BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

I heard the tape of this exchange ... Ken sounded pissed (as in UK pissed i.e., had a few glasses of free alcohol) and the reporter just asked "how did it go?" (meaning the party)...

What followed was entirely an ungracious and needlessly aggressive response from Ken, that then just got worse with ratcheted up, and increasingly offensive, deliberately, provocative remarks to mild-mannered objections from the reporter. (Either that or the tape had been edited - and Ken hasn't denied the tape evidence of what he said).

Ken sounded like a stupid, ignorant, out-of-order prat - if he isn't, then a personal apology wouldn't come amiss to someone who was just doing a job .... would it be okay to abuse e.g. traffic wardens just because they are doing their jobs? Or e.g. doctors'receptionists because they are doing a job?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM

Mr. McG of H - it must be YOUR own racism that percieves the charactor in the cartoon as a JEW.

Since he is naked and feeling another guy - it is obvious to the rest of us that the rendering is GAY.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:40 PM

Nemesis you heard a tape of part of the exchange. It was shown on Uk TV and the reporter was well deserving of the response he eventually provoked.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:09 PM

It seems only Rush Limbaugh can use the word nazi without rebuke.

Since when are nazi prison guards "off limits' for derisive comment?
Now that the USA tortures prisoners routinely I suppose being called a nazi prison guard here does not have the punch it used to have.

I am all for calling present day fascists Nazis, even though it is not accurate.

As for the reporter that brought his religion into the mix, there are in fact fascist Jews out there and he may or not be one of them.
IT is bad form to make reporters the story...unless you are right wing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 09:35 PM

Maybe it might have been more politic for Ken to have suggested that the journalist in question might get a job as a guard in Guantanamo or Bagram or Abu Ghraib...

Perhaps he could phrase his explanation along those lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:29 PM

I fear still get the impression that the reporter (and the Board) seem that feel that whether or not KL's remarks were otherwise defensible, the reporter should be exempted because he was Jewish.

Oh for the sense of a another partner in a firm in which I was once a partner. The conversation was of winter immunisations. Another person committed a spoonerism, intending to refer to his "Flu Jab". Quick as a flash, Ashley replied "You can't say that around here you know". He too was being self-satirising, being on a diet at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: mindblaster
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:18 AM

Nemesis - The recording that you heard broadcast was made when Ken was leaving the party, the reporter had been baiting him for about an hour and a half prior to that.

The reporters agenda/orders was clear - "Go get some dirt"

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:45 AM

Would it be considered offensive if someone were to accuse an over demanding Black employer of being a slave driver?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:10 AM

I give up. Whatever i say, i'm going to end up offending someone...so i'd just like to take this oppertunity to declare that i hate everyone in the whole wide world with a passion, regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation or shoe size. You're all a bunch of b*****ds, and i despise each and every one of you! :0) There, sorted!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: EagleWing
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 AM

A few years ago I was teaching a year 6 class in an inner city school. A lad, who happened to be of mixed parentage, came to me and accused another boy of making racist remarks. I thought that was strange because normally the two of them were pretty friendly.

I asked the "offender" why he had made racist remarks, if he had actually done so.

It transpired that the conversation went something like this:

1st boy:   You need a wash!
2nd boy:   I'm not the one with black skin!

I asked both boys why it was more offensive to make the second remark than to make the first.

They agreed that both remarks were offensive and the following day were friends again.

But that could have turned into a major problem if the press or even the parents had known about it.

I don't know if it's really relevant to the discussion but it came to me as I read some of the posts here.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:15 AM

I mean, would it be considered offensive to Black people in general, rather than just to the individual being criticised?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM

Very good and pertinent example, EagleWing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM

If you read what Livingston has said you'll see that he never has used the word 'Nazi'. He has used the word 'German'. I've read many articles in the English press and the posts here in Mudcat and have not seen a single mention or realisation how easily in Britain the word 'Nazi' and the word 'German' can be exchanged for each other. Livingston could have said 'war criminal' (not only German have been war criminals and all the recent cases have come from somewhere else), he could have said 'Nazi war criminal' but he has said 'German war criminal' just as if the word 'German' can be used readily in Britain as an additional insult or to give a planned insult an extra impetus.

