BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s

Subject: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:24 PM

I realize that this topic is not related to folk music, but I also know that Mudcat hosts a lot of folks in the reenactor scene, and many who are knowledgeable in a lot of areas regarding history. For a project I am working on, I would like to have some information about what types of firearms were used during the Mexican War of the 1840s, what gun innovations may have taken place in the 1850s and what firearms would have been in common use during the 1850s.
Any and all comments are welcomed and appreciated!

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 06:31 PM

Military or civilian? Regular army or militia units? Navy, marines? And which side -- Mexican or US?

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:30 PM

Tried Google?

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM

I suggest civilian, U.S., and military army U.S.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Chris Green
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 08:00 PM

Sounds fascinating! Sadly, being from the wrong side of the Atlantic and a mediaevalist, I'm not really in a position to help. Hope you find some answers though! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 09:51 PM

Moller, George D.- American military shoulder arms 1993

Katcher, Philip R. N. Mexican-American War, 1846-1848
colour plates by G. A. Embleton. 1976

Bilby, Joseph G.Civil War firearms : their historical background and tactical use and modern collecting and shooting 1996        

Reilly, Robert M.United States military small arms, 1816-1865; the Federal firearms of the Civil War, 1970

Rosebush, Waldo E. (Waldo Emerson) American firearms and
the changing frontier 1962

Sawyer, Charles Winthrop, 1868- Firearms in American history2000

Lots by Harold L. Peterson

Try a search or two HERE, then hit your local library's inter-library loan services.

Real history ain't easy.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:09 PM

Perhaps the most significant development of that period was the Walker model Colt .44 revolver, of 1847, the first really successful mass-produced multishot weapon, I think.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 05 - 11:12 PM

Seems to me that they mostly had smooth bore muskets and such in the decades prior to the Civil War, and most of those used percussion caps, which had replaced the earlier flintlock, a device which did not work in the rain. A percussion cap does work in the rain, but only provides one shot. It was used to fire a round ball.

Smooth bore firearms were necessarily rather short range and innacurate, compared to rifled barrel weapons which have grooves that cause the bullet to spin, greatly improving directional accuracy.

Rifled barrels had been around for awhile, but were not as common as smooth bore in the early to mid-1800's, I think. During the Napoleonic wars the British had rifle companies with rifled barrel guns, like the troops shown in Sharpe's stories. They were deadly accurate snipers, compared to the very innacurate firing guns of troopers in the main battle formations.

There were various pistols with revolving chambers, permitting several shots before the Civil War, and some rifles that had a similar arrangement. Tremendous progress was made in improving all these weapons during the Civil War, leading to modern cartridges, repeater rifles (like the Winchester carbine), chambered magazines that held a number of cartridges, and even gatling guns (the first real machine gun).

And that's my vague summary of a subject that I know a little about, but not a lot. I've probably got the details rather mixed up here and there.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 11:34 AM

In 1842 the american Government took the decision to convert all the flintlock rifles into percussion rifles by Harper's Ferry and Springfield arsenals. Between the years 1848 and 1860 about 700.000 rifles went under such transformation. Both the 1816 flintlock model and its converted to percussion version played an important part in the American history.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 04:25 PM

Good info! I'm curious about percussion vs flintlock. Was there a significant difference in loading time, or just reliability? Can anyone summarize the steps in loading a percussion weapon? And what about the Colt Revolver such as the one mentioned above, or the Navy Colt of 52? Were these cartridge-firing weapons? I have also seen a quote from a Mexican War veteran which mentioned "double barrel shotguns"...were these breech-loading percussion weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

Through a bizarre coincidence with no grounds other than cosmic syncopation, I happen to have an NRAjournal in the house, from Feb 2005, from wehich I glean that the Sharps and the Henry were both flintlocks of the falling-block design at the beginning of the era of breech-load guns. Alexander Henry patented a side-hammer falling-block design in 1865 using a centerfire cartridge. The Sharps during the same period were experimenting with a self-contained rimfire cartridge.

