BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:33 AM

It is interesting to read here how the experience of hunting and killing wild animals (who don't shoot back) affects us differently. Many have said how experiences like this have prevented them from continuing to indulge in this for sporting pleasure.

When I was about 13 the thing was to have air pistols. If you could not afford these, the next best thing was a catapult. Forget target practice - the peer test was to see if you could kill other living things. After much stalking around and much time - I eventually managed to hit and kill a young blackbird. I was surprised to find that holding the still warm but lifeless body, filled me with no satisfaction - just sadness. I threw the catapult away....

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: kendall
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM

People can shoot back. Animals can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:57 PM

It is also human nature to undertake selfless tasks and brave deeds to help others and to save animals.

However, we can't use that side of human nature to excuse us when we do things we know we shouldn't and are perfectly aware there is no NEED for us to indulge in.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:25 PM

Damnit - it's human bloody nature. Just look at how we treat each other!?
Is it any wonder how we treat animals?
A lot of people who hunt are people who only buy organic meat and veg, and free-range eggs etc. A lot of antis live in the city and know nothing about hunting.

Why are people so bloody horrible to each other? Apparently deep down we're all just vicious selfish bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:09 AM

Where is there EVER - a need for cruelty to be inflicted?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:08 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Feb 05 - 12:45 PM

Aye, I am defending what you see as needless cruelty. I don't see it as needless cruelty. There we'll have to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:03 AM

Gervase - we are in agreement. I and MOST of the world would agree with you when you say.........

That's not to say that cruelty to animals is acceptable.

But despite this statement - you are still saying the chasing by dogs and the (eventual) terrible death of the fox - undertaken only for the sporting pleasure of some of the participants - IS a form of acceptable cruelty.

You may be able to accept and live with this strange double-standard -but happily, most of the world would prefer not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:53 AM

You got me there Giok! :-)
Sounds like a worthy plan to me!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:21 AM

Surely the knuckle dragger's judgement will be as sound as those who vote labour because they are in a trade union, or for any other party because their parents always voted for them. Then there's the housewife who votes for whomsoever has the nicest smile! Who's to say why people vote they way they do, or don't, I still think they should vote. I also think there should be a 'None of the above' box on the voting slip which if it got the most votes would mean that particular contest must be re-run with different candidates.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM

The thought of compulsory voting's a bit scary Giok - judging by some of the 'Erberts dragging their knuckles along the ground in our corner of the UK! Half of them can't even tie their shoelaces, how do you expect them to make a well-reasoned judgment at an election? We'd end up with the likes of Gareth Gates, David Beckham and Britney Spears as MPs! Mind you, they might do as well as the present incumbents!(LOL)
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 04:52 AM

If a government is elected with less than a 51% majority of all votes cast, and less than 50% of the electorate voted in that election, then in no way can the people be said to have 'spoken'. Until such times as verybody on the electoral register casts their vote you cannot say someone was elected by popular vote either. Voting should be compulsory, only then will an election be a true representation of the will of the people.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:05 PM

But Roger, where have the people spoken? When they took the vote, was I out of the room?
And the capital punishment issue is not a red herring - if you are to claim the mass of public opinion as an infallible guide to the morality of an action, you must accept all of the public's opinions; if it is the general will, then it is surely wrong to disagree!
Forgive me if I'm not speaking clearly and merely 'muddying the waters' (seems to be the phrase de jour), but I'm simply putting across my point of view and it seems to be instructive to use examples and comparisons to make the point. You're quite entitled to take the the opposite stance - I realise that your mind is already made up on the issue and that you are not going to change your opinion. Do you, somehow, think that I will yield to your arguments and change my mind?!
Essentially, we ain't getting anywhere. I posted at length to answer John's question, and I think I've said all I can on the matter. We don't agree, and there's an end to't.
But keep up the good work on the PELs - that's something we can agree on!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:21 PM

Songs about capital punishment

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

Or do italics mean irony?

They mean that it was quote that I agreed with - from weelittledrummer's post 03.54.

Gervase, If you or anyone else wishes to start a thread on the subject of capital punishment or anything else - I will be happy to express my view of it in that thread. I would rather like to concentrate here on the matter at hand. It is difficult to do this with all the rather smelly old 'crimson kippers' still being thrown around.

Inflicting cruelty for the sporting pleasure of a few - what the majority of people (not only in the UK) are being asked to support. It should not be too much of a surprise to you that your view is a minority one. I did not invoke anything - you we the one who both mentioned this and dismissed it.

It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.