The British press and the good people of Mudcat would have commented had Livingston said 'Gypsy thief' insteda of only 'thief' and if he has said 'Irish terrorist' or 'Muslim terrorist' instead of only 'terrorist' but 'German war criminal' goes down well without even noticing.

Livingston being drunk is a very sad excuse, I doubt someone here would use that excuse in the case of a fatal car accident. To even mention it an excuse is completely irrelevant since Livingston the next morning didn't say sorry. Or do you want to imply that he is always drunk?

My impression is that many of you first lokk whether you like him and after having decided 'he's one of us' look for every lame excuse.

I don't think that he should apologise to Jews for anti-semitism, I do not see a good reason for that demand in this case, but I think he should apologise to an individual he has insulted with purpose. If he can't do that he loses as a politician and as a human. But I never had the impression that admitting an error was one of his strengths.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: EagleWing
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:41 PM

"I don't think that he should apologise to Jews for anti-semitism, I do not see a good reason for that demand in this case, but I think he should apologise to an individual he has insulted with purpose. If he can't do that he loses as a politician and as a human. But I never had the impression that admitting an error was one of his strengths."

I certainly don't think Ken should apologise to someone who had, apparently, been baiting him for an hour and a half. If he does so it declares him "open season" for any one who thinks it clever to throw insults at him.

I do think, though, that he might make a statement that he did not intend to insult the German nation.

On the other hand, I wonder how many of us would make stupid errors like that if we were placed under the same pressure that Ken was placed under (assuming that reports about the party were true.)

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:56 PM

If Adolph and his friends had payed us a visit in 1941-2, we would not now be debating the niceties of political correctness...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:09 PM

I don't like Livingstone, but I like even less the harrassment that is taken as being the right of certain areas of the Press.

The analogy with a fatal road accident won't wash - it is illegal to drive a car under the influence of alcohol and anyone who does so and causes an accident is open to extreme censure. To have had a few too many at a party and to, maybe, snap as a result of a continuous barrage of unpleasantness is not the same thing. Has the reporter apologised for putting Livingstone under that sort of pressure? Has he suggested that he might have been over sensitive to the remarks made and may have taken them in a way that was not meant? It would appear that this man is making use of his ethnic background to score what points he could from what would seem to have previously been an unsatisfactory evening's work for him, in that he had been unable to get Livingstone to rise to the bait up to that point and to say something newsworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:03 PM

If you read what Livingston has said you'll see that he never has used the word 'Nazi'. He has used the word 'German'. I've read many articles in the English press and the posts here in Mudcat and have not seen a single mention or realisation how easily in Britain the word 'Nazi' and the word 'German' can be exchanged for each other.


Very true Wolfgang. Sadly very true. It is one of the worst aspects of much of the press, and large sections of society.

It (IMO) stems from the constant reminders of WWII. As it marked the end of empire, and the last time Britian was a significant world power, it becomes an easy reminiscence, and a form of Anti-Americanism, as it recalls a time when we weren't so dependant on the US.

But one would hope mudcat would be above such simple programming. The insults are normally fairly personal round here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:07 PM

I too can't see any particular reason to apologise to the individual. He giot a good storyn out of it, and it has probably helped his career, and he didn't suffer any harm whatsoever.   If that's the worst insult he's ever had he must have led a pretty sheltered life, which I somehow doubt.

Nor can I see how there is any insult implied towards Jews in generral, or towards the man himself, as a Jew. It'd make sense for Livingstine to say that, since some people seem to have taken it that way.

It's true enough he said "German" where "Nazi" would have been been more appropriate. I suppose logically be argued that most concentration camp guards in the War in fact weren't Nazis - but then many of them weren't German either. However given that the Nazis were in charge of it all that woudl have been a more appropriate term.

And since todays's German can't fairly be seen as carrying any blame for what their fathers (and in more cases their grandfathers) did, an expression of regret for that would make sense as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:33 PM

And another thing Wolfgang...

It seems quite hard to view a rich, educated country, like Germany as victims. Some of your examaples: 'Gypsy thief' instead of only 'thief', use small minorities that are easily seen as victims. It's alot easier to carelessly insult sucessful people, or groups as nobody believes it will matter.