Hentry (whose later development of the Henry-Martini rifle was world-renowned) did away with the Sharps complex multi-part firing pin assembly for a simpler one opiece pin that was retracted by a coil spring. He also dramatically improved the trigger guard and safety device. The big heavy firelock on the Sharps was replaced with a sleeker more streamlined lighter lock in the Henry. The weight of the Henry was much less than the Sharps single-shot rifle which weighed 10, 15 or even 20 pounds. Contrast markedly with the Henry's 7.5 pounds with a 28 inch barrel.

Data excerpted from "1stFreedom" magazine, Feb 2005.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

I think percussion loading was just slightly faster than flintlock, but much more versatile in various ways. Powder from a powder horn can get wet, spill, or blow away in a wind while one is trying to load it. As for loading, one would put some black powder down the gun barrel, then a wad, then a lead ball, then another wad...all done by using a ramrod to push them down...then mount a percussion cap on the little round holder where the firing pan used to be on the flintlock, then aim and shoot. The percussion cap held a tiny charge which would go off on impact like a cap in a cap gun, thus setting off the black powder in the main firing chamber and shooting the bullet.

Early pistols were one shot flintlocks, or two shot if they had two barrels, or three shot if they had three barrels, etc...The same basic arrangement followed with percussion cap pistols. After the invention of modern cartridges it was easy to have a fast-loading six-shooter with a rotating barrel. I think there were percussion six-shooters with rotating barrels too, and 6 percussion caps. It took a fair bit longer to load them, needless to say. In the heat of close battle you would shoot off whatever rounds you had, then resort to a saber or edged weapon or whatever else came to hand...and use the gun itself as a small club.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:13 PM

http://mntnweb.com/hobby/gun/colt.htm

 The Colt Model 1860 Army was probably the largest produced and most widely used of all handguns in the civil war by both sides. This weapon was issued to the US cavalry at the time as well.  There were many differant models and variations made of this basic model as well as other Colt handguns that were used. Interestingly the Union forces liked the Colt 1851 Navy so much they purchased many of these handguns to be used by both the army and the navy troops.


 Colt used the engraved cylinder as a form of copy protection. Many reproductions were being made in other countrys and by other companies in America as well. By using an engraved scene on the cylinder it was proof that you had an original Colt handgun. Colt also used a Patent number engraved upon the cylinder. There were so many similar styles and designs of these two models it is hard at times to differentiate between them all.


 The Colt 1861 navy and 1860 army models used a round barrel with internal rifling,they came in both .36 caliber and .44 caliber for the navy and .44 caliber for the Army versions.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 06:19 PM

From 1836 to 1842, the "Patent Arms Manufacturing Company" of Paterson, New Jersey made Samuel Colt's revolvers, hence the general term "Paterson Colt." These were both rifles and handguns. Handgun calibers included .36, .40, and .47. They were made both with and without loading rods. Although Colts were highly thought of by frontiersmen, including Kit Carson, and saw service with the Texas Rangers on the frontier, and the U.S. Army in the Seminole War, the firm went bankrupt in 1842.


2. The "Army" Models


The Colt firm was revived with the introduction in 1847 of the "Walker" model "Walker" model in (nominally) .44 caliber, which saw use in the Mexican War of 1848. These were namedd after Captain Samuel Walker of the United States Mounted Rifles, who had used Paterson models, and contacted Colt with suggestions for improving the arm. The resulting behemoth had an overall length of 15.5", a 9" barrel and weighed approximately 4.75 lbs. It could be loaded with a .45 caliber round ball, or a conical weighing 220 grains. Powder charge was 50 to 60 grains. The ballistics were superior to any cartridge arm until the introduction of the .357 Magnum in 1935. By comparison, the original .45 Colt cartridge was loaded with a 250 grain bullet and 40 grains of powder.


The Walker had several flaws which needed to be fixed. Most seriously, there were metallurgical problems which led to a number of the guns exploding when they were fired. This contributed to the very low survival rate of this model, of which only about 1000 were made. The loading lever was held up by a spring latch, which unfortunately would often release the lever under the influence of recoil, causing the cylinder to bind. The sheer size of the piece made handling cumbersome. Despite these drawbacks, the Colt Walker was superior to the single shot muzzle loading pistols of the era, as well as the relatively few competing repeaters. It was enough to keep Colt's in business.