I pointed out the obvious fact that whatever your low opinion of them - the people had ignored the 'muddied waters' and had clearly spoken on this issue - and expressed their low opinion upon the views of those who needed to inflict needless cruelty for their sporting fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:20 PM

Me too! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:15 PM

Inflicting Tony Blair on an unsuspecting world is extreme cruelty, and I for one think he should be culled. I can't promise not to enjoy it!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 01:11 PM

Man! you pro cruelty types can come up with more red herrings! What you say is tantamount to saying, hell, I have the Clap, I might as well have syph too!

It is simply this, and nothing more, traditional fox hunting is barbaric, cruel and damned uncivilized. It has NOTHING to do with any other type of cruelty so stop muddying the waters!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

Really? Lack of reverence for the democratic process? Arrogance? Crude dismissal? As they say dahn sarf, you're 'avin' a larf, ain't you?!?!
Or do italics mean irony?
By the way, Roger, you still haven't told us your thoughts on the majority view of capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:36 AM

Only the the animal lobby is stopping this government from culling badgers.A study in Ireland has proved conclusively that they carry TB. Yet when there was a programme of gassing badgers there was an outcry.

By the same token - human beings carry TB - should all human beings be gassed then?

If it was only the animal lobby that was preventing this - perhaps you should be grateful?

I still think the foxhunters could have won the debate, were it not for the nature of the beast. The sheer arrogance of the pro-hunting lobby; their crude dismissal of some people's genuine horror at the cruelty involved; their lack of reverence for the democratic process, it has all worked against them and it shines out from every post on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:31 AM

Culling Badgers where the need is proven I can go with Giok. But tormenting them and then bumping them off for 'fun' is deplorable. Same holds for foxes, deer, whatever. IMNAHO!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:16 AM

The only way the ban could finally be carried was by invoking the Parliament Act to prevent the UK's second chamber (the same chamber that was celebrated for voting against the PEL Bill, I seem to recall) from debating the issue.

There would I accept have been more than a little irony if the UK's second chamber had voted against the Licensing Act 2003 - for as the Bill was first introduced there - the Parliament Act would not have been able to have been used by the Government to force it through.

Sadly at the last moment - the Lib Dem peers decided to vote with the Government - so the Lords were not celebrated for voting against the Act as you wrongly state. It is a sad fact that they did not vote against it - for if they had - this poor piece of legislation Act would not have become law.....

The main difference however was that - unlike the Act's passage in the Commons - a number of sensible debates were held and measures introduced into this Act in the Lords - until they lost their nerve (or were misled) at the last moment. In this case - and up to that point - our Peers were correct and acting in the majority interest. In the matter of Hunting With Hounds - they were not doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:08 AM

Only the the animal lobby is stopping this government from culling badgers.A study in Ireland has proved conclusively that they carry TB. Yet when there was a programme of gassing badgers there was an outcry.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

Scallywag!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:12 AM

Well said Johnny! I'm glad I'm not the only one who welcomes the return of Badger baiting! Tally -ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 08:02 AM

Greg, I think the point you and many pro-hunters are either missing or conveniently ignoring isn't that it's necessarily the kill that is especially cruel, it's the method of reaching the point of killing that is so appalling.

If a farmer walks round the corner of his barn, sees a fox getting to work on his chicken-coop, and shoots it that's no problem for me, he's simply protecting his livestock. But if a band of blood-maddened horsemen with thirty or forty large dogs seek out a fox in its habitat and then chase it terrified over miles of countryside, and have the gall to claim that they're doing it for 'fun' (or even worse, as I heard some plummy-mouthed toff at the weekend claim, that they do it for the benefit of the foxes - what utter bollocks) then they must have a very perverted view of what constitutes fun.

What next? Is badger-baiting to make a welcome return? Following the logic of the hunt-supporters, maybe it should. Don't badgers carry TB or rabies or something? Dirty little bastards, let the dogs at 'em. That'll be fun and the badgers will be so grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 05:49 AM

Greg as you appear to care about this so much - perhaps you would answer my question first? Will you be supporting moves to legalise the inflicting this particular cruelty?

You, on the other hand, clearly think its passing was a Good Thing.

No I don't. I regret that it ever had to come to this and that it is very sad those few who think that inflicting any cruelty for their sporting enjoyment - could not have stopped this aspect - on their own accord - rather than deciding to drag everyone in to it and to get them to fight their battle for them. I am glad that everyone can now meet-up, dress-up and ride (or walk) together - without any laws being broken - as was demonstrated on Saturday. I think that peace will eventually break-out - if it is allowed to.......

So I think it is entirely legitimate to ask you what is so great about gassing foxes, hunting rabbits, and chasing foxes with dogs and then shooting them. Not to mention battery farming chickens.So, what's your answer?