As I know a large number of people here in Edinburgh who have came here from Germany to study or work, I will see what their views are.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:13 PM

I must say I am amused by the idea that KL should apologise to the German nation. What a good manoeuvre! It would be a far better thing to do than to apologise to the journalist. But might it not be a bit like throwing petrol on the flames, in that some would undoubtedly suggest that he was apologising to the Germans for likening them to Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 06:25 PM

He could do a 'to any people I have offended' apology, and leave it open to interpretation. Probably safer in the long run than setting himself up again.
Wonder how much bonus the reporter recieved for getting his paper so much coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:01 PM

The reporter was using his Jewishness as a weapon.
Live by the sword...

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:12 PM

Right, and blacks use their color as a weapon and gay men use their sexual orientation as a weapon. What a dumb remark.

Do you use your Irishness as an excuse for some mental defieciencies?

Please get real.

I don't know Ken Livingstone and I don't want to.

Long live Mayor Daley

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: John O'L
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 08:22 PM

Martin -
Why do you think the reporter mentioned his Jewishness?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 05:00 AM

The Mail has consistently flirted with the far right - writing admiring leaders in praise of Hitler in the Thirties and even publishing a pattern for a black shirt so readers could show their support for Oswald Mosely!
The Standard, which was bought by the Mail from the Express, has had a rather more schizophrenic history. In the seventies and eighties it followed the tabloid pack in demonising 'Red Ken'. But under editor Max Hastings it enjoyed a level of political maturity and respectability that the Mail did not; to such an extent that the group's editor in chief, Paul Dacre, was continually irked by what he saw as the Standard's 'pink agenda'.
So, when Max retired, Dacre installed an editor who would do his bidding, and under Veronica Wadley the paper has lurched rightwards and downmarket, becoming what its own staff now dismissively call 'The Baby Mail'. With this has come a series of snide and vitriolic attacks on Livingstone, who still has a unique place in the right's pantheon of hate figures. I see no reason for Livingstone to apologise, and I see Finegold (a young freelance) as a naive pawn in the whole process.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: breezy
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 06:25 AM

there is a song with a verse as follows


Now Goldberg ,he's a jewboy, an interesting chap.
Whenever he's not underground he wears his little cap.
he's not exactly powerful but he works until he dropw
And when we come to tally up ,its Goldie comes out tops.
Dont ask him about his family, he just goes kind of quiet.Dont ask him about the Germans.lest you want to start a riot.
But another tub of coal is another buried Hun
And he wont stop hauling coals intil we've won


Chorus
aint it hard, aint it hard
Bevin Boys they called us
'Down the mine ' they said.
They never gave us a uniform ,just a helmet for our heads.
But we're just as good as our brothers who are serving on the line
the Bevin Boys are working down the mine



The song is 5 verses long, this is v 4


it describes life being a Bevin Boy during WW11 in Britain!!

Only in recent years were they acknowledged and allowed to march at the Cenotaph

Guess what happened next as I was singing this in the street as recently as last Saturday.!!!!!

song 'Bevin Boys' by Tony Geen which won the Maidenhead Folk Club songwriting competition 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:05 PM

To the ... journalist I say this. You are responsible for your own actions....

If the ...journalist had expressed regret for his behaviour on the street I would have been happy to withdraw my comments (Livingstone, in the same press conference)

Does this man not realise that these two thoughts do not go well together?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:33 PM

They seem to go perfectly well together to me. Ken says that his comments were a response to the journalist's behavour, for which he was personally responsible (ie no "I was only obeying orders"), and that if he had expressed regret for that behaviour, he would have been happy to withdraw those comments.   

Where's the inconsistency? It's not as if Ken was saying that someone else was responsible for his actions or words.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

Reading that through, it gets a bit confusing, what with all those "he's". So again:

They seem to go perfectly well together to me. Ken says that his comments were a response to the journalist's behavour, for which the journalist was personally responsible (ie no "I was only obeying orders"). If the journalist had expressed regret for that behaviour, Ken said that he would have been happy to withdraw his own comments.   

Where's the inconsistency? It's not as if Ken was saying that someone else was responsible for his own actions or words.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Mk
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 01:46 PM

Its about time someone stood up to the racist press, even resulting from this - so well done to KL for this.

However it might be best for London if he says "no offence was meant but regrets any that may have been caused" and then with even more credibilty, make his political statement by continously and relentlessly championing the anti racism stance against racist media.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:06 PM

Surely that's more or less what he did say?

