BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic

Subject: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 03:21 AM

Hey Folks!

This last 6 months my thinking has changed alot on the spiritual metaphysical order of the universe and the structure of the brain.

I have a severe handi-cap: I have Attention Deficit Disorder. As such I naturally seem to learn and create through the integrated experiences of thoughts flowing through my head, whether they are mine or non-local through the universal intelligents of the ether (Collective Subconsicous Universal Intelligents)

This basically makes me an abstract collective learner. But unfortunately the rest of the world does not function this way, i.e. in integrated benefical wholes of thought and/or concepts.

Logic seems to RULE EVERYTHING! What is in front of us, seemsed to be more important than what is BEYOND US (i.e. our ability to draw from a birds-eye point blank, something that currently we cannot even see or precieve, but one in which reason dictates to us is most likely still out there for us to discover)

I cannot seem to hold my attention long enough to learn any form of higher mathematics for example because of my so-called instinctual handicapp in the other area.

In this other AREA called logic I am a complete DUNCE!! I would so love to have a bit more of a logical brain and a task oriented mind to balance my other gift and/or curse: A.D.D.

A.D.D. has slowed down much in my life especially in the areas of employment. Don't come after me with a big long list of things to do in a particular order. I will most likely take to long doing them, forget to do the things on the list, or worst of all of the problem: get distracterd and start doing something else.

I have been accused with SOME former employers of not listening to them, not caring about my duties, being inconsiderate etc. This of course had nothing to do with my work ethic (which was/is impeccable)
I work hard, stay late and do more than my fair share, but not in there time frame and not in their busied environment.

Just don't stick me in a room with to many people talking at one. Also please don't talk to me FAST, the words will ALL go right over my head and out my ears, before they will ever reach any part of my brain or consciousness.

Unfortunately for me This IS A left brain LOGICAL world.
I took BASIC alegebra 3 times in College before I finally passed. the Higest Grade I ever got was a C- for the semester.

In many academic disciplines outcomes are the same reguardless of method, and learning modalities can sometimes be adjusted. Science and Math unfortunately are not some of these for me.

I guess what I am saying here is that I WISH I could compensate in some way to become a more LOGICAL learner as this would make me more social conscious and accepted in functioning groups of people.

If this cannot be achieved than of of course I would preferred to have an occupation in a controlled environment where I can be creative and independant of some-elses timeline or short term goal requirements (for the hours within the day)

Of Course I may never be fully as LOGICAL as many of the gifted scientists and mathmaticians are, my gift is in the OTHER domain: REASON. I am totally happy with this gift which comes to me from God, and my improved attitude toward the creation, but unfortunately the rest of society is not willing to compensate when it comes to my ability to relate. And if I cannot compensate at least I hope to come PART WAY to the LOGICAL side within myself. And I am certain that my career would be slowed down, through an inability to logically concentrate and/or listen to others for protracted periods of time.

Also I have been a SLOW SLOW learner in college. And still I have a hard time reading a book and finishing it in a REASONABLE amount of time. It took me 7 years of pondering to learn the "secret" in Think and Grow Rich. I've conversely heard of some people discovering thier potential in this book upon the FIRST READING, of course they were fast readers and logical, and most went on to discover many new sciences. I had to take notes, ponder each word, analyze etc. before grasping the undisputed concept. Talk about slow, and even then I could not use the Universal Faculty in the way that they did!

Reason vs. Logical

Logic wins in the work place and in academics.

Reason in the world of poets, musicians and philosophers.

Call me greedy but I wish I could do both things well and learn in those glorious ways that other do, in this fast paced, social intergrated, ever respoding, scientific world that is today.

Bring on the calculus and the geometry, and God help me learn soemthing different from the way that I do learn. Just don't give me the story problems!

Please! Anything but the story problems!

Dewey (the Telepathic Scatter Brain)

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:19 AM

WHAAT ?

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:37 AM

Pass it around !

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:54 AM

Eric,

There is an intelligence beyond man's that can think beyond man himself and integrate his sub-conscious mind. this is the reason we can accomplish things beyond the ordinary, and invent stuff seemingly outside of our own experiences.