Like most people here - I am not in favour of inflicting any cruelty at all - and most, if not all cruelty is needless. Killing is sometimes necessary and I have killed a lot of animals - but it is not something that I have ever found to be enjoyable and I have great suspicion about anyone who does - and anyone who defends the practice.

There are indeed lots of animal welfare and other issues to address and perhaps if you attend any of these meetings or protests - we will meet up at one and be able to address how best to tackle them? This is just one we can tick-off of a very long list - or are you going to campaign for chasing, terrifying, exhausting and eventually killing foxes with dogs - for sporting enjoyment - to be placed back on the list?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:49 AM

Shqambles: I have a pretty simple attitude. I've never hunted, never wanted to, never will. But I think this law, and more particularly the way it was passed, is very dangerous to the social fabric of the country, because it is irrational and hypocritical, and divisive: the criminal law needs the whole-hearted support of society.
You, on the other hand, clearly think its passing was a Good Thing. So I think it is entirely legitimate to ask you what is so great about gassing foxes, hunting rabbits, and chasing foxes with dogs and then shooting them. Not to mention battery farming chickens.So, what's your answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:47 AM

That's it in a nutshell Gervase. The reasons for banning it were selfish, and had nothing to do with concern for the fox.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:21 AM

Be careful when you invoke the will of 'the great mass of the people'. Opinion polls consistently show that a significant majority in the UK would vote to bring back capital punishment if they had the chance. Would you accept that decision if (unlike the ban on hunting) it was truly put before the court of public opinion for a 'just and informed decision' to be made?
As far as I can see, the people haven't spoken. There has been no referendum, and the issue was not even made explicit on the Labour Party's last two manifestoes. The only way the ban could finally be carried was by invoking the Parliament Act to prevent the UK's second chamber (the same chamber that was celebrated for voting against the PEL Bill, I seem to recall) from debating the issue. It was a cynical political act by a government anxious to curry favour with its disillusioned backbenchers and grassroots members and had nothing to do with cruelty.
However, on current form, that looks like the sort of democracy we're going to have to accept in future.

BTW: Following that official report, the government has decided that it is now perfectly acceptable to chase foxes for miles provided - like the deer which were the subject of the report - they are shot at the end of the chase.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:54 AM

I think that now fox hunting is illegal sooner or later the law will be enforced. there was probably a hardcore of people who insisted on their right to gob on the top floor of the bus, for a while after the law was passed.

I still think the foxhunters could have won the debate, were it not for the nature of the beast. The sheer arrogance of the pro-hunting lobby; their crude dismissal of some people's genuine horror at the cruelty involved; their lack of reverence for the democratic process, it has all worked against them and it shines out from every post on this subject.

If ever there was a case of a group of people being a victim of their own demeanour, this must surely be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 03:06 AM

This 'civilised' country had to order an official report to establish if chasing a deer for miles with dogs (for the fun of some of the participants) - had any adverse effects upon the animal.

As if there was really any question about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:56 AM

Well I've studied all these posts, and apparently the main thing wrong with hunting is the facts that some hunters wear red coats. Gassing is fine, shooting is fine, hunting rabbits is fine, battery farming of hens is fine: but hunting is unbelievably wicked and uncivilised because huntsmen(some of them) wear red coats.

No - as your eariler contribtion was at pains to point out - not all wear red-coats.

As this past weekend has proved that eveyone can have a great day-out without this cruel aspect - perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Greg, are you now going to be supporting moves to legalise the practice of chasing, terrifing, exhausting and eventually killing foxes with dogs, for the sporting pleasure of a few? If so perhaps you can explain the justification for inflicting this particular form of cruelty?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 02:23 AM

Well I've studied all these posts, and apparently the main thing wrong with hunting is the facts that some hunters wear red coats. Gassing is fine, shooting is fine, hunting rabbits is fine, battery farming of hens is fine: but hunting is unbelievably wicked and uncivilised because huntsmen(some of them) wear red coats.
And this is how we decide laws in England!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:41 PM

When Europeans first arrived in Australia they found an isolated pristine environment, perfectly in balance. Nothing needed to be culled.
So they introduced foxes.

Hunting for sport is the enjoyment of making something die. It can be excused or hidden or disguised with any number of tangential disclaimers (which may be valid in some other context), but the purpose of hunting is to kill something, and the purpose of hunting for sport is the enjoyment thereof.

(I guess I'm back in the hunt)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 09:05 PM

I've had a heart to heart talk with Winston. He apologized for yelling at me, and I apologized for throwing the vase at him. We spent much time talking about it. Then he surprised me.

He said, "Penelope, would you respect a man who let someone else control him?"

