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BS: Oh Mary Mary!!

John MacKenzie 28 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Sleepless Dad 28 Jan 05 - 01:57 PM
Sorcha 28 Jan 05 - 09:34 PM
Fossil 29 Jan 05 - 05:14 AM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM
Tannywheeler 29 Jan 05 - 12:29 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 29 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM
Tannywheeler 29 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 29 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Jan 05 - 05:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 05 - 06:16 PM
akenaton 30 Jan 05 - 03:59 AM
GUEST 30 Jan 05 - 09:33 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Jan 05 - 09:43 AM
GUEST 30 Jan 05 - 10:06 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 30 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM
GUEST 30 Jan 05 - 10:35 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 31 Jan 05 - 08:54 AM

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Subject: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

Mary MacAleese the president of the Irish republic when interviewed yesterday on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz compared the hatred of Jews engendered by the Nazi party, with the hatred of Catholics prevalent amongst Protestants in Ulster. She went on to quote other instances of institutionalised prejudice, but never once did she mention that Catholics in Ulster are also brought up to hate Protestants. This from the president of a country which stayed neutral in WW2, and sent condolences to the German people on the death of Hitler. They also refused to take in Jewish refugees in the late 1930s. She was born in Belfast of Catholic stock, and it would appear that her own prejudices are showing!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:57 PM

Both sides have plenty to be ashamed about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 09:34 PM

Hey, how about 'ALL SIDES' have plenty to be ashamed about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Fossil
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:14 AM

And she retracted that statement this morning anyway. Nobody in politics escapes the "foot-in-mouth" syndrome for long and at least she had the grace to apologise...


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

Boy, talk about BAAAAAD judgement!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:29 PM

Back during the first Saddam Hussein war in 1990(?) a female Irish gov't official took a big jet to Iraq and the mideast and picked up Irish nationals to get them out of harm's way. The place was full of Irish nurses and charitable org. workers, etc.

If you go to the back room of your domicile, face into the most obscure corner, and whisper "famine; catastrophe", the next morning there will be an Irish person at your door with a bag of groceries. When the emergency in Somalia was getting press and the American Gov't couldn't find out what was going on, did you notice how the news people could find emergency feeding stations and help-distribution facilities -- seemingly exclusively staffed by Irish people?       Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

Maybe we need to write a new song. In War, God ain't on nobody's side.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM

What The Lady said was correct.Absolutely correct Perhaps the comment didn't suit the political climate today. Hence the apology for rocking the boat.

Don't forget that as an innocent younster she was burned out of her home in the Ardoyne. This locality and Luganeil is where all the home burnings started - hundreds of the families sought (and were given) refuge south ofthe border. This was a time when people had to pout down theor religion in apllying for a house or a job - and the Catholics were walked upon. This is a fact of history

Retaliation soon followed and it was tit for tat. The murder by British Army of innocent cililians on Bloody Sunday put the fat in the fire and the IRA atrocities came as a result. It is all very well for politicians to be on their arrogant high horses. The lessons of the Ardoyne must not be swept under the carpet - no more than the lessoms of Alabama should be forgotten in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

When WW2 broke out, Eire had only just won independence following approx 800 years of oppression from the British. De Valera was prudent in doing what he did to protect his citizens. His neutrality was cleverly disguised so as to safeguard his people.

He did not prevent the Irish from volunteering to help the British army, and it is estimated that any number between 42000 and 250000 did volunteer.Numbers are sketchy as there are no records held to celebrate the volunteers services. Many were shunned on returning to Eire after the war and found it necessary to leave their country. More volunteered from Eire than North of the border.

The Irish army only numbered approx 13500. If they had declared war on Germany,some of the British troops would have had to withdraw from N.Africa, W.Europe and even the British Mainland , to repel attacks in Eire.

Nobody knows why De valera offered condolences on Hitler's death. Although scholars who have studied the man in depth believe it may have stemmed from his pedantry for protocol, and his need to be seen as neutral. He also offered condolences on Rossevelt's death.

When allied servicemen crash landed in Eire they were patched up and returned home. German service men were interred and interogated in the Curragh. Information gained was passed to the British Army. Does that sound neutral?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

I know what she said was correct, but she omitted the fact that it is a two way street in Ulster. Ours not to reason why the hatred arose it is historic, but what will help perpetuate it is people saying tactless things like that.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:06 PM

Without reasoning why the hatred arose, it could happen again. There is every reson to examine the background. People who voice objections to examining history are scared they may learn something unpleasnt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

I know the history well, my Father was an Ulsterman. I don't bear the same grudges as he did, nor do I share his religious intolerance.
History is only worth examining if we learn the lessons it can teach us, it is however patently obvious that it hasn't taught Mary MacAleese among others, anything at all.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:16 PM

Paddy Clancy (of CB&TM) served in the RAF. During WWII.          Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

This from the president of a country which stayed neutral in WW2, and sent condolences to the German people on the death of Hitler. They also refused to take in Jewish refugees in the late 1930s.

John perhaps it is your own prejudices that are showing? A little background to qualify your opening statement paints a very different picture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:16 PM

Yes I agree that we should all learn from history. But we are kidding ouselves if we try to deny that the history of dicrimination against Catholics ever took place. And that discrimination was disgracefull upheld by "the British forces of Law and Order".

The brutal beatings by the police at Burntollet Bridge of unarmned civilians who took part in a peaceful protest march, was captured on TV. The Civil Rights objective was partially successful - only because people stood up and fought. And that is the way all over the world - people have to fight for their rights before they eventually get them.