"...He added that over the past two weeks his "main concern" was for many Jewish Londoners, and regretted if his comments "may have been seen to downplay the horror and magnitude of the Holocaust".

"I wish to say to Londoners my words were not intended to cause such offence and that my view remains that the Holocaust against the Jews is the greatest racial crime of the 20th century...."

As for the suggestion that the newspaper group involved has any right to point accusingly at anyone for racism - once again I draw your attention to a vile racist cartoon which was published in the Daily Mail only last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:29 PM

And today he has gone to bat against the Mail again. You have to admire the man for his balls of steel!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:47 PM

McGrath,

in my eyes, the attitude 'I would withdraw my comments if the other guy first..." fits not well with 'You are responsible for your own actions'.

What hinders Livingstone to take responsibility for his own action and not to hide behind a 'he first' like any schoolboy found out.

I have never liked the newspaper involved, but Livingstone has lost in my eyes here too. If he feels he has the right to fight back to a reporter I'm with him. But why he choose to say 'concentration camp guard' immediately after the reporter has told him he was Jewish insteda of 'obnoxious prick' 'pain in the arse' or 'hireling'. Of all those people who do things just because they are paid for it he only comes up with 'concentration camp guard' as a comparison for the reporter?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 02:52 PM

Kevin,
in fairness - the cartoon you point at is not racist (no race obvious in the drawing). It certainly is chauvinist and xenophobic. Not that the Mail is not well known for its racist attitudes, just that this particular example might not be the best.

Richard,
I do indeed admire Ken for his stance and I hope he sticks to his guns. I think he's wrong on many things, but not in matters of racism and inclusiveness. The Mail has shot itself in the foot in my book, by letting its agenda show.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:51 PM

Well I couldn't swear what "race" the alien concerned is actually supposed to be. But to me he looks distinctly like a caricature of someone from the Middle East, what with that nose an all. And the kind of racism that's been endorsed here doesn't necessarily worry too much about details.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,POET
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 05:54 PM

I DO NOT HATE THE GERMANS BECAUSE THEIR FATHERS BOMBED OUR ROAD.
I WOULD NOT APOLOGISE TO GERMANY BECAUSE MY FATHER BOMBED BERLIN.
I HATE THE MAN WHO RAPED MY GIRL BUT HIS SON DIDN'T COMMIT THAT SIN.
I FEEL NO GUILT FOR HISTORY MY FOREFATHERS MUST CARRY THAT LOAD.

IT PROBABLY DOESN'T SCAN BUT I HOPE YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN,
FROM HATE AND GUILT COMES ONLY DESTRUCTION.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 06:23 PM

Red Ken is not my most favourite politician. Well favourite in that context is a misnomer. However news reporters are not exactly the most considerate of scum. They think that because politicians are mendatious and coniving it makes them fair game. Trouble is that the likes of you and I come in for the same treatment. A simple inconsequential question with evasive answers can invoke an interrogation.
I speak from personal experience.

Princess Di was hounded to death by the scum. Remember that.

they do not do it in my name

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:21 PM

Good on you Ken...

Now thats how all our politicians should behave, with spirit, principle and true to his beliefs.
Contrast Kens words to those of Tony "the weasel" Blair, "Just apologise and move on", as if truth had no meaning or importance.

As I said earlier, I hope ken makes an issue of this, and the people of London and the whole country give him their support.
Maybe its the beginning of a fightback against lies, spin and cynical manipulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Princess Di died because she climbed in a car with a drunk driver, and couldn't be bothered to put on her seat belt.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:18 AM

Ken's refused to apologise once again this morning, and harangued the press in general, and this journalist and his paper in particular, about their objectionable behaviour in pursuing him when he clearly indicated he was unwilling to be interviewed.