It is the first cause or God, and is ever expanding and integrated with our consciouness and everyone elses to bring a beneficial result. It is the same master mind that makes everyone's heart beat, keeps the stars and planets perfectly in place etc.

Basically it is Creative Imagination, Originating from the Creator (the source of all PURE creativity) It is perfectinginterconnected and never-ending, which is why if you are an abstract thinker in your mid-thirties or over who has the develpment of your cerebral cortex (the organ resposible for non-local psychic intellect) you can actually tap into and work with the perfecting but abstract mind of mind of God himself.

Simple logic alone cannot maintain the structure of this higher mind, it is beyond our simple sordid nature and pre-concieved notions, it sees beyond and integratedly past anything our small minds might not otherwise even come up with. It is in short the SOURCE of all genius. It is not just an idea, it is all ideas and all information.

It can target our emotions, it can track global thoughts AS A WHOLE, influence consciousness, invent new ideas beyond any man's or GROUPS singular ability.

We reason and it reasons with us, for us, and beside us, as well as above us. Hope it doesn't shock you to learn that there is such a thing as a God and as well as a Purpose, when they are combined, everything, including intelligents is infinitely abundance. (and no I did not say the above to talk down to you, fight or have you percieve me as a nut, I only say it becasue it is actual true and I wish to share many of its (God's) exciting aspects)

The Infinite Intelligents (universal mind) is the intergrated way in which the brain naturally grows and learns without any damands by the individual himself. Reason guides the higher mind as well as you. I define reason here as instincts, percieved intelligents and bravely I might add: telepathy, magnetism, time frame mobility (i.e a higher mind telling us what to instinctual do with others in relation to events for ours/their benefit and the benefit of a greater cause and/or intellectual purpose that is trying to be extracted from the consciousness of all.

Basically everything through God is and can be integrated, and we can learn and phyically feed of each others mind's through our thought impulses intelectual stimulation for casue and purposes greater and more reveiling than our own.

Impure creativity is slower, and is used through the synthetic imagination, i/e usually logic for example, one idea building on the next through our finite mind to create the structure, like in logical problem solving to get a SPECIFIC answer.

To get multiples answers and concepts beyond linear thinking requires acces to the infinite intelligents. It does exist and is also does know our will, in fact much better than we do. it is in short our instincts when we are guided by an idea we intend to concentrate into reality.

That is Abstract Reasoning, muscian do it when they are Jamming, they take a guitar break and instinctually make up melodies while they go along, it is this concntration of there musical brain that inspires their Godhead, or sixth sense, which provides them with orgainzed musica arrangements, endles at will, based upon chord arrangements, rhythms. etc. We all do this to some extant, only not everyone knows what is REALLY going on there. It is not sole our thought and consciouness that is feeding the music through our instruments, it is our abstract ability to determine for ourselves and for the higher mind (God) exactly what it is we want. The musical arrangement can sometimes come full blown into ours minds by such excited super-conscious activity, the process is due to brain stimulation and intention.      

REASONING

Logic is far different and takes a bit more local effort and concentration to accomplish, which is why I am NOT very good at it at all!

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:28 AM

Yes. Guys! I know I have a nasty habit of just throwing these things out there and no-one will understand them not alone believe them. But I know there are some of you out there that trust and believe that what I tell you is not only true but possible.

I'm not trying to make myself a target here, I am just fascinated by the new found discoveries of the brain and the ether (sea of thought knowledge one hears continuously in the subconscious mind, most noticably at sleep, but always available 24/7 to the peaceful undesturbed and determined mind that percieves the radio like intellingence that is always available and working with our thought and the thoughts of others toward definite determined ends, by determined people!)

When you sleep you will hear these voices. You may hear them in you dreams, they are available to you through psychically communicative means. They are transcendant upon you ability to determine your will expressly. Do not hestitate to contact them as they will guide your every thought and action towards the achievement of your definite desire and your define major prupose.


What was the topic anyway?