The Walker was replaced by the .44 caliber Model of 1848 Holster Pistol, A/K/A the "First Model Dragoon." This was slightly smaller than the Walker, at about 4.5 lbs, and was provided with a positive latch for the loading lever. A key identifying feature is the oval-shaped cylinder stops.

The cylinder engravings on the Dragoons depicts a battle between Indians and the U.S. Mounted Rifles (A/K/A Dragoons).

The Second Model Dragoon came next, and differed in details like the square cylinder stops and loading lever latch.

The Third Model Dragoon, produced 1858 - 1861, is relatively rare. The main identifying feature is the leaf rear sight mounted on the barrel. These pieces were cut for a shoulder stock, which when fitted turned the revolver into a carbine.

In 1860 Colt introduced the ultimate single-action percussion combat handgun, the New Army Model in .44 caliber. This is a noticeably smaller arm than the Walkers and Dragoons, though still a big piece. The size reduction was accomplished by mating a rebated cylinder to the 1851 Navy Model's frame. The 1860 Army also features a streamlined profile and a new, ratcheting or "creeping" loading lever. It's a very sleek and well-balanced arm.


The 1860 Army can take up to 35 grains of powder and a .45 caliber ball or bullet,er ball or bullet, producing energy levels on par with .38 Special +P loading.


3. The "Navy" Models


The first of the post-Paterson Colts suitable for use as a service arm yet small enough to be carried in a belt holster was the Model of 1851. This is my favorite. The common names for this model are the "Colt Navy" or "1851 Colt." It was a great favorite on the frontier before, during, and after the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression. This is in spite of ballistics which by today's standards are pretty wimpy - a .375 to .380 ball/bullet ahead of 28 grains of powder. (I guess this says something about our preoccupation with "stopping power.") James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickcock is said to have favored the Navy Colt, although he is also known to have used the M1860 Army.


The Colt Navy can be identified by the 7.5" octagonal barrel and the scene engraved on the cylinder. (Navies with barrels shorter than 7.5" from the factory are extremely rare.) It depicts a battle between the Texas and Mexican Navies on May 16, 1843.


The first 2500 or so Navy Colts had squareback triggerguards, and some Navies were cut for shoulder stocks. One interesting accessory produced for this model is a shoulder stock which was hollowed out to serve as a canteen.
as a canteen.

In 1861 Colt introduced a new Navy model incorporating the streamlined round barrel contour and creeping loading lever of the M1860 Army, but retaining the .36 caliber of the M1851. This is one of the rarer Colts. Relatively few were made and it was produced alongside the old favorite, the M1851 Navy.


4. Pocket Models


While Colt's belt and holster pistols have attracted most of the attention of shooters and collectors, in terms of sheer numbers produced, Colonel Colt's "pocket" revolvers stand out. There were some very compact guns produced in the Paterson factory, but the first truly successful Colt hideout gun was the Model 1848 "Baby Dragoon" in .31 caliber.


The gun held 5 shots in its cylinder, and easily recognizable by its lack of a loading lever. Balls were forced into the chambers by dismounting the barrel and cylinder, then using the cylinder base pin as a ramrod.

In 1849 the Baby Dragoon was further refined with the addition of a loading lever, similar to those found on the Dragoon and Navy models. The M1849 could be had with barrels of 4", 5" or 6".

The "New Model Pocket Pistol of Navy Caliber," or "Pocket Navy" is, in essence, a Baby Dragoon modified with a .36 caliber barrel and rebated cylinder on theed cylinder on the .31-size frame.

In 1862, Colt introduced the "Pocket Police," again on the Baby Dragoon sized frame, but fitted with a fluted, rebated cylinder chambered in .36 caliber. It also has the sleek round barrel and creeping loader of the 1860 Army. It was made until 1872.

