BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Boab
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 01:02 AM

It is my opinion that if politicians down through the ages had comprised totally of humanitarians of the Ken Livingstone stamp, there would have been no cause arising for the present discussion. I don't agree with all of the man's political statements, but a glance at the ranks of his detractors tends to put him in a good light!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:44 AM

When did Ken state that some one was a Nazi or make reference to Jews? (Ian)

No, he used the word 'German' and not 'Nazi' to give the impression he intended which I have complained about already. No, he didn't use the word 'Jew', he only immediately after the reporter told him he was a Jew compared him to a concentration camp guard. What a sophistic defense!

It is interesting to see the cultural differences in this thread. It might be a consequence of our history, perhaps, but any German politician whatever his prior acceptance would have been would have lost his job with or without apology had he said what Livingstone has said. Support for such a politician would only have come from the far right. In 1991, even the chairman of the Green party, Stroebele, has been forced to renounce for one sentence in an interview which in Mudcat would be considered mainstream opinion.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:08 AM

A follow up. I guess one can predict safely from the original posts who of us is pleased or displeased with this (preliminary) outcome.

Livingstone suspended for a month

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:23 AM

He was democratically elected and only the electorate should decide if suspension is in order. Which it isn't IMO. He is the most unlikely closet racist on this earth and the Daily Mail are just trying to score cheap political points and destablise democracy. The reporter was being provocative and intrusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:39 PM

Tony Blair must be very glad that this business of "doing damage to the reputation of his office" doesn't apply to Prime Ministers.

I'm puzzled how an unelected body, which has no juridical ststus, has the power to suspend an elected official.

Comparing someone to a Nazi prison guard may be bad manners and over the top, but there's no suggestion that Ken broke any law. It was a question of bad taste. In an episode of Seinfeld some authoritarian proprietor of a caff was described as "the Coffee Nazi" - would that have been a reasonable justification for a witch-hunt?

I think Ken wold have done better to button his lip - that kind of insult should be reserved for situatons like Abu Ghraib rather than wasted on some reporter who's stirring. But I'd think that this kind of proceeding by "the Adjudication Panel for England" (daft title) should at most be reserved for cases of deliberate lying and underhanded behaviour in office (for example if Ken Livingstone had acted like Tony Blair did in getting us into his war).

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM

The principal UK reportage so far is in the Evening Standard. Now why do I not feel inclined to trust that?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 02:30 PM

Mr Red you are a fount of (mis) information.

Term Holocaust as a reference to the Nazi extermination of the Jews didn't come about until well after WWII. The term you refer to vis-a-vis Ukrainians is possibly an English translation from an existing Ukrainian or Russian term. Why not do a bit of honest research and start your own thread.

It is true that "ethnic cleansing" occurred among many minorities in Europe over the past few hundred years, Jews not excepted.

I've read that about 2 million Gypsies were killed as part of the Holocaust.

The facts are out there, if you are willing to deal with them and not try to make them fit your preconceived notions and stories.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM

Some silence would be welcome

Mr Livingstone apparently said the Reubens could "go back to Iran and try their luck with the ayatollahs, if they don't like the planning regime or my approach"....
Mr Livingstone's aggressive and intolerant streak now roams widely in search of any opponent he thinks weak and unpopular enough to pick on. ...
he should learn that sometimes the best thing he could do is shut up.


It seems to be a repeating pattern with this man.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 09:56 AM

robomatic - read what is put not what you want to.

the Cossaks fought with the Germans in ww11 "because of history". the word Holocaust was coined to describe the Tsarist treatment of Ukranians which has been described as killing more people than the German campaign against Jews. And was Stalin any better? - as a result they had a grudge to settle by 1939.

FWIW Russians will tell you that Hiltler's war killed more Russians than Jews. Statistics are meaningless without context. And need an open mind to focus properly. Now about weapons of mass destruction and their existence.......................

And as for the number of Roma people, it is not something that can be counted as easily. I defer to my informants - who can get it wrong - the BBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

Mr. Red,

Romani Rose, chairman of the central committee of the German Sinti and Roma, speaks about up to 500,000 (lower estimate: 200,000) Sinti and Roma being killed during the holocaust. He wouldn't use a too small number.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:09 PM

Words are mostly older than the present day meaning. One can quarrel about words without end.

However: Holocaust comes from the Greek and means 'completely burned' (of an animal offering). In this sense, its first use we know of was by Xenophon, roughly 2400 years ago. Well over a hundred times it is found in the Greek bible. I have no idea how this word is translated in the English bible.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:26 PM

So what exactly did the Reubens do that upset the lad this time?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Mar 06 - 12:47 PM

Gutter press hacks are notorious for causing great distress to various individuals and groups, albeit, in most cases, in a way which does not fall into the category of verbal or racial abuse.

Considering that the "reporter" in question decided to take up such disreputable employment in an industry where abuse and character assassination is so common, I find it remarkable that he's been taken so seriously.

If I ever have the misfortune to be pestered by people like that, they'll get far more than a throwaway sarky comment about prison guards!

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:06 AM

The reporter was shit-stirring but he was also dead right. Ken espouses political correctness and shouldn't have spoken like that quite apart from the fact that as a public figure he should expect to be harrassed by the press. Now he's done it again. He's told someone to go back to their own country, just the sort of comment he's supposed to fight against. And then it turns out that Finegold and the Reubens are co-religionists so Ken has now laid himself open to charges of anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:50 AM

Have we bothered to check what actually caused the remark?