"No, Winston, I wouldn't," I replied. "But you are hardly a man who lets anyone else control him, so what is your point?"

"My point is simply this, my dear," he went on. "I firmly believe with all my heart that the fox hunt is a valuable British tradition and that the new law banning it is an unjust law, passed merely for cynical political gain by Tony Blair. I believe it is my sworn moral duty, in fact, to resist that law. Now, I understand that we don't agree on the moral question of the fox hunt...but, Penelope, I would not be being true to myself were I to let your opinion of the hunt...or anyone else's opinion...control my own free decision regarding whether or not to violate what is to me an unjust law. I would, in fact, be surrenduring my own identity as an independent Briton in the process and betraying my family's tradition going back 500 years...and then I would not be the man you married."

I hardly knew what to say. Before I could think what to say, he went on...

"But I know that you too, Penelope are a woman of your word and principle, and that is why I married you. Therefore, you must do your duty. If I do decide to illegally conduct a fox hunt, you must at once inform the legal authorities and let the law take its course. I will face the consequences. In this manner, you and I will both have stood up honestly for what we believe in, and neither one of us need compromise or deny our own right to be who we truly are nor the one lose respect for the other."

Well, I was quite stunned. On the one hand, I know that Winston simply wants to wangle his way into hunting foxes, but on the other hand, he had a point I could hardly refute. I took a deep breath.

"Very well, Winston," I said at last. "If you feel that way, then we both must do what we must do. But don't be rash, Winston. I could not bear the thought of seeing you incarcerated in some dank gaol on a diet of bread and water." (I was being a bit funny...)

"Never fear, my dear. I have faced worse things than that," he said, with a twinkle in his eye. "I once woke up and found my face within 3 inches of Bertie's discarded athletic socks at the fencing club..."

Well, we both burst out laughing at that, and have been getting along famously since. Still, I wonder just what he is up to. He's a sly rogue. Surely he's not going to go brazenly out and force me to get him arrested? And if so, then what? Well, I shall have to wait and see, shan't I?

Meanwhile, Winston has purchased two marvelous new horses and we've been out riding on them. The black stallion is named "Cutlass" and the dapple mare is "Raphaella". We rode like the wind down Prentice Lane together today. I am sure I can deal with whatever Winston has up his sleeve on this fox hunt business.

*PRW-J

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:45 PM

I've got more respect for a sheep-shagger, at least the sheep might enjoy it too.

I understand the sentiments but I am not too sure that I would quite 'go all the way' with that one. Not sure if the sheep even get asked - either before or after. Perhaps we could leave sheep alone too - unless they ask..........?

I am reminded of a old 'Playboy' cartoon. The chap has just finshed and is walking away and adjusting his trousers. The sheep says ........when will I see you again?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM

It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.

Civilised nation indeed. These are the words of an intelligent man and one probably far better educated than I am - who has just justified in debate - words to the effect that if a certain type of wild animal is going to be killed (because he has decided it is) there is nothing wrong with having a bit of sporting fun with the manner of its death.

A line of reasoning that made public executions the family fun day-out they once were.

I have come to the conclusion that far from it being a case of 'the great mass of the population' not caring or not knowng. These justifications - for the needless cruelty of chasing and killing foxes with dogs - are only made because 'the great mass of the population' have made a just and informed decision that prevents these few people from inflicting the creulty they think - because of their superior knowledge they have some right to inflict.

Ride (or walk) to hounds, dress-up as you wish and enjoy your social gatherings in the countryside by all means. I may even (try) to join your social groups. But please don't carry-on with the idea that the cruelty of chasing and killing a fox with dogs must play some part in all this.

The people have spoken. If you wish to change the law to allow this form of creulty to be inflicted - please be honest and present the arguement that it is only for your sporting fun. Please don't frighten and involve the many people (with real problems) who live and work in the country in any more bogus and well-funded campaigns.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:41 PM

It makes me wonder how England ever got the reputation of a civilized country.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Tam the man
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 02:56 PM

I've never seen a farmer ride a bicycle and then they say that they are Poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,SJ
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:33 AM

Ted, you're a rascal! Stop it at once or I'll ban you from wearing the smoking-jacket!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 10:28 AM

To return to the argument (at the risk of boring the rest of the world into catatonia), if you accept that foxes are going to be killed, what is wrong with using another species to do it cleanly and quickly?

Thank for 'cutting the the chase' and returning to the single issue now at stake here. As it is generally agreed that this cruel method has no appreciable statistical effect on fox populations - that fox - on that day - is only going to be chased, terrified, exhusted and eventually killed by dogs for one reason - because you have decided that to kill this wild animal in this cruel manner is sporting fun. Two types of animal - one wild and one domesticated are being used by you - only to provide your sporting fun.

