared to pay them.

And although the golden goose may not be quite dead - like everyone else - it will be stuffed......

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM

The Minister for Sport and Tourism has day-to-day responsibility for licensing, his address is :-

        The Minister for Sport and Tourism
        Rt Hon R.Caborn M.P.
        Department for Culture Media & Sport
        2-4 Cockspur Street
        London SW1Y 5DH

I have written to him to advise him of the action taken by Sam Smiths in response to the impending legislation and requesting him to revisit the legislation and remove from it the requirement for live music to have a license. ( not much chance quite honestly, but the question has to be put to him )

The webpage for Alcohol & Entertainment at the Department of Culture, Media and Sport is :-
www.culture.gov.uk/alcohol_and_entertainment/default.htm


the following page has their answers to some commomly asked questions
www.culture.gov.uk/alcohol_and_entertainment/licensing_act_2003/regulated_entertainment.htm

There's been a lot of talking, yet we just seem to thrashing around without a clear sense of direction.
Everyone who wanted to let off steam has done so.
Is it possible to come to any clear idea of just what the way forward should be??

Jake

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 04:38 AM

At our Tuesday night session this week in The Sun, Beverley we were shown the PRS/PPL bill which had separate amounts for "background music" and the live sessions.

Shaun, the landlord, has paid the bill because he doesn't want to lose the live music which he sees as a lifeline for the pub which, otherwise, struggles to make a living.

R

Subject: RE: Obit - Samuel Smiths and LIVE music
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 05:35 AM

I assume this is the £600 fee mentioned earlier in this thread?

It is really good news that this licensee was prepared to pay it now and for the reasons given. Will they still do this when the fee is increased in 2006?

Paying this for one pub is one thing but in the case of Sam Smiths it would be - multiplied 200 times - for each of their pubs. Plus the increased fee due for 2006.