Do not necessarily believe all assertions.

Remember the "evidence" that apparently convinced the standards committee that Finegold had not been homophobically provoking guests was....Finegold's tape recorder. Oh, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:08 AM

So a reporter's feelings got hurt. Boo bloody Hoo. Ken Livingstone has said plenty of stupid and insensitive things in his time. He has also consistently stuck his neck out for London and got up the noses of those in power in Westminster, to the extent that the tories even abolished an entire city council to try and get rid of him in the 80s. If you sack every politician who makes a fool of himself from time to time soon no-one will be running the country. Livingstone was elected by the people of London in the face of opposition from the government and his own party leadership. They, and only they, have the right to get rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:18 AM

Hmm...a little rummage seems to indicate that the Reubens story was started by the Evening Standard. The dangers of a hostile press seem to be well revealed.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 04:27 AM

Here is some information aboutthe Reubens Brothers. But note the url.

http://www.reubenbrothers.com/article50.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:43 AM

Wolfgang has made several good points. I think he's right about cultural differences. From the point of view of this outsider (Canadian), it's hard to understand why a public figure of Livingstone's apparent stature wouldn't just make a simple apology ("Sorry to anyone who was offended ..."), and then move on. Why would he want to waste time and energy defending some thoughtless and insensitive remarks he made in anger to an insignificant person? And equally hard to understand why so many on a board such as this would see a simple apology as some kind of surrender to the forces of evil.

I live in a province (Alberta) the premier of which makes a public apology about once a month - the latest was for throwing a book at a young page (as in servant, not paper!) in parliament. That barely made the news. Usually his apologies are met with rolling of eyes, heaving of sighs, and some editorializing ... So - cultural differences?

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

The current British political climate is that any apology or compromise is weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 06:50 PM

So a reporter's feelings got hurt. Boo bloody Hoo. Ken Livingstone has said plenty of stupid and insensitive things in his time. He has also consistently stuck his neck out for London and got up the noses of those in power in Westminster, to the extent that the tories even abolished an entire city council to try and get rid of him in the 80s. If you sack every politician who makes a fool of himself from time to time soon no-one will be running the country. Livingstone was elected by the people of London in the face of opposition from the government and his own party leadership. They, and only they, have the right to get rid of him.

Posted by Chris and wholly endorsed by a very happy Londoner who is proud to be represented by Ken. If we didn't want him holding the position he has we would have voted otherwise. And if he stands again he will get in again. A true prince among thieves.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Flash Company
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:02 AM

Well, Ken has now proved he is not Anti-semetic by making an Anti-Iranian commentto a developer, along the lines of 'Why don't you go back to Teheran and try your luck with the Ayatollahs?'

FC

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, but the developers weren't Iranian. They were born in India of Jewish Iraqi parents. Ken may not be anti-semitic but he ought to think twice about how he says things. After all it's not the Reuben brothers' background that's the problem but how they are acting now ie. upsetting Ken's Olympic plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:56 AM

Nice one, guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

I don't know who is the right or wrong of this malarkey, and reading through this thread hasn't really been all that informative.

However the thread does put me in mind of one day about a couple of years ago - I was gigging at an old peoples residential home somewhere in the depths of Linclonshire.

There was this old cockney lady and she said to me, 'That Ken Livingstone! He's a wonderful man! Yer know, he sticks up for us Londoners!'


with support like that, I think the reporter would have done well to pick on someone his own size.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish repor
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:36 AM

go back to Iran and try their luck with the ayatollahs
What is worrying about that remark is less the attack on a pair of brothers who may be everything from mildly unpleasant to crooks (I just don't know and don't care) but the thinly disguised racism in Livingstone's remarks. 'Iran' (who cares about Iran or Iraq, they are all just the same dark-skinned crowd) in Livingstone's remark is a place that compares badly with a shining London governed by Livingstone in that comparison and 'ayatollahs' too are bad. The choice of his comparison shows what he really thinks deep under his patina of anti-racism. Usually the 'go where you came from' remark is used by people from the right and is recognised as racist. (But mnaybe he was drunk again which is always a good excuse for racist remarks?)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:43 PM

wolfie, ken's one of the good guys......bit of left wing , politically correct bore - well quite a lot of one actually!

but theres no nastiness, no intention to be anything but a nice guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Ken Livingston's Nazi jibe to Jewish reporter
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:45 AM

I just love the fact that Ken has called the US ambassador to England a "cheap crook" for refusing to pay the congestion charge that every other road user in central London (even the UK government) pays.

Ken's rationale is that it is not a "tax" but the price of a commodity, and the ambassador pays for bananas if he buys them in a shop so why not his road use too.

I am inclined to agree.

Perhaps Ken could get some wheelclampers to clamp US embassy cars found stationary in the C-charge area if not having paid the charge? Perhaps some trigger happy wingnut (person with short hair and big ears) would then pull a gun - as happened in the US embassy once when I short-cut the empty zig-zag tape queuing lines by ducking under the tapes to get to the available staff at the counter.

Maybe Shrub would then send a gunboat up the Thames.

What is it with Americans? We gave them civilisation. Evidently we did not give them enough.