5. The Model of 1855 Revolvers

I have separated the M1855 pattern Colts because of their dissimilarity to the other percussion Colt arms. They are distinguished by a solid frame with top strap, spur trigger and the hammer which is mounted on the right side of the frame. These models are relatively rare and no one makes reproduction, so you are unlike to see one outside of a book or a very complete museum collection. They were small and bored in .265 and .36 calibers.


The 1855 Colt's were based on the patent of E.K. Root, Colt's factory foreman, and are often called "Root Revolvers."


The Root models were also made as shotguns and .56 rifle muskets. The latter saw service during the Civil War as the first issue arm of Berdan's Sharpshooters. The Colt rifles did not stand up well in this role; ironically it may have been the case that Berdan's men, being true shooting enthusiasts, took too much care of their rifles, of their rifles, thus causing accelerated wear. The Sharpshooters soon turned in their Colt's for Sharps single shot breechloaders.

Conclusion

The essay above represents a sketch of the different models revolvers which the Colt company produced during the percussion era. It doesn't touch upon many of the details separating different variants. Doing that requires a book. For those interested in learning more about these arms, I can recommend reading A History of the Colt Revolver and the Other Arms Made by Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company From 1836 to 1940, by Charles T. Haven and Frank A. Belden, Bonanza Books, NY 1940.

Copyright © 1997-2000, David S. Markowitz.  Please feel free to quote or reproduce this article in its entirety, with this attribution, and for noncommercial purposes only. 

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: HuwG
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 07:45 PM

I understand that the Mexican Army of 1846-1848 was armed with the British "Brown Bess" musket (probably the "East India" pattern, introduced in 1803, or just possibly some the 1839 pattern, the last flintlock model introduced, which was manufactured to better standards than previous models but otherwise no different).

The British Army had begun converting their existing stocks of muskets from flintlock to percussion firing in 1840. (A fire at the Woolwich arsenal in 1840 destroyed large numbers of muskets under conversion, so a new version with percussion firing was manufactured in 1842). However, I doubt whether the Mexican Army had received percussion weapons, or converted any of their existing stocks.

I once heard some folklore that because the powder used in Mexican ammunition was very old and of variable quality, Mexican troops were in the habit of pouring the powder from two cartridges into the barrel, followed by only one bullet. If the powder had not deteriorated, the resulting recoil threatened to dislocate shoulders and the large flash from the priming pan could give painful facial burns. As a result, Mexican soldiers habitually fired from the hip, or at least aimed only cursorily.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 05 - 09:53 PM

There were several guns made with more than one barrel including one called a Paradox Rifle. The Germans made double barreled shotguns with a single rifle barrel underneath called Drillings. These guns would have been common place around the time of the Mexican war. Officers purchased firearms and were not always using issued weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 12:46 PM

...Drillings. These guns would have been common place around the time of the Mexican war.

Bullshit.

from wehich I glean that the Sharps and the Henry were both flintlocks of the falling-block design

Then you - or they- gather wrong.

It may come as a shock to some people that the sum of all human knowledge is not available on-line and that a good deal of what IS posted on websites is complete and utter crap- reposted and perpetuated- but crap none the less.

Some times ya just gotta resort to -GASP! BOOKS! for the straight dope. Preferably books by knowledgeable authors known in the field & who actually know & understand what they're writing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:21 PM

AMERICAN PARADOX CIRCA 1850. THREE BARRELS INCLUDING TWO SHOTGUN BARRELS OF 16MM BORE, AND AN ADJUSTABLE SIGHTED RIFLE BARREL OF 9MM BORE. BARRELS HAVE A LOCKING RELEASE CATCH TO BE ALLOWED TO REVOLVE. EACH BARREL HAS ITS OWN WOODEN RAM-ROD. NICKLE STOCK FURNITURE WITH A SMALL PATCH BOX BARRELS 30 INCHES, OVERALL LENGTH 46 INCHES.

AKA in Germany as drillings....