Oh Yeah Reason vs. Logic, Learning Modalities, Un-employment, something similiar! Can't Remember anymore. Way to much A.D.D. in my head. No drugs, or Alcohol though...

And I swear the above by the devine power and guidance of the Devine Architect of the Universe, and the sacred hallowed Godhead.

Dewey (in space)

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:59 AM

By the way! I believe if you can combine local logic with the infinite mind capability (i.e. having the 6th sense) , you would have the most powerful human brain capacity available to anyone on the planet. Unfortunately, I have NOT been able to do this yet, due to my largely right brain orientation.

I think the resulting brain power though would be breathtaking to witness!

Dewey (who is only using half his brain, and ALL OF GOD'S)

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:57 AM

I'm sorta following you, Dewey, and I happen to subscribe to the idea of the Universal Mind, however I am having trouble with your use of the word "reason", to describe non-linear thinking. My understanding of the meaning of the words "logic" and "reason" is that they are the same. You are obviously using the word "reason" to mean something different.

Otherwise, keep it coming! Cool stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:36 AM

Logic, I would offer, is a subset of reason. "Le coeur as ses raisons que le raison ne connait pas", but they are reasons intimately involved with reason as it deals with matters of the heart, beyond ordinary logic.

I suggest too that it is a good idea to be sure not to confuse mass agreement -- even at high frequencies -- with some "universality" of mind. Not that there is none, but that it can be tricky territory.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:19 AM

Hi, Dewey. I gotta get back to you on this later. Too much business today. But nice to hear from you.

I have a book to PM you about.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

Reason vs. Logic?

I'm afraid I'm a bit lost in the terminology here. Reason or Logic vs. Emotion or Instinct I can see, but not Reason vs. Logic. Logic is the mathematics of Reason. They are one and the same, definitely not in opposition to each other. Logic is generally considered to be a more rigorous form of Reason.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:25 PM

Did you mean Feelings vs Logic? Or Intuition vs Logic? They're not the same, but similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

do you REALLY want Dewey to explain what he meant?

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:02 PM

It seems to me that the world is divided between those for whom theory comes first and provides the foundation on which practice is built, and those who do it the other way - the theory just doesn't make any sense until it can be built on a foundation of practice arrived at through trial and error.

The trouble is a lot of us seem to go through life convinced that whichever way works for us is the only way, and convinced that people who say they do it the other way are just pretending for some reason.

That especially seems to operate in our kind of music. I'm very much in the second category here, and for a long time I found it really strange the way some people seemed to insist on seeing musical theory as the first thing to learn, and insisting on the importance of working out tunes through tablature and all that in advance of playing them. Finally the penny dropped. We think differenmtly, and we learn diffeently, that's all. A bit like that idea about Men from Mars and Women from Venus, but it's not particularly gender based.

This isn't exactly the distinction Dewey is talking about, perhaps, but it's related. (But I agree about the quibble about us of language - rather than Reason versus Logic, I'd maybe call it Rational Intuition or Instinct versus Rational Logic.)

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:40 PM

Hey Dewey. When I was still in my teens, my boyfriend (who was in college at the time) took a class in bodybuilding. One of the exercises they had to do in that class was to run up and down the stadium steps with someone riding piggyback on their backs. It was gruelling exercise, and probably quite painful in some ways. But boy was he strong after taking that class.

I have ADD too, and I definitely know where you're coming from. But at the same time, I don't think I would trade my experiences as someone with ADD for anything because of what it has helped me to become.

My son has ADHD, and he has found a career in which his ADHD isn't anywhere near as much of a hindrance as it would be with any number of other careers. He's involved in work that is of a creative nature. Maybe you just need to keep looking for some kind of work that you are suited to. Anyway, good luck with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

My "history of science" class taught that science always starts with theorizing from the practical and only later starts inventing theories to extend the practical. Even then, theories are only theories until they become practical.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:37 PM

Our son is ADD and has many of the problems you talk about. He can read, but won't because he can't stay focused. He is MUCH better at hands on things than book learning. Mechanic, etc. He would LOVE to be an EMT/Paramedic, and is damn good at the hands on stuff....but he can't pass the test...can't process written materiel well. However, once he learns it, he KNOWS it and will never forget it. I have a book for you too, but I've forgotten the name of it. Gave it to son. Will call him and get title for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

I'm a bit puzzled here. You say you have ADD but you post messages that are so long that most of us so called ordinary folk don't have the attention span to read them. I certainly gave up before the end of the first one.