Maybe we need more politicians like Ken, who have the courage to stand up for what they believe in and won't kow-tow to political-correctness and the demands of the thought-police?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Simo
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

It is time this ideology stopped. It is just unacceptable to be anti-christian anti-hindu, anti muslim,...is the rest of the world less equal? It has become a tactic to use anti-semetism to protect a small minority's huge interests and increase their power tom the extent that they now can threaten a high ranknig government official career. Would you fall for such a claim if it was propagated by the American Indians? Go figure!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:58 PM

It is time this ideology stopped. It is just unacceptable to be anti-christian anti-hindu, anti muslim,...is the rest of the world less equal? It has become a tactic to use anti-semetism shield to protect a small minority's huge interests and increase their power to the extent that they now can threaten a high ranking government official's career. Would you fall for such a claim if it was propagated by the American Indians? Go figure!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:40 AM

I got a reply to my email I sent supporting KL. It seems Londoners supported him between two to one and three to one.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:35 AM

McGrath of Harlow - and you support the paparatzi in everything they do?

Not the whole truth and you know it. Even a drunk driver at 30 miles an hour can crash, but is unlikely to kill. The car travelled at speed because of the baying hounds who were so considerate they felt that photographs of a dying woman in the carnage was just what the public wanted.

I think the public told the media what they wanted at the funeral, but the media have the microphone so they record history. And most of it is celebrety obsessed lies fed by the publicity seeking "wannabe rich".

Not to people with half a brain they don't.

That car had been taken apart for 6 months to look for eavedropping/location devices. Who placed them there? MI5, scum, blackmailers, tick at least one of the above.

The media needs to be contrite now - not 1 month after Di's death. WE speak for her, who will speak for McGrath of Harlow when he is caught in a story not of his making and unable to avoid the scum? Only those with that half a brain obviously.

Ken was hounded until he snapped. The story was engineered. It is not news, it is not a newspaper. It is a comic and they are just stories. The media have to earn respect as much as politicians and neither are doing too well.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:37 PM

There was another thread recently on Mudcat regarding commemmorating Auschwitz (and other) mass murder in which there was more than one comment on whether there was a point in re-hashing Jewish consciousness of terror, loss and grief. That thread went rather well I thought but here I am tempted to make such a comment myself because I think possibly both sides demean the reference by utilizing it in rather off-hand personal jibes. In these cases, in America, which do occur, and have personally occurred to me, I treat it strictly as one-on-one, because nine times out of ten the remark is thoughtlessly generated out of temporary stupidity, fatigue, or a misplaced attempt to be humorous. I have been personally as prone to error in this regard as anyone else.

This affair makes me want to give each of the participants a little shake and the question: "Are the next words out of your mouth going to make things better or not?"

There was a Seinfeld episode where he rather cruelly tricks his uncle into breaking up with his girlfriend on the (made-up) pretext that she is an anti-semite. After the damage is done, Seinfeld realizes he has made things worse for himself and he works on his uncle to get back with her. "But she's an anti-semite!" the uncle says. Seinfeld gives him a look and says "Can you blame her?"

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM

If these silly lefties invent all this political correct, lets-celebrate-multi-culturaly-enriched-diversity crap, then they have to abide by it.

Ken Livingstone, what a odd man

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Ian
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 04:06 AM

When did Ken state that some one was a Nazi or make reference to Jews?
As far as I recall Concentration Camps were a British inovation in South Africa. The guards were British from a multitude of religious backgrounds. It is also highly posible that the guards did not speak in a respectful manner to their charges.

It is also highly probable that in the German concentration camps not all guards were Nazis and not all prisoners were Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 07:33 PM

1) Boar War. Mostly women and children, many died

2) Roma people lost almost as many as the Jews - but they lacked a cohesive voice.

3) the word holocaust was coined during the Tsarist pograms of Ukraine. The Cossacks fought in WWII with the Germans against the Russians because of the history. I have heard it said that the Russian offensive that created the word Holocaust killed more Ukrainians over a longer period of time. They used to cut off the two fore-fingers of the bandura players because it was seen as a political statement to play the Ukranian music. And the musicians were the lucky ones.

But it was a longer time ago and further away so it didn't happen OK? And wasn't as bad as the Jewish holocaust anyway.

Yea sure........ if you say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

It would seem that there have been even more recent concentration camps, as a result of the Yugoslavian conflict at least. It's just that the German camps were easily found and publicised so widely that the name has become synonymous with that particular era. Even the Japenese camps have not had the enduring infamy of the Eurpean camps. Thus it would be quite natural to make reference to German guards when addressing a hectoring journalist in that way.

From what I can see the man just made capital out of a throwaway remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

100