For those who think this is bullshit. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:32 PM

Greg:

I may have misused the term flintlocks. But if you will notice, I cited my source, and it was not on-line; it was the membership magazine of the National Rifle Association.

I think it would be more helpful if you would take the trouble to correct any misinformation here, rather than just dismiss it rudely.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 01:50 PM

general information during the time frame you are looking at, interesting detail

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 05:45 PM

Guest Dunce: the operative misused word is "commonplace"- inappropriate & misleading for these very expensive, one-off multiple-barrel firearms in either the U.S. or Germany in 1850. Also, I believe your "source" is incorrect in his/her date attribution for this particular piece- what IS your source?

it would be more helpful if you would take the trouble to correct any misinformation here

Sorry, Amos, but there aren't enough hours in the day for me to do that, helpful tho it might be to some.

The answers to the questions originally posed are NOT simple ones, require assimilating a LOT of information to be answered correctly and completely, and reliable info is not generally available on-line. When I see crap posted, I'll say so.

I attempted to point folks in the right direction with the book recommendations made, above, and that's about all I CAN realistically do. Rest is up to the person/people looking for the information to do the work to get it.

The truth will set you free ...... but it won't necessarily make you happy.

Best,

Greg

PS you may find

Blackmore, Howard L: British military firearms, 1650-18501961

useful as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 06:16 PM

Steps in loading ANY shoulder-fired muzzleloading weapon:

1. Put the lock to half-cock.
2. Pour a measured amount of powder down the barrel (this can be froma pre-made cartridge).
3. Bounce the butt of the weapon on the ground or whack it about the lock with your hand to settle the powder.
4. Place a lubricated patch on the muzzle (the lube can be tallow, special concoctions, bacon grease, spit...there are a million recipes for lubes).
5. Place a ball on the patch and "start" it down the barrel (with a short-starter, a wooden mallet, the ramrod...). (NOTE: You can also use the cartridge paper as a patch. The patch is used to seal the gases behind the ball and thereby provide more accuracy and power.)
6. Using the ramrod, drive the ball down to the powder -- preferably with one motion. GENTLY tap the ball to insure it's well seated.

6A. For percussion locks: place a percussion cap on the nipple of the lock, and gently gently lower the cock from half-cock to the nipple. If you're going to shoot right away, pull the cock to full cock, aim, and fire -- and repeat the steps above.

6B. For flintlock: with the lock still at half-cock, raise the frizzen and place a few grains of priming powder (modern 4F) in the pan and close the frizzen. Either lower the lock and flint to the uncocked position, or pull the lock back and, after assuring yourself that the flint is well and truly in place, aim and fire. If you must, you can use a few grains of powder from the cartridge or any powder in the pan -- priming powder just works better.

7. After firing, run a ramrod and patch down the bore. This will help put out any remaining powder that might be smoldering and prevent you from getting a nasty surprise when you reload (see step 1, above).

Now, consider those oldtimers who could reload a flintlock while at a dead run...or on horseback...or on the deck of a rolling ship...or when prone...or while being shot at...or while in a tree...or....

This is from my own experience as someone who shoots muzzleloaders. Loading a single-shot percussion or flint pistol is like loading a rifle. Loading a revolver...well, you have to seat balls in the chambers that are slightly (0.451" for a .44 caliber) oversize, grease the ends of the chambers to prevent chainfire, and try to insure that your caps don't fly off the nipples with your first shot. Caps flying off are embarassing on a range and could be fatal in combat; chainfire -- when all of the chambers in the cylinder fire more or less at once -- can be fatal anywhere, but it IS impressive as all hell. The chainfirer will need several days bedrest afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 05 - 06:17 PM

Oh and Guest:

Your "source" is actually describing what is properly known as a "combination gun" or "swivel breech" gun- the paradox gun was a breech-loading weapon invented by George Vincent Fosbery, V.C. and patented by the British firm of Holland & Holland in 1885.

It was basically a double (heavy) shotgun with the barrels rifled for several inches at the muzzle so that it could be used with solid projectiles with reasonable accuracy. The rifling also functioned as a alchoke for use with shot.