The partiality of the British Government during these times has been indicted by the European Commission on Human Rights. Political correctness shoud never come in the way of truth. And in that truth the condemnation of atrocities against civilians by the IRA must also be acknowledged.

It is only when we recognise and accept the above as historical fact that we can move on and proceed to a permanent resolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:57 PM

The condemnation of the European Commission on Human Rights was 40 years too late, why were the British allowed to partition Ireland in the face of the majority all Ireland vote for secession? All historical fact, but the lessons are yet to be learned. Only time will make Ireland one, and having waited this long I counsel patience.
Mary still shouldn't have said what she did.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:07 PM

"The Herzog-de Valera friendship continued until the Rabbi's death, but did not translate into practical measures to assist German Jews before the War, nor the many Jewish victims of Nazi cruelty later. Just before war broke out, de Valera declined to meet Herzog's request that he admit Christian Jewish doctors and dentists to Ireland and allow them to practice there; he also refused a request from the Vatican to admit a number of Jewish doctors temporarily. In the entire period of Nazi persecution, only 60 to 7O Jews were admitted to Ireland as refugees. The Irish Department of Justice continually recommended against such admissions, partly on the grounds that many Irish citizens were unemployed and would see the refugees as competitors for such jobs as there were, and partly out of fear that the result would be an antisemitic backlash. We should remember that similar arguments prevailed with President Roosevelt and the American authorities in 1937 when they refused sanctuary to German Jewish refugees on the St. Louis and sent them back to Germany to die.

Charles Bewley, the Irish Minister in Berlin, played a major role in thwarting refugees trying to reach Ireland. Bewley was enthusiastically pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish. His reports to Dublin consistently reiterate Nazi arguments that Jews considered themselves free of any moral obligations toward non-Jews, or toward the state of which they happened to be citizens, and so would subvert Christian citizens and Christian states. Jews ran "the "international white slave traffic," Bewley reported to Dublin, and promoted pornography and abortion. The Irish government recalled him in disgrace in August 1939, replacing him with a less hostile Minister, but from his arrival in 1933, Bewley had denied or delayed Irish visas for Jews; with the outbreak of war it was impossible even for Jews granted visas to reach Ireland."

A little background as requested.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 04:16 PM

The Irish Govt recognised the problem with Bewley and rightfully ousted him. What is your point?
How do you feel about the Swedish and Swiss policies regarding Jewish refugees?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 05:53 PM

Not germaine to this discussion.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 06:16 PM

If she'd dotted every eye she'd have actually said that there's bigotry on both sides. It seems pretty obvious that not saying that was an oversight on her part, not a deliberate distortion of any kind.

Staying neutral in World War II, and acting formally that way, was necessary and inevitable in the context of the time.

As has been pointed out, there was a pretty major contribution made to the war effort by Irish soldiers. For example, my own father - and he'd been in the IRA back in the 20s, and imprisoned for it. (Asked why he still felt it right to join up in the British Army in 1940 he once said "I always felt it right to defend the rights of small nations. Even my own.")


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:59 AM

Iv no axe to grind for either Proddys or Catholics.

But the problem in World War 2 and the Spanish Civil war was not created by the Irish people, but by the craven and self serving stance of the Catholic Church.

In saying that, the treatment recieved by Catholic in NI, was as everyone should know an indelible stain on ALL UK citizens, and no one should be surprised that direct action was taken..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:33 AM

To suggest that "both sides" are guilty and "both sides" have plenty to be ashamed of erases the facts of history. It was the British who instigated the repression and dispossession of the Irish, and Northern Ireland is the last bastion of that repression. Partition didn't change history, it just made it worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:43 AM

Saying 'He started it', or even 'A big boy done it and ran away' is not going to help. Bearing grudges never did and never will. We know who's to blame, and what for, but we have to play the cards we're dealt. We can't start from where we were, mainly because we missed the chance, we can only go from where we are now. It's the 'long memories' like Bloody Sunday, Warrenpoint, the killing of Lord Mountbatten etc, all the way back to the battle of the bloody Boyne, we must put it behind us.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:06 AM

The problem isn't grudges. The problem is the British refuse to leave Ireland, and return control of the entire island to it's citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM

Don't disagree with that, they should have done it in 1921, but it's not going to happen just yet, be patient it will come to pass.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:24 AM

No, it isn't going to happen. The failed peace process is the living proof of the fact that the British won't leave Northern Ireland, until the IRA renews it's campaign, and takes it back to England, and makes the English pay such a high price for it's intransigence, that the English citizenry will demand they get out once and for all.

You have only yourselves to thank for two successive British governments pandering to foaming at the mouth, violent, bigoted, intransigent loyalist thugs, instead of doing what they had the chance to do now for OVER TEN YEARS of the so-called "peace process".


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:35 AM

Gandhi was dead to rights about the British. They NEVER leave, unless forced to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:18 PM

I'm not going to rise to the provocative remarks about the IRA except to say more deaths won't help aybody. Perhaps Ian Paisley is Northern Irelands Yasser Arafat, and the British government is waiting for him to die in order to remove one of the biggest obstacles to talks. Jaw jaw is still better than war war.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Oh Mary Mary!!
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:54 AM

Yeah Giok MacKensie is right. We have to move on. But it is amazing how the ordinary British Public know so little about the history of N. Ireland.

I was in Liverpool during late sixties to midseventies.The ordinary folk could not believe the events and policies that led to the Civil Rights marches.

I agree that we cannot in the interests of the future dwell too much on the past. But neither should we attempt to pretend that the British establishent was anything less than discriminatory and unjust - and that is not meant as an affront to the ordinary decent British man and woman in the street.

Tiocfaidh ar la.


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