To address just one issue. I would suggest that the problem with mathematics for you lies not within yourself but with your teachers.

Math itself can usually be broken down into quite small pieces and a good teacher should not present too much at a time to ANY student. Unfortuately good teachers are few and far between especially in the field of mathematics where most tend to present the subject far too seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 04:26 PM

Bert, the length doesn't really matter. People with ADD are often very good with stream of consciousness writing. But getting organized for writing a paper in a formal classroom setting is a much bigger challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 04:31 PM

Well---to quote the famous late BROTHER THEODORE(formerly--to those of a certain age--just THEODORE):

Do we know what is behind the beyond---most of us don't even know what is beyond our behinds.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

Learning to accept differences is perhaps something we ALL have to do..whether ADD, ADHD, Black, White, Yellow, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 06:06 PM

Also (as I tried to post last night but got crashed on), you learn through experience, not through reason. Reason and logic are tools for learning from experience.

Librarians, for instance, learned years and years ago that you can teach research techniques 'til the cows come home, but the teaching won't "take" until it becomes essential for writing a paper or something -- that is, until experience requires it. Military types know that all the training in the world won't stick until the first time a bullet goes "crack!" past your ear. Medicine's old teaching tenet of "See one, do one, teach one" has quite a bit to recommend it.

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:28 AM

I am not sure we are using clear definitions here. But it seems that we are pointing at the difference between reasoning with data, using the rules of logic, and the kind of reasoning that is used by raw awareness in immediate appreception and permeation of situations. They are very different. I believe Dewey is using the term "reason" to describe that raw untamed country where reason flies free of data and reaches for pure know.

The beauty of that country is that it does not depend on agreemernt for validity; it is the land where the individual soul is sovereign.

It produces problems or art, depending on how it is used, when it is employed in society. Occasionally it produces stellar insight.

Policy, diplomacy, technology, logic and co-work all require the discipline of agreement. That's a different kind of information altogether.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Learning Thru Reason vs. Logic
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:19 PM

I'd third Mack and McGrath - sounds more like "intuition" than "reason". "Intuition" is how a good musician just knows what to play next. That the kind of thing you're talking about?

Logic wins in the work place and in academics. Reason in the world of poets, musicians and philosophers.

Not for philosophers - philosophy is *all* logic! Your initial premise can be "intuitive", but backing it up is pure logic. My wife did philosophy at uni - lordy, the bizarre stuff that people came up with by following "logical" arguments through!

Contrariwise, "intuition" is often wanted in the workplace - but you do need the right job.

Surprisingly, you might make a good computer programmer. You wouldn't think so, because it looks all logical. But learning a computer language, like learning a foreign language or learning an instrument, is entirely an intuitive thing. And there's plenty of programmers with ADD - in fact, attention deficit is almost the default state of computer programmers, diagnosed or not!

Don't come after me with a big long list of things to do in a particular order. I will most likely take to long doing them, forget to do the things on the list, or worst of all of the problem: get distracterd and start doing something else.

Hell, we all get that! :-) The deal with jobs is that you spend time doing stuff that you wouldn't otherwise do, in exchange for money. And everyone gets tasks sometimes where the list of stuff to do is so long and the things to do are so boring, you don't know where to start. New kids on a job sometimes need someone sat near them saying "how's it going?" at regular intervals to get them into the habit of keeping focussed. And some of us old kids could use it at times too! ;-)

Can you help yourself deal with it by keeping positive? Saying "it's hard to keep focussed when doing XYZ" is a valid issue and maybe points you in an area you can work at, or maybe points you away from jobs that don't suit you. Just don't limit yourself by saying "I can't do it", because you may fool yourself into thinking that you can't when in fact you've got huge potential. :-/

Graham.