The term "drilling" ordinarily applies to a breech-loading combination gun using fixed ammunition.

Last correction I'm going to make, Amos. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:34 AM

Greg you are wrong. my source is far more knowledgable than you are. The Paradox in question is a muzzleloading firearm from 1850. Mounted officers frequently purchased pistols and long arms for their own use. The ability to fire more than one shot from a muzzle loader being very important, as it was almost impossible to reload in the saddle. Part of the question was about double barreled firearms in use during the period 1850 to 1860. Paradox were made in both 2 and 3 barreled rifles and shotgun combo's. I was also the Guest who posted the information on the conversion of flintlocks into percussion arms. You are both rude, and ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

OK, then: why do you refuse to cite this wonderful and mysterious "source", oh omniscient and infallible guest?

Yes, there were multiple-barreled flintlock and percussion weapons manufactured in the U.S.(and Europe) in the first half of the 19th Century. Yes, double fowlers/shotguns were fairly common. So were multi-barreled and "pepperbox" type pistols. Yes, officers regularly purchased long arms and side arms to suit their individual fancy- some of quite bizzare design.

And yes, the U.S. govt. undertook to convert many flintlocks to percusion ignition- tho you're a bit confused- I made no comment about this one way otr the other.

No, three barreled combination guns were not "common". No, they were not known as "Paradox Guns". They are incorrectly called that today by some uninformed "collectors" and compilers of "How Much Is Your Antique Gun Worth"-type publications.

PS: Have you ever read any of the books I've cited?

(OK, Amos, OK- so I lied.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:48 AM

From Claude E. Fuller, The Rifled Musket, p. 3:

The model 1842 smooth-bore percussion musket, of which there were about 167,000 on hand at the beginning of hostilities [the US Civil War], was, with the xception of the change from flintlock to percussion, exactly the same as the Model 1840 flintlock, and it still used the .69-caliber round-ball charge. It occupies the unique position of being our last regulation smooth-bore and our first regulation percussion-lock, and also enjoys the distinction of being our first regulation arm to be produced in or National armories on the completely interchangeable plan. this is confirmed by the report of H. K. Craig, Colonel of Ornance, to Jefferson Davis, Secretary of War, dated March 17, 1854....

I won't get into it, as the information covers many pages, but I heartily recommend a copy of the Dixie Gun Works Catalog. The last sixty or so pages are a wealth of information, including a list of the proofmarks of all the inspectors of US military arms and when they were made.

Randal Marcy, in his book on crossing the plains (circa 1847 -- I don't have my copy at hand) stated that the Colt revolving long gun was the best possible weapon.

Since talking guns can be as acrimonious as talking religion or politics, I'll see what I can dig up on US military firearms of the Mexican War period. Keep in mind that this will be on the issued firearms, not those carried by militia units or as "private" arms carried by individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 10:12 AM

the Colt revolving long gun was the best possible weapon

Major drawback to the Colt Root Revolving Rifle was that it had no useable forearm grip-

Placing your hand forward of the cylinder gap could be detrimental to hand, wrist and arm when it functioned properly. When there were multiple discharges- not all that uncommon with percussion cylinders-
the shooter could end up with the nickname "Stubby".

One of those firearms that killed (or maimed) at both ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:10 AM

http://www.michaeldlong.com/

under menu go to shop.. percussion long arms and view three examples of paradox rifles

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM

OK, I'm with you now- if you want accurate historical information on 19th Century U.S. Firearms, go to a UK gun dealer/auctioneer. You might consider consulting published U.S. authoritiea at some point. Just a suggestion.

Now, these types of multiple-barrelled weapons MAY be referred to as 'paradox' guns in the UK (other than by this one dealer) but certainly ain't so on this side of the pond.

Perhaps you could clarify what the term "paradox" actually means to Messers. Long, as they apply it to a regular back-action lock double percussion shotgun, an over-and-under side-hammer (or mule-ear)
rifle/shotgun combination gun, and the three barrel swivel breech combination gun originally mentioned.