As this past weekend has proved that eveyone can have a great day-out without this cruel aspect - perhaps someone would explain why they would wish to churn out the same old rubbish - in order to 'muddy the waters' to support and defend the continuation of this particular cruel practice?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:25 AM

200! Tally ho! Let's hope the Tories bring it back in the next Parliament!

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:24 AM

199

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:22 AM

Why do I feel the need to defend it? Because it's something I value and it's under attack.

I would try and help, but you're doing a far better job than I could.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:07 AM

'Cleanly and quickly' after chasing it, hugely outnumbered and driven mad by fear, to the point of exhaustion so it's unable to defend itself. Add to that the horde of primitives in red jackets blowing horns and shouting, driven temporarily mad by their blood-lust, and the number of members of the lower social orders who seek to inflate their sense of own-importance by associating with the gentry, and you've got a pretty appalling and disgusting spectacle.

I've got more respect for a sheep-shagger, at least the sheep might enjoy it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 06:24 AM

Why do I feel the need to defend it? Because it's something I value and it's under attack. One could ask why you (rightly in my view) feel the need to campaign against changes in the PEL system, or others campaign to preserve historic buildings and ancient woodland. It's because the great mass of the population either doesn't care or doesn't know enough about an issue to make an informed decision, so it's up to those who do know and care to stand up and debate the issue.
To return to the argument (at the risk of boring the rest of the world into catatonia), if you accept that foxes are going to be killed, what is wrong with using another species to do it cleanly and quickly? From my own experience, it is a lot less cruel than the alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:32 AM

I would take this opportunity to give fair warning to anyone who might contemplate 'strolling along the canal side and kicking every angler into the water' Unless you like the ideaa of wearing maggots or various other horrible smelly things in their hair I would suggest not doing it, it would also help if you are able to swim. As I said before angling is the biggest participation sport in the UK, and is prdominently a 'working mans' sport, so you will get no support from the Tony Banks's of this world should you try to get it banned, as it would cost the "Labour" [Phtooey] party too many votes. Also apart from coarse fishing where the majority of fish are put back, many people like myself only fish for the pot. Even what we now call coarse fish were once eaten, Tench and Carp being kept in monastery stew ponds for the Friday feast, and Pike is very nice to eat, as is Perch albeit bony. So as far as banning angling is concerned forget it, anyway "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" as a certain man with a greenish tinge was known to say.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:12 AM

Roger, I said it was not so very important in the scheme of things because it isn't. Just as being able to make music in public places isn't so very important, or many of the 'rights' that we cherish, when placed alongside war, genocide, induced famine and poverty and the abuse of children.

Gervase, this is exactly what I refer to as 'muddying the waters'. Not choosing to undertake, excuse or minimise any needless creulty - is a start.

When you are faced with the simple choice about whether to defend this particular needless creulty - (for a few people to obtain sporting pleasure by chasing and killing a fox with hounds) - even as you state that you don't consider its continuation to be 'so very important in the scheme of things - it is still seemingly important enough for you to choose to defend it here or critise others who do object to THIS particular cruel practice - why?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:08 AM

Thanks for your insights Gervase, but this is going nowhere. I resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting banned in England/Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 03:27 AM

Roger, I said it was not so very important in the scheme of things because it isn't. Just as being able to make music in public places isn't so very important, or many of the 'rights' that we cherish, when placed alongside war, genocide, induced famine and poverty and the abuse of children.
As for a celebration of needless killing, that's a trickier one. I won't rehash the 'needless' argument, but the celebration issue has to be addressed. An alternative view would be to see the death of a creature as little more than the disposal of a piece of garbage; a perfunctory act of no more significance than flushing the lavatory.
What would that say about our views of life and death? In my experience, those who hunt (with hounds or with guns) are more attuned to the complex relationships between species and the cycle of life and death than those who don't. As such, as I explained earlier, death is not 'celebrated', but it is acknowledged far more than by those who prefer to have it carried out anonymously - for those who prefer not to see the connection between living creatures and the stuff they buy in the shops.
That's why I have respect for vegans, because they do make that connection and take a stand accordingly. Those who protest at foxhunting and yet do nothing about the real and systematic cruelty that underpins so much of our comfortable lives are simply being woolly minded at best, and ignorant and socially-divisive at worst.
For most people who argue against hunting it does seem to boil down to a perception of 'toffs on horseback' and an idealised continuation of old class struggles (I wonder what they would have said to Engels, who loved hunting). If they really thought otherwise, every time they took a stroll down the canalside they'd be kicking every angler into the water.