Also, nowhere do Messers. Long comment on the history of these weapons, or how "common" they were at any time or place. And they don't call 'em "drillings".

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:01 PM

I like the idea of a paradox gun. Sounds like something off the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

"The paradox gun. Developed, it is believed, on Nonyfrirt 7 in the Egglusian galaxy by Gunther Rankenbankenwanken. The principle is that instead of killing people it simply confuses them by shooting inexplicable parodoxes into their thought patterns. It worked perfectly well and stopped many enemies from causing wanton destruction until the Z'nhars of Z'naharthia tried to use it on an invading force of Wallonshoosh guerillas who, being unable to understand thought process, took the gun and used it to beat out the brains of their enemies."

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

Sorry for the stupid thread hijck btw - I just can't help myself at times...

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:49 PM

No, Greg F., I am reported what Randall Marcy said in about 1847. Wouldn't have one of them, myself -- and I don't although I do have a .44 Colt 1861 repro, an 1858 Remington New Army repro in .44, a .45 "Kentucky" pistol in percussion, a double-barrel .36 smoothbore "Ethan Allen" percussion pistol, and several percussion long guns (I'm working on a flintlock .58 jaeger right now). I also have cartridge guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:14 PM

Thanks all! A most interesting discussion seasoned with some healthy acrimony. No, I'm not looking to become an expert on firearms of this period, although I might cherry-pick information from the books recommended. I'm simply seeking to get a reasonable idea of what sort of weapons were used in the era, and what logistics were involved in their use.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST,Ironmule
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:26 PM

Lonesome, if the argument hasn't driven you off, you could do a lot worse than to read Major-General B. P. Hughes book "Firepower -weapons effectiveness on the battlefield, 1630-1850". It'll give you an overview of why the Army took certain weapons into the battlefield during a war, and what they expected to get back. Its very well illustrated.

The recommendation of the last pages of the Dixie Gunworks Catalog is an excellant way to get an easily available view of firearms history in that period. While the rest of the catalog has pictures and dimensions of common and rare equipement of the time, and will make you realize how complex firearms were to maintain when put in the hands of farmboy recruits.



Jeff Smith, sometimes NRA firearms safety instructor, longtime history nut and flintlock shooter.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST,Ironmule
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 02:28 PM

I hate it when I crosspost with somebody while I type and then look for typo's.


Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 04:04 PM

No, Greg F., I am reporting what Randall Marcy said in about 1847

No, No- I realize that- wasn't meant to be argumentative, only to point out the thing's drawbacks.

Wonder if Marcy could hit anything with one, mounted on horseback, and supporting the darn thing with only one hand gripping it by the wrist of the stock?    ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 05:07 PM

The Colt revolving rifle (or carbine) reminds me of the so-called "Buntline Special." Both were interesting ideas, and that was about it.

I think that Marcy was thinking of the inherent firepower in the repeating firearm, not the inherent flaws.

Interestingly, at least to me, he reported that the single greatest cause of death and injury on the "Trail" was misuse of firearms -- especially grabbing one by the barrel and pulling it towards you. Sort of thing that would get you killed then and will get you killed now.

I think that I made a mistake in his first name; I think that it was Randolph, not Randall.

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: Rex
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

Oho! Didn't know there was such a discussion going on. A look back at the cap and ball revolvers and reloading. It's true that once you fired all rounds in the cylinder in battle, it was not handy to reload. A solution was to carry extra cylinders. Some carried this idea further and just carried say, four revolvers. Another means to quicker reloading was paper cartridges. Instead of a round ball, you use a conical bullet, cut from a pattern a nitrated paper cartridge. Then a set charge of powder is placed in the cartridge with the bullet seated/glued in the top. These cartridges would be kept in a cartridge box. I use these. The primary difference between the idea of the paper cartridge and later metal ones is they cannot be removed after loading except to fire them.

Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Firearms of the 1840s and 1850s
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 05:12 PM

Incidentally, "Drilling" is the German word for "triple". It would seem to me that any three-barrelled gun could be referred to as a "Drilling" (certainly in soldier-speak).